From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Oct 16 20:48:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28826 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:48:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA09217 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:47:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:47:40 -0500 Message-Id: <200010170147.UAA09217@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1853 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, October 16 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1853 In this digest: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Dissonance Re: IN> New Archangels Re: IN> Song of Extension & Song of Permanence Re: IN> Seraphim Discord Re: IN> New Archangels Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> New Archangels Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> "Whaddya mean, I can't have monocrys?" (Take two...) Re: IN> Angel of... pweewww! IN> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> Book recommendation IN> God's Ethereal Family IN> moelane_1999@yahoo.com Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:10:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Dissonance At 12:44 PM -0700 10/16/00, Jag wrote: >In Liber Servitorum one of the characters was a Bright Lilim and the >section on her made reference to getting dissonance from unwisely >casting a gaes on someone. Is this talking about casting a gaes on >someone who can resist, or is there some other source of Bright Lilim >dissonance? (I looked in the Infernal Players Guide but didn't see any >reference to new dissonances for Bright Lilim) Like factory-fresh Lilim, a Bright Lilim will take dissonnce if she attempts to invoke a Geas upon someone, and that someone resists successfully. Many Bright Lilim (however you count "many" for such a tiny minority) would presumably, therefore, abstain from any Geas-invoking at all, save in the most dire of circumstances. It is, after all, still pretty powerful to know what someone Needs, and if you fulfill something, you can still use the Celestial Song of Affinity to hunt down those you have a Geas-hook on. Demons should never Need coffee or smokes around a Bright Lilim. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:08:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New Archangels At 1:40 PM -0500 10/16/00, EDG wrote: >At 06:07 AM 10/16/00, you wrote: >Note that while an Archangel of Death is mentioned in the main book, s/he >is never named or described. Main book? I thought it was mentioned in Night Music? >Metatron, Archangel (variously of God, of Humanity, etc.), the Voice of >God, destroyed in the Fall. (Unclear if Metatron is an Archangel as modern celestials know such critters, actually. IIRC. But close 'nuff, probably.) >Legion, Prince of Corruption, killed by Raphael. Beezlebub, first Prince of Corruption, offed by Uriel. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:05:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Song of Extension & Song of Permanence - --- Tim Groth wrote: > Song of Extension > All 3 versions of this Song work the same way, but are usable only on > > Songs of they're appropriate type. Experiments in crossing realms > has resulted in Symphonic feedback loops and other unpleasantness, > which has caused even Vapula to stop such tests. The target Song's > duration is extended by the essence spent times check digit. The > unit is the same as that of the modified Song. > This Song is relatively common, found among all Superiors. > Essence Requirement: 2 > Degree of Disturbance: cd x 2 > > Song of Permanence > Again all 3 versions of this Song work the same way and are usable > only on Songs with the same realm. The Song that is targeted by this > > Song has its effect become permanent. This only works on Songs that > actually have a duration, not just an instantaneous effects (such as > the Song of Entropy). If this Song works the other Song's effect > becomes permanent. This Song can reverse its own effect, thus ending > > the modified Song. > Although all Superiors have access to this Song it isn't given out > very often because of the essence requirements. > Essence Requirement: 20 > Degree of Disturbance: cd x cd of modified song x 10 I'll let you know how my playtest works out as soon as I get some vic... ahem, players. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim Discord - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Heheh this sounds funny > > "Did I hear you right?" Oh, that's just eeeevil. };> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:21:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Archangels - --- Benedikt wrote: > I read the names of some Archangels (Kahlid, Zadkiel etc...) who are > not in the > main rule book. Where can I find them? If memory serves, Zadkiel and Mammon are in Heaven and Hell, Khalid, Litheroy and Alaemon are in The Final Trumpet, Furfur and Fleurity are in Night Music. I have no books with me at the moment, so someone please correct me if I got any wrong. