From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 5 13:19:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21504 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:19:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA25916 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:17:58 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:17:58 -0500 Message-Id: <200010051817.NAA25916@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1840 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1840 In this digest: Re: IN> The Word of Compassion IN> How would Lilith react? IN> Re: Compassion IN> How would Lilith react? Re: IN> The Word of Compassion IN> How would Lilith react? Re: IN> The Word of Compassion IN> Demon of Compassion Re: IN> Othniel, Jean, Vapula, Dominic, and Laurence Re: IN> The Word of Compassion Re: IN> Demon of Compassion Re: IN> Morilim Re: IN> Morilim Re: IN> Othniel, Jean, Vapula, Dominic, and Laurence IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom Re: IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom Re: IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom Re: IN> Artifact Question Re: IN> Artifact Question Re: IN> Artifact Question IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions Re: IN> Artifact Question Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions Re: IN> Morilim Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 16:37:50 NZDT From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> The Word of Compassion >For reasons clear to a few people on this list, I am herein reminded of the >opening >verse of the Leonard Cohen tune, 'Closing Time': > >"Oh, we're drinkin' and we're dancin' >And the place is really happenin' >And the Johnny Walker Wisdom's running high. >And my very sweet companion, >She's the Angel of Compassion, >She's rubbing half the world against her thigh..." > >So, yeah, I could see a Fallen Angel of Compassion, surely. Yup, a Habbalah in fact, Compassion being an excellent Word for a Habbalah! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:57:30 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> How would Lilith react? >I assume this is a character trait you're referring to, not a general >Seraphim's trait. On the countary he is much better than most seraphs at this whole "human culture" thing. However unfortunately I traded it off for the equally deterential to your social standing for "passionate about his beliefs". This most holy is the type who has equal comments for everyone in Heaven. Unfortunately unlike Dominic he loves everybody too so it's just awkward, he's also usually extremely polite too. >I would run a 111 somewhat like yours, but a 666 I would run as >Lilith considering for a second, utterly rejecting it, and deciding >that the impertinence warranted a Geas/6 for her time, with the >Seraph getting no Will Roll whatsoever. Yeah true. You can't expect the war to be decided on a dice roll but the idea something hasn't been dismissed out of hand is very Godlike as I picture him. As for that....eeesh. "So I understand you think I enslave people to make freedom...wellllll guess what today you were right. Your going to go assasinate the President of the United States and get rid of this whole legal plan he's going to make.....just as a note your going to be doing it where you can be found easily afterwards too honey. Thanks. Bye." >But then, I'm *mean* with Infernal Interventions. And Divine ones, >only on the other side. Ahhhhh your one of those Referees. >I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and >extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, >not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Ahhh sorry. GOD HEAL YOU! *casts song of healing through net* Rolls 6.. 6... 6... Oops. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 00:05:13 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: Compassion > What if the Buddhists really did believe that this guy was in fact the > Buddha of Compassion, in a different form? Could get really interesting, since the Dali Lama's supposed to be the reincarnation of the Buddha of Compassion (or maybe just *an* incarnation, Vajrayana Buddhism confuses me). To be the Devils's Advocate here, why not just make the guy BE the Buddha of Compassion. That's more interesting yet. Mortals know about the existence of Michael, why not this guy too? To get even more interesting, in China, the *guy* would actually be female :) Long story, but when Buddhism came to China, the Buddha of Compassion became Guanyin, the Chinese Goddess of Mercy (legend has it that this was because the Chinese were confused by the Buddha's large breasts and thought he was female). Either way, I think going with a Buddhist angel would be undoubtably more interesting. It would be something the players wouldn't be expecting and could lead to all sorts of other things. Speaking of non-Christian angels, I was wondering if, for example, all the Buddhist or Daoist Word-bound would have a kind of understood alliance in Heaven, being the minority. It wouldn't be like they would set themselves apart from everyone else, but there would just be a kind of understanding that their servitors should try to help each other whenever possible. Almost an Asian Angels Association. