From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Oct 18 08:39:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA30719 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:39:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id IAA18986 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:37:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:37:31 -0500 Message-Id: <200010181337.IAA18986@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1855 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1855 In this digest: Re: IN> Now that THAT'S out of my head, maybe I can go sleep now. IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) IN> Laurence's blind spot IN> Now that THAT'S out of my head, maybe I can go sleep now. Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) IN> Michael & Laurence (was "Now that THAT'S out of my head... IN> The New Crusade Re: IN> Laurence's blind spot Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN Re: IN> Merry Poppins Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN Re: IN> Michael & Laurence (was "Now that THAT'S out of my head... IN> Ethereal Vessel Cache IN> Well, apparently the Devil IS a Yankees fan... Re: IN> s/he Re: IN> OT: s/he Re: IN> OT: s/he Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Re: IN> OT: s/he Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Sorry: Re: IN> New Archangels IN> Dominic's Confessions: Day Eight ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:28:50 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Now that THAT'S out of my head, maybe I can go sleep now. From: "Ryan Elias" > > Laurence has always been the slightly (*slightly*) stupid one. Maybe > naive is a better term (for a millenia old trans-human intelligence, but > hey, IN's funny that way). I would use the term "blinded by his own honor," personally. ;) I like Laurence, for all his failings. He is so honorable that he has trouble understanding that others sometimes aren't. This is the ultimate reason for his dissonance condition, you see: He expects all his servitors to be as honorable as he is, and if someone refuses to follow an honorable order (because how can someone who is honorable issue an order that is anything but honrable also?), then the disobedient one has proved to be less than honorable, and by extension less than worthy of inclusion among the ranks of the Sword. This leads to the occasional shortcomings of his strategies, as well: He will make a plan of attack that relies upon the forces of Hell acting in at least a vaguely honorable manner (he can intellectually understand that they are dishonorable, because the Rebellion is the ultimate expression of dishonor, but he still is still too much the idealist to quite accept that they won't show at least a minor trace of honor in the fight,) and when they prove to be dishonorable, that is why he has to call upon the more pragmatic AA of War. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:43:11 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) I'm finally getting ready to start putting The Robots of Jean up on a website. While I work, here's a tidbit from the overall arc. I hope you enjoy it. ^_^ - -EDG *** ANDROIDS Androids were initially created by Capek, the Angel of Robotics, as a pet project; since their inception in the late 1950s, other angels have started making them - most notably Orc, the Angel of Networks. Jean himself has created two, and uses them as assistants and sometime avatars on the corporeal world. Androids are generally humanoid; Capek's cat-robots, almost universal around his corporeal laboratory, have a different designation. They appear human for the most part, though they can have some odd physical traits that mark them as robots; Capek's best efforts rival Mercurians in image. Androids are created with seven Forces; the usual distribution is 3 Corporeal, 2 Ethereal, and 2 Celestial in androids on the corporeal plane. Androids may not leave the plane on which they were created, and may be created (by sufficiently talented angels) on any of the three planes, with their greatest concentration of Forces in the realm in which they were created (so that an Ethereal android would typically have 2 Corporeal, 3 Ethereal, and 2 Celestial). They receive 15 character points with which to purchase resources, although they may not purchase attunements of any kind, may not start off with Discord (and in fact cannot become either dissonant or discordant), and start off with one Vessel/2 (Human). An android may take levels of Robot Appearance; this functions as negative charisma, and indicates how obviously the android is a robot rather than a human. (This does not reflect mannerisms, but rather appearance; even humans sometimes /sound/ like androids.) They may also take Charisma as normal. Androids also typically start off with the Android of Robotics "attunement" and Jean's Remote Control attunement. While they do have their own distinct personalities, a common use for androids is as vessels for Kyriotates; the androids don't seem to mind much, as - unlike anything else a Kyriotate possesses - the mind of the android cohabits with the Kyriotate, instead of being pushed out. In terms of mechanics, the Song of Possession and the Kyriotate resonance work as they would on a Saint, except that the mind of the host still inhabits the body along with the possessor; Shedim bounce as they would off of a celestial. Here, then, is a typical android. Harvey Corporeal Android Android of Capek, Servitor of Robotics, Servitor of Lightning Corporeal Forces: 