From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Oct 27 09:46:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10521 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:46:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA16928 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:43:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:43:32 -0500 Message-Id: <200010271443.JAA16928@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, October 27 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1881 In this digest: Re: IN> Hatiphas question Re: IN> Hatiphas question Re: IN> In Anime Pyramid Notes (You know. Steven King.) Re: IN> Hatiphas question Re: IN> In Anime Pyramid Notes (You know. Steven King.) IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors IN> Re: Mr. Nice Guy Re: IN> Hatiphas question Re: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors Re: IN> I was wondering why I avoided certain Bands and Choirs... Re: IN> Hatiphas question Re: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors IN> Sidekicks: False Hopes... IN> Re: Hatiphas & Zadkiel Re: IN> Sidekicks: False Hopes... IN> Another question about Fate-Bals Re: IN> New PC> Mr. Nice Guy Re: IN> Another question about Fate-Bals Re: IN> New PC> Mr. Nice Guy Re: IN> New PC> Mr. Nice Guy IN> Impudite resonance (was Hatiphas question) Re: IN> Introduction Re: IN> I was wondering why I avoided certain Bands and Choirs... Re: IN> Impudite resonance (was Hatiphas question) Re: IN> Impudite resonance (was Hatiphas question) Re: IN> burst fire Re: IN> Hatiphas question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:45:46 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Hatiphas question At 7:27 PM -0700 10/26/00, Kish wrote: >From: Whistling in the Dark > >Page 64, the Infernal Player's Guide, under "Touchy Situations" for >Impudites: "They try to avoid violent demons...their fellow >Diabolicals rarely sympathize with an Impudite's pain when they >slaughter whoever happens to be in the way." Pain, not Dissonance. A Mercurian hates violence, but can wave in the Malakim. An Impudite finds all dead humans painful -- it's such a *waste,* -- but can endure it so long as he doesn't cause that death directly. When an Impudite orders someone else to kill a human, they are not killing that human. What happens next is still the other person's decision. Their action, not the Impudite's. Don't forget the intense selfishness of the Impudite. If his personal Symphony isn't directly involved, it might as well not be happening. >Telling a Calabite to tear a human limb from limb wouldn't cause >dissonance--but failing to prevent a Calabite from tearing a human >limb from limb (with or without prompting) would. If that were true, every Distincted Impudite would be a pool of Dissonance. For that matter, Nybbas would be a mass of Discord. So would Andrealphus. > Except that, >evidently, in your reading of "...through action or inaction," it >wouldn't. That reading strikes me as very weird, personally, but, if >it's what you get from the main book's section on Impudite dissonance >and the IPG's section on Impudite dissonance, I have no further >evidence to prove it's not the one intended. It is. >That reading also has the effect have making Impudites less >dissonance-restricted than Mercurians (while by my reading, they're >balanced; Mercurians can't use violence personally and directly, while >Impudites can be violent, but not kill, and must act to prevent others >from killing). (Of course, whether that's seen as desireable or not >is a matter of personal taste.) No they aren't. Their balance is the same. A Mercurian can't do X, but can tell someone else to. An Impudite can't do X, but can tell someone else to. The *one* situation where I'd charge an Impudite dissonance is if someone said "I'm gonna kill this human unless someone says otherwise," and he doesn't. That's direct inaction. If he does act and the demon kills the human anyway, no big. But the decision *has* to be the Impudites, and it has to be direct. And while we're on the subject... Impudites and Mercurians have the *worst* complimentary Dissonance conditions of any counterparted Choir/Band. A Fallen Mercurian is the only demon who can Fall by violating their Dissonance conditions, then immediately go Renegade for doing almost exactly the same thing. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:57:58 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Hatiphas question From: Whistling in the Dark >That reading also has the effect have making Impudites less >dissonance-restricted than Mercurians (while by my reading, they're >balanced; Mercurians can't use violence personally and directly, while >Impudites can be violent, but not kill, and must act to prevent others >from killing). (Of course, whether that's seen as desireable or not >is a matter of personal taste.) <> Do X being, "Use violence on a human." <> Do X being, "Kill a human." Those look equal to you? - -- Kish ICQ#: 28085879 AIM: Kish K M Kish_K@mindspring.replacewithcom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:58:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> In Anime Pyramid Notes (You know. Steven King.) Date: 26 Oct 2000 13:35:08 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> In Anime Pyramid Notes On Thu, 26 October 2000, "Yeager, Alex" wrote: >> It's Homecoming week, and each student organization >>has to build a >Dear God. I can't get Moon Unit Zappa's "Homecoming >Queen's Got a Gun" out of my head now.... >Laurence, if course, would be elected King. But I >imagine stiff competition between Lilly and Gabrielle. >Moe, work your elfin magic on this idea. I'm not >sufficiently warped enough to develop it properly. >- -- Casca You sure about that, dude? _I'm_ having difficulty getting past a scenario about Bel trying to fit in, a rigged election for Prom Queen, and a bucket full of pig's blood... ;) Morgan (SAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Not a cookie Elf. A _Beer_ Elf, maybe, but not a cookie Elf. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:05:22 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Hatiphas question At 7:57 PM -0700 10/26/00, Kish wrote: >From: Whistling in the Dark > ><but can tell someone else to.>> > >Do X being, "Use violence on a human." > ><someone else to.>> > >Do X being, "Kill a human." > >Those look equal to you? Equal, no. Balanced, yes. I don't equate Angels and Demons. It's at least as Balanced as "Don't be violent" is balanced with "move if you can." Or the 'balance' of "never let my emotions guide my actions in lieu of rationality" to "follow the oaths I swore myself." Or the balance of being an Angel of David, and therefore unable to attack first or use any ranged weapons, to being an Angel of Eli, with no dissonance conditions at all. If you need a mitigating factor, the Mercurian Resonance is arguably the most powerful in the game. The Impudite is arguably the most limited. I don't equate them, but I find them in balance. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:09:22 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> In Anime Pyramid Notes (You know. Steven King.) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 9:58 PM Subject: Re: IN> In Anime Pyramid Notes (You know. Steven King.) > You sure about that, dude? _I'm_ having difficulty > getting past a scenario about Bel trying to fit in, a > rigged election for Prom Queen, But *everybody* at Higher Heavens High (except those Sheol High ingrates) loves Novy... *sniff sniff* Somebody get Big Mike with one million ccs of Thorazine, stat! > and a bucket full of pig's blood... > > ;) Now where'd I leave that old Jefferson Starship album... *voeg* - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:18:46 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors > > > > Uh. Wow. I'm afraid... Well maybe this is just the first stage. Planning. Which to make which...hmmm... How about all! Eventually. > Just one question, where are the footnotes? Oppsey! > > Gog, Demon Prince of Destruction * > > > Laurence, Demon Prince of Righteousness * > > > Jean, Demon Prince of Electricity > > Allied: Vapula** > > Associated: Vapula**, Nybbas > > Hostile: Vapula** > > > Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Protection *** > * The fact Kobal mentions Malakim as fallen is extremely odd...perhaps he know's something we don't. ** Depends on what time of Day it is *** A great number of her angels are so addicted to her protective embrace that they don't realize they fell. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:24:38 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Re: Mr. Nice Guy > >"Mr. Nice Guy" > > > >Derek > > > >Mercurian of Judgement > > I _like_ this one. Thank you very much. I wanted to make him as unlikeable as possible and spooky yet realize he's still serving people who really are scum. > And watching his fellow Mercs react to him should be an extra bonus treat. Reaction is something along the lines of.... OH MY GOD.... War Mercurians and Wrath are of course conflicted because he serves Dommy. > >Vessel: Human 2/ Charisma +1 > > Looks like Ferris Bueller, of course. One of the key images I had of him is his walking into a Tether of war filled with veterans of conflicts where great atrocities were commited.... "Do you have any metal objects on you?" "Like this?" *watch the Matrix lobby scene after he gets some more Corporeal forces* >Unlikely. This guy is dealing vengeance, not justice. I put it there to turn the Brightness level down a notch or two, it could be it just might take a few more "not as guilty as they should be" inserted by a demon or two to make him fall. Anyways I always felt the defination of Justice was alittle weak for dominic but necessary for those who want to stay a little bit action oreintated in RPGs... Is it prevention (killing those who will not stop and can't be brought in and subdued safely) Or punishment (Killing those who have commited such crimes in a manner that is similar to their crimes) In this edge Mr. Nice Guy pushes the limits on what humans get in return for their sins.... - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:27:33 NZDT From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Hatiphas question >And while we're on the subject... Impudites and Mercurians have the >*worst* complimentary Dissonance conditions of any counterparted >Choir/Band. A Fallen Mercurian is the only demon who can Fall by >violating their Dissonance conditions, then immediately go Renegade >for doing almost exactly the same thing. Yeah that is a good point. Although, a Mercurian who violates