From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Oct 28 13:15:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00439 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2000 13:15:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA31410 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 28 Oct 2000 13:14:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 13:14:07 -0500 Message-Id: <200010281814.NAA31410@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1884 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, October 28 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1884 In this digest: IN> Re: Sidekicks Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Re: Balakim IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion (Deceased), background IN> Mariel (Statistics) Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Lilith's Geas Fair Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion (Deceased), background Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion (Deceased), background Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:42:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: Sidekicks I know I already did one, but what the heck. Besides, I need to get it out of the way, so I can finish up everything else planned for this weekend. ;) Morgan (SAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of You're all gonna make me blush, people... especially since Eric's Gebbeleth freaking ROCKED. Whoa. I mean, it Kicked A** and Took Names. I'd pay MONEY to get my hands on a print copy (expanded, naturally). Whoa. Anyway... Pochereth Malakite Master of Peace Angel of Necessary Violence Corporeal Forces: 6 Strength: 12 Agility: 12 Ethereal Forces: 5 Intelligence: 10 Precision: 10 Celestial Forces: 6 Will: 12 Perception: 12 Word Forces: 15 Vessel: very, very large male/4, Charisma +1 Skills: Detect Lies/2, Emote/3, Fighting/6, Knowledge (What Would Novalis Do?/4, psychology/2, philosophy/2), Large Weapon/5 (axe), Savoir-Faire/2, Tactics/2 Songs: Battle (Celestial/2), Ecstasy (Ethereal/2), Harmony (All/3), Healing (Corporeal/2), Laughter (Corporeal/2), Light (Celestial/6), Might (All/1), Shields (All/3), Stone (Celestial/1) Attunements: Malakite of Flowers, Seraphim of Flowers, Malakite of Stone, Inevitability, Crown of Joy, Master of Peace, Angel of Necessary Violence Angel of Necessary Violence: Pochereth will always know if there's a practical way out of a situation that doesn’t involve attacking someone. With a successful Intelligence Roll, he even knows how to go about accomplishing that happy fact. If there's no other option but to resort to violence, well, he also gets a +3 to his check digits on any attack... Rites: Speak out against unnecessary violence. Successfully manage to settle a situation peacefully, when it seems hopeless (even to Pochereth!). (+2 Essence) Artifacts: Flaming Sword/5 (Well, Flaming Axe) Oaths: "Never suffer an evil to live, if it is my choice." "Never surrender or allow myself to be captured by the forces of Hell." "Never strike the first blow." "Never use a ranged weapon." David isn't known for having his stratagems backfire, but when they do, the results are spectacular. Pochereth was originally a Malakite of Stone, and it was as a Malakite of Stone that he was sponsored for his Word. The idea was that the angel, being under David's jurisdiction, would interpret Necessary Violence 'properly': it was hoped that this would eventually (within a thousand years or so) convince those of Flowers to act more sensibly. An aggravating and annoying ploy, to be sure, but David had postulated that Novalis would sit still for it... and he was right. The smile never even faltered as she voted with the rest of the Seraphim Council to give Pochereth the Word. That - or the fact that Michael smiled ruefully at the entire episode - really should have set off warning bells in David's head. It didn't: in fact, the Archangel of Stone didn't even realize that things weren't going according to plan until a mere century and a half later, when Pochereth came to David and politely announced that he wished to serve the Archangel of Flowers. David was tempted to refuse… but the story was already out, and he had no wish to look petty, even if he was feeling petty. He hasn't talked to Pochereth since, although he declined to strip the angel's Attunements. Possibly the Archangel still expects his errant Servitor to see the light someday. He may be perpetually doomed to disappointment. Pochereth had decided, upon serious contemplation of his Word and its implications, that Necessary Violence was a concept that needed limitations, not excuses. There had to be a standard, and until he better knew what it was, it was best to err on the side of caution. Seeing that the Archangel of Flowers had been effectively saying that all along, she was obviously the best person to follow while Pochereth worked things out. That was seven hundred years ago. In that time, Pochereth has stayed by Novalis' side, except on several memorable occasions. He's one of those very few Word-bound out there who has little interest in promoting his Word. In fact, he'd be very happy to see his Word ultimately become unnecessary. That this would mean his death is immaterial. A world where no violence was necessary would be worth it. The Angel of Necessary