3 Strength: 7 Agility: 5 Ethereal Forces: 2 Intelligence: 4 Precision: 4 Celestial Forces: 2 Will: 4 Perception: 4 Skills: Artistry/3, Computer Operation/4, Electronics/4, Emote/2 Vessel: Human/2 (Hits: 35) Role: Harvey Roberts, Graphic Artist/2, Status/2 Harvey has been around since the mid-1990s. One of Capek's recent works, Harvey was created when Capek finally visited the World Wide Web and saw first-hand the awfulness that is most websites. The angel immediately set about creating an android whose sole purpose was to create websites that were /attractive/ instead of ugly piles of bitmaps and links, and set him upon the Earth with the task of making the Web a better place. Harvey likes his job. His Role as a graphic designer pays for his apartment and internet access, and as an android he rarely needs to leave his computer. He's been making a name for himself as a designer to be reckoned with; while not world-famous, his work has graced several of the more popular news and portal sites, and recently he was called upon to redesign his city's official website. Capek is pleased with the work that Harvey is accomplishing. If he could only arrange to get the android and the Angel of Eliminating Unsolicited Email in the same place at the same time... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:47:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Laurence's blind spot Prodigal wrote: > This leads to the occasional shortcomings of his strategies, as > well: He will make a plan of attack that relies upon the forces > of Hell acting in at least a vaguely honorable manner [...] and > when they prove to be dishonorable, that is why he has to call > upon the more pragmatic AA of War. This is part of Laurence's basic write-up and thoroughly canonical but can someone give an example, either from canon history or a plausible thought-experiment, of Laurence doing this? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:44:25 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Now that THAT'S out of my head, maybe I can go sleep now. *THIS WAS ELI'S DOING*! I don't know how he did it! How he manipulated the host! How he got...THIS to happen but somehow he did it! I can hear him laughing from here! This is great truly and I think this actually opens an awesome idea up.... Laurence's Renasiance Faire Hosted by the Word Bound, attended by Blandine, etc on it's opening day. It might prove an interesting idea to have a group of Angels of the Sword and some angels of the Dream (among others) to travel in a Renasiance Faire across the U.S. and Canada hunting down diabolicals and inspiring chivalric dreams. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:53:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Interesting. So any old angel with the right training can make an android? Contrast this with celestials, which can only be made by Superiors or God, or human and animal souls, which can only be made by God. What are the differences between android and human souls? Do androids have souls at all? I'd assume so, since they have Ethereal and Celestial forces. If an android dies, what happens? (If you haven't decided, I'd recommend that it always becomes a dreamshade, or always becomes a ghost, or always reincarnates. These are afterlives unlike those any other IN creatures, and so suitable for unprecedented androids.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:55:37 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> Michael & Laurence (was "Now that THAT'S out of my head... Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:51:41 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Now that THAT'S out of my head, maybe I can go sleep now. >Charles Glasgow wrote: > > Try doing a writeup where Michael actually is allowed to have a > brain. >Hrmph. Maybe the various games I've been involved in have been odd in >that Michael is generally too smart (cunning?) for his own good. >Although I've always been of the opinion that the books portray him as >pretty bright as well. >(I mean, he hoards saints, fights dirty, quotes the Art of War, dislikes >Yves and Dominic...) Looking back, I see that I failed to use the right words to express my original intent. Oopsie. You are correct in that most writeups of Michael agree that he's cunning and/or clever. Some of them even agree that he's smart. OTOH, there is a real dearth of writeups/portrayals of Michael that show him as being *wise*. And IMO, at least, he'd have to be. Not *all*-wise, of course -- Mike's definitely got a few blind spots, and it's pretty obvious what they are -- but still wise as well as smart. Michael is the oldest and most experienced warrior in the entire Symphony, and contrary to some popular conceptions old warriors have (barring very rare exceptions) accumulated a significant amount of wisdom along the way. It's a natural outgrowth of having survived long enough to become an old warrior. (Incidentally, kudos to whoever came up with that off-the-cuff rationale during the Dominic's Confessions contest as to why Michael is always acting like such an !@#$!!