From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 19 15:37:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06284 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:37:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA14810 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:36:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:36:48 -0500 Message-Id: <200010192036.PAA14810@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1858 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1858 In this digest: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) IN> Setting question Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems & an Adminny comment. Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems No more Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems & an Adminny comment. Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems IN> The Nature of Djinn Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: No more Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems & an Adminny comment. Re: IN> Just who did come up with it? Re:IN> Crusade replies. Re:IN> Crusade replies. Re: IN> Jack Chick IN Re: IN> Just who did come up with it? Re: IN> Just who did come up with it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:17:45 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) > > Ha ha ha, just as the delapidated (sp?) state of a home is a feature, >after> all, its a fixer-upper! > >No. > >-David Yes? Sorry, but I tend to view limitations of a system as being *drawbacks* rather than "features". We're free to disagree on this point, but I would ask that you not try to pull a Servitor of Laurence ability on me. - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation (KFC) perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:19:46 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) > > Essentially, this means that dogs, well known and bred for their keen >sense > > of smell, do not have this inherent talent reflected in their > > characteristics unless the GM decides to ignore the rules at stated in >the > > core book. Dogs, known for their ability to track where humans cannot, >are > > unfortunately *screwed* in that department due to their lack of a >Perception > > attribute. > >I think the easiest fix for this would be to give dog NPCs reasonably high >levels in doggy skills like tracking, or give all dogs non-negative >defaults in those skills (or both). It's really just another >reflection of the fact that stat+skill systems are _bad_, especially >ones with low granularity like IN. I don't see it as a setting >problem. > >JFM I'd agree, I don't see it as being a *setting* problem, but a *game mechanics* problem. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:25:54 -0400 From: "Andrew Stoner" Subject: IN> Setting question Has anyone out there done anything with a cyberpunk-style IN setting? I can't imagine that I'm the first to think of this, but I can't seem to find anything on the web. Also, are there archives out there? I'd assume there are, but I can't seem to find an address for them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:36:15 -0400 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > > > It's really just another reflection of the fact that stat+skill > > systems are _bad_, especially ones with low granularity like IN. > > (I guess this is on-topic for IN.) I have no strong feelings > about this, never having worked with such a system, but I'm > curious: why are they bad? I *do* see the trip-ups to a > coarse granularity, but what's the catch to stat+skill? Suppose we have a brilliant student who has just started to learn -- Int 8 Math/1 -- and his experienced but average mentor -- Int 4 Math/5. They would both have a skill of 8+1 = 4+5 = 9. Realistically, their "performance envelopes" should be quite different. Dramatically, the old salt and the bright young middy serve different purposes. Fix? I have no idea. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:36:05 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) > >yes, yes, yes, we've already dealt with this before so I'll just shut up >now > >and go back to wanting to use the original characteristic set up from the > >original french game. > >For the benefit of those who have not seen the original... well, mostly >just for _my_ benefit, would you give a brief exp. on the original setup? > >Cthulhu Brief, yes. I'll try. The original game is NOT a stat+skill system. There are six basic characteristics, if I can remember them (I don't have the book with me.): Force (physical strength) Volonte' (mental strength, intelligence and will wrapped into one) Agilite' (agility) Precision (dexterity, as in fine motor control) Perception (guess what *that* means . . .) Apparance (appearance) Scale is 1 to 6 for skills (essentially the same list as the american "translation") and characteristics; it's NOT a linear 1-6 scale. Your rating is cross-referenced on The Chart with the difficulty of the action, and you have to roll equal or less than the Target Number on the chart. In Nomine Satanis / Magna Veritas (INS/MV) uses a weird system they call the "d666" system. The first digit is the ten's place, the second is the one's place, the third is degree of success or failure. 11,12,13,14,15,16,21,22,23,24,25,26, 31,32,33,34,35,36,41,42,43,44,45,46, 51,52,53,54,55,56,61,62,63,64,65,66 Example Target Number could be 24. You'd have to roll a one or a two on the ten's place die and a 1,2,3, or 4 on the one's place die. It's very interesting. The powers are not divided into songs and attunements, they're all just "powers" with a PP (power point) cost and sometimes a roll, sometimes not, but no two things are ever added and rolled against, iirc. There are distinctions and many (most?) were unchanged in "translation". There are no forces in the french game, everyone has the six characteristics, human, animal, ethereal god, or other, iirc. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "There's no gravity, the world just sucks." Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) > > > Ha ha ha, just as the delapidated (sp?) state of a home is a feature, > >after> all, its a fixer-upper! > > > >No. > > > >-David > > Yes? Sorry, but I tend to view limitations of a system as being *drawbacks* > rather than "features". We're free to disagree on this point, but I would > ask that you not try to pull a Servitor of Laurence ability on me. > > > > -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation (KFC) I think the coarse granularity of the system is what helps to keep its focus narrow... when is the perception level of a dog actually going to _matter_ in the grand campaign between Heaven and Hell for the souls of humanity? Besides, if you really want those extra levels o' stuff, there _is_ always GURPS: IN. GURPS handles all that kind of thing, should it be needed. But a rpg doesn't have to model every possible mode of behavior and every possible statistical combination. Sometimes having a more narrow focus (at the expense of the occasional oddity) _is_ a feature, not a bug. Especially when there's a perfectly servicable option for those who want more detail. - --JT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:53:54 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems >Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > > > It's really just another reflection of the fact that stat+skill > > systems are _bad_, especially ones with low granularity like IN. > >(I guess this is on-topic for IN.) I have no strong feelings >about this, never having worked with such a system, but I'm >curious: why are they bad? I *do* see the trip-ups to a >coarse granularity, but what's the catch to stat+skill? > >Earl Well, it means that joe-angel with Agility 12 and Large Weapon 1 is going to weild a katana much better than the human martial artist who's been training for decades, since he maxes out at Agility 6 and Large Weapon 6. (And yes, there is mentioned an option in the GMG to allow humans to have higher than 6 skills.) Overall, I dislike it because it means that you can overcome poor skill levels with high attribute levels. And, raising attribute level is often cheaper in the long run, since it raises the effective level of ALL the skills that are based upon it. Example: Angel has Agility 4, Large Weapon 6, total is 10. Demon has Agility 10, Large Weapon 1, total is 11. The angel is *much* better trained with a sword, and the demon just barely has training with a sword (according to their skill levels). Doesn't mean much to the angel, b/c the demon's total is still higher and is therefore better with a sword. Also, Demon can purchase all his Agility based skills at Skill/1 , and still have a guarenteed higher effective skill rating than Angel, no matter how many points Angel puts into his skills. I find this particularly unjust when it comes to Intelligence based skills. Someone with Int 12 has all Int skills at 13+ Yes, he *is* insanely intelligent, but why does that give him access to knowledge which I would presume only someone who'd studied for YEARS (skill/6) would possess? Of course the GM reserves the right to muddle endlessly with all this. - -Perry, KFC who becomes a Shedite of Criticism when Fallen perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:54:09 -0400 From: "John J. Maurer, Esq." Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Actually I LIKE Stat+Skill systems or some variant. It makes sense that someone with a high stat would need less training to do the same thing. However, In Nomine's system is just too coarse. You are either ALWAYS or NEVER succeeding depending on which end of the curve you are on. I ususally just suffer through it because the setting is sufficiently cool, but one variant I use is a 3d6 where the check digit ALSO determines success or failure. Speaks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:59:42 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems & an Adminny comment. > > >> It's really just another reflection of the fact that stat+skill > > >> systems are _bad_, especially ones with low granularity like IN. > >I'm really curious as to why its bad, myself, and how IN could do better. >THe coarse granualrity and low distribution curve of the 2d6 success roll >has issues, but its not that bad. THe issues I have are that distribution >isn't significant enough, and the learning curve is awfully high (my >mortal's game has show the problem of mortals rolling against stats, >without modifiers, and while skills are better, there are still issues). An entire subscription is more like it, from where I stand. >There are only about 4 styles of skill systems out there: stat+skill (IN, >WW), Stats moidify skills (d20, Hero), stats have nearly no affect on >skills >(Palladium, ShadowRun), and no-skill/no dice systems (Amber). They all >work well, in different ways, but the first two seem the most realistic to >me. You innate characteristics have a decided impact on your training, >skills and ability to use things and succeed. I don;'t know which is >better; a lot depends on the success curve you're aiming for, realism, and >other game style factors... I know that I believe I would prefer a system in which stats modify skills. I haven't seen the recent D&D third, but I'm guessing that's the case. I believe that stats *should* have some effect on skills, but shouldn't have the power to throw them *way* out of proportion. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:06:48 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems > Actually I LIKE Stat+Skill systems or some variant. It makes sense that > someone with a high stat would need less training to do the same thing. The only time it breaks down is at very low levels of skill versus very high levels. But better stats will trump better training once the better stats have *decent* training. :-) As a member of a sword-swinging organization, I know that it always is humbling to have some strong-armed, fast yahoo spanking you silly within a week, but it happens. Sure, when he's first out, you might have the edge on him... but after he learns a few tricks, it's all downhill from there. Angels do that to humans, but on a much grander scale. They intuitively know and learn so much more than humans ever could. > Speaks Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:09:45 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems >Suppose we have a brilliant student who has just started to >learn -- Int 8 Math/1 -- and his experienced but average >mentor -- Int 4 Math/5. They would both have a skill of >8+1 = 4+5 = 9. > >Realistically, their "performance envelopes" should be quite >different. Dramatically, the old salt and the bright young middy >serve different purposes. > >Fix? I have no idea. Ooooo, well presented, Neel. :) The fix might be to attach "flavors" to the skill rolls. Perhaps "knowledge/experience" for the mentor, a kind of knowledge which is relatively fixed in nature, versus "intuitive/experiment/creative" for the student. Say there's a problem in which Math is needed. The mentor rolls to relate old experienced knowledge to the problem. The student rolls to relate his intuition and experimental ideas to the problem. I'd wager that most of the time, the mentor would have a better handle on what's going on. The student will succeed where the mentor does not when you introduce information which the mentor did not learn/does not know, but the student does. Switch skills to Repair Lightsaber. Whereas the mentor can take apart and rebuild a lightsaber behind his back, switching the crystals within if necessary (which the student cannot), the student might be better at designing a new kind of lightsaber, because his knowledge has not become too rigid and unaccepting of new ideas. His schemata have not "fossilized" if you will. He's willing to take risks, perhaps be he doesn't have any "sure" ways that work under his belt yet. Flavoring would be a GM fix. A mechanics fix would be to somehow account for experience in terms of numbers? Maybe a +1 per number of years studied? Like, +1 per two years? I dunno. Something like that. - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation (KFC) perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:12:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: No more Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems & an Adminny comment. Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:56:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems & an Adminny comment. At 11:10 AM -0500 10/19/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >>>Jason F. McBrayer wrote: >>> >>> It's really just another reflection of the fact >>>that stat+skill systems are _bad_, especially ones >>>with low granularity like IN. >> >>(I guess this is on-topic for IN.) >Sure -- so long as it doesn't turn into a GURPS/Hero/CoC/Abberant/Nobilis/d20/younameitbutit'snotIN >discussion. O:> Then it will be off-topic and the >List Admin will sic Ogiel on you. (perk) Hulk Smash? Erm. No Smash. Ogiel just hear name. (/perk) While here, Ogiel cur-i-ous: any tap-keys-on-box-and-make-mutewords-on-dry-water-bright-wall-people have mutewords-on-skins of Lonely Big-Bright-Winged-Person of Song? Moe need Lonely Big-Bright-Winged-Person of Song for mutewords-on-skins tale he making, and Moe says he too lazy to make mutewords-on-skin himself. Moe says to say "thank you." Thank you. Ogiel go have beer now. Microbrews good. Moegiel Kyriotate of Destiny in Service to Children ("You try to pass big yellow box on wheels while it still let out children. Hulk Smash.") ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:13:18 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) >I think the coarse granularity of the system is what helps to keep its >focus >narrow... when is the perception level of a dog actually going to _matter_ >in >the grand campaign between Heaven and Hell for the souls of humanity? If the dog is the dog Destined to be the pet of the Antichrist? >But a rpg doesn't have to model every possible mode of behavior and every >possible statistical combination. Sometimes having a more narrow focus (at >the expense of the occasional oddity) _is_ a feature, not a bug. Especially >when there's a perfectly servicable option for those who want more detail. Ah-ha! Yes, yes, yes, a more narrow focus. Keeping your eyes on the ball, so to speak. So, yes, I'd buy that. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:20:21 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems >Actually I LIKE Stat+Skill systems or some variant. It makes sense that >someone with a high stat would need less training to do the same thing. but when the characteristic swallows the skill so easily . . . WAOH! Maybe that's the frickin' problem. Maybe the characteristics should have a lower potential rating than the skills do. Int 1-6 Skill 1-12 . . . Hrm . . . Double the characteristic for rolls against it. Perhaps scale the characteristic cost 1pt => Int 1 2pts => Int 2 4pts => Int 4 8pts => Int 5 16pts => Int 6 Note that, iirc, the above scale cost is lifted from the french game (where the scale cost is applied to skills, I can't recall the cost scale for attributes). But the doubling wouldn't work for straight characteristic checks. grrr... >However, In Nomine's system is just too coarse. You are either ALWAYS or >NEVER succeeding depending on which end of the curve you are on. And my players with low-levels songs are testement to that fact. Most refuse to purchase a Song at a low level because "it's just not worth it" >I ususally just suffer through it because the setting is sufficiently cool, >but one variant I use is a 3d6 where the check digit ALSO determines >success >or failure. > >Speaks how's that work? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:23:08 EDT From: Galen Silversmith Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems > Return-Path: perrylloyd@hotmail.com > Ooooo, well presented, Neel. :) > > The fix might be to attach "flavors" to the skill rolls. Perhaps > "knowledge/experience" for the mentor, a kind of knowledge which is > relatively fixed in nature, versus "intuitive/experiment/creative" for the > student. There are other options, as well. One is to affect autosuccesses. Where the difficulty is less than skill (or skill * multiplier), the old master can take an autosuccess at some reasonable level (2 or 3, in my games. 1 is a by-theskin-of-your-teeth success, usually). Another is to make some actions sufficiently difficult that you need to be at least x tall to ride... er, x stat to test. a neophite should not have any chance, other than pure luck, to solve an anyalitical topology problem. a professor should have a shot. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:21:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems My gaming group uses a home-brewed system that relates attributes to skills, but not by simple addition. Skills are rolled on percentile dice. Every time you improve in a skill, you go up by one "learn rate," which is 2% to 4% for an average human. The exact value of the learn rate depends on the attributes that relate to the skills. 6% is a VERY good learn rate for a very senior human character with high attributes. Thus, in our system ("FuRPiG"), an angel with, say three times human intelligence, might have a math learn rate of 9%. It would rapidly overtake a human mathematician, but would still only start at 9% in math. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:35:32 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Nature of Djinn Hey I was making a note on exactly how Djinn personalities work and someone recently brought up that Djinn seem very miserable in hell. Well I think basically everyone should be on some level it's HELL after all and your not sharing the place with the most corjual of neighbors...however even a Cherub fallen should have some motivation beyond Apathy (though that does help) to not redeem. In my opinion the Djinn represent more than the Balseraphs the innate selfishness of Hell (I guess Malakim can detect them because Balseraphs have more flaire for it). Because a Cherub has the focus of a loving parental gaurdian; a Djinn either completely devotes himself to himself becomming a hendonist, power loving pyramid climber (Illuminati Djinn!), or maschochist (utter self loathing in the style of the worst human excess). Other Djinn that I think are more dangerous are those who remain obsessed with humans and being the EXACT opposite of a Cherub. People assume the Balseraphs or Shedim are the best tempters and truth be told even the Habbalah and Impudites have better resonances for getting close to a mortal to bring him over...however no one in Hell understands or takes the time to eradicate the spirit of one particular human like the Djinn do. In the Gamemaster's Handbook for In Nomine there was a mortal named Professor Shaw whose Fate was the destruction of a Student's career out of pure malignancy. He'd suffered a malignant tumor, a divorce, and the death of his mother over the course of a year. Now imagine that entire year one of his students was a pretty quiet young thing who seduced his wife, changed his mother's pills on her doorstep, and used the Song of Entropy on him....slowly constantly while focusing on little things during that time. Maybe it was because he was a devoted teacher before and the Djinn used to gaurd that type of person or maybe because her assignment was to help a local gang of hoodlum (fellow demons) and her role was a student and HE DARED care...or maybe she choose him at random. Attracting a Djinn's obsession is the worst thing you can do imaginable I believe and why Beleth enjoys driving people to insanity...she's either obsessed with Blandine and wants to drive her over the edge by turning Dreams (not the opposite of Fear-Nightmares is) to Hell or she hates each individual human equally.' Freddy Krueger makes an excellent Djinn because if he was a Djinn of nightmares who had his role destroyed, nothing is more pleasurable than taking one's revenge on the bloodline of your killers... Few demons bother with that kinduv obsession really. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:44:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Another alternative to adding skills and stats is to use stats as "backup rolls" for the related skill. E.g., you roll against your math skill and blow it. You can then roll against your intelligence. "Oops. Silly me, I forgot this method only works for positive values." This can give you a mechanic for the flavor difference between experience and raw ability. If you blow your skill roll, the stat roll may preserve you from total failure, but it won't be as good as the trained effort. "You whack his sword aside in a gesture that is totally inelegant, but your sheer speed sees you through." "You're quite sure you need to use at least five differential equations to solve this ... and that it'll take you several more cups of coffee to set them up." "That Song is not usually sung in quite so many keys, but you did belt out the gist of it." To adapt IN to it, you would need to do something like first roll d666 against (say) twice the skill bonus alone, then, if failing, against twice the stat alone, then taking one off the CD if you succeed. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:55:22 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: No more Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems & an Adminny comment. >>Sure -- so long as it doesn't turn into a >GURPS/Hero/CoC/Abberant/Nobilis/d20/younameitbutit'snotIN >>discussion. O:> Then it will be off-topic and the >>List Admin will sic Ogiel on you. > >(perk) > >Hulk Smash? > >Erm. No Smash. Ogiel just hear name. > >(/perk) > >While here, Ogiel cur-i-ous: any >tap-keys-on-box-and-make-mutewords-on-dry-water-bright-wall-people >have mutewords-on-skins of Lonely >Big-Bright-Winged-Person of Song? Moe need Lonely >Big-Bright-Winged-Person of Song for >mutewords-on-skins tale he making, and Moe says he too >lazy to make mutewords-on-skin himself. > >Moe says to say "thank you." Thank you. > >Ogiel go have beer now. Microbrews good. > >Moegiel >Kyriotate of Destiny in Service to Children >("You try to pass big yellow box on wheels while it >still let out children. Hulk Smash.") Erm. If I translated this right, you're asking for comments on the Outcast Archangel of Song? I don't think there are any; the first I've heard of it is a throwaway line in the write-up of the Grigori. So we know it's a Grigori, and Outcast. ;^) In all seriousness, I would hasten to point out something, not that's been written, but can be deduced: Israfel, Angel of Music, is *not* an Archangel. But at first, Song would seem like a subset of Music. Why, then, would Song be an Archangelic Word? My answer: the AA of Song was raised when music *was*, almost entirely, song. In primitive cultures, musical instruments beyond simple percussion would be extremely difficult to make even after they were invented. Music was song, the song's lyrics carried the purpose of the music - worship, morality, history, humor. Furthermore, Music is broader, but without song it is overall more limited - it conveys emotions and mindsets, while song avails itself of the power of words as well as music, making the focused Word actually more powerful than Music. Add to that the celestial connotations of Songs as the tools of celestials - not increasing the AA's Word-forces or Essence, but definitely making them powerful in celestial affairs - and Archangelship seems more understandable. William ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 2000 12:30:04 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Just who did come up with it? On Thu, 19 October 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > I need to find a copy of it (my girlfriend is trying > to get her head around the idea of Djinn as anything > but apathetic sluggards, a situation that I'm afraid > I've unwittingly encouraged. Hey, it works for me), > and I remember the bit as being pretty good at getting > into Azzie's head. I'll check my hard drive when I get home. In the meantime, why not refer her to http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/Resources/djinnmindset.html ? I've been told it's quite good. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:41:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re:IN> Crusade replies. On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Cthulhu wrote: > There's a very good reason why only younger angels would be involved in > this, being; older ones will remember the _last_ time that an all-out > attack on a rival superior happened - Vephar and Oannes. Not quite. Corruption is as close an opposite number to Purity as I've heard, and Uriel wiped the floor with Beelzebub without Infernal reprisals. (Of course, if Beelzebub attacked *first*...) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re:IN> Crusade replies. Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:15:31 -0500 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: Re:IN> Crusade replies. From: "Maurice Lane" >I'll be working various demonic reactions in general, >but I didn't specifically think about Furfur. He'll >be all over this, indeed. :) >I was just thinking about this, and something came to >mind. >There's a very good reason why only younger angels >would be involved in this, being; older ones will >remember the _last_ time that an all-out attack on a >rival superior happened - Vephar and Oannes. >As you will recall, after the destruction of Vephar, >the entire force of Hell mobilised. The demons overan >the earth, Baal got ready to fight Micjael, etc. And >then, finally, Belial (which is a nice tie-in) struck >at Oannes and the Archangel went *boom*. > >Practical upshot of all this is, that if the host >takes out one of the Demon Princes, there will be >hell to pay. The entire force of Hell will step in, >even the dead Princes enemies - it's a matter of >principle. >The host cannot be allowed to think that they can >take out a rival Superior with no retaliation at all, >or Lucifer knows who they