Violence considers his Superior to be one of the most courageous and honorable angels to ever exist. Not just physical courage, but moral as well: Pochereth has seen too many celestials that have treated violence as a rationalization - or worse, as a drug. The fact that Novalis is brave enough to not deny her nature, despite the temptations, awes the angel... and he has privately decided that his death is worth her life. Pochereth will face a Demon Prince, or the combined legions of Hell, to protect her, even if it means disobeying a direct order. This is hardly an uncommon attitude among Malakim, but few have Pochereth's determination. For the most part, Pochereth serves as a touchstone for other Servitors of Flowers. He's always looking for an honorable loophole in any tense situation, both by his standards and his Superior's. He can, through long association with Novalis, accurately predict her response to a crisis, and tries his best to keep her point of view firmly in mind when he's trying to assess a problem. His fellow angels respect him deeply, trusting that he'll keep them from doing anything too rash. And, when Pochereth does - very reluctantly - finally pull out his axe to enter a fray, every Servitor of Flowers in the area will go right in behind him, no questions asked. They know that he knows that he holds their Honor in his hands, as well as his own. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:29:12 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Either way, enjoy! Yay ^_^ Cheers, -Ryan "not really much else to say" Elias ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 02:17:53 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> Re: Balakim At 4:55 PM -0400 10/27/00, Jonathan Walton wrote: > I think Balakim should _have_ to take the "destroy evil" oath . . . My little seen writeup of 'the Demon of Delusions of Grandeur, "Balakite" Baron of Fate', has the following Oaths: @BODY:Malakite Oaths: (i) Never suffer an adversary to live, when it is your choice. (ii) Never surrender to, or be captured by, an adversary. (iii) Never question the authority of your superior. (iv) Always protect your interests if they promote the greater fate. In this case, I've changed "Evil" to "Adversary". Due to the fluid nature of his Balseraph Resonance, what defines an "Adversary" is surprisingly different from moment to moment. Making him very _scary_ when he sets his mind too it. > . . . And then just convince themselves that whatever they want to destroy > is, in fact, _evil_. Besides, I always figured that Balseraphs of Fate > manifested their band attunement by believing, deep down in their own > personal symphonies, that they were angels of a specific band. I agree firmly with this position. Which is why Bal-Seraphim are poor-pitiful creatures. Insane beyond comprehension. Suffering from the 'Cassandra' curse. Though I suspect that Kronos lends some of them out to the Game for 'interrogation' purposes. Which is where they _truly_ shine. In my non-canonical descriptions of Bal's of Fate, I've even gone so far as to have the Celestial take on the aspect appearances of the Celestial they are mocking: - Bal-Seraphim: Are a mess, and usually don't last very long before they fall apart into a puddle of dissonance and discord. Though they might appear to be a mutant crossbreed between the bright feathered-serpant Seraph, and the bat-winged snake Balseraph. - Bal-cherubim: Tough looking, and attempt to look like cute furry animals and not a winged serpent. - Balfanim: Red-yellow-orange colored, and are coiled around themselves in a series of loops. - Balohim: Slightly androgynous looking, they have smooth-featureless skin. Their eyes are large and anime like. They also have a calm, dignified aire about them. - Balakim: Have blue-black scales, and black _fleathery_ wings. - Balatates: Like the Balfanim, except their scales are multi-colored and they're more compacted in appearance. Sort of like how a Snake would look like if you tied it into several knots, but that they knots keep moving around. - Balcurians: They take on more 'human' features, especially in the facial region. Their body is probably arranged such that it might be mistaken for human in the shadows, but they remain otherwise 'Balseraph' shaped. > So, Balakim would actually believe that they were Malakim and that they spent > their time destroying all those "evil" members of the heavenly host. Yep. >I find it rather beautiful actually. Better than Habbalah. Agreed. They are the most deluded of the Balseraphs. Right up there with the majority of the Habbalah. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur # http://www.thrifty.net/~tafkaj/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:36:36 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion (Deceased), background Eric's Gebbeleth writeup has inspired me to dust off Mariel, the mad Demon Princess of Oblivion, and tweak her a bit. Your comments, thoughts, and feedback are very welcome. Doug M. * * * * * MARIEL Demon Princess of Oblivion "The World is a horrible mistake. It should not be, or, better yet, it should never have been." History The Elohite Mariel was once the Angel of Memory. Heaven's record-keeper, she was the brightest servant of bright Raphael, Archangel of knowledge. Mariel was the first angel to venture timidly inside the Library, back when Heaven was new; Yves, it is said, opened the door for her and then showed her through endless corridors of empty shelves, waiting to be filled. Mariel served for many centuries as Heaven's reference librarian. In those innocent days, the concept of "security" barely existed; Central Records was still part of the Library, and information was free to all. So when Lucifer began requesting curiously detailed files on Heaven's most powerful servants, Mariel was happy to be of service to the great Archangel of Light. She worked closely with his assistant (a young Cherub of Judgement named Asmodeus) to give Lucifer all the information he asked for, humbly trusting that it would be put to some great and good use. And when Lucifer had all the files that he needed, he paused for a moment to contemplate the naively smiling Elohite. And then he took her aside, and spoke with her for a little while... Mariel came to dwell more and more upon certain unhappy truths: how memories shift and lie so that nothing is certain, how no two souls can ever agree on perfect Truth, and how all records are ultimately subjective distortions. These thoughts were a nagging worry to her at first, then a secret shame, and finally a torment and a horror. She did not Fall, though, until near the end of the Rebellion, when she realized that she had given Lucifer the tools to mar the universe and perhaps unseat God himself. In hate and grief and vast despair, Mariel tried to destroy the Library. She failed, but her last act before departing Heaven was to burn Central Records... which does much to explain the confusion of the early years of the War. And then she went to Hell. As a Habbalite, Mariel still believed that she was serving God. Her world-view was bizarre even by the liberal standards of that Band, though. She hadn't been wrong to help Lucifer! She had been following God's will! It was the _other_ angels who had been naive and deluded... and by allowing the First Balseraph to deceive them, they had proven their lack of worth. The world was hopelessly tainted and flawed at its creation. God had allowed it to be infected with falsehood and subjectivity. Then his "angels" had failed to defend it against a rebellion based on subjective truth. God's will, therefore, must be that his crippled creation should recognize its own imperfection and destroy itself. Mere physical destruction, while laudable, was not nearly enough; the world ought to be obliterated _as if it had never been_. Lucifer, in what may have been a rare moment of humor, granted Mariel the Word of Oblivion, and the new Princess set to work with a will. Many of the missing pieces in human history are Mariel's work. Great works of art were destroyed and forgotten, libraries burned and crumbled to dust, tribes and cities and even whole empires disappeared and were forgotten forever... and Mariel smiled. Outlook The Princess of Oblivion was always one of Hell's looser cannons. Driven by guilt and hatred, Mariel was unpredictable, irrational, and violently nihilistic. Though aggressive in pursuing the War (Mariel thought that Armageddon would be a good thing no matter who won), she rarely cooperated with other Princes, and paid little attention to Hell's politics. In some ways, Mariel might be considered the Infernal equivalent of Uriel. Both were radical, hard-core, and uncompromising; both demanded incredibly high standards of their Servitors. Mariel actually admired Uriel... from a distance, as the feeling was certainly not mutual. It's rumored that she occasionally worked with some of his Servitors, if not with the Angel of Purity himself, to eliminate certain... imperfections in the Symphony. In person, Mariel presented as quiet, intense, and utterly mad in a coldly rational sort of way... Saminga without the high-camp ranting, perhaps, or Vapula without the smile. Nobody remembers just what Mariel looked like, though Haagenti claims to remember how she tasted. Alliance with Gebbeleth [I like Eric's interpretation here, and so am running with it] The Gebbeleth-Mariel alliance was the closest and most enduring that Hell ever knew. What they had was not love, but it satisfied some deep need in each of them. Gebbeleth needed an audience, a confidante and a victim; Mariel needed... to be punished, perhaps. The alliance was not altogether reliable; occasionally Gebbeleth would push his lover just a little too far, provoking terrifying outbursts of rage. Wise Servitors learned to be somewhere else at these times. Still, the relationship gave both Princes much more power than they would have wielded otherwise; for this, if for no other reason, they kept returning to each other. In the end, of course, both the members of Hell's longest and strongest alliance ended up dead. This may have been an accident, of course... but other Princes have drawn a different lesson, and there has not been another such since. Mariel's Fate As time passed, Mariel's isolation and frustration grew; for all her good work, humans kept learning things and *remembering* them. The world grew older and more complicated, but showed no signs of self-destructing. The disappearance of Gebbeleth was a deadly blow. It not only weakened her position in Hell, but it left her more psychologically isolated and unstable then ever. In her final years, Mariel