@ to Dominic. It makes Michael's continuing to hold that grudge more comprehensible to me, as well as holding out more hope of resolution. It makes Michael understandable, instead of just being petty. Still wrong, but at least not petty.) I see Laurence as the young and dashing first lieutenant (Laurence is not a 2nd lieutenant -- he may be the youngest Archangel in the Host, but he's over a millennia past having been fledged yesterday)... and Michael as the grizzled old sergeant-major. The officer outranks the non-com, but if the officer knows what's good for him he's going to listen to his elder's advice. And in a direct confrontation, the old sergeant could tear the young officer's head off with one eye closed and the other squinting. OTOH, the young officer is the one tasked with looking at the bigger picture, while the NCO by virtue of his own required role is often too close to the trees to see the whole forest, and especially how that forest ties into all the neighboring forests. As well as Now if Lt. Laurence would only learn the difference between how he was taught how to do it at West Point and learn that on the real battlefield, the enemy doesn't play by the same book that he learned from... which is, of course, Sgt-Major Michael's job, to teach him, much as wise old NCO's have had to teach bright young officers for millennia... Yes, I'm rambling again, to the point where even I've forgotten my original point. I do that sometimes. *g* - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:46:50 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The New Crusade Moe... I *TOLD* YOU ALL THAT DOMINIC WAS BEHIND IT! I knew it! The momment I began this guy was the conspiracy master of Heaven! The Cigarette Smoking Cherub was in his service all along! - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:03:05 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's blind spot >From: Earl Wajenberg >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: IN> Laurence's blind spot >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:47:19 -0500 > >Prodigal wrote: > > > This leads to the occasional shortcomings of his strategies, as > > well: He will make a plan of attack that relies upon the forces > > of Hell acting in at least a vaguely honorable manner [...] and > > when they prove to be dishonorable, that is why he has to call > > upon the more pragmatic AA of War. > >This is part of Laurence's basic write-up and thoroughly canonical >but can someone give an example, either from canon history or >a plausible thought-experiment, of Laurence doing this? The "Laurence's Failures" sidebar in his Superiors 1 writeup tries to do this. I took particular note of the 'Divine Right Of Kings' section... ========= "Long into the modern era, Laurence supported the ancient theory that leaders were an elite, role models who ruled by divine right. Of course, Laurence's intention was to provide the guidance that would make those leaders worthy of their roles. But kings tended to be a stubborn lot, even less amenable than most humans to doing what Laurence wanted. They consistently failed to live up to his expectations, and their power steadily eroded, until by the 18th century, Laurence finally akcnowledged that Romanticism was being eclipsed by the Enlightenment, and that his support of the 'divine right of kings' had only helped prop up corrupt, outmoded monarchies." - -- Superiors 1, p. 80 ========= Laurence had an idea that would have worked out great -- if everybody else involved had been as honorable as he is. He didn't stop to think that both human nature's own darker side and deliberate Diabolical efforts could easily take his rationale and pervert it into an excuse for soulless tyranny, simply by taking advantage of the corruptibility of mortals. The other failures listed were of the same pattern -- great in theory, flopped like a dead whale in practice, 'cause Laurence forgot to allow for a margin of error. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:56:03 GMT From: "Daniel Gallagher" Subject: Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Day Seven: He rested, as the lord intended. The Archangel of Judgment had spent six days in work and planed to spend this one in repose. The week had been trying to say the least, and Dominic was gathering the distinct impression that it was on the agenda of every celestial in heaven and hell to make him look like a fool, but finally he could pause and reflect on the past events, himself and god. He meditated quietly for almost an hour until he noticed someone waiting outside his quarters. This was not entirely unexpected; he knew the axiom, no rest of the righteous. “Enter.” He said. Opening his many eyes to greet this visitor of the day. Surprising l it as Bronwen, won of his most favored servitors. Hr greeted her as kindly as he could manage and told her that she could enter. “Thank you lord” “What brings you to me today Bronwen, I trust that I’ve been fair and just of late. That I have been keeping true to my word.” “Indeed you have lord. I have come today to ask about your confessional campaign. How has it been going? “Slowly, and in a most frustrating manner. Those truly in need of absolution do not confess, or do so only to mock me, an those who confess earnestly are hardly in need of it. One archangel came to me and confessed every sin which he and committed since his creation, which was a very long time ago, to the present. I almost assigned his penance to be apologizing to the principal of each sin, however I found that to be spiteful and probably more of a punishment for those he was apologizing to. It has not been present and I suppose there it a great deal more to come.” Bronwen smiled, a subtle change of shape in her beautiful black visage. “You must be troubled” “Indeed I am,” he sighed “ but I shall survive. So, do you wish me to hear your confession today child.” “No lord, O would never think of asking anything of you on your day of rest, I instead wondered if perhaps you would wish to confess to