From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Oct 23 13:24:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18073 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:24:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA08123 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:22:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:22:52 -0500 Message-Id: <200010231822.NAA08123@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1869 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, October 23 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1869 In this digest: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: On the Fly IN> AIM users? Re: IN> Fwd: German game Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Novalis Re: IN> War and Dreams... Round One with a whole lot of other stuff Re: IN> AIM users? Re: IN> A Challenge vignette IN> in nomine questions Re: IN> I'm baa-acck... Re: IN> previous questions Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: On the Fly Re: IN> in nomine questions IN> Cherub of Destiny Atunment Re: IN> A Challenge vignette Re: IN> Cherub of Destiny Atunment Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: On the Fly Lilith Stare-Downs (was Re: IN> A Challenge vignette) Re: IN> Zedekiah, Servitor of Judgement Re: IN> Zedekiah, Servitor of Judgement Re: IN> Michael's Challenges -- The Final Challenge Re: IN> previous questions Re: IN> in nomine questions IN> Forgot, can't find. Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched Re: IN> Forgot, can't find. Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched Re: IN> in nomine questions Thoughts About Michael (was Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:02:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: On the Fly On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Prodigal wrote: > From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" > > > > An interesting approach... but I can't see Michael or Laurence really > > agreeing to this. I mean, it's not combat of ANY sort. > > Pitting your skills against an opponent isn't a battle? No, it isn't. And it ESPECIALLY isn't combat, which is what I specifically said. A cooking contest is not a fight, much in the same manner than a hummingbird is not a bar of chocolate. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Some people desperately want to be a a part of the crowd. Some people are special; they stand out in a crowd... And then there's the ME PHI ME - WE STAND ALONE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:26:25 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> AIM users? Oh dear God! 179 InNomine messages on Monday morning. What happened to you people? Don't you get any sleep during the WE?!? Just kidding... > errr, you got AOL Instant Messenger? Good question, actually. Is there anybody on this list who's using AIM? If yes, care to publish your screen name? Mine is Callicius. Yeah, I know, but do you know how hard it is to find a nick that's not been taken yet?? Anyway, back to the 59 remaining messages. The long ones... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:05:58 +0200 From: Benediktq@t-online.de (Benedikt) Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: German game > The original game is French. It is called IN NOMINE SATANIS/MAGNA VERITAS. > There is a German translation. The French version is available if you > know where to look, but generally needs to be ordered from overseas/France. > I don't know about the availability of the German translation. The Frence > author is, I believe, "Croc," and the French publisher is Siroz. (Again, I > believe.) I _think_ they do not have an email address, but I could be > wrong... The publisher of the German Version is Mario Truant Verlag, the ISBN is 3-926801-14-X. I ordered it at a book store and I think itīs still available. Look at http://www.truant.com/verlag.htm for further information. The e-mail adress is viva@truant.com I think. I hope I could help you. Sammael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:52:03 -0400 From: "Andrew Stoner" Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Novalis Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 6:26 AM -0700 10/21/00, Maurice Lane wrote: > > > >Damn straight. However, I'm still writing up mine > >(completely different focus than yours, Eric, but so > >what else is new?)... just as soon I get out of Boston > >and back in front of my own computer where I belong. > > > >Geez, the Internet is everywhere these days. > >:) > > Now wait a cotton pickin' minute here. You're in New England and you > don't have the good graces to tell the New Englandish IN folks where > you are? > > Yeesh. It's a Malphasian plot, I swear. Not only that but he DARES to come into my backyard without so much as a by-your-leave... Um... Right. Sorry, been working too hard on my campaign (set in Boston, the only city I know well.