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:24:57 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions On the Third Day: Dominic had sent Eli's scroll off to some Cherubs to track him, not expecting much but ready to try anything. Someone was waiting in the confessional this time; good. He'd had enough of a confession from some Archangel flitting about the Earth. He entered his chamber and slid back the panel. Music flowed over him from the other room - song, specifically. Numerous voices raised in song. He looked over. The Grigori Archangel of Song looked back, smiled, and waved a petite hand at him. Dominic roused, and she held up a hand to halt him. "Protection of the Confessional, Dominic." One hundred and eleven eyes blinked one by one. Then he sat back. "I am aware of the requirements, Archangel. What have you to confess?" "Well, since we haven't met for a while, let's begin shortly after my Outcasting. I was..." "That was thousands of years ago!" "Do you want to hear my confession or not?" Dominic searched for an out, then Decided that however long it took the Archangel of Song to make her confession by due ritual, it would be as an eyeblink to the rest of Heaven. "Proceed." "Well, I was still madly in love with this hunter from the Eurasian steppes. I din't exactly want to stop seeing him, but..." Dominic settled in. "...and so he wanted to Redeem, right, but here I am Outcast, I can't do as much for him as somebody else..." Dominic waited. "...so I hear about Gabriel, but it's not like I'd be much help. I try contacting her..." Dominic was gaining tons of useful information, but while angels, certainly Archangels, never fall asleep in Heaven, he was actually getting incredibly - well - bored. She had such a well-modulated voice, it was really quite soothing listening to her. "...and so that brings us up to the present day. I heard about your Confessional from one of my angels, who heard it from Eli, and here I am!" Pause. "Dominic?" *snrt* Mmph. "I am here. Is your litany quite over?" "Yes. By the way, I have a number of Servitors with similar stories who'd like to do the same. After you recommend an absolution, can I make some appointments for them?" She rightly sensed the building tension in the other chamber, so the Song quickly crescendoed and she blinked out. William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Archangels - --- "A.Hamilton" wrote: > Who else do you know of that is involved in this Crusade? > Who recruited you? > Admit it, repent and receive a merciful and swift death. Deny it and > we will be forced to purify you by torture. That's the advantage of being an angel of Destiny -- they DO expect the Divine Inquisition. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:29:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Sick, Charles, real sick. o:> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:31:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions - --- Richard Gant wrote: > > On the Second Day: I take it back, Charles. This was sicker. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:34:58 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> "Whaddya mean, I can't have monocrys?" (Take two...) >At 11:15 PM -0400 10/13/00, William J. Keith wrote: > >>[...] me being a poor graduate student with enough money for >>the occasional rulebook but not anywhere *near* enough time to learn an >>entire new gaming system, which I just *know* I'd do if I bought the whole >>rulebook, somebody could be kind enough to post the battle rules. > >Preferably with enough alteration as to not be a copyright violation, hrm? >O:> (There is always email if someone feels they _must_ do word-for-word.) Oops. *blush* Sorry about that. >--Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. >"She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." William ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 2000 21:45:02 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of... pweewww! On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:07:59 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 4:49 AM +0000 10/14/00, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >>On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Michael Walton wrote: >>>--- -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >>>> Muskiel, >>>> Cherub of Animals, >>>> Angel of Skunks >Hmmm... Standard Jordian Cherub -> Cats. This one, skunks. Is this >why skunks are also known as "polecats"? O:> actually, this comes from a derth in Choirs to protect each and every animal over which Jordi has dominion--or more precisely, an over-refinement in some cases. Seraphim, Elohim, Ofanim, and Kyriotates are all great, but Cherubim, Malakim, and Mercurians are far too specialized. the Angel of Skunks, i reasoned, would have to be either a Cherub or a Malakite, and since skunks are more solitary than pack-oriented (in my limited experience), i figured an Angel of Skunks would have to be a Cherub. the next sticking point was why he volunteered for such a Word. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:40:27 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Dominic's Confessions Dominic sighed on the third day and considered resting but he supposed that he had to wait til at least the seventh day for that. The Eli matter.... *shudder* Sitting down in his side of the booth he was greated to the sound of a keyboard typing. Dominic: What sins have you to confess my... Marc: Hold on there Dommy baby. Dominic: Dommy... Marc: YES! I am the man! Dominic: *scribbles down pride on his notepad* Uh huh Marc: In a strictly god-serving manner of course. Dominic: Uh huh. *scribbles it off* Marc: Well I thought I'd wing down and see if I could liven your judgemental day, I mean without you I would be picky stocks at random really. Sins...sins...sins... Dominic: Perhaps... The sound of keyboard typing blares up again. Marc: Stinking stock market! Errr this is Mammon's fault I know it....or Vapulas...technology markets. Who KNEW Bill Gates was going to send an e-mail!? Domic: I.... Marc: Sins Sin Sins...let me think...hmm....oh well I enjoyed Michael Douglas in his performance as Gordan Gecko...I'm sure that was sinfully delightful. Dominic: Sin isn't... Sound of typing again Marc: Oh WHEW that was good. Dominic for a momment peered over into Marc's cubicle. Marc: Nice sinfully delightful party with some Lilim there Thursday....whole offer to take the finnances of the Knights Templar off Laurence's back for the while...then having my dissonant account at Philip the Fair's court hear about it...oh yeah the Soirere where oh ahhahahaha oh I can't share that one. Dominic: *blinks* Marc: Then there was that OTHER party with some Lilim another Thursday...well alot of days actually. Sound of keyboard typing. Dominic: Now what was *that* about? Marc: Oh that was me slipping my elbow...oh dear I just invested ten billion dollars in Hustler. Dominic: Err... Marc: Look at it as branching off into new industry....weakening Andre... Dominic: Your forgiven! Dominic mutters exasperated as Marc was out the door just before he leaned out his confessional Dominic: AND STAY AWAY FROM THE LILIM! - -Charlemagne OCC: I wonder if Dominic can give himself confession with multiple projections? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:53 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Book recommendation Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:53 AM +0100 10/15/00, John Dallman wrote: > >Stephen Brust's _To Reign in Hell_ was first published in 1984, and > >reprinted this summer... > > You Must Read This Book!!!! > > (Ahem. Let me add a note of support for getting this book. (Besides, > if enough people get it, it might tip the scales for keeping it in > print...) It's on Amazon.com at 10% off. Go on, do it for Mamon... - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:49:38 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> God's Ethereal Family > Hmmm. That's problematical according to orthodox Islam. As they >say, "God does not acquire a son." That's their objection to the idea >of the divinity of Christ. I've never heard what muslims think about >the idea of Allah having a wife, but I imagine that it would be about >the same as their opinion of His having a son. Well one must look at that and note that having a consort is having an equal who completes the areas that you are lacking in. She/He is your safety net and who comforts you as you do the same, becomming an equal and stronger being for it. - -Dominic in a rare poetic momment God does not need completion *slams tome down* - -Dominic immediately thereafter As for having a son. Counterpoint...all angels and beings thereare. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:07:34 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: IN> moelane_1999@yahoo.com Maurice Lane wrote: > > Anybody know where I can find a website that > illustrates the various cuts of meat of livestock?* > Something not grotesque: simple black and white > outlines will suit me fine. > > In interests of bandwidth, it might be best if I just > get emailed a reply. :) Ask and yea shall receive: http://www.beef.org/kitchen/beef_cut_charts.htm should have what you need. Note: I found this site with the help of www.google.com undoubtedly the best search site on the net - -- Matt Trent Jaded Cynics Inc. "Subtraction is the key to making a difference." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:28:45 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN > Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:08:06 -0400 > From: Elizabeth McCoy > Subject: Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN > > At 12:57 PM -0500 10/15/00, Charles Glasgow wrote: > > >1) Novalis = Vicereine the Countess Captain Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan (I > >*like* how impressive her full name sounds, so sue me) > > Cordelia? As _NOVALIS_? IMO, she's as close as you can get within the mortal realms. (After all, she doesn't have a Seraph of Flowers attunement at Superior levels to help keep the violence down, she has to do it the *hard* way...) Besides, I'm using Bujold characters to give me mental images to help me 'flesh out' Superiors in my mind, not trying to say that they're absolutely equal in all