From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Oct 3 12:05:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA32393 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:05:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA12709 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:02:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:02:13 -0500 Message-Id: <200010031702.MAA12709@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1837 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, October 3 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1837 In this digest: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Quickly mutating from Re: IN> Artifact Question Re: IN> Rules clarification: Mercurian of Laurence Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Updates (new stuff in the mix, too!) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel IN> Some New Servitor Attunements (completely, absolutely, unofficial) Re: IN> Updates (new stuff in the mix, too!) Re: IN> Some New Servitor Attunements (completely, absolutely, unofficial) Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) Re: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) Re: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) Re: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) IN> Re: Celestial names Re: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) Re: IN> Re: Celestial names ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:37:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 10:58:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel >Here is Othniel, Angel of Time, and its list of >Songs. Well done. Different focus than what I had in mind, but very nice. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 18:14:09 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel > Processional -- cost 3, disturbance 10. [...] > Processional moves the singer, plus as much cargo as they can > personally carry, to a specified point in the future. Hmmm, ideas... a bunch of Servitors of Time (the players) decide to travel to some point in the future (or are sent) for some reason (chasing some bad guy, whatever). Say 10 years in the future, for example. Maybe even less. When they get there, some things have changed. First thing they notice is the Armaggedon has taken place. Second thing is that Hell won. Describe the Armaggedon the way you picture it, but try to emphasize on angels and blessed souls being tortured, earth being a giant slave market ruled by demons and Hellbounds, etc. Then let the players decide wether they let it happen (the way history should be), or try to go back in the present and prevent it. If you really like the athmosphere, destroy your players' only way back and let them start up some kind of Resistance... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:16:10 -0400 (EDT) From: ydobyns@princeton.edu Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Earl Wajenberg wrote: [...] > As Archangel of Destiny, Yves knows ALL the POSSIBLE futures. As Angel > of Time, Othniel knows SOME of the ACTUAL future, and is the patron of If there is an "actual" future, it is the one and only "possible" future as well -- because the actual future is what will happen, no matter what, and no deviation from it is possible. If this were the case then Yves would know it. On the other hand, the "actual" future might include only certain specific events that are inevitable regardless of attempts at intervention (e.g. the giant earthquake that smashes California in 2008) while the rest of the future remains subject to individual choices; in which case, Othniel is aware of those "chunks" of definite and inevitable future history, while Yves can see how the rest of the malleable future flows in and out of them. York Dobyns ydobyns@princeton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:48:24 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel From: "Laurent" > > Second thing is that Hell won. Describe the > Armaggedon the way you picture it, but try to emphasize on angels and > blessed souls being tortured, earth being a giant slave market ruled by > demons and Hellbounds, etc. Then let the players decide wether they let it > happen (the way history should be), or try to go back in the present and > prevent it. This was the same type of concept used in the second adventure my GM ran, as it happens. The only major difference was that instead of sending our group into the future, Hell had sent a team of demons into the past to prevent the birth of Jesus by using a nuclear bomb to destroy Jerusalem. It was a fun adventure, especially for me because my Malakite wound up being responsible for its own creation... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:54:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Quickly mutating from Re: IN> Artifact Question Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:09:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question See above. >>Would a war for the Marches (or an assault on >>Heaven/Hell) really be fought with flaming sword->>analogues, or flaming high-tech military >>hardware-analogues? >GM's option. Laurencians might have the swords, while >Michaelites had the rocket launchers... Naah. Give Stoneys the swords (until they can pry away the flamethrowers from the Gabrielites*); the Laurencians want the TANKS. Closest thing you'll find to cavalry in the modern era. :) I really could continue this digression further, but I've no doubt raised enough hackles as it is, so I'll just leave you with the observation that Malakim of Creation make wonderful guerrilla fighters (something that Dominic should really, really take into account as he plans the treason trial)... Moegiel Kyriotate of Destiny in Service to Creation ("You drank last beer. Hulk Smash: no, wait, new bestest buddy made more. You lucky, lucky, lucky.") *Well, a flamethrower isn't exactly a MISSILE weapon, is it? There's a little wriggle room in the requirements. ;) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:18:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Rules clarification: Mercurian of Laurence At 6:32 PM +0100 10/1/00, John Dallman wrote: >A Mercurian of Laurence gets his Corporeal Forces as a bonus to Dodge; I >wondered if how that applied in Celestial combat. My referee - Rhodri >James - reckons since it's playable if you just read the rule and apply it >to Celestial combat, it isn't broken and there's no need to fix it. > >The character's quite happy about this; I wondered if anyone else had ever >made a ruling on the issue? (I could see it either way -- Corp Forces _always_ as the bonus, or Applicable Forces as per realm. CorpForces is easier to remember, though. So that's my ruling: ask the GM. O:> Oh, yeah, I do also think there is always _some_ bonus -- it's kind of boring otherwise.