his Dissonance conditions through continued violence is probably going to end up serving Baal as an Impudite.... and can get away with violence in an honourable fight. One who keeps playing deadly jokes ends up with Kobal and the Attunement stops him from getting Dissonance. I imagine that Mercurians Fall by violating Superior Dissonance conditions more than other Choirs. I guess that makes Mercurians of Creation who don't like to fight almost unFallable.... Alex _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:27:41 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Phipps" To: Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 10:18 PM Subject: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors [snip] > > > Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Protection *** [snip] > *** A great number of her angels are so addicted to her protective embrace > that they don't realize they fell. Wow, *that* many Habbalites? Or is it a Servitor Attunement? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:42:00 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors >No Archangel has Fallen since the Fall. Counterpoint Ben.... Magog, the Archangel of Fortitude who brought his entire servant base with him really. While some might say he was a servant of David I say he was a minor Archangel like Christopher Also recall alot of everyone (angels and man to God) is formulated by our relationships to others and conecievably if unlikely there is the possibility of a Domino effect. If Yves falls so surely will Dominic If Gabrielle falls so will likely Zadkiel and Khalid If David falls so might Christopher... Alot of Malakim will lose faith as well like in a Final Trumpet but doubly so because of their earthly affinity; Gabrielle after Oannes was hurt bad...this might push her over the edge and Janus too once the other 3 elements dissapear. etc etc etc. If Michael falls watch Laurence hit like a stone. If Novalis falls, watch everyone in heaven go "WHAT THE HELL" - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:58:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> I was wondering why I avoided certain Bands and Choirs... Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:04:09 -0500From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> I was wondering why I avoided certain Bands and Choirs... >Moe does it again. I *like* Grendel. Nice name, too. >I'm not sure he's technically psychopathic, though, >since he's not violent and antisocial in general, >just to demons. >Isn't that ... nice to know? >Earl Well, he doesn't precisely see rebels of his own species as 'real', so I'd have to say that there's at least a sociopathic trend in his thinking. I've got to alter the character's mechanics and clean up the text slightly, anyway. Glad you liked: this one went places I wasn't expecting, or particularly interested in visiting. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:17:12 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Hatiphas question Charles Glasgow wrote: > Let's not forget a slight tip o' the Essence bucket to Guido, the 15-Force> Calabite with the Word of Hired Thugs... Yes, I believe that would fall under the aforementioned category of "Get others to do her dirty work." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:21:33 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors Charles Phipps wrote: > Magog, the Archangel of Fortitude who brought his entire servant base with > him really. > > While some might say he was a servant of David I say he was a minor > Archangel like Christopher You would be incorrect, in canon. >> If David falls so might Christopher... If David Falls, all of Heaven is screwed since David is a Malakite... > If Michael falls watch Laurence hit like a stone. See above. > If Novalis falls, watch everyone in heaven go "WHAT THE HELL" Except Michael, David, and Laurence, who will go "She had to crack eventually." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:42:13 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> Sidekicks: False Hopes... Hi folks. Here's a little submission of mine for the "Sidekicks" constest. Enjoy her! ^^ Constantine Impudite Baroness of Nightmares Demon of False Hope Corporeal 5 Strength 9 Agility 11 Ethereal 6 Intelligence 12 Precision 12 Celestial 6 Will 12 Perception 12 Vessels: Constantine always chooses Vessels that are charming and caring in appearance, and forms that appease those she meet. She prefers feminine vessels for this reason. Skills: Emote/3, Fast-Talk/3, Knowledge(Psychology)/3, Lying/3 Songs: Charm (Ethereal/1, Celestial/1), Dreams (All/1), Harmony (Ethereal/1), Healing (All/2), Nightmares (All/2), Tongues (All/1) Attunements: Balseraph of Nightmares, Habbalite of Nightmares, Impudite of Nightmares, Baroness of Screams, Dream Walking, Terror. Beleth, as all know is focused on making people suffer. But the really skilled torturers don't just hurt their victims endlesslly. They pause their torture with moments of calm and peace, where they actually tend to the victim's wounds, giving them water and food, force-feeding them if needed, to keep them healthy. Healthy enough to continue suffering. Constantine is such an expert in mixing pleasure and pain, and as such has earned favor with her Princess, who enjoys seeing someone who can pervert part