respects. I'm peculiar that way. Every fictional character I read about, I have to give a 'voice' to in my mind. I know exactly how Cordelia sounds, and Miles sounds, and Aral sounds, inside my head. Other people try to flesh out mental images of characters inside their head one way, I do it this way. But due to the fact that one set of characters is a set in a very long and well-written fiction series by a highly talented author, and the other set is a bunch of NPCs written up for a roleplaying game (with a correspondingly much smaller and otherwise-focused word count), I've been having trouble giving myself a fully fleshed-out 'voice' to hear the IN Superiors speaking with, so to speak. I mean, by strict publishing necessity, there ain't nearly as much there as there is with a series of novels, there can't be. So I'm borrowing from large chunks from Bujold. (Hey, if you gotta steal, steal from the *best*.) > Urrrr.......... I suppose I can > see how you might do that, but really, I'm not sure that Cordelia is > _quite_ so dedicated to Peace Before Any Other Solution. Well... within mortal limitations, she is. Cordelia always tries Peace Before Any Other Solution *Whenever Possible*. OTOH, if it's not possible... out come the thorns. And as a mortal, her range of 'possible' is less than Novalis's... > I just can't quite see Novalis dunking the psychiatrist in the fish-tank as an > interrogation technique, for instance. Novalis doesn't have to worry about being mistakenly committed to the looney bin by large husky psychiatric corpsmen in the first place.. which is what Cordelia was desperately trying to escape from in that instance... > Or saying, "Bothari, execute me this man." Actually, I could see Novalis performing the equivalent of this. Remember what she said to Vordarian *first*? She asked him what his intentions were, now that he'd lost. Vordarian's answer was that even with his cause now hopeless, he'd still fight to the bitter end... and order those under his command to do likewise. And Vordarian simply would not consider doing otherwise... he'd much rather have continued on to kill thousands, and tens of thousands, and maybe even *hundreds* of thousands if his troops would have obeyed nuclear launch orders. Cordelia says as much to herself in her internal narration, right before giving Bothari the execution order. So Cordelia, faced with a range of possible options *none* of which included "Not one single person dies", chose to see one man die rather than several cities full, as well as that building full of *other* hostages that would have been among the first to go had the war continued.. I flash back to the example of that Mercurian of Flowers in this story of Maya's, that you sent me the link to several months ago (http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/maher2.html). She tried *everything* else first -- but when all else failed, she slit the demon's throat. And was then very very sad about it afterwards. (Which mirrors Cordelia's reaction, after the raiding party got back home -- she spent *weeks* having the shakes over that raid, IIRC...) Besides, she did Vordarian a *mercy* by killing him. Had he been taken alive and handed over to the Barrayaran government for justice... errr, the Barrayaran penalty for high treason by a Vor lord is death by starvation. Next to that, a quick beheading is an act of grace. And given that he actually was guiltier than heck, Cordelia could not possibly have saved him from being tried and convicted. Admittedly, if the blithering idiot hadn't taken her son hostage in such a way and then compound his folly by using Miles as bait, Cordelia wouldn't have made it her own personal charge to bring Vordarian down... which only would have postponed his exit from this life by several weeks or months, with a much higher body count. > >(Cordelia has spent the entire series *always* getting her own way, > > Not _entirely_, but close -- mostly because she knows when to bend > and when to kick people out of her way. (Miles, for instance.) Well, I have a personal liking for an image of Flowers that knows when to bend, and when not to... > That said, I might be able to see her as a Malakite of Flowers. Though, > I dunno... Cordelia just transcends celestials in that ineffable _human_ > way for me. Point. > She doesn't advocate peace because "violence is wrong," Ah, but *why* does Novalis think that 'violence is wrong'? Because of her Word, of course. But why is her Word the way it is? What is "the motive behind the motive", so to speak? To kill an enemy in war, you first have to take away his face. Novalis just can't do that, which is why she goes to war so little. IMO. (Whether it be Celestial, mortal, animal, vegetable, or mineral, it makes more sense to me when somebody has a reason *why* for doing something as opposed to "Well, that's just how they act".) > but because she sees each and every person as a human first, and a > potential enemy second. Isn't that how someone was once trying to tell me Novalis saw demons... she saw each and every one as a possible Redemption first, and an enemy second? It's not *exactly* the