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:03:41 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> How would Lilith react? >> Besides, consider the Aura of Power that most Superiors have. Would >> your character really get smartmouthed in the face of that? > >These are *PCs* we're talking about. When was the last time you saw >one act prudently, intelligently or cautiously? If you have Lilith >show up, the odds approach unity that someone will crack wise about >her being a quisling traitor to humanity who has aided in the >degradation and torment of billions of her fellow humans. I blame this on *PC God syndrome* basically it falls under the old D&D line that everyone wants to be the hero of reality and one of the reasons that we play RPGs is because they provide the chances to affect events on such a grand scale. Theres a *CHANCE* your PCs were congenial to Lucifer when he showed up in Night Music as an Angel maybe because of sheer terror...however underneath some of them...there was just an itching desire to backstab the guy or tell him "REPENT! THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND!" Lucifer of course which replies. "Yes it is isn't it?" And smokes the PC's vessel sending him up to his heart. Face it, there isn't an angel/demon who doesn't want to change the face of the war....yet In Nomine is really a game about VERY UNCHANGEABLE BEINGS WHO HAVE SURVIVED THIS LONG THE WAY THEY ARE FOR A REASON....and it's the "little" miracles that are no less important Nybbas's redemption Still...at the end of a campaign there was nothing more enjoyable than knowing because of your actions Jormangurr was destroyed, False Armaggeddon was adverted, Khalid was redemeed and good old Magog the Destroyer got burned for good because of you. >And then when she zots the PC out of existence, his or her player will >give you a bewildered look and ask, "What'd I say?" Sadly Lilith can subvert the Superior cannot instantally soul-kill a Celestial quite easily. "Go summon Asmodeus at that Satanic Church in Celestial form." and the like. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:26:43 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Word of Compassion At 4:37 PM -0400 10/5/00, Alex Liddell wrote: > >Yup, a Habbalah in fact, Compassion being an excellent Word for a Habbalah! I'd say Balseraph of Factions. - -- I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:17:43 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> How would Lilith react? >(IMC, she's more often short, lightly tanned, and with black hair that >has copper highlights when the sun catches it. But green eyes, yes. >Always green eyes. Hehe that does make a certain ammount of sense. I frankly always pictured Lilith Dark haired myself but she took on Nicole Kidman dark red hair (ala Pratical Magic) when I saw it was pratically universal in her portrayal online as a redhead with greeneyes. Dark haired just has a sort of more primal Garden of Edeny feel....still Paradise Lost had Eve a blonde so eh. >And it always makes people uneasy looking at her, because they WANT >to remember a six-foot-plus amazon and every time they actually notice >how tall she is... she's _short_.) The better to geas you with my dear. >Well, if he's trying to be serious about it, she might -- depending on >the GM's inclination and any reaction rolls -- pat the poor fool on >the head, suggest that if he wants to discuss it, her time is valuable, >and go on. Maybe the fact he honestly comments before how she's looking wonderful might help...eesh. Isaiah is a very polite seraphim and the only reason I'm bringing it up is because the nature of freedom is likely to come up during the meeting. >But were I GM, you'd better do the best job of desperately concerned >sincerity in the world... I mean, how many times has she heard such >things from angels? There's gotta be a hot button there. A wise decision and it's always been my opinion Lilith makes information just as much as geas (almost really...they're mainly what she trades them for) her stock and trade. She's a very vain thing mainly out of insecurity IMHO....and WELL FOUNDED insecurity I might add. She thus knows EVERYTHING that's ever been said about her in Heaven. She likes sincere compliments (which are rare enough in Hell but much better from Heaven) but I think she's got an awfully thick skin to Heaven's opinions...and her spite is lethal. Perhaps by refusal a "favor" for the next angel she meets. Never forgive...never forget. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:43:31 NZDT From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> The Word of Compassion >>Yup, a Habbalah in fact, Compassion being an excellent Word for a >>Habbalah! > >I'd say Balseraph of Factions. Anything that allows the Demon to lie to himself/herself about what he/she is actually doing. Balseraph being good at faking Compassion, and Habbalah good at being compassionate but driving the victim deeper and deeper into sorrow with her Resonance. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:33:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> Demon of Compassion On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I'm tempted to see if someone wants to do another Iron Chef In Nomine > challenge, on the theme ingrediant "Demon of Compassion...." I'm up to the challenge, I think... PS: Oh sure, you're all thinking "Habbalite", right? Nawwww... Setmuree, Free Lilim Demon of Compassion Corporeal Forces: 2 (Str 3, Agi 5) Ethereal Forces: 4 (Int 10, Pre 6) Celestial Forces: 5 (Wil 9, Per 11) Suggested Word Forces: 8 * Vessel: Human Female/4 (Charisma +2) Role: "Sally Gillian", Activist (Role/4, Status/4) Skills: Detect Lies/1, Dodge/3, Driving/1, Emote/6, Fast-Talk/5, Knowledge (Law/4), Lockpicking/1, Lying/6, Move Silently/2, Savior-Faire/1 Songs: Charm (Celestial/3), Deception (Ethereal/2), Empathy (Corporeal/2, Ethereal/4, Celestial/3), Motion (Celestial/2), Opening (All/5), Sensation (Ethereal/5), Solace (Ethereal/3) Attunements: Demon of Compassion (see below), Lilim of Fate Discords: 7 Geas/3 and 1 Geas/6, owed to Lilith As the Demon of Compassion, Setmuree can incite feelings of compassion in people, even towards apparently undeserving subjects, with a heart-filled speech or written article. Anyone hearing or reading her words can roll against Intelligence or Willpower (whichever is higher) to avoid this, otherwise they'll find themselves feeling compassion towards the subject of her words. (This is much milder than the feelings a Habbalite can "inspire", but lasts until the subject comes across a reason not to feel compassionate towards the subject.) "Don't you see? *He* isn't responsible for those murders! It's the uncaring attitude of society that *drove* him to it!" No matter how atrocious the murder... no matter how horrific the rape... no matter how unrepentant the psychotic behind it all... there's always a voice in the crowd, claiming that it isn't *really* the fault of the criminal, and that everything will resolve itself into a perfect happy ending if we can just show them some love and forgive them. And set them free, of course. That voice, more often than not, belongs to Setmuree. And Lilith likes this. Since her choice of careers back in 1780, Setmuree has helped get more violent criminals out of prisons, and back onto the street, than the best team of defense lawyers in the world could. You see, she doesn't try to win their cases for them. Instead, she turns to mob justice. Politicians have always caved in to whatever the masses desire, and the masses have always been easy to turn in the direction that Setmuree desires. With the advent of the Media, she's found it easier than ever; instead of a soapbox in the middle of a street, she can start newsgroups and arrange appearances on talk shows, dedicated to "raising public awareness of how this poor man/woman/group has been wronged in a horrible miscarriage of justice". Lilith was happy to sponsor Setmuree for her Word... she even threw in one of her special songs for "free". (It was all included in that Geas/6.) Kronos took notice, as well. It seemed that for every "example case" of his who was released back onto the streets, dozens more became inspired by the thought that they could do what they wished without consequences... not to mention the fact that 99% of these murderers and molesters just went right back to business as usual. In a long-term ploy to recruit her over to his side, Kronos offered Setmuree his attunement. She understands the reason for it, and has been giving serious thought to the matter. Setmuree doesn't care if you drowned your two little boys because you wanted more spare time, or if you beat your wife into a pulp every night, or if you've been raping your niece every time your brother brings her over to spend the night. You're still a *person*, and people should *care* about you. They certainly shouldn't try to hurt you, or lock you up! After all, what does that really *solve*? It just makes you unhappier and keeps you from really learning from your mistakes. If we just could learn to love these people more, and show them how much we care, they'd be right as rain! So let's get them back into society where they belong, okay? One viscious criminal at a time, Setmuree is serving Hell faithfully. She has bigger plans, of course, but is building up to them slowly. She fears Saminga, as he hasn't made his feelings toward her known, one way or the other. But eventually, she plans to bring the warm feelings of compassion into everyone's hearts when they think about the Nazi party of WWII. Sure, they did some things that may seem bad on the surface, but they were really good people with kind motives who have, for the most part, been given a bad rap. Yes, she knows. This one will take a LOT of work. But it's one of the few projects that both Kronos and Kobal might both smile at, and that's saying something. * Yes, 8 Word Forces for the aspect of Compassion that she is bound to. Fortunately, it's a relatively weak demonic Word when compared to the angelic equivalent. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Want to hold up a bank in Latin? "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam." (I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 06:46:25 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Othniel, Jean, Vapula, Dominic, and Laurence > >Nasty. Of course, seeing as Vapula's a Habbalite, I >could see him wanting to examine previous examples of >Divine manifestations on earth, up close and personal >(not to mention down to their component atoms I'd have thought the temptation to appear just before the Creation, so as to do it 'better' -- or at least provide a 278 page design document to provide a creation guide -- would be quite strong :) jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 06:11:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> The Word of Compassion Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:07:21 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Word of Compassion >Oh, never say obviously divine. It's never >*obviously* divine. > >I'm tempted to see if someone wants to do another >Iron Chef In Nomine challenge, on the theme >ingrediant "Demon of Compassion...." That's a hard one. I mean, how can you warp a Word like tha... ... Hmmmm. Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:34:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Compassion According to Kabbalism, to the meager degree I understand it, creation results from the interplay of the principles of Severity and Mildness, and evil results from excess Severity -- but I've always thought that imbalance the other way would be just as bad, and Setmuree is a good thought-experiment illustrating that idea. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:37:11 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Morilim The only problem I have with Morilim having *no* celestial forces is that, then, they aren't really anybody. Their a peculiar class of Remnants, and like Remnants, totally lack will or consciousness. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: ydobyns@princeton.edu Subject: Re: IN> Morilim On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > The only problem I have with Morilim having *no* celestial > forces is that, then, they aren't really anybody. Their > a peculiar class of Remnants, and like Remnants, totally > lack will or consciousness. Remnants lack will, but they *don't* lack consciousness; that's one of the things so horrifying about them. At least according to the canon interpretation, "mind", consciousness, self-awareness, are functions of ethereal Forces, not celestial. Lack of Celestial forces doesn't mean you're not aware of yourself -- it just means that, when (or, for a celestial Remnant, *if*) your body dies, that awareness goes out like a blown candle. York Dobyns ydobyns@princeton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:55:40 -0400 (EDT) From: ydobyns@princeton.edu Subject: Re: IN> Othniel, Jean, Vapula, Dominic, and Laurence On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Jo Hart wrote: [...] > I'd have thought the temptation to appear just before the Creation, so as to > do it 'better' -- or at least provide a 278 page design document to provide > a creation guide -- would be quite strong :) Trouble is, neither a time machine nor any other mode of time travel can get to "before" the Creation, for the same reason that a train can't travel to a place the tracks don't reach. One of the extremely few issues on which Saint Augustine and Steven Hawking agree, so it's probably a valid assumption, even in In Nomine :-). York Dobyns ydobyns@princeton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:28:55 GMT From: daiv@cruzio.com Subject: IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom My theory is thus (1): Lilith is the only source of Lilim. Therefore, by virtue of having the monopoly, she has a valuable resource. Anyone can make any other Band of demon (whether or not she can create anything else escapes my recollection of Cannon, off hand; I think it is CDAU, though i cannot imagine why it would be. I am inclined to the think that the ability to create demons (or angels, other than bright lilim) is part of the Superior Package (along with the gym membership and health plan). But I digress...). The one thing she cannot get, reliably, is a Malakite. They do not fall, she cannot make them herself. Assuming she wants one (for whatever reasons; I am sure she would be glad to tell anyone who asked why she wanted them, for a price...) She cannot get them easily, if at all. Now, enter the second factor into the equation; Marc. Her divine analog, more or less. As with all divine superiors, he can create angels, more or less at will. This of course includes Malakim. Now. Imagine if you will, Marc and Lilith meeting in Las Vegas(2); Lilith has a proposal for Marc. One Lilim for one Malakite, staight across, no strings attached. From the Lilim point of