From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 21 07:53:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29117 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:53:16 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id HAA25111 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:52:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:52:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200012211352.HAA25111@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1984 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1984 In this digest: Re: IN> GURPS and Grigori... what the heck? Fwd: Re: IN> I just had the nastiest idea... IN> New buddy for the AA of SCIENCE! (Heretical, sorta) IN> Cleverest use of attunements... Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS and Grigori... what the heck? Re: IN> Applied Psychology Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement Re: IN> I just had the nastiest idea... Re: IN> I just had the nastiest idea... Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:22:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS and Grigori... what the heck? At 8:28 PM -0500 12/20/00, Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki wrote: >> >I was... quite... surprised by the information about the Grigori in GURPS >> >In Nomine. The *detailed* information on their resonance, their dissonace, >> >everything... I was wondering when this was going to appear in an In Nomine >> >supplement proper, or if it had appeared somewhere and I missed it somehow? >> >> Oiy, this should be a FAQ... > >Yes, I checked the FAQ and couldn't find it there, either. ;) Clearly I need to catch Karakash... >I guess the follow up question is: How canonical is the info on Grigori in >GURPS: In Nomine? If not immediately, can we at least expect to see the >normal In Nomine stats eventually? I certainly hope so; they were what we and SJ decided on. >And assuming they *are* canonical, since the "cat is out of the bag" as it >were, with regard to GURPS: In Nomine, perhaps the In Nomine stats and info >should appear on a web page somewhere, or a Pyramid article? This is something Alain or SJ would decide, not I. (I suggest the general sjgames@io.com account.) >P.S. BTW, since I wasn't on the list when it happened (IIRC), I'd like >congratulate Archangel Beth on the baby. ;) Thanks! The Princess of Cute was decanted 2/17/00 -- 2 months premature... This doesn't seem to have fazed her much. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:49:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> I just had the nastiest idea... >Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:41:47 -0600 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /^\s*who\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 4 > >From: "Janet Anderson" >Subject: Re: IN> I just had the nastiest idea... >Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:40:46 > >>Couple that with the fact that Impudites seem to be >>more likely than most to engender personal offspring, > >W h o sez? > >More likely to succeed in seducing anyone they want (especially humans), >yes. More likely to engender personal offspring, no. > >I don't believe demons in general are likely to have children very often for >two good reasons: > >1) It involves unselfishness. > >2) If the word for "child" and the word for "hostage" isn't the same in >Helltongue, it should be. (I believe this was pointed out somewhere in the >APG.) > > >Janet Anderson > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:55:45 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> New buddy for the AA of SCIENCE! (Heretical, sorta) Well, this one went weird fast. I was _trying_ to write up a nice, simple silly piece, but apparently my subconscious has different plans. Who knew? (shrug) Hope you all enjoy: BTW, the webpage's getting updated tomorrow night, including stuff never before seen! Not much new stuff, but some. :) Moe Gladys Mercurian Vassal of War Angel of Passions Corporeal Forces: 5 Strength: 10 Agility: 10 Ethereal Forces: 5 Intelligence: 8 Precision: 12 Celestial Forces: 6 Will: 12 Perception: 12 Suggested Word Forces: 17 Vessel: human female/3, Charisma +3 Skills: Artistry (painting/3, writing/3), Fighting/3, Emote/3, Knowledge (erotic arts/6, how to recognize Servitors of Lust on sight/6), Large Weapon/3 (sword), Musical instrument/3 (lute), Savoir-Faire/3, Seduction/6, Ranged Weapon/3 (rifle), Singing/3, Tactics/1 Songs: Charm (Corporeal/3), Ecstasy (Ethereal/3, Celestial/3), Empathy (Celestial/3), Form (Celestial/3), Harmony (Ethereal/1), Light (Celestial/6), Might (Corporeal/3, Celestial/3), Numinous Corpus/3 (Claws), Shields (All/3) Attunements: Mercurian of War, Malakite of War, Mercurian of SCIENCE!, Vapula Special #1, Vapula Special #2, Vassal of War, Angel of Passions Vapula Special #1: The Archangel of SCIENCE! seems addicted to giving out unique Servitor Attunements. This one allows Gladys to enter any gathering or party and subtly shift it away from destructive behavior with a Perception Roll. Vapula Special #2: Here's another one. Gladys may see the one positive thing that a target has always wanted to do, and inspire him or her to do it. The target must make a Will roll (minus Gladys' Ethereal Forces) or immediately attempt to achieve his secret dream. If the secret dream is potentially life threatening, Gladys will only suffer dissonance if the target actually dies while achieving it. Angel of Passions: 1). Gladys is immune to any attempt to artificially enhance or suppress her emotions. She often gives this out as a Servitor Attunement. 