of Blandine's sphere of influence as such. And Constantine enjoys her job. As a Taker, she's naturally attracted to humans and their Essence, and enjoys relieving them of the pain they suffer through in their nightares and fears... At least, she enjoys relieving them enough so they can survive their next session of Nightmares. After fledging into an Impudite, Constantine noticed early on into her career that the worst of Nightmares and the strongest of fears were amongst those people who had not known fear, or had already gotten over previous fears. Indeed, she realized early on that the ones who were already frightened and traumatized not only showed less fear, they were beginning to face their fears, and some even overcame them! But she kept in mind that the many who began having hope where also the ones who truly fell to the depths of despair and agony once their hopes were dashed. So she worked on raising people's hopes, just high enough so other demons of Nightmares could crush those hopes even more painfully then before... Her work really began taking shape when Human civilisation began developping Institutions for the mentally ill, and began torturing their patients in the name of healing and medical science. Constantine saw it, and felt that it was good. She began "helping" many of those institutions, channelling funds into Asylums and convincing people to send the mentally ill to those institutions she knew could foster False Hope of healing to patients and their family members alike. She's even helped build a tether to Nightmares in this manner. Even nowadays, she's hard at work in the medical community, helping out doctors and psychiatric institutes who promise results using painful and questionnable methods, fostering Hope which most often leads to pain, rather then results. Of course, since then, she's broadened her horizons... Nowadays, she operates on a much larger playing field then just mental institutions, and has branched out: Any time somebody clutches to a desperate last hope when there really is none, that's False Hope. Charlatans leading desperate families to backrupcy in hopes of buying a false cure; Elderly folks sending their savings to a Tele-Evangelist in hopes of buying salvation; Students who think a lot of coffee and a night's worth of cramming will somehow make up for them not spending a second in class all semester... All of these foster False Hope. Rather ironically, Constantine herself has rather high hopes for her future... She knows her word's strong, and she does all she can to continue promoting it... ...Now, if she could only shake that annoying paranoia that somehow, it'll all come crashing down on her... - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:01:30 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: Hatiphas & Zadkiel > Telling > a Calabite to tear a human limb from limb would be distasteful, but > not dissonant.>> Ah hah, but you gotta learn to think like an Impudite, friends (well, Hatiphas would have to think sorta like a Mercurian, but that's beside the point). Ahem: "Why would you ever want to _kill_ a human or even get one killed? They're so much fun to have around! Even if some pesky sorceror comes up and tries to blow your head off, they're so easy to manipulate into being your pets again. Sure, you may have to give them a good punch in the gut first, but remember that hurts you as much as it hurts them. Try to avoid damaging the property as much as possible. Happy humans are easier to suck essence from. Why resort to violence? Leave that to Calabim. A live human is worth so much more than a dead one. You can twirl them around your fingers and get them to do everything you want. And, if you do an especially good job, they'll even thank you for it." And yes, Eric, a fallen Zadkiel _would_ be a Djinn. I don't know why I was thinking Habbalah. Must have been my Protection racket idea. Revising that, I think a fallen Zadkiel should go for the approach of massive over-protection to the point of being completely controlling. Think like the Overzealous Discord for Cherubs maxed out about 100 times. Zadkiel and Lilith wouldn't get along well, since the Demon of Incarceration would serve the Princess of Protection. Zadkiel's minions would be all over the place, formenting the idea that dividing people up into individual groups and then locking them away from each other is the best form of defense. They would have loved the Cold War and the idea of "a defensive nuclear arsenal." They rejoiced at the Japanese Internment camps that "protected" other American citizens. People of every nation, religion, and creed would be called upon to "protect" their homeland by killing off their neighbors. Zadkiel would be unstoppable in places like Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, and the warring states in Africa. Soon, Baal might have to get worried. Malphas would love the new addition (if he didn't become jealous at her power). Zadkiel fosters the belief that the world is unsafe and you have to take steps to protect yourself from it. In fact, given this stance, if I were Lucifer I'd offer her the Word of Paranoia. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:12:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Sidekicks: False Hopes... A good servitor.... but not really much of a "sidekick", is she? The sidekick contest was to writeup a Servitor who pretty much shadowed their Superior... who had a hand in almost everything they did, and were almost always around. Like Brownen and Dominic, Moe's original "sidekick". That being said, if you still want to roll with this one, why not make her the demon on Beleth's shoulder? The one telling Beleth that Blandine will eventually come back to her... that eventually, she will rule the Marches... that it's only a matter of time until the entire world fears her... while Beleth smiles a glassy eyed smile, letting herself believe it because she desperately wants to believe it. False hopes, indeed. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:23:47 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Another question about Fate-Bals Well, that sparked some interesting discussion. I still think it's... odd... that Hellswearing someone, which is 99.9% certain to damn them to an eternity of torment, doesn't count for dissonance against the Mercurian resonance. But, okay. This brings another question to mind. Say a Fate-Bal picks up Dissonance for violating his false Choir's Dissonance conditions. Does this affect only his angelic resonance, or both his angelic and demonic ones? And vice versa... if he's caught in a lie, does it handicap his Choir resonance? I'd say both, because Dissonance is Dissonance. But it's kinda weird if you think about it ("Oh, no! Failure to act sufficiently angelic is affecting my ability to be an effective demon!"). Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:35:19 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> New PC> Mr. Nice Guy >> Dominic is perfectly pleased with Derek's >> performance because he takes no personal pride in his action > > >Unlikely. This guy is dealing vengeance, not justice. There's considerable overlap between the two. If everyone the Nice Guy kills or hurts deserves what they get, then it's justice. And if that's so, then it makes no difference whether he's shaking his head with sorrow or cackling with glee. IMC Dominic wouldn't be "perfectly pleased" with this sort of behavior -- it smacks a bit too much of the Gabrielite approach, with its emphasis on vengeance and punishment rather than fairness and justice -- but if the outcome was consistently just, he'd tolerate it. I suspect his concern would not be the character's attitude, but whether he jumped through the proper hoops. That is, did he make sure his victim was really guilty; did he check whether rehabilitation or atonement were possible; and did the punishment reasonably fit the crime. If "yes", then I think Dom would nod and move on to the next Servitor. His Merc attunement exists for a reason, and something like this is probably it. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:53:00 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Another question about Fate-Bals Douglas Muir wrote: > > Well, that sparked some interesting discussion. > > I still think it's... odd... that Hellswearing someone, which is 99.9% > certain to damn them to an eternity of torment, doesn't count for > dissonance against the Mercurian resonance. Mercurians are "Friends of Man," not "Friends of Man (as long as he's not a bad guy)." Or as Yves would say, are you willing to just write off that .1%? > This brings another question to mind. Say a Fate-Bal picks up Dissonance > for violating his false Choir's Dissonance conditions. Does this affect > only his angelic resonance, or both his angelic and demonic ones? And vice > versa... if he's caught in a lie, does it handicap his Choir resonance? I believe the dissonance would affect any resonance rolls. > I'd say both, because Dissonance is Dissonance. But it's kinda weird if > you think about it ("Oh, no! Failure to act sufficiently angelic is > affecting my ability to be an effective demon!"). Think of it as "Failure to convincingly maintain the lie that I am an angel is affecting my ability to be an effective demon, which includes my ability to masquerade as an angel!" - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 06:53:32 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> New PC> Mr. Nice Guy > >I suspect his concern would not be the character's attitude, but whether he >jumped through the proper hoops. That is, did he make sure his victim was >really guilty; Look at Dominic's Mercurian attunement. He'd know if the human had committed the crime. I also suspect that whether a given servitor chooses to punish (fairly) or offer the chance of rehabilitation instead is mostly left to his own judgement. So maybe some Mercurians of Judgement will bend over backwards to find mitigating circumstances, using their knowledge of the accused's background, and will go to great lengths to 'punish' a human in a poetically apt manner which will then lead to reintegration into society. For every one of those, there will be another who will punish and move on. The former is really more of a destiny way of looking at things. And the scary thing is that they all understand each other's points of views and get along reasonably well. Just as well really, because unlike other Mercurians, these guys (and gals) don't have many friends in heaven. jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:06:11 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> New PC> Mr. Nice Guy Douglas Muir wrote: > There's considerable overlap between the two. If everyone the Nice Guy > kills or hurts deserves what they get, then it's justice. And if that's > so, then it makes no difference whether he's shaking his head with sorrow > or cackling with glee. Yes, it does make a difference. An angel who cackles with glee as he kills people is acting for selfish pleasure, not out of a selfless sense of duty. Dominic is one of the most "Ends justify the means" Archangels out there, but even he will not approve of his Servitors doing the right thing for the wrong reason; that's too close to dissonance, if not all the way over the line. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:16:52 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Impudite resonance (was Hatiphas question) >If you need a mitigating factor, the Mercurian Resonance is arguably >the most powerful in the game. The Impudite is arguably the most >limited. I used to think so, but I changed my mind. The negative modifiers make it hard for an Impudite to charm and Essence-drain any _one_ human, unless the Imp has a very high Will. OTOH, even an Imp with a will of 7 can zoom through a crowd, shaking hands and smiling, and come out with a fistful of Essence in no time flat. Assume the average human has 2 Ethereal Forces, 2 Celestial Forces and a Will of 4. Further assume that the Impudite is within one yard of the subject, though not touching, giving the demon a +1 on his resonance roll. What are an Impudite's chances to charm? To drain Essence? Imp's Will Chance to Charm Chance to Charm and Drain 5 2% negligible 6 7% negligible 7 14% 2% 8 23% 5% 9 35% 12% 10 49% 24% 11 60% 36% 12 69% 48% Now, this looks pretty bad... even the most powerful Impudite doesn't quite have an even chance of slurping Essence from an average human. But. Imagine the Impudite working the crowd... circulating at a party, waiting for people at a checkout counter, whatever. How many people -- on average -- would the demon have to resonate to get one point of Essence? Imp's Will Average # of victims needed to drain one Essence point 5 hundreds 6 scores 7 50 8 20 9 8-9 10 4 11 2-3 12 1-2 (If the demon can make physical contact -- shaking hands, say -- then his modifier goes up to +2, and his Will is effectively a point higher on this table.) So, if an Impudite has a Will of 8 or higher, and a Role that allows him to dive into a group of humans and socialize for a bit, then this resonance becomes quite handy indeed. If he spends an average of 1 minute per human, then he's going to drain 3 Essence per hour. Even with the occasional pesky "blowback", this will let an 8 Will, 9-Force demon recharge his batteries completely in the course of an afternoon. And a 10 Will demon can suck (on average) 15 Essence per hour! Not only does this mean that he can burn Essence like a blowtorch, but it lets him get rid of Dissonance in a hurry by using the Essence-flush technique from the IPG. Impudites with a 10 Will or higher can *laugh* at Dissonance, as long as they have access to large groups of humans. So, maybe not such a wimpy resonance after all. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:45:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Introduction > > Immortal: the Invisible War (my favorite system after > > IN) > > Wow, someone else actually bought that one. I even ran a > short-lived campaign. A few of the lads have a copy, and are trying to use it as the basis for a IN/WW crossover. I don't know if I like the system, however... O. ===== ** The trouble with being the Best Man at a wedding is that you never get to prove it. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:53:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> I was wondering why I avoided certain Bands and Choirs... > > I *like* Grendel. Nice name, too. > > I'm not sure he's technically psychopathic, though, > > since he's not violent and antisocial in general, > > just to demons. > > Isn't that ... nice to know? > > Well, he doesn't precisely see rebels of his own > species as 'real', so I'd have to say that there's at > least a sociopathic trend in his thinking. I've got > to alter the character's mechanics and clean up the > text slightly, anyway. > > Glad you liked: this one went places I wasn't > expecting, or particularly interested in visiting. :) I like him, too. I think terms like "sociopathic" have some their meanings muddied up by taking into account that IN has more than one intelligent species running around on the planet. Grendel is just Very, Very Focused. O. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:42:29 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Impudite resonance (was Hatiphas question) At 3:16 AM -0400 10/27/00, Douglas Muir wrote: > >If you need a mitigating factor, the Mercurian Resonance is arguably >>the most powerful in the game. The Impudite is arguably the most >>limited. > >I used to think so, but I changed my mind. > [...] > >So, maybe not such a wimpy resonance after all. It's hardly useless, agreed. But a resonance that is almost by definition difficult to use on a Celestial successfully (and admitted as such in the rules) is, as I said, limited. The Mercurian can, with a Resonance Roll, do anything from learn basic self-worth up to learning a person's entire background, with a fairly decent chance to penetrate Roles and certainly the ability to manipulate said target, regardless of their affiliation or power. This Resonance, along with the Malakite Resonance, is one that players will use *constantly.