view, she is created(3) and traded specifically to this superior, just as she would be to any other. For the newborn(4) lilim, what is the difference between Marc and, say, Andre? Just another lifetime contract, I would guess. For the Malakite, it is a little more tricky. There are those pesky two intrinsic oaths, to never surrentder or be captured by the forces of Hell, and to Always fight the forces of Hell(5). Both of those have the added feature of Whe It Is My Choice, though, right? So if Marc were to create a Malakite, and say, In a nutshell, "This is Lilith. Serve her as you would me." would that basically clear up the problem? Another variation of this is a limited duration experiment. The Mal and the lilim are traded for a specific amount of time, and both Geas bound to serve the other superior for a year and a day (or whatever). Again, the Malakite is ordered, by Marc (his Superior) to "Serve Lilith as you would serve me." Now, from the point of view of the superiors involved, is there a downside to this arrangement? Well, aside from the fact that if Judgement / The Game found out about it, there might be... repercussions. So, assume that this is strictly under the table and hush hush. Other than that, they each get something they presuably(6) want. From Marcs point of view, since Lilim can redeem(8) the idea is that redemption among Lilim is Rare, successful(8) redemption even more so, (established in Cannon) and when it does occur "the paperwork is endless and the backorder is ridiculous." Having a relatively reliable and safe source for Lilim might apeal to him. Even on a limited Duration contract, he could argue that having her in his service for a while would increase the chances of her redeeming. It occurs to me that if the lilim does not redeem, then there is the trouble of where to keep her Heart. This is only a problem in the limited duration contract (7). In that case, I would guess that Marc could prepare for that eventuality. Say, keep her heart in a place that does not destroy her when she goes there. So. Does this inspire evi.. creative thoughts in others? For the record, I am going to talk to my GM and see if i can convince her that the Malakite of Trade in (Lifetime) Service to Freedom is a feasible. - -Daiv There is only one true caffiene, and Jolt is her Prophet. (1) theory formulated without the assistance of books, or even enough caffiene (I am only halfway through my first Jolt cola) (8). (2) Personally, I think that this is their own personal battleground. I concede that this is debatable and there are other valid possibilities as to who exactly runs Egas in IN. (3) In a process that is not yet well defined as anything other than CDAU. Nor do I expect that it ever will be. (4) see above note; I think there is a certain aspect of birth in the process, else why do they all call her Mother? (5) I redirect your attention to footnote 1; the phrasing of the oaths may be off, or entirely wrong. But the part I am sure of is the 'when it is my choice' clause. (6) The whole thought experiment falls apart if you are not willing to assume that they both want what the other has to offer. If you don't buy theat, then this is an entirely pointless post. (7) In that case, the lilim has not redeemed. she is just fulfilling another contract like any other. (8)The worst part of this is that i really do talk this way, parenthesis and all. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:51:27 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom > [major snip] So if Marc were to create a Malakite, and > say, In a nutshell, "This is Lilith. Serve her as you would me." would that > basically clear up the problem? Not saying it's not possible, but if it was, wouldn't that be the cruelest thing one could do to a Malakite? I mean, it might be ok for the Lilim to work with Heaven, I guess. Forcing a Malakite, however, to endure the presence of evil without smiting it is already kind of a torture for the poor angel, imagine how cruel it would be to force it to actually work for Hell... > (4) see above note; I think there is a certain aspect of birth in the process, > else why do they all call her Mother? Each Lilim is created with a personal Ethereal Force from Lilith. Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:07:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom Laurent wrote: > Not saying it's not possible, but if it was, wouldn't that be the > cruelest thing one could do to a Malakite? Just about. I wonder, could a Superior nip in at the moment of creation and make a non-standard Malakite with different starting oaths? Perhaps the deal could include specifications that each spirit work for the greyer, lower-contrast aspects of the rival Superior's Word. Given the probable reaction of Judgement and the Game, one wonders at the life-expectancy of the Lilim and Malakite in question, if it were a term-contract deal. Marc might be above destroying the poor Malakite, but he might at least strip and replace its Ethereal forces, to destroy its memories and thus the evidence. Lilith probably wouldn't balk at being more thorough. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:30:27 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question >Perry Lloyd wrote: > > Corporeal Artifacts can be brought to the Ethereal and Celestial planes? > >No. > > > Ethereal Artifacts can be brought to the Celestial plane? > >No. Then why would an Ethereal/Celestial artifact exist on the Corporeal plane? If it's created on the Ethereal/Celestial plane, why should it be made to also exist on the Corporeal plane? Why would Ethereal characteristics continue to be used on the Celestial plane if Ethereal artifacts are not? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:39:47 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question >At 10:20 PM +0000 9/29/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >First, > >Corporeal Artifacts can be brought to the Ethereal and Celestial planes? > >No -- they're in potentiality, same as a vessel. So.... *why* does Micheal prefer to only weild a Corporeal Artifact Axe (as stated in Liber Reliquarum, though I'm proabably wrong) if he's *never* going to use it in Celestial Combat. Or, just he just rely on his Power-2 hand strikes and Power-1 kicks b/c he's just that bad-ass . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:42:22 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question >If someone wanted a celestial-only weapon for combat (which could be >kind of surprising to someone who assumed the character was unarmed), >I might charge a single point -- sort of like a corporeal artifact >costs a single point. Or, IIRC, they could purchase the item normally, but declare that it manifests as a non-weapon on the Corporeal plane, as a ring or braclet for instance. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:48:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions This is half a enquiry and half an adventure seed, so I'm just gonna toss it out without thinking about it too hard. :) I've been thinking about ethereals (Lord, let the EPG come out soon): specifically, I think I see ... maybe not a loophole, but a deadfall ... in the Host's dealings with them: handling converts. Honestly, can Heaven really ban those ethereal spirits that have embraced an official 'divine religion', and not end up hypocrites? Granted, those types of faiths don't create ethereals, but there is always the possibility that existing spirits will choose, legitimately, to become Christians or Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or whatever. If celestials can, why not ethereals? Even if the various Superiors choose to ignore this*, their Servitors aren't so lucky. Example: a bunch of Seraphim and Malakim discover an ethereal, living quite openly in Damascus. He's not revealing his special nature to anyone, but he is definitely not trying to hide from Heaven. They swoop in, confront the interloper ... and get told politely that: a, he became a Muslim about 1300 years ago upon hearing the words of Mohammed himself; b, he's served humanity ever since, being properly submissive to the will of Allah; c, he also does his best to spread the truth of the Koran among his infidel brothers and sisters; and d, Khalid's coming by later that week for the next round of the chess game they've been playing for the last five centuries. Resonance scans confirm all of this. So ... what do they do next? ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Political Complications Are Pure Murder, Ain't They? *Assuming that they can. Dominic's a Seraph AA, which means that he can detect the Truth of a Conversion in a heartbeat; David and Laurence are Malakim, which means that they can see an ethereal's honor level in about the same time; and Khalid probably understands what it's liked to be an unappreciated loyal follower of Allah better than anyone on the Council (besides, is it not written that some of the djinn embraced the Way?). Bear in mind that Larry and Khalid are also both sincere followers of faiths that have _issues_ with killing fellow-believers just because they're incompatible with your worldview... :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:53:21 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question >If someone wanted a celestial-only weapon for combat (which could be >kind of surprising to someone who assumed the character was unarmed), >I might charge a single point -- sort of like a corporeal artifact >costs a single point. Hrm... we currently have: One point/level for items that manifest on only one plane; Two points/level for those that manifest on two planes; Three points/lvl for those that manifest on three planes. Why not charge three points/level for a Corporeal Artifact that can be brought to the Celestial and Ethereal plane? Rationale is simple enough. "Bonding" to a Corporeal Artifact might cause the person to identify so strongly with it, that they "bring" it with them when they sleep. The same parallel for when they die/go celestial. As per the rationale for Ethereal artifacts, well, ones that can manifest on the Celestial plane are more difficult