From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 19 02:01:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11288 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:01:35 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id CAA04769 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:00:59 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:00:59 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190800.CAA04769@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1980 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1980 In this digest: IN> Zamboni! Say it loud, say it proud! ZAMBONI!!!!! Re: IN> Answered Prayers... Re:IN> New Minor Band IN> mmmmm....... sticky....... Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so. Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement Re: IN> Campaign ideas. I'm not too bright tonight (was: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so) IN> Re: Choirs/Bands Re: IN> mmmmm....... sticky....... Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> mmmmm....... sticky....... Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so. GenCon (was Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so.) Re: IN> mmmmm....... sticky....... Re: I'm not too bright tonight (was: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so) IN> Saminga in Love> CONTEST! Re: IN> [Saminga in Love] The Demon of RPGs Re: IN> Choirs/Bands Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement Re: IN> Re: Choirs/Bands Re: IN> Answered Prayers... IN> Best choirs to run/play (was Campaign ideas) IN> Arisia IN> "Then a wind blows through your heart..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:05:18 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Zamboni! Say it loud, say it proud! ZAMBONI!!!!! Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:50:43 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner-Thornber Subject: Re: IN> Saminga in love quotes of villany >First of all, it's a really funny word to say. >(Zamboni. Zamboni. ZAMBONI. Now I'm sitting here >saying it. ZAMBONI!) (stunned look) My God. I thought that I was the only one who did that. Really. Moe (Who's now trying to think up a Demon of Zambonis. Or maybe a cheesy sorceror called the Great Zamboni. Yeah, _that_ would be funny.) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:12:46 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Answered Prayers... Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:33:22 -0400From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Answered Prayers... Oh, this one is just _nasty_. Excellent. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:12:32 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re:IN> New Minor Band From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> New Minor Band On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Michael Walton wrote:> > --- Maurice Lane wrote:> > Sycophants > > > (Narcissists, Toadies)> > > Nasty. I like. One quibble: in canon, Andre is > > paired against Eli, > > not Laurence. >Why would that have any effect on who they serve when >they redeem? I see why a redeemed Sycophant would >serve Laurence - they'd make great trainers and >aides. Can't see that they'd be that useful for >Laurence. Well, a Redeemed Sycophant becomes an Adjutant, a minor Choir of mine that Laurence favors. Much like Fallen Cherubim become Djinn. I've got a list that I pulled off the Digest from someone: the connections on it don't equate to the standard oppositions, which why I'm using it. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:29 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: IN> mmmmm....... sticky....... http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/molasses/molasses.html This has Kobal written all over it!!! Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:21:58 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 5:02 -0500 12/16/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Interesting. I guess that means that certain routes to power are more >expensive (pt-wise) than others in GURPS. Doesn't sound all that balanced >to me, but hey, we're only human. That's been the case pretty much since the first psi powers were introduced in GURPS Humanx (vs. magic from G:Fantasy for similar abilities). It got lots worse when Supers came out. (It wasn't even internally consistent with point balance. And personally I don't believe Supers games *can* be balanced using a mechanical point-based system without introducing a lot of GM fudging.) >>I certainly think they're justified. In fact, I had some long discussions >>with Kromm about Body-Hopping, which he wanted to be even more expensive. > >Hrm. Well, I dunno how expensive it is now, so . . . 80 points. Kromm wanted something around 120 as I recall. Eventually the fix was to make Celestial Form be a prereq for Body-Hopping. Basically Kromm didn't want the "bare" Body-Hopping ability to migrate into GURPS proper at the 80-point cost. >>And if such powers were defined in In Nomine, those Superiors would >>probably >>include them that way. As it is, it's more of a GM-fiat thing in IN. > >I see it more as a "GURPS has it, so let's take advantage of it" thing. Some, yes. But mostly because GURPS has more of an attitude of "if it's not on your character sheet, you don't have it", while IN is more of "only the most critical stuff is listed to simplify character creation" model. On the whole, the IN GM is encouraged to be looser about characters than a GURPS GM is, since GURPS attempts to define game mechanics for *everything*, and IN only for the most crucial stuff. To some extent that's related to system age, and some to design decision. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:24:10 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so. Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:31:35 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so. >"LAURENCE, WHY PRECISELY ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE THAT >BABY DEMON PRINCESS AND GOING GOOTCHY GOOTCHY GOO AT >IT?" >----Genevieve Genevieve, have I mentioned lately how much I wish that you would post more often? :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:25:17 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 10:00 -0500 12/16/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>>In fact, the first version of the IN power mechanics were mostly based >>>on GURPS psi powers. It was a real mess, and they were generally >>>*more* expensive than they are now, when all was said and done. SJ >>>mercy-killed that version, thankfully. >> >>Interesting. I guess that means that certain routes to power are more >>expensive (pt-wise) than others in GURPS. Doesn't sound all that balanced >>to me, but hey, we're only human. > >What made the point totals come out wonky were the rules for enhancements >and limitations, and how those enhancements and limitations worked out. >Remember that there are minimum costs, yadda, yadda. O:> Actually, the demonic ones were the worst, since most of them had to be based off of Mindwipe, single-skill only (which isn't even legal in normal GURPS). It needed a ton of modifiers to work right, and the results were often crazy. Similar problems arose with a lot of attunements that were mind-affecting powers of one sort or another. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:33:23 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:29:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement At 11:03 AM -0800 12/18/00, Maurice Lane wrote:> (flipping munchkin switch)> >>Fair enough. So whoever has the Seraph of Flowers >>Attunement just walks up to random demon in crowd of >>same and gives him a hug ... just before the three >>snipers four blocks away put six rounds into said >>demon's head, >Yup! Which is why Novalis would take whatever Seraph >did such a thing, strip it of its attunements, and >probably proceed to gently pot it and leave it on >Earth in some place where it would... learn some >lessons. >If you could convince the Seraph to do it in the first >place -- remember their dissonance conditions. (Or any >other Servitor of Flowers who has it, for that matter. >Aiding and abetting violence when it's not The >LastChoice is badbadbadbadbad.) I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. Michael doesn't need a Seraph of Flowers to do this trick. Mike needs an angel with the Seraph of Flowers Attunement... and as long as the Host doesn't recycle their Remnants, Mike can get them. However, seeing as I've suppressed my inner munchkin for the moment, let's shift the topic a tad. The default assumption, IIRC, is that neither side really doesn't do much about Remnants. Anybody got an opinion, one way or the other, about Superiors that would salvage them ... or break them down for raw materials? Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:35:26 -0600 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> Campaign ideas. At 5:52 PM -0600 12/18/00, Matt Diederich wrote: > I'm starting up a campaign for In Nomine. That's always good. > It's my first time running the game, and I'm terribly excited about it. Three words: No Mercurian PCs. No Merurian PCs. Repeat. This is the mantra of a Games Operation Director who _knows_ the hell that is the Mercurian Check-Digit. Feel free to use this as much as possible with a NPC of yours on the PC's. Make them learn to despise the Mercurians. > My players came up with this idea to accomodate the fact they were new to the > game system. They would be mortals - chargened as mortals. Over time they > would 'learn' their Celestial status and I would decide based on their > roleplaying what Superior/Choir they were aligned with. > Great! I thought. This is a way for us to jump into RP and allow them to > learn things in-character. Good ideas. Really. Go with it. It makes learning the system so much more fun! Especially when it turns out that one of the PC's is a Djinn of the Game, with Humanity. . . > 1. Aside from the relic mentioned in the first Superior book (Or maybe the > second, it was late when I read it last night) are their any mechanisms to > 'make' a Celestial forget who/what they are? Finger of Oblivion is the Liber Reliquarum, and the Ethereal Song of Oblivion from Liber Canticorum. Either of these can be used to make Celestials forget. (There's also 'Oopey', but most of you wouldn't know what that was.) > 2. What do y'all (Jeez, now I'm writing like a Texan) think of the idea? There are worse things. . . };;;> >Matt. >Er. Um. I don't have a title yet. *tsk-tsk* Get one! Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur # http://www.thrifty.net/~tafkaj/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:35:53 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: I'm not too bright tonight (was: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:28:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so. At 5:03 PM -0500 12/18/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >>Clearly, Moe should go to Arisia as a result. Don't >>look for reasons why. Huh? >Well, if he does, I hope that someone tells me so I >can pack the special ink concentrate and doner kit. 2x(Huh?) :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:37:07 -0500 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: Choirs/Bands > Actually, there are many traditions of 'kinds' of demons. Things like > Succubi and Shedim (yes indeed) and the like. Yeah, but those all (at least, so I gather) came out of legends about a specific demon. For instance, there were probably stories about demons named "Syccubus" and "Shedim" at one point or other. But you generally get the feeling from reading about diabolicals is that they are an extremely diverse lot. Each individual demon is more or less completely unique in form, expression, and its particular habits of tormenting humanity. Whatever the case, my point was mainly that there's no background that supports having each Choir of angel Fall to become a specific type of demon. Partially this is because the Choirs aren't very distinct overall, but it seems to be also making the point that organizing in specific groups is an angel thing. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 05:47:57 From: "Daniel Gallagher" Subject: Re: IN> mmmmm....... sticky....... >http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/molasses/molasses.html > >This has Kobal written all over it!!! > >Reverend Brian A. Rogers Hell yeah. I bet it formed a tether. A big old sticky tether stright to Shal-mari, though maybe Saminga would complain a little bit. I mean 21 people died a big sticky death. Or Maybe Belith because I sure there were people still having Molasses nightmares. Maybe I'm just rambling. I'll stop. Daniel Archangel of Slackers "The world is... hey, pass the Doritos" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:51:20 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 5:31 -0500 12/17/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>At 5:02 AM -0500 12/16/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>True -- and indeed, the original draft had all the angelic "knowledge" >>resonances based off of Telerecive with various "Truth only" style >>modifiers. > >hrm may I ask what caused the point cost to be too great? The modifiers >for a lack of resistance roll (and detection roll). Somewhat; as I stated elsewhere, the angelic resonances weren't the worst. Demonic powers were much more complicated, and the costs crazier. Basically, the probability of the calculated point cost being reasonable seemed to diminish rapidly and roughly linearly with the number of modifiers I had to apply. I'm now convinced than any power that uses more than 3 enhancements or limitations is rather suspect for point cost. (I except the GIN appendix for mechanics since those point costs were mostly reverse-engineered with at least one "author-fiat" modifier to get the "right" answer, in my opinion.) >>80 points for Body-hopping. (The limit is no longer on Forces, but on >>ST+IQ+DX+HT, and a total number of hosts within that.) > >Hrm. One level of Duplication is cheaper (only by 5 pts). Interesting. Kyrio multiplicity doesn't come from Body-Hopping, but from the Mindshare power in Compendium I (and Aliens, and elsewhere). So Duplication isn't a comparable power. Kyrio resonance is *mucho* expensive: 175 points total. That's one of the reasons why GURPS IN breaks with GURPS tradition and allows variable starting-point costs for starting characters, depending on what they are. You'll see when you get the book. All the resonance mechanics, along with Celestial Form, Vessels, and some other stuff are defined fully in the book; only attunements got relegated to the appendix -- now the web pages -- due to the incredible clutter they caused when in the mainline text. >Yes, oh yes. One of my players is really looking forward to her Malakite of >War to finally have the martial art skills she's envisioned her having. That's partly why we did it. Unfortunately, due to different mechanics, the feel will diverge a bit from how it would play out in IN proper, but it *should* feel truer to the background material that it would be if we'd left it out. Otherwise, a Hong-Kong martial artist would have been able to mop the floor with a Malakite of War. And that simply didn't ring true. In the GURPS version, demons should *dread* running into War servitors, if they have a half-way decent character design. >Essence Question. I don't remember where I read it, but evidently the Blood >Pool route of conversion was looked down upon by Evil Stevie. So, will >fatigue be the substitute for essence as it is in GURPS:Blood Types (fatigue >replaces any notion of Blood Pool or the ilk). I think Elizabeth addressed this, mostly. Basically, we did have a Fatigue based mechanic for a long time in the draft, under the belief that we couldn't use a separate point pool. I happened to like the scheme we had, but it did cause some relative power balance problems with celestials vs. humans, since we simply couldn't let celestials have Essence the way humans regain Fatigue in GURPS without totally changing the feel of the game (everyone would have been flinging Songs around with abandon). The final solution was to essentially import the whole Essence thing into GIN as is, and it works *almost* identically with the IN version. Again, you'll see the details when you get the book. Essence values are identical almost everywhere between the two systems. (I think there are still one or two places where we tinkered slightly with an Essence cost; I don't recall offhand where they are, or the exact reasons for the changes -- but they're due to GURPS mechanics differences, I'm pretty sure.) >Should I just wait to get my copy of the book? (which has already been >purchased, I just get to wait, oh, another week to a week in a half) >Or, can you answer this? Yes, and yes. I'm more inclined to answer questions about why we did something than the details of what we did, which can mostly be found in the book. >Its just that with my quick-paced GMing style, the PCs almost never have >enough Essence as it is, and if the ratio of Essence cost to Essence Pool >tips even farther into making Songs expensive . . . Generally it should play nearly identically to existing IN Essence behavior. Essence is *supposed* to be a scarce resource, and used sparingly in IN; it should play that way in GURPS:IN as well. The biggest difference is that in GURPS:IN, Impudites are somewhat more effective at obtaining Essence, due to core stat differences mostly. *They* probably won't feel as short of Essence as they seem to in regular IN, at least for PC Impudites. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:05:29 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 1:15 -0500 12/18/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>MASTER OF THE ARMIES OF GOD >>Rapier Wit [5], modified with No Quick Contest Required (+50%), Usable >>Through Live Media (+50%), Only To Terminate A Discussion (-50%), Not On >>Groups Of People (-50%); add 5 points for Rank, bringing the total to 10 >>points. > >Rapier Wit? ha ha ha . . . One of the problems during the conversion is GURPS' lack of mental powers that *aren't* based directly on psionics. That led to some, ah, creative re-interpretation of other powers at times. Rapier Wit is one of the few mind-influencing abilities that *isn't* psionic in nature, or a regular skill anyone can learn. (Powers based off skills are a *real* pain -- I had a few of those mixed in, in the first draft.) >>@BODY:Cherubim of David: Telekinesis (p. B172) at Power 16 (maximum >>500 lbs.) [64], No Roll Required, +66%, only affects mineral objects, -30%, >>can only draw things toward user, -30%, range is limited to Corporeal Power >>yards, -10%. Total cost: 62 points. > >Looks fine to me. But look at all the "author-fiat" modifiers I snuck in there to try to get the power cost to something I considered reasonable. And it was still higher than I wanted most attunements to be, or thought was reasonable for that power. (Admittedly one of the more innately powerful ones... note that the original IN power has *no* weight limit -- try to find a finite GURPS cost for that!) >(As is swapping >>ST for hit points and HT for fatigue.) > >Hmmm . . . that might not be a bad idea for GIN when I run this QTR. I >dunno, depends on how vessels work and whatnot. :) I'd recommend it. The vessel mechanics don't really interact with that much, but ST-based hit points feel a lot closer to how IN does Body Hits than the GURPS HT-based ones -- HT doesn't have a clear analog in IN, really. > That and having Children of the Grigori following in the footsteps >of their INS/MV counter parts: the Psis (who are the decendents of Adam and >Eve from the Eden Experiment). I plan to use the Psionics rules in place of >the INS/MV Psi rules, since the INS/MV rules are so limited in scope. Well, GURPS IN introduces the IN mechanics for Children, and they're not psis, really, at least in the GURPS mechnics sense. (What people *think* of them in-game is something else, sometimes....) [And let's please not restart the "Why are Children in GURPS IN and not in mainline IN?" flame/whinewar again.] - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:06:31 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> mmmmm....... sticky....... At 12:13 AM -0500 12/19/00, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/molasses/molasses.html > >This has Kobal written all over it!!! > >Reverend Brian A. Rogers I made reference to that in my Boston writeup. It's just so... perfect. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:07:19 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so. At 9:24 PM -0800 12/18/00, Maurice Lane wrote: > >Genevieve, have I mentioned lately how much I wish >that you would post more often? Ayyyyyymen! - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:18:53 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: GenCon (was Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so.) At 22:48 -0500 12/18/00, Aaron Medwin wrote: >I make it a point to go to GenCon every year(well, the past two and all the >ones in the future), and both years so far, I've been disappointed at the >lack of IN present - while I pushed the books on my friends, official SJG >support has been, well... uh... what support? Official SJGames support at GenCon the last couple years for *any* SJGames product has been mostly lacking -- the reason is . Even when SJGames had a substantial presence at GenCon, most of the scheduled events using their games were run by outsiders, or unofficially by semi-insiders. I ran GURPS events at GenCon for a number of years; there were some minor incentives to do so, actually, but that wasn't why most GMs ran their games, I believe. Personally, Elizabeth and I have been absent from GenCon the last couple years (or maybe it's three now). We may get back there once Io-chan grows up a little, and can tolerate the trip. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:23:22 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> mmmmm....... sticky....... At 5:47 AM -0500 12/19/00, Daniel Gallagher wrote: > >Hell yeah. I bet it formed a tether. A big old sticky tether stright >to Shal-mari, though maybe Saminga would complain a little bit. I >mean 21 people died a big sticky death. Or Maybe Belith because I >sure there were people still having Molasses nightmares. Maybe I'm >just rambling. I'll stop. Less than twenty miles from the Harvard Lampoon? Oh, I think the Tether situation's all set for Kobal.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:27:28 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: I'm not too bright tonight (was: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so) At 9:35 PM -0800 12/18/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:28:35 -0500 >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Subject: Re: IN> Yes, I'm afraid so. >At 5:03 PM -0500 12/18/00, Whistling in the Dark >wrote: >>>Clearly, Moe should go to Arisia as a result. Don't >>>look for reasons why. > >Huh? > >>Well, if he does, I hope that someone tells me so I >>can pack the special ink concentrate and doner kit. > >2x(Huh?) Don't think, Moe. Thinking is bad. Arisia is good. www.arisia.org. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:35:08 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Saminga in Love> CONTEST! >Well then has there been a Saminga in Love contest? The Michael and Dominic >contests produced some good fan-fiction. A Saming in love contest would in >the least produce some amusing stuff, and it would all benifit the cause of >Saminga. Muhahahahahahah! Indeed so! Very well I announce the official SAMINGA IN LOVE CONTEST! Saminga gaurentees in a rare show of mercy (snicker) that he will allow you the priviledge of dying last barring any unforseen developments like a bad mood, angels, or Saminga wanting to kill you when he smacks lucifer against the wall and installs himself as the new bad arse in town. The rules are simple * Fan Fiction * Characters * Artifacts or anything really else related to Saminga as your entries but a prefference to helping find the Grim Reaper aquire that "special someone" - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:43:31 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: Re: IN> [Saminga in Love] The Demon of RPGs >- -- I don't suppose PKing in online games, or playing Myth obsessively, do >much to serve Saminga's word? Not especially no. Saminga might recieve the essence if someone spends essence to make sure they off someone (it is after all worship of death) but Gary mostly does it because he's too lazy most days to get out of his chair and slaughter a bunch of innocent bystanders. Saminga does however have an Demon of "Video games devoted to Death" which are surprisingly effective though moody trips where you play some sort of undead creature who slaughters alot of people. Saminga actually is just waiting for the words to turn entire legions of impressionable young minds into murder crazed lunatic necromancers thus allowing him to ascend mightily over the Word of Media and become the....well he already is but boy that little twerp annoys the most powerful evil in the universe. Similar words serving this end of creating more serial killers includes "The Angel of Bad Monster movies after 12 p.m." which neatly cuts into Beleth's realm as the Habbalah tries to command people to spill the blood of the innocent (like Chicago records) >"But, Sire! This way a human can experience Death again and again!" > >...No. You have no idea how often he gets this excuse from Samingaites playing Diablo online. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:46:56 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Choirs/Bands Actually, different choirs are described as looking different (such as Seraphim with the many wings, Cherubim as sphinxes, ofanim as flaming wheels). I choose to have seperate choirs, each choir surving a particular archangel. However, the closest thing that Hell has to bands are the fallen versions of angels, who tend to look like twisted versions of their heavenly selves. The Imp-Born can look like anything, and the Lilim tend to look like twisted versions of whoever Lilith mated with (with the addition of the haunches of an ass). Hell has nine legions (this is sorta based on folklore), each one applying to one of my nine demon princes. So for instance, we have the Legion of Flies serving Beelzebub, and the Legion of Serpents serving Belial. There are no special powers associated with these legions though. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Walton To: Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: IN> Choirs/Bands > > Okay, the one place where In Nomine REALLY departs from real source > material on angels and demons is the whole idea of choirs and bands as the > equivilant of "races" or "character classes" for Celestials. I'm not > arguing against this idea, because I think it really works in a game > context, I'm just saying that it's not representative of the pictures we > get of the real Celestial heirarchy. > > What's the real different between Seraphim and Cherubim in religious lore? > Not much, really. Seraphim have more wings and Cherubs have more eyes (or > vice-versa, depending on who's description you use), but that doesn't > really mean much. It seems that the whole idea of Choirs of angels is > mainly just there to explain the heirarchy that exists in Heaven, which is > partially one of power, but mostly one of honor, based on a specific > angel's relationship with God. > > The whole idea of the demonic equivilent of Choirs is completely made up, > am I right? I haven't been able to find a description of anything like > that anywhere. It seems that in most religious thought, the heirarchy of > Hell is purely one of power, with the most powerful demon, Satan/Lucifer, > at the top and with it descending in some kind of scale below him. In > fact, in the whole process of falling, the demons seem to lose a good > portion of their individuality and become, simply, demons. > > What do you guys think of the idea of basing a non-canon campaign on > something closer to this version of Celestials? How would it be better and > how would it be worse? > > Just a few thoughts. > Later. > Jonathan > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:58:19 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement From: "Maurice Lane" > > Anybody got an > opinion, one way or the other, about Superiors that > would salvage them ... or break them down for raw > materials? Aside from Vapula? They'd make a good source of that Chimera drug... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:58:06 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Choirs/Bands I'd like to disagree. There are sources for Lilim (demon children of Lilith), succubi and incubi (though some sources simply treat these as generic names for demons), vampires (originally Arabian demons), etc. However, they do not relate in any specific way to choirs (so succubi are not fallen powers, for instance). There is no real connection that direction. And in most cases, there are not specific bands for demons. In most cases, its only the obscure occult tomes that try and codify demons. In Demonbane, a Fallen demon's former choir does not really affect what he is now. Lucifer may have been a seraph, Azazel may have been a malakite, Dacarabia may have been a cherub, but it really does not affect how they are like right now. I actually have a huge table (meshing the random demon table from the 1st ed D&D DMG, the random tables for hordlings in the MMII, and many other tables) for rolling the appearance of demons. They generally are not defined to particular types, but chaotic and unformed. Some demon princes have found specific forms that they like, and so a fair amount of demons are of a specific type: like demon locusts or incubi, but in general demons are individual in appearance. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Walton To: Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 9:37 PM Subject: IN> Re: Choirs/Bands > Yeah, but those all (at least, so I gather) came out of legends about a > specific demon. For instance, there were probably stories about demons > named "Syccubus" and "Shedim" at one point or other. But you generally get > the feeling from reading about diabolicals is that they are an extremely > diverse lot. Each individual demon is more or less completely unique in > form, expression, and its particular habits of tormenting humanity. > > Whatever the case, my point was mainly that there's no background that > supports having each Choir of angel Fall to become a specific type of > demon. Partially this is because the Choirs aren't very distinct overall, > but it seems to be also making the point that organizing in specific groups > is an angel thing. > > Later. > Jonathan > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:17:17 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Answered Prayers... >Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:33:22 -0400From: Douglas >Muir >Subject: IN> Answered Prayers... > >Oh, this one is just _nasty_. Excellent. Well, thank you very kindly. But don't you think it's just a little... weird... that we posted longish writeups of Servitors of Dark Humor within half an hour of each other? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:23:20 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Best choirs to run/play (was Campaign ideas) >> It's my first time running the game, and I'm terribly excited about it. Welcome aboard. It's a great game. > Three words: No Mercurian PCs. No Merurian PCs. Repeat. They are a lot of work, it's true. Best Choirs for PCs (from a GM's POV), in order: Cherubim. Easy to run, easy to play. Their resonance is simple and it's not hard to roleplay a guardian angel. The only tricky bit is enforcing the protect-your-attuned rule; there is a modest temptation to munchkinism ("Super Tracking Power! Kewl!") Ofanim. The resonance is a little challenging at first, because it's really three resonances in one -- move fast, find the best route, and be agile. But once you're used to it, it's quite easy to handle, and this Choir is also easy to role-play. There's some wiggle room in the Dissonance conditions, so you can adjust this to fit your campaign and players. Watch for Ofanim PCs who take lots of high Agility skills, especially Dodge -- they can be tricky. Seraphim. Easy to run, not so easy to play. Always telling the truth is something of a challenge, and the typical Seraph is, well, the Most Holy. Of course a PC doesn't have to be typical. Elohim. Right in the middle... how appropriate. Not as easy as they look. The dissonance condition is a real judgment call ("I think you're letting emotions sway you." "No, I'm being totally reasonable"), playing a "Mr. Spock angel" can be quite challenging. And the Elohite check digit, while not as awful as the Mercurians or Mals, will often require you to make up stuff in a hurry. Bright Lils. Canon says they're rare rare rare, but somehow there's one in every campaign. Fun coming up with interesting backstory, but beware PCs who try to use this for fun and profit ("A demon? Hey, do I know this guy?"). Moderately annoying resonance, especially if used repeatedly ("What does this guy Need? Okay, what does this guy next to him need?"). Keeping track of Geases involves bookkeeping for both PC and GM. Beware of compulsive Geas-collectors. Kyriotates. Fun but challenging to play, can be a real pain in the ass to run, for obvious reasons. Enforce dissonance conditions firmly. Mercurians. Not too hard to play, awful to run. Gaah, the hideous check digit of doom. Double that if you're using the extra tables from the APG. Either make up a lot of possible answers beforehand and jot them down, or be ready to compose on the fly, often, because players will use this resonance a lot. Finally, Malakim. Hard to play right, hard to run. Attractive to both rules lawyers (oaths can be twisted all sorts of ways) and munchkins (ooh, killer angels, kewl). Make it clear to would-be Mal players that it's not the Mal resonance that kicks ass -- it's am honor meter/bad-guy detector, not an ability to zap. Like the Merc resonance, will require you to make up a lot of stuff in a hurry. Well-played Mal PCs are great, but it's work for both GM and player. Me, I'd keep those last two Choirs out of a beginning campaign. It's certainly doable, mind you; just more work for you. Alternately, set things up so that the character has a low Perception, and so can't rely on his resonance. >> 1. Aside from the relic mentioned in the first Superior book (Or maybe the >> second, it was late when I read it last night) are their any mechanisms to >> 'make' a Celestial forget who/what they are? > > Finger of Oblivion is the Liber Reliquarum, and the Ethereal Song of >Oblivion from Liber Canticorum. Either of these can be used to make >Celestials forget. Ethereal Song of Oblivion. But (1) in canon it's a secret song, known only to Servitors of Alaemon, and (2) you'd have to use it repeatedly to make a celestial forget what he was. The nasty Finger is probably your best bet. Or maybe an experimental piece of Vap-tech, or a really strange joke on Kobal's part. Angels who think they're human would still hear the Symphony, and disturbances to it. If they use their resonances "instinctively", things get interesting. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:55:36 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Arisia Well, I'm going. Will I see any of you there? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:58:00 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> "Then a wind blows through your heart..." The recent discussion of Mercurians reminded me of this character. Some of you may recognize her, as I posted an earlier version a bit over a year ago. Comments welcome, as always. * * * * * The lawyer raced up the stairs of the rented beach house. A brisk wind was blowing whitecaps off the waves and throwing little skirls of sand across the deck. _She's going to be so excited_, he thought to himself. _I can't believe I've actually done it, but..._ He paused at the top of the stairs, catching his breath. _She was right. I was stagnating at the firm. Two hundred thousand a year, a corner office, and I was... dying inside. She was right._ He laughed out loud. "Gordon's face, when I told him I was resigning to do public interest work!" The door swung open at his touch. _She'll be so excited._ "Mary?" It was the longest moment of his life: the empty room, the closet door hanging open to show where her clothes had been pulled carelessly off the hangers. The place where her suitcase had been... "...Mary?" * * * * * "There's no time to lose, I heard her say Catch your dream before it slips away... "Goodbye, Ruby Tuesday Who could hang a name on you? When you change with every new day Still I'm gonna miss you." - -- The Rolling Stones * * * * Smoke swirled thick in the crowded nightclub. Outside in the alley, though, the winter air was crisp and clean, and stars twinkled frostily down from a clear November sky. A cold wind whipped old leaves and trash past the steps of the back exit. The young woman struck a chord on her guitar, then another. She had cut the tips off of her gloves; underneath, her fingers were calloused from years of playing. _Too damn cold for this_, she thought. _I'll have to tune it all over again before I start my set._ She shivered a little under her coat. _Chris loved this weather. Chris would run for hours in this cold._ Behind her the door swung open, letting out a gust of warm air and a sudden clatter of voices and music. "Lisa? On in five, hon. Hey, what are you doing out here anyway?" "Too smoky inside." She struck another chord, then three in quick succession, then suddenly flicked out a swift series of notes, bluegrass picking but in a strange minor key. "I just wanted some fresh air." The bouncer cocked his head, listening. "Hey. That's really good, Lisa. Is it new?" "...Yeah." "Everybody says you've been doing some great stuff lately. Since you got back from California, I mean. Did you take lessons or something?" "...Lessons. Yeah, you could say that." "Well. What do you call that?" _Driving Death Valley with Chris_. "Driving Death Valley." Something in her voice made the bouncer stare for a long moment. Then, "Well. On in three." She nodded, and he shut the door. Lisa sat very still, looking up from the alley at the distant, tiny stars. _It's true,_ she thought. _I am better. It's more... real for me, now. Is that what you meant, Chris? There at the end?_ The wind passed by, and said nothing. After a moment Lisa got up and went inside. * * * * * Love that which you will never see again. -- Breton Proverb * * * * * He looked at the gun in his hand. Had it really come to this? "I can't," he said, and then stopped. Can't what? On the table, his wife and children smiled up from the picture frame. "I can't forget you," he said. He realized that he was sobbing, but it all had come to seem very distant. Only the gun was real, cold and heavy in his hand. "I can't be what you wanted me to be." She had told him that it would all change. It had, but -- "I can't go on," he said, raising the gun. * * * * * Cyrele, Mercurian of the Wind 2 Corporeal Strength 3 Agility 5 3 Ethereal Intel 7 Precision 5 4 Celestial Perception 10 Will 6 Role (none) Vessel - 2 Charisma - +2 Acrobatics - 1 Climbing - 1 Detect Lies - 2 Emote - 3 Dodge - 1 Fast Talk - 1 Lying - 2 Running - 3 Knowledge (Disguise) - 4 Seduction - 3 Songs Ethereal Form - 3 Corporeal Healing - 2 Ethereal Attraction - 3 Celestial Attraction - 2 Discord - Need (movement) - 2 Sometimes a broken heart can be a good thing. Cyrele travels from place to place, using her skill at disguise to change her appearance. She has no fixed Role. Her self-assigned task is to jolt mortals out of their ruts and open them up to positive change. Her method is to become briefly, deeply, intensely involved with them, and then to disappear. Cyrele is the Lost Lover, the brief but incredibly intense affair that changes a life forever. In each new destination, she'll resonate as many local humans as possible, searching for the ones she can help. Whenever possible, she'll focus her resonance to look for the things that will make a human _truly_ happy (that is, she rolls on the special Mercurian Resonance table on pg. 62 of the APG). If she finds something that would bring real, lasting happiness (a roll of 5 or 6 on this table), then she may start a relationship with the human in an attempt to turn him towards this thwarted desire. With 2 levels of Charisma, Seduction - 3, the Song of Attraction and her resonance working for her, few humans can resist when Cyrele comes whirling into their lives. It usually takes her just a few hours to completely enthrall her chosen subject. Cyrele's liaisons may last anywhere from a single