became steadily more erratic and dangerous. The advent of Legion seems to have been her last hope for universal oblivion, and his destruction left her in despair. It is said that at the end, when Haagenti broke through her inner defenses, she spread her arms wide to him and laughed. Mariel's servants scattered quickly after her destruction; most went to either Saminga or Haagenti, with a handful serving other Princes. A few still hold her attunements, but (except for her former Servitors) for the most part Hell has already forgotten Mariel. Still, one occasionally encounters the rumor that Mariel's Fate was not quite complete... that there was something more to it. Whatever it may have, been, though, remains shrouded in oblivion. Mariel's Principality has also been lost to history, though all agree that it was somewhere in Stygia, and legend says that her palace stood above the springs of the river Lethe. At least one expedition has tried to go up the river, hoping to find Oblivion's lost citadel and whatever treasures it might yet contain. Unsurprisingly, the expedition never returned, and its fate remains unknown. Former Servitors Ex-servants of Oblivion are not common, but there are more than you might suppose; because Mariel was a very demanding Superior who relentlessly weeded out the weak, they tend to be tough survivors. Most have at least 11-12 Forces, and many have Words. And, of course, they're quite good at going unnoticed... Mariel's former servants are most commonly found serving Death, Nightmares, Secrets, Fate or the Game. At least one of her Barons has regained that rank (the Demon of Coverups, who now works for Asmodeus). All of her attunements and distinctions may still occasionally be encountered, and there are probably at least a couple more that are not recorded here (or anywhere else). There is still a certain lingering camaraderie among former servants of Oblivion. Like Uriel's Tsayadim, they still consider themselves a corps d'elite, and can occasionally wax nostalgic about the bad old days. It would be very unwise to rely on this sentiment affecting their behavior, of course. And the rumors about secret reunions must be considered unlikely at best. Other Rumors and Whispers Hardly anyone mentions Mariel any more, but a few old legends still occasionally pop up. For instance, there's a persistent rumor in Heaven that she was on the verge of Redeeming when Haagenti took her out. It's true that she was one of the few Fallen who seemed to feel some flicker of guilt over her actions (and to be tormented by it accordingly). On the other hand, given that Mariel was one of the more brutal and vicious Princes, probably this was just wishful thinking on Heaven's part. It's fact -- not rumor -- that Mariel cleaned out her desk before she left Heaven. That is, she departed the Library with every relic and artifact that she could grab, including some that were unique and very powerful. But exactly *what* she brought to Hell remains unclear. One of her servants babbled wildly of something called "the signature of God"... No Superior examined the Symphony as obsessively and closely as Mariel (though Vapula has come close). She hoped to find a source code... a way to crash the entire system from within. One rumor is that she was on the verge of success. According to this, it was Mariel, not Saminga, who was responsible for the creation of Legion. She had found a cheat code, a way to override the Symphony's normal restrictions on the Shedite resonance. Saminga was just a convenient dupe, which explains why he has never been able to replicate the Legion experiment. Legion having almost succeeded (this rumor goes), Mariel was ready to try again with an even deadlier resonance hack... something that would let a Balseraph lie on a global scale, perhaps, or allow a Habbalite to actually channel the divine. But Lucifer used a dupe of his own to remove her from the game, and took her work for himself, for use at some future crisis of the War. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:36:46 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Mariel (Statistics) Dissonance Demons of Oblivion were charged with destroying records, subverting memories, and in general trying to break up the continuity of consciousness. It was dissonant for these demons to make or keep a record of any sort, or to help anyone else record or recall anything. Band Attunements Balseraphs -- Balseraphs of Oblivion add their Ethereal Forces to their resonance roll when trying to make someone either forget or ignore something. Those who survived Mariel's destruction have found work as Hell's "Men in Black", helping to keep the great secret of the War. Djinn -- These Djinn know the location of all records pertaining to their attuned, and are aware whenever new records are made. If they attune to a record, they become aware of all copies of it. Calabim -- These Calabim can use their resonance to destroy information. On a successful reference roll, they can wipe words out of books or figures from a painting... without otherwise disturbing or damaging the rest of the item, if they so choose. Also, Calabim of Oblivion *triple* the check digit of a successful resonance roll to simplyu destroy anything that carries information (books, scrolls, sculpture, paintings, etc.). Habbalah -- Mariel's