From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 19 22:53:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07205 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:53:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA19562 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:51:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:51:51 -0500 Message-Id: <200010200351.WAA19562@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1859 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1859 In this digest: Re: IN> Just who did come up with it? Re: IN> Jack Chick IN Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) IN> Mercurians and the Way of Harmony. Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: IN> Mercurians and the Way of Harmony. Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems IN> Secretly Replaced... IN> New Power: Holy Will Re: IN> Secretly Replaced... IN> Superiors 4 Re: IN> Mercurians and the Way of Harmony. IN> FICTION -- The War and the Sword Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions Re: IN> New Archangels> (which now has a pop reference. Go figure) IN> New Hellish society Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems Re: IN> Secretly Replaced... Re: Re:IN> Crusade replies. Re: IN> FICTION -- The War and the Sword ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:40:54 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Just who did come up with it? At 9:02 AM -0700 10/19/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Somebody (I think Eric Burns) posted something here a >few months back about Asmodeus, the Game, and why >there wasn't a chance in Hell that he was ever going >to be Redeemable. > >I need to find a copy of it (my girlfriend is trying >to get her head around the idea of Djinn as anything >but apathetic sluggards, a situation that I'm afraid >I've unwittingly encouraged. Hey, it works for me), >and I remember the bit as being pretty good at getting >into Azzie's head. Thanks. It's http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/2000/6/1-1693.txt under the "most likely to Redeem" thread. In response to your own post, actually. - -- I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:41:40 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Jack Chick IN Bruce Dykes wrote: > > http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Jack_Chick.html > > Dave, you neglected the useful bit of Jack Chick > mythology...the Catholic Church. No, I did mention that. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:46:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Robots of Jean: Androids (beta) Perry Lloyd wrote: > Yes? Sorry, but I tend to view limitations of a system as being *drawbacks*> rather than "features". You're talking about a conceptual limitation, not a mechanical limitation. "Will and Perception is tied to having a soul" = conceptual limitation. "There's no convenient mechanic in place for a dog's sense of smell" = mechanical limitation. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:32:22 -0400 From: mdrozd Subject: IN> Mercurians and the Way of Harmony. Well I wanted to play Mercurians that wasn't apt to become damsels in distress. Given the Mercurian disonance condition it gets a little trick. So, pulling from my limited real world knowledge..I thought that Aikido would be a good martial art for my likely to be battered PC to know. Its more of a system of self-defense than a martial art and it stresses resolving conflicts in non-injurious ways. The forms concentrate on harmonizing with your opponents motion (including getting out of the way) and unbalancing them. This is combined with wrist locks, pins and throws. All of which are very restrained compared to other martial arts, such as ju'jitsu. Which of these constuites a violent action? If Mercurian A redirects an attack from Thug B and Thug B hits ground, does Mercurian A get dissonant--even if Thug B isn't hurt? What if Mercurian A pins Thug B to the ground? Erich, I would especially appriciate your imput here. "Eat hot flaming plasmic pulse cannon death, you saucer-alien human-abducting alien bastards!" -- Captain Ano Itai, EAS Dauntless ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:51:55 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems "Krishnaswami, Neel" wrote: > Suppose we have a brilliant student who has just started to > learn -- Int 8 Math/1 -- and his experienced but average > mentor -- Int 4 Math/5. They would both have a skill of > 8+1 = 4+5 = 9. > > Realistically, their "performance envelopes" should be quite > different. Dramatically, the old salt and the bright young middy > serve different purposes. > > Fix? I have no idea. Any system that includes the effects of stats on skills will have this problem to a certain extent. (GURPS character with IQ 17 and 1/2 point spent on Mathematics vs. character with IQ 11 and 10 points spent on Mathematics.) The alternative is to assume that two people with equal amounts of experience will be equal, even if one is far smarter than the other, which makes no more sense. In a more complicated system, you can require a certain skill level to accomplish certain things, and there are other workarounds. In Nomine is not meant to reflect detailed skill differentiations, however, so this is more of a granularity problem than a stat+skill problem. (There are some options to make high skills more valuable in the CPG, though.