* To the point that people have to have expedients like the Tarot method to keep from having to make up backgrounds on the fly. The Impudite... has a pretty good chance to make a normal Will human think he's pretty cool, and *if* he manages to make said human think that, he has a pretty good chance to get some Essence out of him. Against a Celestial, unless the Impudite has a decent attunement that modifies his roll, it's barely worth trying against Angels. Especially since so many get not only Will Rolls but Perception Rolls against them, and if they succeed at the Perception Roll (which has a - -1 to -6 depending on the Impudite's Resonance Roll, but a +7 to +*9* to the roll assuming a low powered Impudite, all the way up to a +*18* for the most powerful of Impudites), they detect what's being done, instantly telling them there's an Impudite in the area, resonating them. So against Malakim, the Impudite's Resonance is positively hazardous to his health. (And if the Angel has a 12 perception, which isn't too unlikely since his Resonance depends on it, a 9 Force Impudite who's unlucky enough to roll a CD of 1 on the resonance roll is going to have an *automatic* *+8* to the Angel's CD assuming the Angel doesn't roll an Infernal Intervetion. If the Angel rolls a 6, that's a CD of 14. As a GM, I'd be *bloody* forthcoming with a CD of 14 on a perception roll. Heck, I'd be darn open with the minimum CD of *9* in that situation.) It's hardly worthless, but it *is* limited, which is what I said. Compared to all the other Demonic Resonances, it's the *most* limited, and almost any Angelic Resonance is more broadly useful than almost any Demonic Resonance, in the long run. So going back to the original response, I have no problem with Impudites having far more latitude with their Dissonance conditions than Mercurians do. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:23:10 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite resonance (was Hatiphas question) >From: Whistling in the Dark >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Impudite resonance (was Hatiphas question) >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:42:29 -0400 > >At 3:16 AM -0400 10/27/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >> >If you need a mitigating factor, the Mercurian Resonance is arguably >>>the most powerful in the game. The Impudite is arguably the most >>>limited. >> >>I used to think so, but I changed my mind. >> > >[...] > >> >>So, maybe not such a wimpy resonance after all. > . It's much better for NPCs than PCs, because it really isn't very interesting to RP the Impudite resonating crowds of people to get Essence. Unfortunately, in a typical RP situation, the demon is very unlikely to be able to charm anyone when it would be _useful_ (ie. the policeman guarding the evidence of last night's break-in) without spending quite a lot of Essence. Let's face it, how crap is that attunement when it would be easier and less expensive to just use an Ethereal Song of Attraction on the victim? And you don't even need to be an Impudite to do it. So getting the GM to agree that you spend an hour a night shmoozing in clubs to grab Essence is useful, but much less fun than pretty much any other resonance, I think. Of course, with Impudites of Vapula, all bets are off :) jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 06:32:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> burst fire - --- chris carr wrote: > lets say that a weapon has 30 rounds of ammo. now we > use it on burst fire, and the chart says 5. does this > mean we can burst five times, or each use of burst > takes 5 ammo, or we will have 5 ammo left when the > burst is done, or what? I'm pretty sure this means that the weapon fires a 5-round burst. Most modern automatic weapons (except for crew-served monsters) fire 3-round bursts, so a personal weapon with 5-round burst capacity is a munchkin item which a sane GM will monitor carefully. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:43:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Hatiphas question Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:36:01 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Hatiphas question >Hatiphas, the Demon of Sorcery, is a Balseraph of >Fate with the Mercurian attunement. > >Now, I see how being able to resonate humans' >hobbies, friends, goals, etc., would be handy in her >job. But... wouldn't the dissonance conditions >hobble her rather severely? >Her writeup notes that she "systematically destroys" >sorcerors who can't be corrupted... obviously she's >going to have to systematically _indirectly_ >destroy them, or she's going to be a quivering mass >of Discord before too long. If I'm interpreting this >right, she can't even defend herself if a Sorceror >attacks her. You know, none of this would matter if someone here wrote out Hatiphas, Demon Princess of Sorcery. Hint. Hint. :) Morgan (SAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Now wouldn't THAT set the cat among the pigeons. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.