would target yet. I >can't imagine that Belial was precisley close to the >Demon Prince of the Oceans, but he still wiped out >Oannes for the crime. > >If one of the DP's is killed, nothing less than the >loss of an Archangel will be excepted by Hell. And it >will probably be Gabriel, so as to keep the balance. >And _all_ the Princes will fight back, even Haagenti >and Furfur. > >Of course, maybe I'm totally wrong here. Your call. > >Cthulhu On the contrary, you've raised an interesting point. However, I don't think that the 'historical' evidence quites supports it. IIRC, Beelzebub was taken down by Uriel*, and Magog was entombed by (David and Khalid?), without Superior-level payback. Ambigious (nobody wanted to mess with Uriel when he was pissed off, and Magog could be considered as having failed his entrance exams by getting locked up so fast), but enough to allow handwaving. I'm also considering the time factor, here. The Oannes / Vephar matter was Way Back When, after all: Hell hadn't been as entrenched on Earth as it is now, and any sign of weakness could have been fatal. But these days, many Superiors (IMHO) aren't so much jaded as ... resigned. Damned little goes on to change the status of the War, despite the best efforts of the lean and hungry new Superiors. The New Crusade was, after all, originally the result of the frustration of a younger generation of angels with their elders. These kinds of pressures _must_ be going on on the Other Side - and the Other Side has more newbies in power. Can Nybbas or Fleurity take seriously the idea of "an eye for an eye, an Archangel for a Demon Prince?" Does Haagenti take seriously the implications of letting one more of the Old Guard slip into history? Does Hell even _have_ a sense of why they fought in the Rebellion anymore? Beats me: I ain't playing in your game (more's the pity). If your political map doesn't fit my writeup, change the writeup. I won't mind. :) Moe *I had to look it up for an upcoming Oops thingy. Surprised me, too. I'm betting Larry wants like _anything_ to get a Prince, just like his dad... :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:07:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Jack Chick IN Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 07:23:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Dykes Subject: Re: IN> Jack Chick IN >And in researching this (like I didn't have fun! 8-), >I found this tract online: > http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0045/0045_01.asp >It features Luci watching his favorite show >(Bewitched), holding his quarterly progress meeting, a >servant of Fleurity in action, and should cure any of >your players of wanting to play infernals, simply >because they're so pathetically ugly. Except for Lucifer, of course. Then again, I've always suspected that Mr. Chick had a nice, barely-sublimated homoerotic streak going. Heh. Ladies, gentlemen and others, I hereby declare Jack Chick to be a Soldier of Lust (granted a rare Band Force - Habbalite, naturally). Someone want to email him with the good news*? :) Moe *Pardon the pun. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:19:09 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Just who did come up with it? At 9:02 AM -0700 10/19/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >I need to find a copy of it (my girlfriend is trying >to get her head around the idea of Djinn as anything >but apathetic sluggards, a situation that I'm afraid >I've unwittingly encouraged. Hey, it works for me), Apathetic sluggards is only half the story. Anal-retentive, obsessive-compulsive apathetic sluggards is a lot closer, IMC. Stuff they don't care about, they don't care about. Stuff they do, however, is ALL FREAKIN' CONSUMING. My favorite Djinn, Daedbot, I had as a Jumped Servitor of Purity who Jumped after being forced to kill a unicorn who had also been a lover to Daedbot and to Daedbot's Attuned, the Attuned getting killed in the process too. (I left open whether the Unicorn was a positive or negative thing.) So, it's nigh impossible to rouse Daedbot now, unless there's unicorn imagery involved. She has hundreds of thousands of little unicorn statues, from the cute to the profane. She once burned down a full theater simply because they were showing The Glass Menagerie. When she saw an actual Unicorn (don't ask) she *freaked,* trying to kill it by any means necessary.... For another take, think Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man, except if someone disrupts his television watching schedule, he starts killing people. - -- I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:36:44 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Just who did come up with it? > For another take, think Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man, except if someone > disrupts his television watching schedule, he starts killing people. We had a Djinn named Leek who watched Gilligans Island reruns every day at 8 PM, and always brought a big mac and fries and a coke home from McDonalds right before. His apartment was littered with empty bags and the onions from the burger that he picked out of it. Two feet deep. Nasty. The angels ambushed him, stole his McDonalds and beat him unconscious. While driving him somewhere to interrogate him, they ate his burger (one used his Seraph resonance to see if it really was an all-beef patty...) and then, to wake him up, splashed the coke in his face. The fries were used as an interrogation device. The Djinn never stood a chance. Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1858 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.