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:03:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and the Way of Harmony. On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, mdrozd wrote: > Which of these constuites a violent action? If Mercurian A redirects an > attack from Thug B and Thug B hits ground, does Mercurian A get > dissonant--even if Thug B isn't hurt? What if Mercurian A pins Thug B to > the ground? I usually judge Mercurian Dissonance on intent and caution. If the Mercurian acted with intent to harm the human then he receives Dissonance, whether the human was actually injured or not. Also, if the Mercurian did not intend to harm the human but his carelessness caused harm, that causes Dissonance. I use driving a car as an example. If a Mercurian aims to run a human down, that is worth Dissonance. If the Mercurian hits a human by accident, and the accident was caused by his own negligance (driving too fast for the conditions, not paying attention to the road, and so forth), that is worth Dissonance. If the Mercurian hits a human by accident, and there was no way he could have prevented it (unexpectedly hydroplaning into the human even though he was being careful), that is *not* worth Dissonance. The Mercurian will probably feel bad, however (and may even develop pseudoDissonance if he is not careful). Now, to tie that into the aikido example. If the Mercurian redirects the Thug into the ground without hurting him, this is a questionable action for one of the Friends of Man. If he did it with intent to harm the human and just didn't roll well enough, that is worth Dissonance. If he did not intend to harm the human but was careless with his throw and hurts him anyway, that is worth Dissonance. If he skillfully directs the human into a soft landing spot with his throw and inflicts no harm, that is worth no Dissonance. But the Mercurian needs to be aware that the risk exists. Any kind of martial arts use against a human will be risky for a Mercurian, however. Even immobilizing grips hurt, and it's *real* easy to hurt someone doing it. A Mercurian who uses them on a human is playing with fire. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 2000 23:42:10 -0000 From: "Chris Rose" Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:09:45 GMT Perry Lloyd wrote: > >>Suppose we have a brilliant student who has just started to >>learn -- Int 8 Math/1 -- and his experienced but average >>mentor -- Int 4 Math/5. They would both have a skill of >>8+1 = 4+5 = 9. >> >>Realistically, their "performance envelopes" should be quite >>different. Dramatically, the old salt and the bright young middy >>serve different purposes. >> >>Fix? I have no idea. > >Ooooo, well presented, Neel. :) > >The fix might be to attach "flavors" to the skill rolls. Perhaps >"knowledge/experience" for the mentor, a kind of knowledge which is >relatively fixed in nature, versus "intuitive/experiment/creative" for the >student. > Another idea is to use an idea hinted at in Vampire 1st ed, but never clearly worked with. Abandon the idea that a skill has to go with a praticular stat. Angel : Low corp (str 3), high celestial forces(per 6), and a high fighting skill (say 5) , againsta demon with 6/3/4 respectively. Angel spends a round watching the demon, analyzing his fighting style - which would be a roll of PERCEPTION + FIGHTING , and rolls a success. He then roll sIntelligence + fighting to know teh weaknesses of that style, and begs to the GM for a bonus, since he's worked out a weakness. Use skills with different stats. Fighting skills are easily applied to intelligence and perception. Try all sorts of combinations. (Tries to think up a line about Ogiel, who I think should become the official List Mascot), -=watching somebody fight, and then ignoring them coz they're not worth it .. But I don't even claim to be a writer of Moe's calibre, so I won't try. - --- Chris ________________________________________________________________ Get Email, News, Links and The Best Selection at http://AnimeNation.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:42:20 +0930 From: gnezda Subject: IN> Secretly Replaced... Just wondering, how liberal are you guys with the Kobalite servitor attunement 'Secretly Replaced...'? Do you say that as long as the player can find *some* similarity between the two items, it's allowed, thus encouraging creativity? ie turn a gun into a flower, the connection being both were produced in the year 2000? Or do you say that there must be a *physical* similarity? ie a gun couldn't turn into a flower, since they're both physically very different? Obviously, with the first one, there'd have to be some game proof that the connection exists, otherwise players can simply say anything to justify. So, what's your take on it? Milan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:17:27 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> New Power: Holy Will I thought this up in class today. It's incredibly powerful, so it should be used with care - most don't know they /can/ do it - and yes, it can be used by /anybody/ who can use Songs. - -EDG *** Holy Will: This power allows its user to draw upon the will of others in order to increase his chances to perform a Song. The others must willingly cooperate with the performer, but if they do so, it allows them to add their Forces in the required area to the performer's, for the purpose of using the Song. The character must roll Will to activate the power; the check