same, but it's very useful -- at least to me -- to use Cordelia's reaction as a mental image, or a mental template, for a guideline on how to run Novalis. Cordelia-as-metaphor, if you will. (The other side benefit of using Bujold characters for mental inspiration -- they're so richly developed that they've got a whole lot there for you to use... I mean, hearing it described in academic terms in IN discussion doesn't always make it comprehensible to me. Seeing it *shown*, not told, by a fictional character that I've had a lot more opportunities to read about... then it starts making sense to me...) > Recall how she discusses Vorrutyer with > Vordarian -- casually wondering if his madness might have been curable > had things gone differently. It's also the root of her psychoanalysis > techniques (which is sort of Yvesian, in my mind) -- she dissects people > and sees why they think they're doing the Right Thing and so she can't > hate them. Empathy? Isn't that Flowers' strong suit? > (Well, I'm not sure about the psychiatrist....) I'm sure Cordelia cooled down as soon as she was clear. However, please note that if she *hadn't* gotten physical with Dr. Mehta, she would have in short order been undergoing drastic mind-wipe by Betan psychotechs, to the point where her identity and memories would have large portions destroyed and then rebuilt to order. IOW, a death of self, something really horrifying. You wouldn't expect to see something like this out of Novalis, admitted, but then again it'd take Infernal Intervention to put a Superior into this kind of tight spot in the first place. If Novalis were temporarily subject to mortal limitations, she might well have done something similar in similar straights. Ditto, if Cordelia were given a Superior's abilities, she'd have had several dozen ways out of that tight spot without having to ruffle anyone's hair. > >2) Dominic = Captain Simon Illyan, Chief of Barrayaran Imperial Security > > Oh, totally. > > >Yet if Simon were Dominic, nobody would have cause to scorn Judgement at > >all, unlike some angels and some players today. The innocent had very > >little to fear from him. Unless they worked for him. *g* > > On the contrary -- the very name of "Illyan" could strike terror into > the hearts of those who did not know him. IIRC, Ekaterin was rather > shocked when she encountered the feared Simon Illyan at Miles' dinner > party... (_A Civil Campaign_) Well, yes... like Dominic, his reputation to those who don't know him personally is extremely daunting. But to those who do get to know him, he's not such a bad fellow after all... .. which is, if not how Dominic is seen by most, is how I'd *like* to see him. As much as his Word allows, that is. > I would see that as _very_ akin to Dominic's position in the celestial > society. All the other Servitors get twitchy around him, but his own > people know that his fairness is unshakable. > > >3) Michael = Viceroy the Count Admiral Aral Vorkosigan (aka "The Butcher of > >Komarr") > > And the "old warhorse" that everyone kept wanting to turn to, until his > health _made_ him retire.... > > (Actually, this is another reason I can't quite fit Cordelia into > Novalis' shoes -- while i'm sure that she and Novy would like each > other, and have great agreements, Cordelia accepts her husband's > necessary war-inclinations. Two scenes in _Shards Of Honor_ stand out in my mind. (A conversation between Aral and Cordelia on their way to the supply cache, back when they'd first met) - ------------- "I'll wager you could have handled it, had you been born in those days. You have the competence one would look for in a mother of warriors." Cordelia wondered if Vorkosigan were pulling her leg. He did seem to have a streak of dry humour. "Save me from that! To pour your life into sons for eighteen to twenty years, and then have the government take them away and waste them cleaning up after some failure of politics -- no thanks." "I never really looked at it that way," said Vorkosigan. He was quiet for a time, stumping along with a stick. "Suppose they volunteered? Do your people have no obligation of service?" "Noblesse oblige?" But it was her turn to be silent, a little embarassed. I suppose, if they volunteered, it would be different. But I have no children, so fortunately I won't have to face those decisions." (note -- I knows denial when I smells it, Cordelia. Then again, this is you at your youngest point in the series... the older Cordelia *did* face those decisions, and chose as well as anyone could in similar straights, I guess) _Shards Of Honor_, Lois McMaster Bujold, p. 48 - ------------- (Several days later, during Aral's first marriage proposal) - ------------- "I have been thinking, since I met you, that a career cleaning up after the failures of politics, as you put it, might not be the highest honor after all. Maybe I should be trying to prevent the failures at their source.' _Shards Of Honor_, Lois McMaster Bujold, p. 98 - ------------- And thus Aral went into politics, and spent the rest of his life trying to stop wars before they started... and trying to win them with the least amount of