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:22:32 -0400 From: "Andrew Stoner" Subject: Re: IN> War and Dreams... Round One with a whole lot of other stuff > Damn... I never thought of Dreams as being THAT aggressive, even towards > War. She always struck me as calm and waify.... Yeah, me too. Isn't it funny how we can think of a incomprehensibly potent entity (can YOU comprehend a superior's power? *I* can't) who has been engaged in a multi-millenia conflict as waify (from my POV, I mean unwilling to fight. I dunno about you...) However, a humorous idea about Christopher is shaping up in my mind... As soon as I finish up the writeup for a bunch of armor converted from GURPS to IN. I figure, the comp time I've got should be good for that (#&^#&^#%^ 60-hour weeks on 40-hour salary) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:46:16 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> AIM users? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurent" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 4:26 AM Subject: IN> AIM users? > Oh dear God! 179 InNomine messages on Monday morning. What happened to you > people? Don't you get any sleep during the WE?!? Just kidding... > > > errr, you got AOL Instant Messenger? > Good question, actually. Is there anybody on this list who's using AIM? If > yes, care to publish your screen name? Mine is Callicius. Yeah, I know, but > do you know how hard it is to find a nick that's not been taken yet?? Seeing as how I got "clgtarafan", you can imagine... *g* - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:58:41 -0400 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> A Challenge vignette Beth wrote: > > "So," Lilith whispered up at him, green eyes wide, "how much do you Need > to win, War?" > > And he realized that, despite his assumptions, despite the rules, this > battle was on a different battlefield than mere strength. Win _this_ > battle, and lose another. Come on, this never works against a sufficiently fanatical angel. All their Needs are "The everlasting glory of God/6" and that's just not something a demon can do much to add to, not if they don't want to find Asmodeus finding out how long their small intestines is. Insufficiently fanatical angels are fair game, of course. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:22:42 -0700 (PDT) From: chris carr Subject: IN> in nomine questions there are a few questions that i was wondering about regarding in nomine. i have posted some before, but to no avail. so to get me to shut up, just please take the time to give me some help. first, demons dont need to sleep or eat, but do posessed people? second, what does celestial combat look like since no physical punches are effective? can physical celestial combat take place in the celestial realm, or do celestals never damage anything physically in their real forms? third, do angels and demons have estates, houses, or property in their respected realms? if not, where do they stay for extended periods? do they just hang around outside? can they be granted property? fourth, how can a demon of the dream/nightmare archangel/princess get to their heart if they appear at the door to their superiors tower? are there any rules anywhere, or will be forthcoming about a player becoming a superior? i hope this isnt "20eth' level, time to retire your character" type game. thats about it for now, thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:07:40 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> I'm baa-acck... From: Maurice Lane << ... and what a fun trip it was. Delays, a wedding, a moment of pure, adrenal terror (followed by a supreme act of blatant self-preservation or moral cowardice, depending on your point of view*) ... and a Michael challenge. Yes, that one. :) http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/stories/Novchal.htm >> Wonderful. Bravo. - -- Kish ICQ#: 28085879 AIM: Kish K M Kish_K@mindspring.replacewithcom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:18:02 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> previous questions At 10:52 PM -0700 10/22/00, chris carr wrote: >i asked some questions before, but they have not been >responded to. i havent played yet, and these are some >things i wanted to clear up. >first, the book says you can dodge or resist, but it >doesnt tell how to resist, just dodge. Well, Elizabeth covered that in her response, so I won't go into it here since I can't cite page numbers (I'm without a book here). >second, what does celestial combat look like? Whatever you wish, but generally it looks like angels and demons in their Celestial forms engaging one another, their wings, talons, fiery spheres etc. all curling around one another, with flares of light and darkness as they engage each other. Or so it seems to me. Technically, you also can't see it since Celestial forms are invisible, but that's quibbling. > if >punches have a power of zero, how do they hit each >other? Celestial combat is in the rules. Corporeal power (strength and so forth) has no effect. This is the soul against the soul. You calculate Celestial power from the Will stat, as the stronger Will leads to the more powerful blow. Similarly, one uses Perception to dodge. > if you are having celestial combat on the >celestial realm, could you then punch one another >since you wouldnt go through things? if so, how would >that be resolved? Only metaphorically. Whenever you're in Celestial combat, whether in Heaven or Hell (Celestial Realm) or Earth (Corporeal Realm) the combats are the same, and it's the Celestial Forces and statistics that rule them. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:35:14 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: On the Fly At 6:02 AM -0400 10/23/00, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Prodigal wrote: > >A cooking contest is not a fight, much in the same manner than a >hummingbird is not a bar of chocolate. Do we really have to dissect it this much? It was a very funny story, and needs little else going for it. But if we have to, then I can explain why they agreed to the contest. Eli made the challenge. He's been on walkabout for fifty years. No one knows why. Suddenly, he shows up to accept a challenge from Michael, albeit not in an arena that fits Michael's definition. Michael and Laurence both want information on Eli -- as much as they can get. They also want Eli to return to Heaven and socialize as much as possible. So they accept said challenge, whether it's a combat or not. And if it's a little ridiculous -- well, Michael still takes it seriously because he takes *everything* seriously, and because he wants that boon. Now, if he can find Eli, he can demand Eli tell him the whole sordid story of why he left and what he hopes to accomplish, which Michael can then use to further the War. Yeesh. Need we be so prosaic, here? (I'm just sad Jean didn't show up in the Professor Satori role. "Hm. Yes. I believe he's stir-frying with lemon juice. That brings out some of the natural flavor of the yellow bell pepper.") - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:48:07 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> in nomine questions Mm -- I must be feeling surly this morning.... At 6:22 AM -0700 10/23/00, chris carr wrote: >there are a few questions that i was wondering about >regarding in nomine. i have posted some before, but to >no avail. so to get me to shut up, just please take >the time to give me some help. You posted the last set of question less than eight hours ago. We do sleep, you know. >first, demons dont need to sleep or eat, but do >posessed people? Possessed by a Shedite, yes -- though only for purposes of keeping the human unsuspicious. Possessed by a Kyriotate, no. >second, what does celestial combat look like since no >physical punches are effective? Whatever you'd like it to. Make it as prosaic or as metaphoric as you wish. For examples, look at all the Michael challenges. They were all Celestial combat, except for the Khalid fight. You could as easily had the celestial forms square off and beams of light and darkness erupt from their foreheads, though. Think mythology and metaphor. > can physical celestial >combat take place in the celestial realm, or do >celestals never damage anything physically in their >real forms? There is no "physical" in the celestial realm. The substance of the celestial realm is all celestial. Therefore, Blandine's tower will block a Celestial's entrance with its walls. By the same token, non-Celestial relics and all non-relics disappear with the assumption of Celestial form, until the Celestial drops back down into the Corporeal realm. So, assume strength and agility, vessels and body hits all vanish when you go Celestial, and use the Celestial stats for all combats. >third, do angels and demons have estates, houses, or >property in their respected realms? Depends on the Superior. > if not, where do >they stay for extended periods? do they just hang >around outside? See above. Certainly, Jordi's followers hang around outside, and so do Janus's. Well, maybe they find caves, but that's not the same thing. Marc's followers likely have apartments in the Heavenly City. Litheroy's followers have their Monk's Cells. Alaemon's followers sleep under your bed, recording what you say in your sleep, and so forth. > can they be granted property? Depends on the Superior, but it's far more likely in Hell than in Heaven, and once in Hell it's more likely in some domains (Shal Mari most of all) than others. >fourth, how can a demon of the dream/nightmare >archangel/princess get to their heart if they appear >at the door to their superiors tower? This assumes the Hearts are in the Towers. They may be elsewhere in the Celestial parts of the Marches. However, if they are in the Towers then they'll appear next to them, regardless of the normal rules for entering the Tower. >are there any rules anywhere, or will be forthcoming >about a player becoming a superior? i hope this isnt >"20eth' level, time to retire your character" type >game. Mm. Becoming a Superior isn't like becoming "20th Level." Becoming a Superior is like becoming completely omnipotent, only opposable by other Superiors, able to rend mountains into shards at will. So no, there are no rules for how to *play* a Superior. You're on your own, there. There *are* rules on how to become one, however. You build your Forces. You gain Distinctions in your Master's Service. Eventually, you get sponsored for a Word and receive it. You build your Word to the point that it becomes indispensable to the Symphony. In Heaven, you convince the Seraphim Council that you should be a Superior, and they make you one. In Hell, you convince Lucifer of the same thing. All while your rivals try to pull you down or (in Hell) eat you before you get too big. Done right, this should take several centuries. Perhaps even several centuries of game playing. But the journey should be fun. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:06:15 +0200 From: Benediktq@t-online.de (Benedikt) Subject: IN> Cherub of Destiny Atunment Hy, a Cherub of Destiny can sense when a person will day naturally. Now, can he intervene or does he have to let it happen, because itīs the personīs destiny to die? Sammael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:30:48 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Challenge vignette - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: Re: IN> A Challenge vignette > Beth wrote: > > > > "So," Lilith whispered up at him, green eyes wide, "how much do you Need > > to win, War?" > > > > And he realized that, despite his assumptions, despite the rules, this > > battle was on a different battlefield than mere strength. Win _this_ > > battle, and lose another. > > Come on, this never works against a sufficiently fanatical angel. All > their Needs are "The everlasting glory of God/6" and that's just not > something a demon can do much to add to, not if they don't want to find > Asmodeus finding out how long their small intestines is. > > Insufficiently fanatical angels are fair game, of course. :) Yeah, I can just imagine Lilith looking in Michael's eyes and getting her usual 6 on the check digit... "Resonance Scan Complete. Greatest Need/6: Lucifer's Head On A Stick" Lilith -- "Eep!" - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:29:14 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Destiny Atunment At 5:06 PM +0200 10/23/00, Benedikt wrote: >Hy, > >a Cherub of Destiny can sense when a person will day naturally. Now, can he >intervene or does he have to let it happen, because itīs the >personīs destiny to >die? He can intervene. The attunement is *specifically* barring Celestial involvement. And one's death has little to do with Destiny or Fate, save that if you achieve one of the two before you die, you end up in Heaven or Hell, and if not you discorporate or reincarnate. I'm mister answer today. It's all the tea I'm drinking. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:54:45 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: On the Fly - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whistling in the Dark" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 9:35 AM Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: On the Fly > At 6:02 AM -0400 10/23/00, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: > >On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Prodigal wrote: > > > >A cooking contest is not a fight, much in the same manner than a > >hummingbird is not a bar of chocolate. > > Do we really have to dissect it this much? It was a very funny story, > and needs little else going for it. > > But if we have to, then I can explain why they agreed to the contest. > Eli made the challenge. > > He's been on walkabout for fifty years. No one knows why. Suddenly, > he shows up to accept a challenge from Michael, albeit not in an > arena that fits Michael's definition. Michael and Laurence both want > information on Eli -- as much as they can get. They also want Eli to > return to Heaven and socialize as much as possible. > > So they accept said challenge, whether it's a combat or not. And if > it's a little ridiculous -- well, Michael still takes it seriously > because he takes *everything* seriously, and because he wants that > boon. Now, if he can find Eli, he can demand Eli tell him the whole > sordid story of why he left and what he hopes to accomplish, which > Michael can then use to further the War. > > Yeesh. Need we be so prosaic, here? I had just figured that Eli had gotten really... creative... in fast-talking Laurence re: why this challenge really wasn't so unacceptable after all. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:57:08 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Lilith Stare-Downs (was Re: IN> A Challenge vignette) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Glasgow" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 10:30 AM Subject: Re: IN> A Challenge vignette > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" > > Come on, this never works against a sufficiently fanatical angel. All > > their Needs are "The everlasting glory of God/6" and that's just not > > something a demon can do much to add to, not if they don't want to find > > Asmodeus finding out how long their small intestines is. > > > > Insufficiently fanatical angels are fair game, of course. :) > > Yeah, I can just imagine Lilith looking in Michael's eyes and getting her > usual 6 