digit of a successful roll, which is /multiplied/ by the amount of Essence used to raise it plus one (i.e., spending 1 Essence doubles the CD; spending 5 multiplies it by 6), indicates the number of willing participants who can add their Forces, starting with the one closest to the user and moving outward. It's wise to conserve a little Essence, though - you still need to power the Song! Understandably, however, this can produce some /incredible/ Songs; rumor has it that a powerful Angel of Stone once used this to power a Corporeal Song of Shields that protected the entire planet Earth from an incoming asteroid. Anybody who can use Songs can use this power. Angels and demons using it have some interesting variations: - - Cherubim may request Forces of anybody to whom they are attuned, no matter where that person is. - - Kyriotates automatically add the natural appropriate Forces of /all/ of their current hosts to the total. - - Djinn may add the Forces of anybody to whom they are attuned, within a radius in yards of the Djinn's Celestial Forces. - - Lilim may add the Forces of anybody on whom they have a Geas-hook, up to the level of the potential Geas, within a radius in yards of the Lilim's Celestial Forces. - - Shedim may automatically add the appropriate Forces of their current host to the total. - - Anyone whom an Impudite has charmed within the last (Impudite's Will) hours /must/ add their Forces to her Song. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:33:29 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Secretly Replaced... At 07:12 PM 10/19/00, you wrote: >Just wondering, how liberal are you guys with the Kobalite servitor >attunement 'Secretly Replaced...'? >... >So, what's your take on it? I'd go with physical similarity, unless it was particularly funny. "Billy, why in tarnation d'you have a /tulip/ in yer holster?" Judging by the original commercial, though, I think the spirit of the thing is in the physical similarity. - -EDG "We've secretly replaced the fine coffee served here with dirt. Let's see if Roger Fox notices..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:31:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Superiors 4 Hah, I finally got my comp copies! Sorry, Emily, I included your note about Anne Marlowe's "how to stop time," but someone in production STILL capitalized it. Maybe I should have mailed a hardcopy with big red circles drawn around it.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:52:26 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and the Way of Harmony. In a message dated 10/19/00 6:04:24 PM Central Daylight Time, gantr@NKU.EDU writes: << Any kind of martial arts use against a human will be risky for a Mercurian, however. Even immobilizing grips hurt, and it's *real* easy to hurt someone doing it. A Mercurian who uses them on a human is playing with fire.>> I guess Mercurians who want to learn martial arts would have to practice with other angels. I wondered about that, since I have a Mercurian of Creation who studies martial arts as part of his bartending qualifications. I always figured that if a Mercurian hit someone with his car would get dissonance, even if it could not be avoided. The same way a Kyriotate would get dissonance for losing a host to an exploding bomb it had no prior knowledge of. I would, however, make it much easier to get rid of the dissonance. Perhaps only 2 or 3 days at the tether, or a rather simple method of atonement. Reverend Brian A. Rogers BillionSix@aol.com ICQ# 22544590 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:54:46 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> FICTION -- The War and the Sword Every couple of months, this durn Muse just reaches out and grabs me by the frontal lobes and *forces* me to write things that my normally uncreative self can't hope to compose... .. anyway, at least I managed to finish this one in one episode rather than leave an unfinished story dangling. I hope you like it. - --------------------------------- The War and the Sword by Charles Glasgow The tall, muscular figure stood in an alleyway in Jerusalem and looked at the building across the street. His stern blue eyes gazed out from an old face, a powerful face, a face that had seen a million battlefields and had known a million million bloody conflicts. -There it is-, he thought to himself. -The home of one of the very few moderate Palestinian mullahs still left in Jerusalem, one of the last supporters of the peace process.- Belshezar, Impudite Servitor of the War, aka "Captain Ravid Tischler" of the Israeli Army, looked at his men as they rode through the streets of Jerusalem's Palestinian sector in the back of an army truck. "All right, troops, our intel has *positively* pinpointed the terrorist cell at this address. You've seen the maps, you know the layout, you know the plan. These are the bastards who masterminded the lynchings of our soldiers, and now it's our turn to go make them *pay*. We go in, we go in *hard*, and we take NO prisoners! Those are our orders, and that is our mission. Are we clear on this, people?!?" "YES, SIR!" "Good. Load up and check weapons, troops, we'll reach the jump-off point in ten minutes." - -And after Belshezar leads Israeli troops in a raid against that peaceful man of God's home in his Role as an Israeli army officer-, the battle-scarred Superior thought, -the outrage that the provocation causes will cause bloody carnage to explode all over this part of the Middle East. No one will care that the soldiers had intended to raid somewhere else and only came to this address 'by mistake'. If this 'accident' occurs on schedule then the Palestinians will have their final provocation, and The War will have a field day. And if it doesn't occur, then The War loses big-time. So it's a good thing I'm here to watch over things just in case, although I really hope my interference won't be necessary...