Habbalah can, with a successful resonance roll, inflict Mariel's world-view upon their victims -- that is, convince them that the entire world is a disgusting, horrible abortion that should never have been. The effects of this will vary depending on the victim; some will become suicidal, others violently destructive, while some may merely become deeply cynical. In any event, Habbalah using this attunement get no backlash except on an Intervention. Lilim -- Lilim of Oblivion can Geas their victims to forget things. Furthermore, they always know at once if there is something that the victim *needs* to forget. Shedim -- By expending Essence and winning a contest of Wills, Mariel's Shedim can wipe memories from their hosts. The Essence cost depends on the importance of the memory to the host, from 1 for relatively minor memories to 6 for things like the ability to read or the host's own name. The Shedite can do this once per victim per day. When the Shedite leaves, the host gets a Will roll for each memory, with a bonus equal to the Shedite's Essence cost; if he fails, the memory is permanently wiped and gone forever. Impudites -- An Impudite of Oblivion can convince his Charmed victims not to pay attention to something that they otherwise would. If the victim is being forced to ignore something *very* important (skipping a crucial meeting, letting a small child wander off unattended), he gets a Will roll to resist, but making the roll does not break the charm -- it just means the victim won't ignore this particular situation. Servitor Attunements Lucifer's Palimpsest -- This is an earlier version of Alaemon's "Lucifer's Document Shredder" attunement (and nobody knows how he got it, either). It allows the demon to make information-storage media blank itself utterly. 1 Essence destroys about 400 written pages. Fade -- Once per day, for a period of 10 minutes, this attunement allows the demon to become forgettable. People will tend not to notice him (-3 on all perception rolls), he will leave no clues or traces, and any record made of him will get lost or disappear. Focus -- The demon can cause someone to focus obsessively on something, to the point of becoming dangerously oblivious to everything else. The demon must touch and speak to the victim, and spend 3 Essence; a Will roll can be made to resist. If it fails, the Focused person will ignore everything around him or her to concentrate absolutely on a single task (which he will perform at +1 to his skill level, for what that's worth) for hours equal to the check digit. Direct attacks on the victim will give him another Will roll to snap out of it. [Tip of the hat to Vernor Vinge, and if you haven't read _A Deepness in the Sky_, let me recommend it.] Distinctions Knight of Oblivion-- A Knight can, with a touch and the expenditure of 1 essence, cause a victim to forget the last thing that the Knight said or did. Victims get a Will roll to resist, but if they succeed, the Essence is not spent. Captain of Expunction -- With a few minutes of conversation, Mariel's Captains can cause a victim to forget or ignore any one thing or person that is not immediately present. The memories are not erased, but the victim will not think of that person or thing until it is forced upon their attention again. Baron of the Silence of the Symphony -- When a Baron disturbs the Symphony, he makes the normal amount of noise, but anyone who perceives it must make a successful Will roll and then react to the disturbance immediately. Otherwise, they get distracted and forget about the disturbance, no matter how large it may have been. Relations Mariel's rampant nihilism made her unpopular with her fellow Princes; she had no allies at all afte Gebbeleth disappeared (which made her that much more attractive a target, of course). Malphas admired the starkness of her world-view, while Asmodeus seems to have felt a certain chilly respect for her dating back to their work together before the Fall. The more destructive Princes found her tolerable. Otherwise, most of Hell's Superiors disliked her, and the more "worldly" ones (and her former Servitors) hated her outright. In retrospect, it's surprising that she lasted as long as she did. Allied: Gebbeleth (Gebbeleth was allied to Mariel) Associated: Asmodeus (Asmodeus and Malphas were Associated with Mariel) Neutral: Saminga, Belial, Meserach Hostile: Everyone else, except for Enemy: Andrealphus, Kobal, Haagenti (briefly) Basic rites: - -- Destroy the last existing copy of a book (up to +3 if the book was widely read) [remember that Mariel's time was before the spread of printing] - -- Thoroughly destroy a work of art that took at least 100 hours to create - -- Distract someone from something important that s/he really should be attending to Invocation chance: 0 Invocation modifiers +1 Destroying a book or other written record +2 Someone in a deep, dreamless sleep +3 Someone in a coma, or destroying the last record of a human's existence +4 A true and complete amnesiac +5 The ruins of a library, destroyed within the last hour +6 The ruins of a city that has been completely lost to history * * * * * So, there she is. Thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:39:23 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) This was very good. Thank you. >Why not do exactly what I was thinking? Because