on the check digit... > > "Resonance Scan Complete. Greatest Need/6: Lucifer's Head On A Stick" > > Lilith -- "Eep!" And now I've sparked off a whole new train of thought (belatedly) in my mind... what Lilith would see if she played staredown with various Superiors and yanked out some of their Need/6's? (Humor is not only accepted, but encouraged. *g*) Laurence -- "Every single last demon in the entire Symphony dead, dead, d-e-a-d DEAD!" (Lilith's comment -- "And here I thought it couldn't get worse than Michael's...") Novalis -- "Every single last demon in the entire Symphony Redeemed and brought back to the Light, so the War can finally be over with without any bit of bloodshed." (Lilith's comment -- "I think I'd have better luck with Laurence's.") Dominic -- "For all angels to be perfect." (Lilith's comment -- "What?!? And lose that much of my potential customer base?") Marc -- "To take both Lilith and Mammon for everything they have in final liquidation, and then get back what I paid 'em." (Lilith's comment -- "You just keep dreaming, buster! And by the way, did you see the fine print down here...?") Janus -- "To get... no, wait a minute, I'd rather have... nope, I think I'll take this instead... no, wait..." (Lilith's comment -- "STOP THAT! You're giving me a headache!") David -- "Wait. I'll get back to you." (Lilith's comment -- "I'm not holding my breath.") Anybody got any more? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:41:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Zedekiah, Servitor of Judgement Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 18:33:43 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> Zedekiah, Servitor of Judgement >Something entirely unrelated to the current story >event... an NPC or PC for use when you want the >party's resident Seraph of Judgement to *not* be >a stiff... I laughed, I cried, I wrote down his name for a walk-on in the New Crusade. Hey, no sooner am I out of town then people start borrowing _my_ NPCs for cameos*. Didn't think that I'd wade through five days of digests, huh? Wrong. Turnabout, fair play, phbbth. :) Seriously, interesting character. The Discord seems fairly reasonable, but you may want to quantify it a little more. Other than that, no real nitpicks. :) Moe *And don't sit there looking nonchalant, Ms. Line Editor. You're just as guilty. :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:08:25 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Zedekiah, Servitor of Judgement - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 11:41 AM Subject: Re: IN> Zedekiah, Servitor of Judgement [snip] > I laughed, I cried, I wrote down his name for a > walk-on in the New Crusade. Thank you! [snip] > Seriously, interesting character. The Discord seems > fairly reasonable, but you may want to quantify it a > little more. Other than that, no real nitpicks. :) I admit that the Discord takes a bit of explaining... It's all rooted in this. Zedekiah is paranoid about ever finding himself back in Hell, for any reason. To him, that's a fate *infinitely* worse than death. If Beleth ever wanted to send him up the walls screaming, all she'd have to do is convince him that he'd somehow become a Balseraph again and he'd most likely collapse into a catatonic quivering mess. This creeps over into a lot of his normal life. Even under circumstances where even them most "normally" uptight and rigorous Seraph of Judgement would agree that it was necessary to rack up one note of dissonance (IOW, if I don't tell this lie then the world is destroyed) and then pray that Dominic would only assign him a mild penance later, Zed's mind would still go into travel lock merely at the thought of doing it. (IOW, time for the Will roll to overcome the Discord.) After all, rationalizing the necessity of one note of dissonance could theoretically lead to rationalizing another, and then... AAGGGH! I'm On The Road To Hell! I'm About To Trip! I'm going to Fall! I've Seen It Happen Before, And Now It's Happening To Me! NOOOOOOOO!!! *twitch twitch* (I'm using the GURPS approach -- if it limits your character's behavior in play, it's a disadvantage. If not, then it's not worth points. Since this is *somewhat* limiting -- the average PC can choose to eat a point of dissonance whenever he feels it necessary just so long as he's willing to risk the consequences, but Zed can't even think about doing that unless he makes his Will roll first -- I figured it was worth points. But since dissonance is something that average PCs avoid unless they absolutely have to, it wasn't worth full poitns. Hence the 2 points/level suggested for a 'less frequently appearing' Fear discord. The same would apply to any assignments where he had to interact with demons in any way other than as confirmed hostiles. Put a Holy Pistol/1 in his hand and send him up against an 18-Force Calabite of Fire, his only worries are about how much the Trauma is going to hurt. A trifle. Make him part of a party tracking down and bringing Diabolicals to bay, he's just happy as happy can be to be serving God alongside his fellow angels. Have him going