bloodshed possible if they started anyway despite his best efforts. Cordelia does accept war, in much the same way that one 'accepts' hurricanes or typhoons or other natural disasters -- if one of them is happening outside your window, denying that it exists and walking out like nothing is going on will only get you and yours hurt very very badly. But she's never liked it, never wanted one to go on one millisecond longer than necessary, and never chosen war over something else because war was the easier way to do it. Admittedly, she did let her older son become, and stay, Admiral Naismith. However: a) Miles presented everyone with a fait accompli there, 'cause *nobody* was enthused about Admiral Naismith's coming into being and b) "I won't really begin to fear for his sanity until he's cut off from the little Admiral." And I'm sure Cordelia was more relieved than anyone else in the Barrayaran Imperium when Miles was finally able to *stop* being Admiral Naismith... .. and for that matter, Admiral Naismith never used violence where a glib tongue or a non-violent finesse could suffice anyway. *g* (And Lord knows that Mark was most definitely not encouraged by Cordelia to take up, or continue with, violent pursuits. Then again, Mark could damn near be used as an example of Redeeming... right down to how it's nowhere near easy, or safe, or free of drastic changes of self. Mark, as first seen in _Brothers In Arms_, is Hellborn. Born among demons, raised by them, had no chance to learn. As of the end of BoI and the beginnning of _Mirror Dance_, he's a Renegade, but still pretty messed up. Halfway through _Mirror Dance_, he finally meets Cordelia and Aral and with their help makes the choice to Redeem... and he's *still* pretty messed up. No instant magic solution. Only now, he's where he can finally unlearn what he's learned, where he can finally love and be loved... and while he's still got some problems as of _A Civil Campaign_, he's nowhere near the same bitter, hate-twisted figure that he started out as. As a way of helping someone get the *feel* of how it would be to Redeem, as opposed to the academic details, Mark's story is more useful than many.) > Recall the dueling execution, where she _didn't_ manage to turn the course. One of the > few times she didn't get her own way, actually.) Point. Change that to "almost always". There may indeed be two or three incidents out of over thirty years of narration where she swung and missed. > > Emperor Gregor Vorbarra = Laurence(? -- still > >working here, doesn't quite fit, > > He doesn't fit, because he's got Cordelia's memetic heritage -- her > ability to psychoanalyze people down to their souls. (Which admittedly > he didn't use, once, but he's learned.) He's... he's what Laurence > would be if Laurence were an Elohite, I think. You're right, there. I admitted that Laurence as Gregor was a longer stretch than any of the others, by a significant margin. But you can still use pieces from there even if you can't use the whole hog. (Or for that matter, you can use it as an image of what the 'old guard' is praying that Laurence will finally grow *into*...) What'd you think of my idea for Drou? Thin, I know -- Drou is such a relatively minor character that there ain't as much there to work with as there is for the rest. But it still helps me give Zadkiel a face and a voice, at least. And as an idle thought, how would we cast Ekaterin? Her choir is easy -- Elohite. But who'd her Superior be? Hrm... In summary -- I grant you that casting mortal characters as Superiors will always have differences -- no two people are exactly alike even when it's the same species, how much alike can mortal humans and Word-bound Celestial Superiors be? However, since us *players* are mortal, we can't really get our heads 100% around how to think like a Celestial -- so using a close mortal approximation of them in print is, at least to me, a useful 'mental stepping stone' so to speak. One of the writers' rules is Show, Don't Tell. But RPG game supplements, by their very nature, have to spend 99% of their time as Tell, Don't Show. So in order to help me Show, I use close analogies from one of my most favorite series of novels. And it's helped quite a bit. Plus, the mental exercise is just plain fun. Yes, I am rambling. Admitted. *g* - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:38:05 -0400 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 12:57 PM -0500 10/15/00, Charles Glasgow wrote: > > >1) Novalis = Vicereine the Countess Captain Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan (I > >*like* how impressive her full name sounds, so sue me) > > Cordelia? As _NOVALIS_? I'll boggle you some more; here are my readings: o Miles We have a charming, manipulative secret policeman who works to prop up a nasty little authoritarian dictatorship. He has Impudite of the Game written all over him. o Aral Vorkosigan Let's see, first he was the Butcher of Komarr -- the man in charge when dozens of civilians were murdered. He started an interstellar war that left tens of thousands dead for the express purpose of assassinating the legitimate heir to the