me.” Under his robes Dominic returned her smile. “Yes,” he said “I believe that is exactly what I need.” The following conversation was long and revealing as Judgment exposed to his aide-de-camp every sin he committed since his last confession, which he had to admit was a long time ago. In the end, the two sat staring at each other silently. “And my penance?” Dominic said, breaking the silence first. Bronwen shook her head. “I think the past week had been penance enough for you, and as you said there’s more to come.” ================================== I’d first like to say the Bronwen was the creation of Moe Lane and I apologize greatly for using her without his permission however I wanted to get this out before anyone did Dominic’s own confession or the seventh day. I suggest you visit his website and read her description. I thought she was a very interesting character. Daniel Gallagher Archangel of Slackers "The world is... um, pass the doritos." _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:04:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN > From: "Charles Glasgow" > So I was walking along today and was suddenly struck by a random thought -- > how many of Bujold's characters can we cast as Superiors? Or, failing that, > servitors? For me at least, doing this helps me round out their > personalities from archetypes to people (one of Bujold's greatest skills, > which is why I'm borrowing it, cause it *ain't* one of mine...), even if it > means changing the tone of their writeups a bit. I'm suprised no one else on the list has brought up Jackson's Hole yet. The place practically is Hell on Earth, specifically Shal-Mari. Everyone is out for themselves and anything can be bought for the right price. The whole planet has a Lilim mindset. And Baron Ryoval is Bujold's Andre. House Ryoval's slogan is "Dreams Made Flesh" after all. Not sure who Baron Fell maps to. Anyone have any ideas? Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:05:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Merry Poppins Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:40:40 -0500From: Matt Trent Subject: IN> Merry Poppins >Well, I don't know if it was the muppits or the cows >or the crusade, but something sparked my creativity >gene and so I give you Merry Popins. >Practically Perfect in Every Way. >Merry Poplins >Eloite of the Wind You know, somewhere out there is a novice IN GM who is reading the digests. She's* too shy to speak up, but she's going through the posts, reading the writeups, riffling through all of our websites for interesting NPCs, and finding them. In three days she'll be ready to run her first IN session, armed with Merry Poppins, Jack Chick IN, Muskiel, Demonic Epithets and the Archangel Haagenti. I weep for her players. ;) Moe *I got temporarily tired of the entire he/she convention. :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:40:58 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Acosta" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 9:04 PM Subject: Re: IN> Random thought -- Bujold and IN > > From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > So I was walking along today and was suddenly struck by a random thought -- > > how many of Bujold's characters can we cast as Superiors? Or, failing that, > > servitors? For me at least, doing this helps me round out their > > personalities from archetypes to people (one of Bujold's greatest skills, > > which is why I'm borrowing it, cause it *ain't* one of mine...), even if it > > means changing the tone of their writeups a bit. > > I'm suprised no one else on the list has brought up Jackson's Hole > yet. DOH! Didn't think of that! You're right, Jackson's Hole has got to be wall-to-wall Infernal Tethers... > The place practically is Hell on Earth, specifically > Shal-Mari. Everyone is out for themselves and anything can be bought for > the right price. The whole planet has a Lilim mindset. Or a Mammon mindset, which is even worse. > And Baron Ryoval is Bujold's Andre. House Ryoval's slogan is "Dreams Made > Flesh" after all. Actually, I saw Ryoval more as Vapula. Remember, the flesh trade was just the mundane business front, how he made the day-to-day expenses. It wasn't any especial thrill for him. Ryoval's true passion was in the horrors of his gengineering labs, complete with slave-scientists, subjects tortured and twice tortured in the name of Science, the overwhelming mad lust to *know*, to *control*, to *enslave*... Jackson's Hole, despite its flesh trade, doesn't really have an Andre. Andre lusts for the flesh himself, stronger than any of his customers do. But none of the Barons on Jackson's Hole seem to have that problem -- to them, it's just business, nothing personal. Except for Ryoval and his mad twisted creative passions and his sadistic monster labs, which are IMO Vapulan to the core. *Dark* Vapula, Vapula as not "just" a mad scientist but a deliberately sadistic one as well. You know, you're right. An IN campaign could get a *LOT* of mileage out of Baron Ryoval. _Mirror Dance_ is a must-read... > Not sure who Baron Fell maps to. Anyone have any ideas? Fell maps to Mammon, IMO. Even by Jackson's Hole standards he was an unusually greedy, acquisitive, money-grubbing SOB. Nothing mattered more to him than the bottom line; not sex, not revenge, not any other personal emotion whatsoever. Mammon, definitely. (And ironically enough, Lord Mark... now serves Marc! *g*) - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:55:04 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Michael & Laurence (was "Now that THAT'S out of my head... Charles Glasgow wrote: > I see Laurence as the young and dashing first lieutenant (Laurence is not a > 2nd lieutenant -- he may be the youngest Archangel in the Host, but he's > over a millennia past having been fledged yesterday)... and Michael as the > grizzled old sergeant-major. The officer outranks the non-com, but if the > officer knows what's good for him he's going to listen to his elder's > advice. heh. "The Captain was 21, and had achieved his rank by getting top marks in such subjects as Military History, Advanced Battlefield Tactics and International Relations. The Seargeant was 45, and had achieved his rank by being attacked by [Greeks], harpies, sea monsters and horrible things with teeth and too many legs for thirty years. He felt put upon" -T. Pratchett, Eric (paraphrased) > And in a direct confrontation, the old sergeant could tear the > young officer's head off with one eye closed and the other squinting. Yay. Cheers, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:18:19 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> Ethereal Vessel Cache How big is it? I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Marches. - -- Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:34:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Well, apparently the Devil IS a Yankees fan... ... and, really, this is an untapped mine of IN wackyness ... I mean, "interest". Somebody out there should play with this bit of sports lore in general. I, myself, figure that the Angel of Baseball is a Elohite of Stone. No demon has dared request the demonic version: the Yanks have to lose _occasionally_, but just try explaining that to the Lightbringer... :) Moegiel Kyriotate of Destiny in Service to Judgement ("Out? Out? That ball nowhere near his zone of strike. Umpire unJust. "SMASH UMPIRE! SMASH UMPIRE!") ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:32:56 -0500 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> s/he >*I got temporarily tired of the entire he/she >convention. :) Ooh, ooh! I know, use zie! It's the perfect third-person singular gender-neutral pronoun. It has the advantage of being similar to both the masculine and feminine versions, without being too close to either, has a nice correspondence to the third-person plural pronoun. Subject Object Possessive Possessive Reflexive Adjective Pronoun zie zim zir zirs zirself (zimself) they them their theirs theirselves (themselves) Examples: Subject Zie looked at the thing. Object The person looked at zim. Possessive Adjective It was zir thing. Possessive Pronoun The thing was zirs. Reflexive The person did it zirself. Great for writing RPG rules with. Enjoy! - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:44:02 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> OT: s/he - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Santiago" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 12:32 AM Subject: Re: IN> s/he > >*I got temporarily tired of the entire he/she > >convention. :) > > Ooh, ooh! I know, use zie! It's the perfect third-person > singular gender-neutral pronoun. It has the advantage of being > similar to both the masculine and feminine versions, without being > too close to either, has a nice correspondence to the third-person > plural pronoun. Unless I'm referring to someone who is definitely female, I just use "he" or "she" at random. 90+% of the time it's "he", because old habits die hard, but every now and then the coin does land on the other side. Inventing a third pronoun for use as 'gender-neutral' is, IMO, overdoing it. For inanimate or sexless objects, we already have a perfectly good pronoun -- "it". For *people*, we have "he" and "she", and I'd like to think that we're all tolerant enough to not immediately jump to the conclusion that any usage of "he" or "she" is intended as any kind of slur, as opposed to a simple attempt to speak in plain English without having to invent new rules of grammar. YMMV. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:51:49 +0800 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> OT: s/he At 12:44 AM -0500 10/18/00, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >Inventing a third pronoun for use as 'gender-neutral' is, IMO, overdoing it. >For inanimate or sexless objects, we already have a perfectly good >pronoun -- "it". For *people*, we have "he" and "she", and I'd like to >think that we're all tolerant enough to not immediately jump to the >conclusion that any usage of "he" or "she" is intended as any kind of slur, >as opposed to a simple attempt to speak in plain English without having to >invent new rules of grammar. For me, I just got tired of it in White Wolf products. Many use the plural as defacto gender neutral these days, but I agree with the above. Moe, on the other hand, is a power unto himself. I'm just glad he didn't find a way to use the word "goat" as a pronoun. - -- I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 06:27:59 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) >Interesting. So any old angel with the right training can >make an android? Contrast this with celestials, which can >only be made by Superiors or God, or human and animal souls, >which can only be made by God. Hrm . . . again, another flaw of In Nomine. In order to have Will or Perception, one *must* possess a soul. -sigh- >What are the differences between android and human souls? Do >androids have souls at all? I'd assume so, since they have >Ethereal and Celestial forces. If an android dies, what