door-to-door down the block pretending to be a Jehovah's Witness while using his resonance on everybody who answers the door to see which house the Impudite is living in ("Good morning, sir! May I have your name?"), no problem! But all you have to do is even mention that you might be assigning him to a duty where he has to actually sit down and cooperate with demons, even just for a day or two, and he starts twitching again. After all, if he actually has to *socially* interact with demons, then that's a chance for them to work on his mind and maybe lead him into Tripping and Falling. Hey, Zedekiah *knows* that's always possible. It used to be one of his old jobs to do it! And if it worked on another angel, it *could* work on him... no, no, no! Best not even to risk it! *twitch twitch* Zed's still not finished dealing with all that post-traumatic stress disorder he picked up down there, ya see... - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:41:41 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges -- The Final Challenge Azrael/Demigouge wrote: > > No no no no no the final challenge came too soon! But it was nice....but> too soon. Just because one person wrote the "final" scenario doesn't mean everyone else has to stop. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:44:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> previous questions chris carr wrote: >>> if> punches have a power of zero, how do they hit each > other? Do you mean in corporeal combat? A Power 0 attack can still do damage, it just adds nothing to the CD. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:45:59 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> in nomine questions chris carr wrote: > first, demons dont need to sleep or eat, but do > posessed people? No; while possessed, a human body functions as a vessel. > are there any rules anywhere, or will be forthcoming > about a player becoming a superior? i hope this isnt > "20eth' level, time to retire your character" type > game. Not really. The Game Master's Guide touches on this, but PCs really aren't meant to become Superiors. This is a "What the hell are 'levels'?" type of game. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:37:09 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Forgot, can't find. Are Outcasts/Renegades bound by their Superior's dissonance terms? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:49:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:31:43 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched At 10:56 PM -0500 10/22/00, David Edelstein wrote: >BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >>> Okay, this one was pretty good. Though the little >>> fart only won on a technicality. I was starting to >>> see Michael as being similar to those Mr. T> >>> websites. Unbeatable. I rather liked that, too. >> >>Michael _should_ be unbeatable. >Actually, to me that's one of the challenges of these >stories (and I assume they're not necessarily over >just 'cause someone ended them. ). You have to >assume that Michael will win, period. It's making >the story interesting despite the ending being >foretold. You know, not to be a Unitarian INer or anything, but I really do have to ask the question: Just _why_ does Michael have to be unbeatable? He's the Archangel of War, not the Archangel of Invincibility. If he was the latter then he could just dive into Hell and kill them all off... one demon at a time. Yeah, yeah, I know: there's practical considerations involved. I'm not being entirely serious, here. However, just because the big galoot's the most starkly dangerous entity to ever pick up an axe doesn't mean that he's automatically going to prevail in _every_ conflict. Granted, the Word of Conflict (a possible interpetation of the Word, although it's could be argued tha it's more demonic than angelic... Hmm. Actually, ignore everything above, if you don't mind. ;) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:14:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched Maurice Lane wrote: > Just _why_ does Michael have to be unbeatable? He's > the Archangel of War, not the Archangel of > Invincibility. If he was the latter then he could > just dive into Hell and kill them all off... one demon > at a time. I think Michael is much more dramatic as the One Who Has Never Been Beaten. Sure, we can speculate about whether he's really unbeatable, which is why there is debate about who would win in a rematch between him and Lucifer, and we can postulate that even Michael could not take on all of Hell single-handed and win (which is why he doesn't try), but if Michael actually loses a fight, he's no longer the glorious, undefeated Archangel of War Michael "Who is Like God," but just another really bad-ass Superior who's pretty tough but otherwise not much different from the others. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:57:48 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Forgot, can't find. At 11:37 AM -0600 10/23/00, ben wrote: >Are Outcasts/Renegades bound by their Superior's dissonance terms? Yup! - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:06:20 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched At 10:49 AM -0700 10/23/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Just _why_ does Michael have to be unbeatable? He's >the Archangel of War, not the Archangel of >Invincibility. If he was the latter then he could >just dive into Hell and kill them all off... one demon >at a time. Michael is Heaven's Champion, He Who Beat Lucifer's Ass Down To Hell. IMC, I play him as the one Archangel who's fully, 100% on Lucifer's level. Baal, as a Balseraph, has convinced himself he's on Michael's level but it's delusional. If someone beats Michael in *combat,* then Heaven's Champion is fallible. One of the great questions is answered. The brightness of the campaign drops five notches. (Although! See "The Final Judgement," second vignette at the end. Michael and Baal as champions is an assumption, not a given.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:09:36 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> in nomine questions From: "chris carr" > first, demons dont need to sleep or eat, but do > posessed people? To the best of my memory, sleep and food are not needed while the person is posessed. > second, what does celestial combat look like since no > physical punches are effective? I don't remember whether there is a canonical answer to this. It could be anything from looking like their vessels hitting each other to their celestial forms colliding. > fourth, how can a demon of the dream/nightmare > archangel/princess get to their heart if they appear > at the door to their superiors tower? When an angel or demon's vessel is killed, they appear right at where their heart is. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:22:11 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Thoughts About Michael (was Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 12:49 PM Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched > Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:31:43 -0400 > From: Whistling in the Dark > Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Challenges: Outmatched > > At 10:56 PM -0500 10/22/00, David Edelstein wrote: > >BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > >>> Okay, this one was pretty good. Though the little > >>> fart only won on a technicality. I was starting to > >>> see Michael as being similar to those Mr. T> > >>> websites. Unbeatable. I rather liked that, too. > >> > >>Michael _should_ be unbeatable. > > >Actually, to me that's one of the challenges of these > >stories (and I assume they're not necessarily over > >just 'cause someone ended them. ). You have to > >assume that Michael will win, period. It's making > >the story interesting despite the ending being > >foretold. > > You know, not to be a Unitarian INer or anything, but > I really do have to ask the question: > > Just _why_ does Michael have to be unbeatable? Because *somebody* has to be #1, and if it ain't Michael then it has to be somebody else. And since it's not anyone else in Heaven, then that would mean... .. errr, let's just say that the universe is a *much* more reassuring place to live in when it's Archangel Michael who's still king of the mountain. Chuckg's Theories About Michael: My theory is that God made Michael to be so darn much stronger, tougher, smarter (yes, smarter -- "first in body *and* mind", I believe it says), than everybody else is because even though it would mean that the rest of Creation would have to put up with Mr. "Who da man? I am! I am Da MAN!" going around all the time, the alternative was having natural selection possibly select somebody who'd be a lot worse about it. Let us consider what might have happened if Lucifer had been the stronger one back when him and Michael were wrestling on a mountain-top, for example... Michael, God's most loyal and selfless servant (even Khalid pretty much admits this in his writeup's opinion of Michael), was the ideal choice to create as being so darn much tougher all-around than everybody else that nobody else in the universe can hope to defeat him in a one-on-one. If you want to kill Michael, bring an army, or *several* armies... God didn't make him omnipotent, just tougher than any other single being. But it's part of Michael's role in Creation -- IMO, at least -- to keep *everybody else* humble. Michael doesn't need anybody to humble him... his perfectly loyalty to and submission in the face of God is enough check and balance for that, because Michael has walked through the strongest temptations possible in Creation and not even blinked. God has taken personal charge of the job of keeping Michael humble... largely by creating Michael so that Michael won't need humility lessons in the first place. When God made Michael, God stacked the deck in his favor from day one by giving him way more Forces, more Essence, more etc. than anybody else got. And then gave him a personality that could be trusted with it. This is probably why Michael and Dominic don't relate very well -- Dominic cannot conceive of an angel who doesn't need somebody else (read -- "doesn't need Dominic") watching him to make sure he doesn't backslide at least once, but Michael genuinely doesn't need the monitoring and knows it. Which is how Michael could be found guilty of the sin of Pride by Dominic (because Michael is genuinely proud) and yet still be pardoned by God -- because Michael is perhaps the lone entity in the universe who *can* afford to have Pride by the truckload and yet never, ever, ever even *risk* that Pride leading him away from God. Because even more than Michael wants to win, Michael wants to remain loyal to God. As near as I can tell from any even semi-official writeup or fiction, Michael has spent the entirety of Creation without ever having one single instant of doubt *once*. I don't think there's another angel in the entire universe who can say that. Incidentally, this means that deep down inside it must really suck to be Michael some days. Not everyday, but some days. The possibility of losing is part of what makes the gamble exciting, and Michael has had that taken away from him. Not until Armageddon comes will Michael face a single challenge that he isn't absolutely sure about the ending of already. No wonder he can't wait for Armageddon to get here. Oh, and one other thought -- while Michael cannot win the War for Heaven single-handedly, he is quite possibly the only entity in Creation who can *lose* the War for Heaven's side single-handedly. If Michael ever gets killed, then that means Hell has found something that can take down the mightiest of them all -- which means no other angelic Superior is safe. And if Michael ever Falls.. .. well, *Christ*. Game OVER. Talk about "With great power goes great responsibility." Michael can't *afford* to *ever* screw up anything permanent. That must be a truly soul-crushing load to bear... > He's the Archangel of War, not the Archangel of > Invincibility. If he was the latter then he could > just dive into Hell and kill them all off... one demon > at a time. The thing is, while Michael can smear any single entity save possibly Lucifer himself (Lucifer today, that is -- Lucifer as of the Fall got crushed like a bug on a plate), he can't beat all ten trillion trillion trillion trillion however-many-there-really-are members of the Hordes Of Hell all at once. Even Michael has to step back and regenerate Essence every now and then... and he knows it. (Which is probably part of how God keeps Michael humble -- the realization that there it at least *one* fight he can lose, even if it requires odds of ten zillion zillion to one in the enemy's favor *plus* suicidal idiocy on Michael's part. Fortunately, Michael has enough Ethereal Forces that that kind of idiocy will never be a real temptation.) > Yeah, yeah, I know: there's practical considerations > involved. I'm not being entirely serious, here. > However, just because the big galoot's the most > starkly dangerous entity to ever pick up an axe > doesn't mean that he's automatically going to prevail > in _every_ conflict. Granted, the Word of Conflict (a > possible interpetation of the Word, The odd thing is, if we accept IN canon then Michael has spent over 99.9999999+% of his life *not killing anything*. Think about it. Up until the Fall, there was no reason for angel to kill angel, there weren't any demons to whack, and Lord knows that the angels weren't allowed to hurt the humans. And the Fall was "only" 22,000 years ago -- "only", that is, from the perspective of somebody who looks at 4.6 billion+ year-old angels as his *younger* siblings. I think of this every time other angels disapprove of Michael for being "he's nver done anything but blood, blood, blood" and go "You know, you're really looking at this with a narrow focus..." Or then again, Michael's entire prior life may simply have been as nothing significant to him, just marking time for the War that God knew, even way back when, might possibly come. (Or, depending on your view of God in In Nomine, knew all along would come.) Or maybe Michael's greatest wish is for this damned War to be over, so that he can go back to not having to be violent all the time, because he really really prefers *non*-hostile competitions and this whole War thing has only been one prolonged act of duty to God that, contrary to surface appearances, he doesn't really thrill to... (if you want to get Heretical, that is.) > although it's could be argued tha it's more demonic than angelic... > > Hmm. > > Actually, ignore everything above, if you don't mind. > > ;) Oh, come on. *g* The only vision I have of what would happen if Michael Fell is the one where Dark Michael's first act upon reaching Hell is to start stalking through the Lower Hells with a huge bloody axe, calling "Here Lucy, Lucy, Lucy... I've got a SURPRISE for you!" While Lucifer is busy cowering in the corner and saying an Act of Contrition as fast as he possibly can... (1) - -- Chuckg (1) Credits to whoever posted that one on the digest lo those many moons ago, 'cause I can't remember who it was right now. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1869 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.