to make. Question: Given: I have a sword: Corporeal/3, Ethereal/4, Celestial/1. Logically, I can bring it with me to the Celestial plane b/c it's a Celestial artifact. *But* would it retain its properties as a Corporeal Artifact and Ethereal Artifact? If so, then PCs could just shell out the 3pts for the Artifact to have 1 level of Celestial nature (and perhaps a level 1 reliquary to boot) and be able to bring it to the Corporeal plane. Except that its Celestial nature *must* be inbued on the Celestial plane (and Ethereal nature on the Ethereal plane), which means that if a character has, say, Corporeal Artifact(sword)/3, it can *never* also become a Celestial Artifact except through Intervention or a Superior. Man, that kinda sucks. What doesn't suck is that a Ethereal Artifact can manifest on the Corporeal plane as something completely unrelated to its Ethereal nature, like say, Ethereal Artifact(Survival)/4 which is a pocket knife on the Ethereal plane, could be a motorhome on the Corporeal Plane. Sweetness. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:00:57 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions > Honestly, can Heaven really ban those ethereal spirits > that have embraced an official 'divine religion', and > not end up hypocrites? Granted, those types of faiths > don't create ethereals, but there is always the > possibility that existing spirits will choose, > legitimately, to become Christians or Muslims or Jews > or Buddhists or whatever. If celestials can, why not > ethereals? Hmm. I'd say sure, let the Ethereal live, but... Heaven has happily wiped out Outcast angels, Grigori, and even non-Outcast, discordant angels who were sincere and devout adherents to divine faiths. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:06:57 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Morilim >At 5:55 PM -0400 10/4/00, William J. Keith wrote: >>>Interesting group. Do they have any Celestial Forces? >>>I would suppose so, since they can use a resonnance and >>>celestial knowledge and perception. >> >>I've checked everywhere I can, and resonances and Symphonic Awareness don't >>seem to specifically require Celestial Forces. > >Eh? Bah. Errata time, very likely... But implicit on p. GIN17, >regarding Remnants. Urf. My choice is now to rewrite, or discard. See, for the totally confuzzled, in GIN Power Investiture isn't as central to one's being as Forces are in regular In Nomine... mundanes, e.g., have *no* Power Investiture, although they are still made up of Forces. >Note, though, to come at this from another angle (if not angel...) >that in plain IN, _all_ humans have Celestial Forces -- so you can >still give them that, and draw upon something akin to the Game's >Humanity Servitor Attunement (p. GIN111 ) for their >"invisibility". This is something like the rewrite I was pondering. Best rewrite I can think of in regular IN(respectively, G:IN) is giving them 6 Forces, some of each realm(the same complement of Power Investiture they would have had as a Lilim, minus a random, say, three, leaving at least one each) and then providing them with a completely human body, plus Awareness, Essence Control, and the Corporeal Song of Entropy(potential immortality) as part of the package. Then discard the Role, since the only Disturbance they create would be for Essence-fueled actions. To all perceptions they would behave, and the Symphony would respond, as if they were a human Soldier of God(granted, in GIN they would have a lot more Power Investiture than most). Any supernatural attempt to ascertain information relating to their origin or recruitment would fuzz magnificently, as do all questions regarding a Superior(who is in this case a non-invokable God Himself). I've just gotten a vision of a Morilite born as a baby to an otherwise infertile woman, and growing up developing her own Role totally naturally... >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:11:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions ben wrote: > Heaven has happily wiped out Outcast angels, Grigori, and even > non-Outcast, discordant angels who were sincere and devout > adherents to divine faiths. I don't think that's generally correct. The Grigori, in particular, were just plain cast out; as I understand it, Heaven gives them the cosmic cold shoulder, but doesn't seek them out for further stamping on just because they're Grigori. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:18:14 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions > I don't think that's generally correct. The Grigori, in particular, > were just plain cast out; as I understand it, Heaven gives them > the cosmic cold shoulder, but doesn't seek them out for further > stamping on just because they're Grigori. I stand corrected and mistaken. David's angels went after the Nephallim, not necessarily the Grigori. Of course, one could be a devout and sincere adherent to a divine faith and be a Nephallim. (Nephalite?) > Earl Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1840 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.