happens? >(If you haven't decided, I'd recommend that it always becomes >a dreamshade, or always becomes a ghost, or always reincarnates. >These are afterlives unlike those any other IN creatures, and >so suitable for unprecedented androids.) > >Earl Which, of course, begs the quuestion: Do they dream of electric sheep? :) If Androids sleep (and therefore possesses dreamscapes, both of which I doubt), the dreamshade option feels right, or becomes like a ghost, or always reincarnates, or get sucked into a Dreamscape created by the millions of human dreamers who dream of Blade Runner and other Cyberpunk genres . . . (I really like the andriods, BTW, they're paving the way for Hell's GECBs: Genetically Engineered Cycbernetic Bears (c) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:55:06 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Perry Lloyd" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 1:27 AM Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) > >Interesting. So any old angel with the right training can > >make an android? Contrast this with celestials, which can > >only be made by Superiors or God, or human and animal souls, > >which can only be made by God. > > Hrm . . . again, another flaw of In Nomine. In order to have Will or > Perception, one *must* possess a soul. -sigh- Not really. IIRC, there is a canonical example of something that possesses Celestial Forces but has no soul and will just vanish forever when it dies... undead. So Androids are Heaven's Undead. Well, it's a *theory*... - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:01:30 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) > > Hrm . . . again, another flaw of In Nomine. In order to have Will or >> Perception, one *must* possess a soul. -sigh- > >Not really. IIRC, there is a canonical example of something that possesses >Celestial Forces but has no soul and will just vanish forever when it >dies... undead. IIRC soul seems to be defined in IN as a stable configuration of Forces. Whether or not it can survive a corporeal death is a different matter. - -- Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:09:29 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> OT: s/he Or ... and mind, you, this doesn't work in all languages ... you can use the existing general case. Fortunately, in English the masculine form is also generic. Or you could make up words. People make up their own languages all the time. In fact, you could write everything in your new language. No one would understand you, of course.... (I have issues with certain things in English too, notably the way certain possessives are constructed. I am not, however, suggesting anyone start ending words with 'z' because of that.) Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:56:53 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Someone, PLEASE, do Kobal... pleaaase?? Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:49:10 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) - --On Wednesday, October 18, 2000 6:27 AM +0000 Perry Lloyd wrote: > (I really like the andriods, BTW, they're paving the way for Hell's > GECBs: Genetically Engineered Cycbernetic Bears (c) > I have one, and ONLY one thing to say to you. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/5056/fal99/poohborg.jpg Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Girl to Cordelia: "So what's wrong with you?" Westley: "Where to begin...?" - "Angel") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:18:43 +1000 From: "Azrael/Demigouge" Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Glasgow" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 4:55 PM Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Perry Lloyd" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 1:27 AM > Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) > > > > >Interesting. So any old angel with the right training can > > >make an android? Contrast this with celestials, which can > > >only be made by Superiors or God, or human and animal souls, > > >which can only be made by God. > > > > Hrm . . . again, another flaw of In Nomine. In order to have Will or > > Perception, one *must* possess a soul. -sigh- > > Not really. IIRC, there is a canonical example of something that possesses > Celestial Forces but has no soul and will just vanish forever when it > dies... undead. > > So Androids are Heaven's Undead. > > Well, it's a *theory*... > > -- > Chuckg The Undead have souls, just they are inextricably (is that he righ tword?...sorry if it isnt, not thinking well tonight, cold plus drowsy flu medicine= not a good manner in which to write big words) bound to their vessels, such that when the vessel is destroyed so too is the soul. Azrael/Demigouge ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:46:23 -0500 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: Sorry: Re: IN> New Archangels Oops. Sorry 'bout the multiple sending, bit of a problem with the computer I was using... it won't happen again. >:) Cthulhu _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:37:45 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> Dominic's Confessions: Day Eight On the eighth day, Dominic entered his booth warily, some part of him dreading the upcoming confession. Everyone so far had found a way to make him look the fool - even Bronwen, though he hadn't meant to; the Most Holy had, later that day, overheard two Michaelites refer to "the elephant and the casaba melon", which simply /couldn't/ be a coincidence. Instead of a person occupying the confessional, however, he found a note on his stool - "Check the other booth" - which led to another note, this one imploring Dominic to descend to the corporeal plane for a confession. Neither note was signed, and the second implied a need to maintain some secrecy, so Dominic assembled several Malakim to lurk in the specified cathedral in case of trouble, chose one of his most sturdy Vessels, and descended through the cloud layer of Heaven into the corporeal plane. He and the Virtues found themselves on the streets of Toledo, Spain, looking up at a grand example of what a cathedral should be. Obviously it paled in comparison to even Chartres or the cathedral at Mont-St.