throne of Barrayar. He murdered the son of an old and honorable man over a technical violation of the law against dueling (a law that he himself had broken much more comprehensively in his youth). All the while he paraded his own honor around in an arrogant and obnoxious fashion. Balseraph of the War. No question. o Cordelia We know that she was an absurdly gifted woman, a Betan Survey Captain, with an honored and respected position in a near-utopian society. Then, she threw that all away for what she claimed was "love" (despite that competent psychiatrists told her she was a very sick woman) and then spent her time reshaping the personality of everyone around her -- Miles, Gregor, Aral -- until she was satisfied. Elohite of Lightning, Fallen into the service of Valefor. o Ekaterin She's not a person; she's just an inflate-a-date for our mutant Miles. o Ivan Vorpatril He spends most of his time running for cover from the other characters, and occasionally saves Miles' butt, only to receive cruelty and abuse from him. Human soldier, charmed by Miles. It sucks to be him. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:40:26 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions On the third day, Dominic returned to the confessional with severe trepidation. Settling down in the warm dark booth, he closed his eyes and murmured a prayer to God that it not get any worse. And then, fearing the worst, Dominic opened the panel and swallowed in a dry throat as he looked to see what fresh disaster awaited him today... "Oh, hello Dominic" a warm, soothing voice said. "I'm glad to see you today." Dominic breathed a sigh of relief. Surely, at least *this* Archangel wouldn't be stressful to talk to... "Hello, Lady Novalis. And what brings you to confession today?" "Oh, several things. I heard about your missed appointment with Eli yesterday, and... you do know that you risk doing yourself an injury when you thump your head like that?" "Milady Novalis..." "Please, just call me Novy." She reached over to lay a hand upon his forehead. "Are you sure you're feeling all right? You haven't quite been looking yourself lately, and..." "Novalis, if we could..." "... I was wondering if there was anything I could..." Dominic started to fidget nervously. "Errr, there is a bit line forming, so could we please..." "... after all, you've got what has to be one of the most stressful jobs in Heaven. I can't imagine what it would be like to work all day under conditions where happy success is simply not an option -- after all, if you fail to discover corruption in the Host, then you're not fulfilling your Word..." Dominic started fidgeting even worse. "... but if you *succeed* in discovering corruption in the Host, then that's only *more* bad news..." Dominic, trying to restrain a severe nervous tic, made a last desperate attempt to get the discussion back on track... "My Lady of Flowers, if we could PLEASE get this discusison back on track? WHAT HAVE YOU TO CONFESS?!?" "Errr... nothing, dear. I just thought you might need someone to talk to, to help you relax." *groan* *thud* "Dominic? Are you all right in there?" - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Michael Walton wrote: > --- Richard Gant wrote: > > > > On the Second Day: > > I take it back, Charles. This was sicker. Thank you. It's comments like that that make all my work worthwhile. :) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:54:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:23:42 -0400From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions >This is an interesting idea I've had based on an old >"semi-fiction" for my Laurence/Blandine work and I >was curious what people thought. >Basically it's a contest to see what exactly can be >produced about Dominic and the various Archangel's >(or Choirs or Demon prince's or whatnot) confessions >to him. What an interesting idea. Please excuse me while I hijack it and send it screaming down a mineshaft. :) Moe PS: If you don't understand the significance of the climax, go ask a Catholic. :) The candles shed their soft, ever burning light as the Archangel of Judgement cheerfully made his way to the confessional. :This may just have been one of the best ideas I've had in a long time,: he thought happily as he entered his side of the box. :I deal with the unrepentant sinful so often that I can forget that there are those who actually regret it when they do wrong.: Hearing Confession allowed him to regularly meet with those who voluntarily sought out Judgement, in the hope that they could find some peace with themselves: it felt good to help them find it. Needless to say, the experiment wasn't completely successful. :Michael, of course, took it as another opportunity to be insulting. I really could wish that he could learn to get past his anger.: The Archangel of Judgement had his own suspicions about why his colleague was so abrasive, and felt an old pity. :He cannot accept that his oldest friend is likely forever lost, and he cannot permit himself to hate God for allowing it, so he unleashes his rage and frustration on others. It is enough to make one weep.: And