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 14:15:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Laurent wrote: > Then let the players decide wether they let it happen (the way > history should be), or try to go back in the present and > prevent it. You are, then, running a game with mutable history. Each to their taste, of course. If I had celestial time-travelers encounter an apparent loss of Armageddon, I would let them be stricken by dread in the knowledge that time is immutable, and then throw them some scrap of torturing hope, e.g. that what they saw was just what Dispensationalists call "the Tribulation," a seven-year period of time when Hell is ascendant on Earth, just before Jesus comes riding down out of the Higher Heavens with the 144,000 at his back. So, then they go back to the present. Do they keep quiet about it all, so as not to demoralize Heaven and spoil what good times are left, or do they set to work making sure that Dispensational eschatology turns out to have been the right one? York Dobyns wrote: > If there is an "actual" future, it is the one and only "possible" > future as well -- because the actual future is what will happen, > no matter what, and no deviation from it is possible. This is where it all gets very philosophical. How real is a possibility? How real is one that got eliminated? Napoleon lost at Waterloo, but was there a real possibility of his winning, that got destroyed? Determinism/predestination and freedom are a classic can of philosophical and theological worms. The GM can either proclaim for themselves or leave the characters to wrangle about it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 13:42:46 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Determinism/predestination and freedom are > a classic can of philosophical and theological worms. The GM > can either proclaim for themselves or leave the characters to > wrangle about it. Oh yes. Try wrapping your mind around the orthodox Muslim viewpoint, which is that free will is impossible because that would imply that individual events can occur without God's foreknowledge and will. Sure makes Khalid more interesting, albeit harder to fathom... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:26:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) > I prefer immutable history -- with mutable PC >knowledge. The way I usually run it, time travel is >possible but causality violations are not. I've played time travel games where that is true: it's fun ... if you're a human, and don't have the inside scoop about what's _really_ going on. The model for my temporal stuff I'm working on (and I am, now. Thanks, everybody) will probably go more towards a weaving metaphor than the Symphony for describing the universe: the outline and broad picture is fixed, but individual strands can be altered. Or something. It'll have Minor Choirs, weird artifacts and Vapula in it, which is really the important thing. :) >the PC's actions in the past may even be necessary >in order for the history that they know to occur. >Now, wouldn't it be a cruel (insert maniacal >laugh here) twist of fate if Raphael's death could've >been avoided if not for the screw-ups of PC angels? Nasty, nasty, nasty. Of course, it's giving me an idea. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 18:48:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Updates (new stuff in the mix, too!) - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > First, my entry in the Great Minor Choir/Band review (Belial's): On the Lahatim: there is no shade of green that adequately expresses my envy. Well done as usual, Moe. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 18:51:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Wait a minute... Othniel, Angel of Time? That wouldn't be a reference to Othniel Marsh, would it? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 18:53:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) - --- Laurent wrote: > Michael wrote: > > I came up with some Songs of Time for my campaign, but > > they worked differently. As I recall, I had the Corporeal Song > > accelerating or decelerating time (player's choice), the Ethereal > Song > > allowing limited precognition and the Celestial Song doing stasis. > I > > restricted the knowledge of all three versions to Yves and Kronos > only, > however. > > I'd love to see them. No problem. I'll post them to the list as soon as I get my *@#$%! computer working again (too much stuff trapped on my hard drive before backup floppies were made, curse it). ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 18:59:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Othniel, Angel of Time > Elohite Servitor of Destiny Nice. I especially like the use of musical terms -- very appropriate for time-based powers. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:52:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Some New Servitor Attunements (completely, absolutely, unofficial) I should say, in passing, that the existence of the below is not indicative of anything except that I was stuck on the train this evening and scribbled something together. I only WISH that I had gotten tapped to do the writeup in question*. :) http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/novalis/SA.htm On another note, I did add a couple of angels to the Servitors page (Carlos and Aphra, split off from that angel of Troubadours I did a while back). I got tired of seeing them on my computer screen, pouting that I wasn't finishing them up. :) As always, hope y'all like. Moe *And no, I don't know who's doing it, either. Heck, I don't even know if it's gonna be done. :| ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 01:12:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Updates (new stuff in the mix, too!) On Sun, 1 Oct 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/servitors/Bronwen.htm > > Yeah, yeah, I know: she's a tad odd, and more > plausable at either end of the scale than in the > middle. Such is life. :) Damn good idea. Consider her stolen. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Though they broke my legs / They gave me a crutch to walk / Laws to guide me / And a crutch to walk. / Amen. -- Chumbawamba, "Today's Sermon" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 01:25:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Some New Servitor Attunements (completely, absolutely, unofficial) One question. The Mind the Thorns attunement says: "An attacker must make a Perception Roll at -4 or reconsider the attack. Celestials roll at +4." Does that mean Celestials roll Perception, or Perception+4? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! 'Frop (frop) n. [ATL Habafropzipulous] The only thing that can drop you into the wading pool section of your own soul while the lifeguard's body drips blood from the diving board into the water, creating a fractal pattern dictated by an equation which has been built into your DNA code since life began. Watch the pattern and learn next week's winning Lotto numbers. [Webster-Dobbs, 3rd ed.