- "Demon Prince Of The War. General Of Hell." the stern voice snapped out. Baal turned to face the young Archangel who had come up behind him and smiled widely. "Uriel's once and former lapdog. The infant 'Commander' of the Host." he drawled sardonically. "What, was Michael's appointment calendar already filled for today? Or are we simply feeling our wild oats?" Laurence's lips thinned at Baal's taunts as he stared back into the Demon Prince's eyes. "Michael... could not be reached, or found. There is a War on, as you may possibly have heard." he replied levelly. Baal grinned even more widely at Laurence's conversational sally. "Well, at least you have *some* teeth to bite with, little one. So, you're here to fight gloriously in righteous battle in the name of God?", Baal asked mockingly. "To smite the wicked Demon Prince all by your own little self and go home covered in the glory of defeating the mightiest of Hell? Tired of always being called second-best, are we?" "I am here," Laurence replied with iron in his voice, "on a mission to stop The War from destroying what little hope remains for the peace process in this tormented land. Even as we speak, a Soldier of the Sword is shooting at the truck containing Belshezar's soldiers with a sniper rifle. As they follow standard procedure in the case of such assault, they will spend time stopping and taking cover and deploying to counterfire vs. what they believe to be a route ambush... enough time so that your carefully arranged 'mistake' will be discovered and an abort order transmitted. And instead of your bloody cause celebre, there will instead be only a few random shots fired into the engine block and tires of a truck and a minor incident report of little note." "An adequate stratagem for minimal disturbance and sufficient effect," Baal replied smoothly. "Of course, there is one *tiny* flaw in your otherwise masterful plan... to wit, the direct presence of myself. Even if I must destroy the house and all who reside within it with my own hands, Nybbas' servitors will report it as an Israeli military strike anyway. Less elegant than I'd planned for, true... a greater risk of the deception being exposed at a later date... but still sufficient enough unto the day, if not perfect." "And there is one 'tiny flaw' in your own plans... to wit, the direct presence of myself." Laurence mirrored Baal's taunt. "You will molest no mortals today, Demon Prince." Baal laughed horribly and gestured, bringing up a Celestial Song of Shields around the two of them. "You think yourself capable of hindering *my* progress... *whelp*? You are a fool and twice a fool!" Baal's blade, a huge serrated monstrosity of a black-metal bastard sword, materialized in his hands as both Archangels assumed Celestial form and prepared for battle. Laurence drew his gleaming broadsword from its Scabbard and awaited Baal's first strike. "If you think I cannot do so, then try you my blade and let me prove your folly upon your body... Hellspawn." Laurence and Baal raised their swords, celestial artifacts the both of them, and locked eyes with each other, each one focusing his entire will upon his opponent. Time seemed to stop as the two master swordsmen took each other's measure in full, the Malakite buoyed by his righteous fury, his fiery certainty in his own honor; and the Balseraph by his unmatched pride, his unshakable belief that his own valor was supreme in all the universe. Each one focused their minds for battle and became living extensions of their weapons, while sizing up precisely who and what they faced across their blades. And then Baal spat in Laurence's face and lunged. Laurence felt the shock of the impact travel all the way up his arms to his shoulders as he parried Baal's first blow. He riposted, only to have Baal's blade immediately return to the guard position as if drawn by an invisible spring and beat his own attack aside. For the next several minutes, the two Superiors' blades flashed and rang furiously at speeds greater than any mortal could hope to see as they threw their skills and power at each other via the edges of their blades, each one dealing and parrying a hundred and more sword strokes any one of which would have slain a lesser being instantly. "I hope that you are appreciating this unique experience, O 'mighty' Archangel," Baal stated, as each fighter stepped back to regroup after the first passage of arms. "I understand that your hunts in the service of Purity were much less... challenging for you, with no opportunity for extended swordplay vs. a ready foe. I'm sure it got so boring, cutting down the weak and unarmed with single strokes..." "You *lie*, Balseraph. You lie *vilely*!" Laurence said heatedly. "I have *never* wielded my blade dishonorably, or shrank from a fight versus an equal!" "You still have yet to fight versus an equal, little angel. You are now fighting against *me*, your superior, a foe you cannot ever hope to make yield the field to you." "Your resonance will not win you what your blade