-Michel, but the Toledan cathedral was still impressive. After a moment of contemplation - no matter how many times he came to the corporeal plane, the lengths and heights to which humans would go in the name of God always impressed him - Dominic entered the cathedral through the guests' door, heading for the confessional specified. The Malakim, meanwhile, assumed I AM A TOURIST mode, and began gawking at the displays inside. There was already someone in the other part of the booth when Dominic entered, and as he closed the door behind him, a beautiful voice wafted through the grate. "Am I correct in thinking that you prefer to know the name of the person to whom you are granting confession?" Dominic paused. "I would actually rather not." The voice, he realized, was completely unhelpful in identifying its owner. "If you must, please tell me after I have named your penance, so that I am not biased by my knowledge." Dominic could see the shift of light as the figure opposite him nodded. "Very well." The voice could have - /should/ have, in Dominic's opinion - cleared its throat at this point, but its owner decided to proceed without preamble. "Father, forgive me, for I have sinned. It has been two weeks since my last confession." Dominic raised his eyebrows in surprise. "How have you sinned, my son?" "I have committed the sin of Pride, Father. I have known that I am less than our Almighty Father, but I have thought that I was not, and my actions have followed my thoughts rather than my knowledge. "I have committed the sin of Greed. When I desired something, I took it, without thought for its owner, though I knew in my heart that I should not. "I have committed the sin of Sloth. While others worked toward their goals, I sat and relaxed and was decadent, confident that those who served me would take care of my every need, though I knew that that was not so. "I have committed the sin of Lust. Last week I lay with a girl without her consent or her parents', and was not ashamed afterward. "I have committed the sin of Wrath. When one of my servants disobeyed a command, I had him executed as an example to others, and thought little of it to lose something so precious as a life. "I have committed the sin of Gluttony. I have deprived a family of nourishment for a week by consuming all of the food that they had, and completed the act by slaughtering their dog, and cooking and eating it. "I have committed the sin of Envy. It has been my place for years upon years to watch as the angels flew above me, and though I knew I could not join them, every time I have seen an angel I have wanted to fly with them, and begrudged them their closeness to God." The voice paused. "Father, these are the sins I have committed. Can you forgive me?" Dominic was taken aback. Here was a man who had unrepentantly caused unknown and untold harm to humans and humankind, and he was asking forgiveness for /everything/? The Most Holy shook his head. "I can forgive you, my son, and our Almighty Father can forgive you as well. Your penance is to walk the earth for one month, eating nothing but bread and cheese and drinking nothing but water, and becoming a model of charity, humility, and restraint to those around you. Do you accept this penance?" The light shifted again as the figure nodded. "I do. Thank you, Father." He half-stood, ready to go and perform his penance, when Dominic spoke once more. "You had wanted to tell me your name?" There was a soft, short laugh. "Most Holy, I asked only if you wanted to know, but I will tell you. "When I was young, Most Holy, you knew me as Laughter." With a cough that could have been a sob, the figure exited the booth, and while Dominic could feel the Malakim outside coming to attention, he did not himself rouse them, allowing the man to walk unmolested to and out the door. Only once he was gone did Dominic rise and exit the confessional himself, calling the Malakim to him as he strode toward the exit. "I want you," he said quietly, "to find out exactly what kind of a prank Kobal is pulling here, and get to the bottom of it. The Prince of Dark Humor does not confess to the Archangel of Judgment unless there is grand trouble afoot." And with this he stepped into a sunbeam and was gone. The Malakim dispersed into the crowd of Toledo, never noticing the man in the shadows of the cathedral who had not been there a moment before. The man shook his head. "Oh, Dominic," he said, "I only wanted to help." He pushed off from the wall against which he had been leaning, and started walking off toward the store around the corner to purchase a loaf of bread and a wedge of cheese. On his way he caught sight of one of the Malakim, stalking the crowd, and - as inobtrusively as he could - he ducked back into the shadows of the buildings, wiping the tear from his cheek. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1855 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.