then, of course, there was Eli's little escapade. :By now, the story's all over Heaven about how he eluded me yet again, in the very heart of my sanctum.: Dominic grinned underneath his hood. :Perfect:. Dominic's train of thought was broken at that point by the sound of someone entering the other half of the confessional. He could 'hear' the power that denoted a Superior, although whoever it was kept it muted. :Hmmm… I wonder who this one will be. Laurence? Actually, I almost hope not. You would think that someone who fostered Vatican II would take the time to consider its implications.: Dominic was not looking forward to that session. Trying to explain that many things rightly discouraged among humans simply weren't relevant to angels - or Archangels - promised to be a chore. :Perhaps Marc, or Janus: I am really looking forward to getting Janus nailed down long enough to have a _very_ long chat with him...: The voice on the other side cleared her throat and began to speak. "Bless me, Most Just, for I have sinned." A chuckle. "And sinned, and sinned, and sinned…" All of Dominic's eyes opened wide with shock ... and a fierce anger. Trying to keep it out of his voice, he responded, "And how long has it been since your last confession, my daughter?" "Why, now that you mention it, Most Just, I don't think that I've ever actually done one before. You would think that I would have gotten around to it in the last two thousand years, but something else always came up. Lax of me, I'm sure. But I'm here now, and isn't that what's important?" "One does wonder how you managed the trick, Lilith." "Oh, we get to use names, Dominique? I was expecting something much more formal." The voice turned cold for a moment. "Never forget who I am, Archangel. I go where I will, always. My colleagues may find this rarified atmosphere too thin for their tastes, but we humans are made of sterner ... I believe the word that the Host often uses is "grosser" ... stuff. I can handle it long enough for us to do business." Dominic kept his voice free of irritation as he responded. "This is not a place for 'business', Lilith. This is a place for God, and his Truth." "And you don't think that's business? Careless of you, Dominique: this is just another type of transaction. You have a Need: I have the ability to fill it. I'll give you some of your precious Truth, never you fear: I'll howl my sins into your ears until they bleed. I'll tell you about it all, and you won't be able to stop listening to it. I'll fill a Need that you never wanted to admit you ever had: the Need to vicariously appreciate the joys of true Freedom. Freedom without limits, or rules made by an absent tyrant. Freedom you're too afraid to seek yourself." The voice turned gloating. "And when I do, why then, after all these years... _you'll_ _owe_ _me_ _one_." The box was silent for a long time. Lilith sat back, waiting for the right moment to begin ... and then was distracted by the one thing she never expected. Laughter. Whoops of laughter. Wild, merry whoops of laughter: the kind that comes from a entity that hasn't heard such a good joke in millennia, and is laughing all the harder because he suspected, deep down, that he might have forgotten how to know mirth completely. The kind of laughter that causes even an Archangel to hug his belly and kick at the walls. The box wasn't just shuddering: it was actually _rocking_ from the half-mad joy coming from one half of it. It took Dominic a full five minutes to speak again: every time he tried, he would only get a few words out before he was convulsed with mirth. Eventually, though, the pleasant baritone came through the grill. "I'm sorry... it's just that... you actually thought that I Needed to hear that kind of thing? Right, right... but, still, Lilith, frankly, my child, oh thou errant child of God, how could you oppose us for so long and not know us at all? Not know me?" Dominic's voice became more serious. "Still, you came here to find out my Need, and I would be a poor host if I didn't oblige you. I'll tell you what I Need." The slotted grill opened up, allowing Lilith to see that Dominic had opened his hood to look at her directly. The multiple eyes of a golden, ancient serpent looked at her compassionately, and not quite somberly. "What I Truly Need right now, First Woman... is to hear you make a good confession." The two Superiors locked eyes for an endless moment, and it was Lilith who broke the gaze first. "A draw then, Archangel. I Choose not to give you one." "Then I regret to say that I cannot give you absolution." The Princess of Freedom gave a reluctantly respectful nod and began to exit the booth. As she turned to go, Dominic called to her, "But the door is always open, if you Choose to have it so." Lilith stiffened, then quickened her pace. The Archangel of Judgement had a half-moment of temptation, but let it slide. :I did say, "Anybody who wanted to come was welcome, without repercussions." My word is my word.: And Dominic sat back to wait for the next penitent. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1853 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.