night to a couple of months. As a Servitor of Wind, she has to keep moving, so she won't have a relationship for more than three days unless she can persuade the human to come away with her. More than one hapless mortal has found himself abruptly swept away on trips that go on for weeks -- a luxury cruise, or a cross-country hitchhiking expedition, or a series of jet-setting stops across the globe, or a protracted road trip in an ancient pickup truck. Cyrele uses this time together to repeatedly resonate the human and also pick his brains through more conventional means. Once she has a clear picture of her lover, she'll try to push him (or her) towards a better life: more satisfying, more caring, more constructive generally. Her ultimate goal is to knock mortals out of their ruts; if her methods are sometimes a bit rough, well, she is serving the Wind. When it's time to go, Cyrele usually simply packs up and disappears, though she may arrange a set-piece parting scene if she thinks it will better serve her purposes. She may also abscond with wallets, cars, Swiss bank account passcodes, or other valuables! After all, this can be another way to knock humans out of their ruts; it may help some humans get over her faster; and, of course, ready cash can help her get along between relationships despite her lack of a Role. Not all of Cyrele's liaisons are sexual (although most of them are, since that's the best way to really get at a human in a hurry). Nor does she confine her attentions to the male half of the species. All mortals need some sort of jolt, after all, and she responds to needs and desires, not to age, gender, social status, looks, or any of the other cues that get us humans interested. Cyrele has had several signal successes -- jolting humans from despair back into life, or from selfishness into caring. She has also broken at least one human free from the malevolent influence of a demon. On the other hand, she's had some awful failures too. At least one human has killed himself over her... and since this violent act also harmed his family, it hit her with enough dissonance to cause a level of Discord on the spot. Several other humans have inflicted dissonance on her by lashing out violently against themselves or others as a direct result of her actions. Cyrele's tactics are really a bit too rough for a Mercurian, and she can't help but accumulate the occasional point of Dissonance... humans are possessive and unpredictable, and can easily turn violent when the object of their affections disappears. Since it's difficult for Servitors of Wind to work off Dissonance (mobile Tethers and a Superior who's quite hard to summon), Cyrele has accumulated two levels of the Need Discord. Her Discord manifests itself as a Need to put her body in extremely vigorous motion for at least four hours per day -- two hours per level of Discord. She usually does this by running, dancing, or high-impact aerobic exercise, although biking or cross-country skiing will work too. She must do this in order to regenerate Essence, and since she has to burn Essence on Songs fairly regularly, this means she has to run or dance almost every day. She explains to her lovers that she's a professional dancer, or training for a marathon, or just very into fitness. Other Servitors of Wind don't find her Discord too off-putting (Ofanim have trouble recognizing it as Discord at all), but the constant explaining is more than a bit of a nuisance. Furthermore, it's fairly distinctive, and so would make it much easier for an interested party to track her between appearances. Cyrele has made several attempts to invoke her Archangel, hoping to get it reduced or removed, but without success. She's beginning to get a little bit worried. With 12 Body hits and no combat skills, Cyrele prefers to avoid combat; she's a lover, not a fighter. In a physical confrontation, she'll simply run, as she can outrun most humans and celestials. If there's a crowd around, she'll dive into it, using her attunement to eel her way through it without being slowed. In a real pinch she'll go Celestial, as she's less vulnerable on this plane -- it's noisy, but what the hell. Though not any kind of fighter, Cyrele would make an excellent spy. Even by Mercurian standards, she's got a remarkably good understanding of humanity (at least in certain aspects). And there are a number of powerful humans who would do more or less anything for her if she showed up on their doorstep. Cyrele operates unsupervised, and has only occasional contact with other Servitors of the Wind. She hasn't been back to Heaven in some time now -- with so many unhappy mortals here on Earth, what's the point? She's very dedicated to her job, but this very dedication may lead her into real trouble if she keeps accumulating Discord... PCs encountering Cyrele may well mistake her for a demon -- a Servitor of Lust, say. Even if they make her for an angel, her Discord may fool them into thinking they're dealing with an Ofanite. She'll be quite cautious around suspected celestials until they can prove themselves angels. Cyrele would make a very useful (if temporary) ally for a friendly party, and could quietly cause some serious trouble for a hostile one. Cyrele may be ready to switch to another Superior. She'd have to change her tactics if she wanted to work for Novalis or Gabriel, but her interest in improving human lives might just qualify her for a place with Yves... if someone could make the case for her. OTOH, demons might consider Cyrele an excellent candidate for Falling. And they might be right. She'd make a scary Impudite, whether for Valefor, Andre, or Kronos. Cyrele is a balanced starting character, ready for play. (Or I think she is, anyhow. Questions, comments, thoughts?) Doug M. . ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1980 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.