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 09:37:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention) Michael Walton wrote: > Wait a minute... Othniel, Angel of Time? That wouldn't be a > reference to Othniel Marsh, would it? I don't even know who Othniel Marsh is. I was just perusing a list of Old Testament names with "-el" and "-iah" and "-jah" endings (the IN pages at SJGames.com give pointers to such things) and ran across "Othniel" which was listed as meaning "Hour of God." Time-travel is an interest of mine, so that struck me as a good name for an Angel of Time. > I especially like the use of musical terms -- very appropriate > for time-based powers. Thank you. But after all, given the musical metaphor that permeates IN, it's a natural result. (It also gave me a chance to re-use some names for time-magic spells. I wanted to use them for the fantasy section of "Time Riders" (which I wrote for Iron Crown Enterprises), but the editor didn't like them and changed the names. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:19:29 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) > and ran across "Othniel" which was listed as meaning "Hour of God." > Time-travel is an interest of mine, so that struck me as a good > name for an Angel of Time. I wonder, are Celestials named after the Word they serve? For example, would a Celestial's name be "Hour of God" because it got the Word of Time, or will the angel receive the Word of Time because its name is Othniel? Or is it just a huge coincidence that Celestials' names quite often match their Word? Note, I'm only using Othniel as an example. It's a very common thing (e.g. Michael, Raphael, etc). Anybody ever thought about writing up Gradiel ("Might Of God") Angel of Love*?? If there is a link, could it be used say, by sorcerers, to discover the real name of a Celestial? I'm not sure what it would be used for, but there must be some possibilities... Laurent. * Or anything sweet and gentle that doesn't have anything to do with Might. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 10:23:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) Laurent wrote: > I wonder, are Celestials named after the Word they serve? In canon literality, the language of Heaven is supposed to be a mystical music that cannot lie, and Helltongue is supposed to be a cacophanous opposite, so I'd suppose that we never see the REAL name of a celestial in its native tongue; I'd suppose that the names given are noms de guerre / de plume / de opera used among celestials on Earth. In that case, it would be natural to adopt names reflecting the Word you serve. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:50:46 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) >From: "Laurent" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) >Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:19:29 +0100 > > > and ran across "Othniel" which was listed as meaning "Hour of God." > > Time-travel is an interest of mine, so that struck me as a good > > name for an Angel of Time. > >I wonder, are Celestials named after the Word they serve? >For example, would a Celestial's name be "Hour of God" because it got the >Word of Time, or will the angel receive the Word of Time because its name >is >Othniel? Or is it just a huge coincidence that Celestials' names quite >often >match their Word? >Note, I'm only using Othniel as an example. It's a very common thing (e.g. >Michael, Raphael, etc). > >Anybody ever thought about writing up Gradiel ("Might Of God") Angel of >Love*?? Gabriel means something very similar to 'might of God' IIRC. Might also be that a lot of these names are honorifics, or that the angel changed its name when it was assigned the Word. Could be a little freaky if the previous owner died or Fell, not least for Sorcerors :) In fact, it'd probably amuse Kobal to name a lot of minor imps after 'well-known' demons, just to annoy Kronos. jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 11:00:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) Do celestials have "True Names" in the IN setting? How about humans or ethereals? What makes a name the "true" one? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:31:26 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Re: Celestial names Jo > Gabriel means something very similar to 'might of God' IIRC. "God is my Strength", I think. Jo > Might also be that a lot of these names are honorifics, or that the angel changed its name when it was assigned the Word. Earl > I'd suppose that the names given are noms de guerre / de plume / de opera used among celestials on Earth. Earl > In that case, it would be natural to adopt names reflecting the Word you serve. So these wouldn't be the Celestials' real names, and therefore couldn't be used for sorcery rituals, right? And would there be a definite list of names suitable for a specific Word? Would a fallen angel automatically change its name from *-el to something else? Earl > I'd suppose that we never see the REAL name of a celestial in its native tongue Earl > What makes a name the "true" one? If true names only exists in Celestial tongue, and sorcery rituals require the real name of a Celestial, how do human sorcerers do? Of course, if no sorcery ritual requires a true name, and this is only the product of my imagination and advanced senility, this whole conversation becomes pointless... I'll check my books again tonight. Earl > Do celestials have "True Names" in the IN setting? Earl > How about humans or ethereals? I think it is canon that Celestial have true names that they keep secret. It also says that humans' true names are their civil names, IIRC. Can't remember anything about ethereals, though... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 11:37:17 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: Celestial names (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel) - --On Tuesday, October 3, 2000 2:50 PM +0000 Jo Hart wrote: > In fact, it'd probably amuse Kobal to name a lot of minor imps > after 'well-known' demons, just to annoy Kronos. And ensure a life expectancy that could be measured on a stopwatch. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:01:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: Celestial names On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Laurent wrote: > So these wouldn't be the Celestials' real names, and therefore couldn't be > used for sorcery rituals, right? And would there be a definite list of names > suitable for a specific Word? Would a fallen angel automatically change its > name from *-el to something else? Habbalah wouldn't; after all, *they're* still angels. > If true names only exists in Celestial tongue, and sorcery rituals require > the real name of a Celestial, how do human sorcerers do? Celestial can't be spoken in the Corporeal plane, but I believe that Helltongue can. Perhaps this is why sorcerers can summon demons but not angels. Matt ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1837 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.