has proven unable to, Liar." "My blade has not even *begun* to prove itself, boy." stated Baal, as he stepped forward to renew the attack. Laurence fell back against Baal's onslaught, as the old and canny Prince used the knowledge he had gained from his first exchange with Laurence to better plan his attacks. Parrying as quickly as he could, Laurence was forced into a defensive posture as Baal's swordsmanship, now newly tailored and adjusted to take perfect advantage of Laurence's individual style, pressed him sorely over and over again. His arms and shoulders began... oh, just began... to weary from the effort of parrying the immense might behind each of Baal's blows over and over again... .. and then Baal, deftly switching to a feint after his continual onslaught of muscle, slapped Laurence's blade aside and slashed his upper arm. Baal smiled and held his sword and his position as Laurence disengaged from the melee and took a step backwards, dripping blood from the wound on his sword arm, the metaphor of the sword duel representing their celestial combat vs. each other's forces. "'Unable', I believe you said? 'Unable' to do what? I have Knights and Barons who challenge me more than you just did." "First blood is not last blood, demon." Laurence said, switching his grip on his broadsword and raising his blade again with his one arm. "Oh, how *poetic* of you. Bra-vo." Baal chuckled. "Well, I've really enjoyed this little bantering contest of ours, but I *do* have a schedule to keep... so now, we will finish this." Laurence glared at Baal, burning with anger at each one of Baal's taunts and implications, at each and every thought and doubt that suggested that Laurence was not a worthy foe to Baal, not equal to this test, not... .. not concentrating upon his duty. - -I am not here to indulge my vainglory, or to lust after the acclaim that would be due me for defeating this Demon Prince-, Laurence suddenly realized with shame. -His taunts and insults are of no worth, his status and mine of no import. I am not here to win anything for myself, I am but a Sword in the hands of God that He may use to strike against His foes. Baal sought to make me angry and prideful and full of my own concerns, so that I might have my spirit clouded with sin and be open to his assault. And the more fool I, I almost succumbed. And I most likely will die here still.- - -So be it.- Baal, halfway into his windup, suddenly stopped as he saw the fury fade from Laurence's eyes like tracks in snow wiped away with the speed and clean coldness of a winter blizzard. Laurence stood there... tired, battered, bruised, and bleeding, a foe that *should* have been weakened and open, worn down and vulnerable. Baal was the stronger, and still the fresher, and Laurence at a disadvantage... too worn down by attrition to win, too honor-bound to surrender or flee. But Laurence, with the cold calm certainty of a naked blade, focused his will upon his purpose and commanded his self to ignore all such concerns, all wounds, all weariness and frailty. And his self obeyed. "And now we will finish this, indeed." Laurence whispered. Baal's and Laurence's eyes met for the final time, as Baal stared into... .. nothing. Laurence's tiny doubts about his youth and relative position vs. Michael's, his momentary fears of unworthiness, his youthful and prideful emotions, all the things that Baal had seen in their first contest of wills and known he could take advantage of -- all were gone, as if they had never been. Not suppressed, not denied, not ignored, but *gone*. Baal stared, taken aback at this new vision, as he looked at an Archangel that was still Laurence, yet was totally different. Laurence stood balanced on the razor's edge between living and dying, as selfless as a sword, as pure as a ray of light... a knight facing his hardest battle, a knight who would brook no outcome other than honorable death or honorable victory. For Laurence now knew what he must do, and to fulfill his oaths he would do it without hesitation or doubt. And Time seemed to stop again, as each one of them stared deep into the other's soul, and their thoughts moved like quicksilver... - -What on Earth is he *thinking*? Does he really think he can beat me *now*?- - -For the samurai, there is no failure, there is only death or success...- - -Does that fool whelp *still* think that he can take me? After his being weakened...- - -Though I die here today, I shall not die alone...- - -Stupid Malakite. His honor is his life, indeed. And now... it will be his death. It *will* be his death. It *will* be...- - -I shall cut my foe's flesh as he cuts mine, and we shall both go to our final Judgement together...- - -I'll cut this suicidal fool down like a stack of raw meat!- - -... with a Final Strike. I shall die in the effort... but Baal *will* fall with me...- - -He can't just throw his life away like that, it would make no *sense*! What valor lies in suicide?- - -... and Heaven's cause shall be furthered the greatest. For Michael will succeed me as Commander of the Host, while Hell simultaneously loses the only Prince who could hope to counter him...- - -He couldn't be willing to sell his own life just to buy *that* victory... could he?- - -Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy Name...- - -Oh *shit*, he's *really going to do it...