someday, I'd like the >chance to submit them for publication in a Historical Superiors book >or the like. Well, I know of at least five other proto-canon dead Superiors waiting for their chance to run the Line Editor's gauntlet: David Edelstein's Raphael, Uriel, and Genubath, and my Mariel and Meserach. So, the Dead Superiors list presently stands as follows: Angels: Metatron, Seraph, possibly an Archangel. Word unknown ("the Voice of God"); destroyed in the Fall Oannes, Archangel of the Waters, choir unknown, killed by Vephar Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge, killed by Legion. The APG states that Raphael was a Cherub, but David's writeup has him/her as an Elohite (which I prefer, personally). Uriel, Malakite Archangel of Purity, taken to the Higher Heavens. Demons: Beelzebub, the first Prince of Corruption, a Shedite, killed by Uriel Gebbeleth, Balseraph Prince of Secrets, killed by his own cleverness in "Feast of Blades" Genubath, Prince of Rapine, vanished when Valefor stole his Word. Band unknown, but David has him as a Shedite. Legion, Shedite Prince of Corruption, killed by Raphael. Makatiel, Prince of Disease, band unknown, killed by the forces of Dominic and Asmodeus. Mariel, Princess of Oblivion, devoured by Haagenti. Band unknown, but I have her as a Habbalite. Meserach, Djinn Prince of Sloth, devoured by Haagenti. Vephar, Calabite Prince of the Oceans, killed by Oannes. I count three dead Archangels -- four if we count Metatron; his exact status is unclear -- and eight Princes down. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:14:46 +0100 From: "I. Inayat" Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Muir" To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 9:39 AM Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) > Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge, killed by Legion. The APG states that > Raphael was a Cherub, but David's writeup has him/her as an Elohite (which > I prefer, personally). S4 has her as an Elohite (Vapula's write-up, p. 111), and the IPG mentions 'Jean, her [Raphael's] fellow Elohite' on p.15. I think the Cherub reference is errata, now... > Genubath, Prince of Rapine, vanished when Valefor stole his Word. Band > unknown, but David has him as a Shedite. (According to G:IN, a Calabite, p.81 & 132. Don't know if those refs are going into canon.) > Makatiel, Prince of Disease, band unknown, killed by the forces of Dominic > and Asmodeus. Habbalite. From Dominic's write-up in S1, p.42. Imran ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:58:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Geas Fair > Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:26:03 EDT > From: Samovar3@aol.com > Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Geas Fair > > >What? Not a travelling folk music concert? Not even > once? > >I want a refund. > > You see, that was set up as a distraction for > Judgement, the Game, > Revelations, and Secrets. They all _knew_ that > something had to be going on > with that, but it was mostly innocent (from the > celestial activity view, > anyway). > > The lilim of Dark Humor that set it up got kudos > from both Kobal and Lilith. > > Sam > Besides, _never_ go to a concert run by Lilim: "They want an encore! They're all shouting for it!" "Hold on: I'm letting the Need build up a little more..." ;) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:33:49 -0400 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) On Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 12:14:46PM +0100, I. Inayat wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas Muir" > > Makatiel, Prince of Disease, band unknown, killed by the forces of Dominic > > and Asmodeus. > > Habbalite. From Dominic's write-up in S1, p.42. > And in traditional angelology, Makatiel was one of the Angels of Punishment (malak habbalah). References, references...here's one. Not the best, but the quickest: http://www.angelicinspirations.com/page71.htm. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:22:12 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion (Deceased), background At 4:36 AM -0400 10/28/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >Eric's Gebbeleth writeup has inspired me to dust off Mariel, the mad Demon >Princess of Oblivion, and tweak her a bit. > >Your comments, thoughts, and feedback are very welcome. > Very very nice. I'm going to finish up the one I'm working on too, and I'll be interested in your thoughts. Why am I working on one too? Again, just fleshing out what was in my head during the Alaemon writeup, particularly the precursors sidebar. It's a very different take, though no more "legitimate." Philip Moyer's reborn Mariel, Princess of the Void is another take, and also cool. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:29:37 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Douglas Muir wrote: > Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge, killed by Legion. The APG states that > Raphael was a Cherub, but David's writeup has him/her as an Elohite (which> I prefer, personally). The APG has been errata'd to make Raphael an Elohite. > Beelzebub, the first Prince of Corruption, a Shedite, killed by Uriel > > Gebbeleth, Balseraph Prince of Secrets, killed by his own cleverness in > "Feast of Blades" > > Genubath, Prince of Rapine, vanished when Valefor stole his Word. Band > unknown, but David has him as a Shedite. > > Legion, Shedite Prince of Corruption, killed by Raphael. > > Makatiel, Prince of Disease, band unknown, killed by the forces of Dominic> and Asmodeus. > > Mariel, Princess of Oblivion, devoured by Haagenti. Band unknown, but I> have her as a Habbalite. > > Meserach, Djinn Prince of Sloth, devoured by Haagenti. > > Vephar, Calabite Prince of the Oceans, killed by Oannes. > > I count three dead Archangels -- four if we count Metatron; his exact > status is unclear -- and eight Princes down. I really think Demogorgon should have been a Prince, too. I was new to writing IN when I introduced him, and so didn't argue strenuously enough when there was some concern about introducing another deceased Superior. I think I could have had him made a Prince, rather than just an aspiring Prince, had I pushed harder. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:48:55 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) At 11:29 AM -0500 10/28/00, David Edelstein wrote: >I really think Demogorgon should have been a Prince, too. I was new to >writing IN when I introduced him, and so didn't argue strenuously enough >when there was some concern about introducing another deceased Superior. >I think I could have had him made a Prince, rather than just an aspiring >Prince, had I pushed harder. I agree with that... but wonder., I know it's not truly Canon, but in David's writeup of the Duke of Cities, he implies that the difference between a Princw and an aspirant is sometimes just the declaration. Couldn't that open the door for a Demogorgon writeup? At least an unofficial one? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:08:11 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I know it's not truly Canon, but in David's writeup of the Duke of > Cities, he implies that the difference between a Princw and an > aspirant is sometimes just the declaration. Couldn't that open the > door for a Demogorgon writeup? At least an unofficial one? Well, canonically, becoming a Superior is a state-change, though the exact cause of that change is a little vague. (In the case of Demon Princes, it's presumed that Lucifer has to initiate it, but that could well just be what Lucifer wants everyone to believe. We have yet to see whether or not a Fallen Archangel would automatically remain a Superior.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:58:28 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) At 4:39 AM -0400 10/28/00, Douglas Muir wrote: > >Why not do exactly what I was thinking? Because someday, I'd like the >>chance to submit them for publication in a Historical Superiors book >>or the like. > >Well, I know of at least five other proto-canon dead Superiors waiting for >their chance to run the Line Editor's gauntlet: David Edelstein's Raphael, >Uriel, and Genubath, and my Mariel and Meserach. Gebby's not proto-canon, per se. I assume that unless we were discussing a purely dead Superiors book that each Superior writeup would need to be two pages or so, so the background would need lots of trimming and the mechanics would need considerable tweaking. >Mariel, Princess of Oblivion, devoured by Haagenti. Band unknown, but I >have her as a Habbalite. You know, I could have sworn I'd mentioned her as a Djinn in Sup4, as part of the precursors. Either I'm remembering wrong (very possible) or someone in the editorial process (several folks) may have trimmed the mention, for room or to not haphazardly lock canon in a throwaway line. The nce thing is, I can put my Djinn trauma child out, and not converge on you Habbalite a'tall. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:02:57 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion (Deceased), background >>Your comments, thoughts, and feedback are very welcome. >> > >Very very nice. Thankee kindly. >I'm going to finish up the one I'm working on too, >and I'll be interested in your thoughts. Okay... looking forward to it. >Philip Moyer's reborn Mariel, Princess of the Void is another take, >and also cool. Really! URL? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:13:45 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) At 12:08 PM -0500 10/28/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: >> I know it's not truly Canon, but in David's writeup of the Duke of >> Cities, he implies that the difference between a Princw and an >> aspirant is sometimes just the declaration. Couldn't that open the >> door for a Demogorgon writeup? At least an unofficial one? > > >Well, canonically, becoming a Superior is a state-change, though the >exact cause of that change is a little vague. Oh, I know that. That's why I said it wasn't truly canon. I guess my only point is Demogorgon might have been on the cusp of that state change when Belial destroyed him. Here's a question for the panel, though. We know a Remnant retains his or her Word when Remnantized. If the Remnant is a Superior, and some kind of graft puts a new Celestial Force on said Remnant, do they emerge as a Superior, or as a Word-Bound? (We're stipulating the new Celestial Force for these purposes. We can discuss the probability or lack thereof of that at another date.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1884 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.