*- Baal took an involuntarily step backwards, stepping backwards from the vision of his own death that now stood before him. For he knew with equal certainty to Laurence's did while Baal could still press the attack and take Laurence's life, he could not do so without the Archangel of the Sword's final kamikaze attack slaying him as well. With Laurence's mind and body and spirit all focused as the unity they were now, with all doubt and hesitation removed, with all need for Laurence to concentrate further upon his own defense removed... Baal knew that the margin between them had narrowed too much. "I am ever ready to lay down my life in the service of my Lord. Are you willing to do the same?" The Archangel and the Demon Prince stood facing each other in the street in Jerusalem where they'd started from, back in their Vessels. Baal opened his mouth to answer... and found that no words would come. His pride refused to let him admit that he would yield the field to the gleaming Malakite. And his selfishness refused to let him press forward, to buy Laurence's life for the cause of Hell with his own life as the coin. Laurence watched the Demon Prince of the War wordlessly turn and walk away, his shoulders slumped in defeat. - -I had hoped that the selfishness of the demon would prevent him from exchanging his life for mine, as his self is the only center of his universe.- Laurence thought. -Had I been wrong, this still would have been the only honorable path; and I would have followed it truly and faithfully.- - -However, I will admit to being very pleased that I was right.- Laurence breathed deeply and hid the barest hint of a grin behind his hand as he sheathed his sword and turned to return to Heaven. As he left and the Shield collapsed, the disturbance of the two Superiors' conflict was belatedly released to echo out over the city... .. and the battle-scarred figure in the nearby alleyway listened to it with a smile. - -You lose, Baal.- Michael thought to himself. -And Laurence wins what he needed to win, what I needed to stand back and *let* him win... a victory all his own. A victory not over a demon, but over himself. Uriel's boy has finally grown up, and learned to truly value himself for who he is rather than worry about who he isn't.- Michael sighed happily, and concentrated a bit of his Essence on sending a Song of Tongues. - --I'm proud of you, Laurence.-- - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Contest> Dominic's Confessions - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > What an interesting idea. Please excuse me while I > hijack it and send it screaming down a mineshaft. :) Bravo, Moe. It's every bit as good as the Eli piece. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:04:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Archangels> (which now has a pop reference. Go figure) - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > "No harm done, Bobiel. Oh yes, by the way..." > > "Yes, Kayiel?" > > "Would you mind looking into the flashing red light?" Okaaaaay.... AIB to the rescue! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:07:53 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> New Hellish society The Hollow Ones It was once said nothing can be destroyed in the universe, this is wrong for there is one thing...the soul - -The Empty One The Hollow Ones are an order that is very old in Hell but few realize just how exactly old it is or even know of it's existence. Makatiel the Demon Prince of Oblivion is the basis of the Order's theology but they go well beyond the destroyed being's beliefs and dwell quite strongly into their own. The secret society is also furthermore curious because it is made up primarilly of Djinn and indeed it seems to have a curious and disturbing appeal to all of the fallen choir who hear it's mantra. The Hollow One order was created when one of Makatiel's former servitors (it is believed) contacted several Djinn of various words including Death, Fate, War, and Nightmares. Dressed in an artifact robe and mask the Empty One (as he is known) kept his identity secret and only through his persuasive nature and dogma of oblivion did he sway the Stalkers he contacted to stay and listen. Gradually a large number of Makatiel's servitors (now mostly in Gluttony and Fire's service) joined the order to form the stable faction that it is today around the time of the Black Death. The Hollow One's since then primarilly communicate through spoken word and remain informal save for each possessing a copy of the Hellish tome known as the Word of Emptiness which more or less serves as a Bible for this cult. The Empty One's beliefs (as recorded in the Word of Emptiness) are rudely summarized (but very accurately) as the idea the universe is a giant mistake that needs to be corrected. It goes deeper in stateing that the only thing that can truly set one free and make one at peace is to feel nothing and be effectively without a soul. A parody on Buddist beliefs almost in a desire to not want the Empty Ones believe in not feeling but gradually bringing about nothingness. This would not make a great deal of difference one way or another in Hell's belief structure if not for the parts of the book's doctrine which gives a series of revelations and advice for dealing with Heaven. The most curious part being that the Empty One's belief that the universe will be annhilated, undone, unmade etc with the destruction of the Archangel Novalis. The Order notes that Heaven's legions under Michael, David, Janus, and Laurence are effectively about destruction and oblivion of the diabolical hordes; they fight for a just cause but their anger is reigned in by the optimism and warmth of Novalis. With the destruction of her the others will give totally into their rage and destroy eveyrthing they've fought for in grief...perhaps even Yves, Blandine, and others. With that grief at Heaven's destruction and the work done in Hell and on Earth then God will call reality at last a mistake and unmake it. Before unmaking himself. The next thing to really note about the order is it's philosophy for the corruption of humans; including the idea that once despair and Murphy's law is embraced then they will be as free as demons and nothing will matter to Heaven's efforts because pain will be unimportant as will love. Thus the order makes it a special point to hunt down and destroy servitors of Novalis and make lives difficult for them above others. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:17:48 -0400 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> Stat+SKill Systems On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:53:54PM +0000, Perry Lloyd wrote: > Overall, I dislike it because it means that you can overcome poor skill > levels with high attribute levels. And, raising attribute level is often > cheaper in the long run, since it raises the effective level of ALL the > skills that are based upon it. This, and the rest of the post which contains it, sum up why I don't like stat+skill systems, probably better and more concisely than I could have. Of course, I was raised on CoC, where your stats have practically no affect on your skills after character creation (intelligence and education affect the number of points you have to buy skills with, and some skills have strength or dexterity-based defaults). In IN, the stat+skill system works well enough, because the game is (usually) cinematic in style, and deals mostly with beings with clearly superhuman abilities. It only breaks down in two places: 1) Mundanes and animals (i.e., any being with significantly lower stats than an average celestial). This is more a granularity problem than a stat+skill problem, admittedly, but it is magnified by the importance of stats. You can mostly work around this by giving humans free skills (general corporeal competence/3) and removing the Skill/6 cap for humans. I suggested a couple of fixes for animals in my previous post (basically free skills). Another thing occurs to me. I'm an avid reader of Fiat Justitia logs, and looking back on it, I can't seem to remember any mundane ever rolling the dice for anything, which may be the best way to handle it ;) 2) Character advancement. As Perry points out, it's usually cheaper to buy up attributes than to buy up skills, because a 1 level stat increase is a 1 level skill increase in all your skills based on that stat. It's even worse if players can buy Forces at a discount (10 points instead of 12). You could tweak this by modifying point costs, but the whole character advancement thing feels kinda unwholesome to me (maybe because I come from a game where character degeneration is the norm :). To be honest, I've never run a game that lasted long enough for this to become a problem, and as a GM I'd be more likely to give out Superior bennies (rites, attunements, artifacts) than let players spend character points freely. Please bear in mind that all I'm saying is that _I_ don't like stat+skill systems. IN's system actually works well enough that I don't feel compelled to use FUDGE rules for games in the IN setting. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:38:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Secretly Replaced... - --- gnezda wrote: > Just wondering, how liberal are you guys with the Kobalite servitor > attunement 'Secretly Replaced...'? I would require a certain degree of physical similarity -- but similar texture is certainly enough, even if the compositions differ radically. Similarity of shape is good, too. There are more subtle uses , however. "We've secretly replaced Jadiel's fully-loaded revolver with an identical weapon that has no bullets. Let's see if he notices _before_ the Calabim open fire." ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:44:42 +1000 From: "Azrael/Demigouge" Subject: Re: Re:IN> Crusade replies. [...] I > can't imagine that Belial was precisley close to the Demon Prince of the > Oceans, but he still wiped out Oannes for the crime. While I agree that it would start an outright conflict between Heaven and Hell, I don't believe that Belial struck at Oannes because he killed Vephar, but rather becuase he *could*, Belial is a Calabite after all. Destroying his opposition (boh ine Word, and general opposition) would be a high thing on his list of priorities regardless of what Oannes did. The fact that this would start a conflict, as well as weakening Hell's position (but Heaven would also be weakened considerably) would attract the War faction of Heaven, those who think going the all out tonk with Hell would be a good thing, Micheal, Laurence, David and friends. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:51:16 PDT From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> FICTION -- The War and the Sword *stands in awe, mouth hanging open* Oh my! That's quiet possibly the best I've read on this list, ever. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketing _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1859 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.