2). Gladys can recognize someone ruled by passion, what type of passion it is, and whether or not it has been artificially imposed. By making a Perception roll, she may aid an attempt to break the latter: the target makes an immediate Will roll to shake off the effects, with a bonus equal to the check digit of Gladys' Perception roll. Rites: : Encourage a human to go do something that will expand their mental horizons. : Help someone master his or her passions. : Help someone express their deepest desire, provided that the desire isn't evil. Gladys is another one of Vapula's Refugees from his Redemption, and she's a disquieting one at that. Not that she's nasty or anything. Even for a Mercurian, Gladys is very, very nice (although also very, very emotional). Her Word may have been given with insane speed, but that's par for the course with the suddenly-Redeemed that came along with the Archangel of SCIENCE!: her immediate switch to Michael's service was notably odd, though. Vapula didn't seem to mind, which was odder. Still, there's nothing about this angel's current activities that's particularly out of the ordinary. Gladys' work with War seems evenly divided between keeping the peace (something she's particularly good at) between various factions of the Host, and seeking out, exposing and excising the worst of Andrealphus' demons. She's very good at that, too: it almost seems like she can recognize them on sight (which is very confusing, considering that they have no idea who the Hell she is). Gladys seems to take especial pleasure in doing the latter: her hatred of the Prince of Lust is frighteningly personal, for reasons that she won’t discuss. Odd behavior, however, is not uncommon among Vapula's Refugees (especially the screaming nightmares, which seem common from the top down). All in all, Gladys isn't really that unusual. No, the thing that's nerve-wracking about Gladys isn't what she is, but what she was. There's no possible way that she could ever have served Technology: despite her Attunements, Gladys has absolutely no scientific or technical skills at all. What she is good at is inspiring passions... including the physical ones. Unless she deliberately makes an effort, every one of her actions, gestures and mannerisms evokes a powerful sensuality that can make an Elohite flee in prudent haste. If the Host had to make a guess at her origins, they'd pick Lust in a second… except that somebody would have remembered her, surely. Demons of her level of power and expertise simply don't disappear without a trace. It's certain, by the way, that Gladys wasn't her demonic name. Her interactions these days with her (presumed) former fellow-Servitors are quite complex. She likes to kill them, although at times she'll be inexplicably weeping as she destroys one. Oddly, though, her ability to spot Servitors of Lust is not matched by a similar prowess in sniffing out their Tethers. The Prince of Lust is not amused by this, but for some reason he finds himself reluctant to seek Gladys out and destroy her himself. He did try, once, but their meeting apparently unnerved him somehow. It's hard to say for sure, seeing as every one of his Servitors that accompanied him on the assault didn’t survive the experience. In fact, Andrealphus has become somewhat obsessed with Gladys of late: he's rumored to have an extensive file on her activities and actions. It's even said that he even gets irritable whenever he gets reports that Gladys is romantically seeing yet another angel (her list of romantic partners is very large, and supposedly even includes an Archangel or two). No doubt that look of worry is due to his fear that she'll be soul-killed before he can seduce her. Or maybe it's something else. While Gladys' vessels tend to be only moderately attractive, her celestial form is overpoweringly gorgeous - and hauntingly familiar to anyone who remembers the days before the Fall. Andrealphus has noticed this, himself, and it’s said that he's spent quite some time (in deepest privacy) looking at her picture, and wondering why the Hell she looks half like someone else he can't quite make out... ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:45:16 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... The header says it all. What's the cleverest use of a Band or Superior attunement that you've seen yet? It has to be something that someone actually got away with using, mind. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:53:57 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... From: "Douglas Muir" > > The header says it all. What's the cleverest use of a Band or Superior > attunement that you've seen yet? > > It has to be something that someone actually got away with using, mind. My Malakite of the Sword used his Scabbard attunement to keep a nuclear device from falling into a demon's clutches... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:59:01 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... > My Malakite of the Sword used his Scabbard attunement to keep a nuclear > device from falling into a demon's clutches... What kind of nuclear device are we talking about here? Not to nit-pick, but the attunement says: "Weapons stored with this attunement must be ones that the angel can personally wield -- it can't be used to hide field artillery. A M-60 is about the practical limit." I should think most nuclear devices go *beyond* field artillery. Now, if we're talking a suitcase nuke or some sort of suicide bomb meant to the "wielded" by a person, I can maybe see it (I'd probably even allow it as a GM), but it certainly sounds like a borderline case to me. ;) -Loki P.S. Of course, when this first came up the first thing I thought was: "What? The demon was after a nuclear sword or something?" All sorts of Lukasfilm-inspired images went through my head. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:13:47 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" > > My Malakite of the Sword used his Scabbard attunement to keep a nuclear > > device from falling into a demon's clutches... > > What kind of nuclear device are we talking about here? Not to nit-pick, but > the attunement says: It was a Vaputech bomb a wee bit larger than a football. Had enough bang in it to destroy the entire city of Jerusalem, if we'd let it go off, though. > P.S. Of course, when this first came up the first thing I thought was: > "What? The demon was after a nuclear sword or something?" All sorts of > Lukasfilm-inspired images went through my head. ;) No, the demon was trying to prevent Christianity from coming into existence by traveling in time to blow up Mary just before she gave birth. It was our Christmas game... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:11:46 -0600 From: "Michael" Subject: Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... > > The header says it all. What's the cleverest use of a Band or Superior > attunement that you've seen yet? > > It has to be something that someone actually got away with using, mind. > I'd have to say that the writeup of my renegade Balseraph of Fate who became so insane that he honestly thought he was a Malakite of Destiny worked pretty well. Fooled everybody, and it's amazing how Divine Logic works on the surface like a Balseraph resonance, and how Fated Future can be mistaken for Divine Destiny... (Writeup to follow soon) ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:55:59 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine > >There're different levels of Essence Control? > >Yes... > > >Songs versus Boosting Skill Rolls versus Going Celestial versus ??? > >No, the levels indicate the units of Essence you contain and have >control over. E.g., Soldiers have about 6, celestials have about 9, >etc. oh. So, in theory, your Essence Pool in infinite, it's the amount of essence that you can "control" which is the issue (in GIN). > >>Aside from that, Essence and Rites work as normal. > > > >Cool. > > > >>Songs _were_ doubled in cost, since Rites used to be _slots_ of extra > >>Fatigue that could be filled (letting a celestial have over 20 points > >>of Essence!), instead of methods to replenish existing Essence. (Extra > >>Fatigue, basically.) > > > >But overy 20 pts of Essence /would be/ appropriate if Song costs are > >doubled, in order to maintain a similar Song cost : Essence Pool ratio. > >It went the other way around, though -- since celestials were slinging >around more stuff... But thankfully, it was fixed. Though it had some >nice special effects for Impudites, the rest was a "that way lies madness" >hack. ha ha ha . . . but madness can bring such an excellent POV to light. > >So, when you say Songs now cost Essence pretty much normally, are you > >saying: > >that Songs coss about the same at in In Nomine, or > >Yes. Okay. Gotcha. > >that the Song cost : Essence Pool ratio has stayed about the same? > >Yes. Excellent . . . so my Song of Form should still only cost 1 point of Essence, and my the size of my Fatigue/Essence Pool will relfect that fact. >The Essence pool _was_ doubled, but then we were allowed to make Essence >Essence, instead of Extra Fatigue Per Se, which means that the average >celestial (with HT 14) has 9 measures of Essence to play with. > >(Frankly, if you know IN and want to stick to that, you just give out >the basic numbers and pitch the 2/3rds HT suggestion. We only stuck that >in so that Soldiers wouldn't go wonked to heck and gone.) ??? 2/3 HT? OH! (2/3)14=9 (rounding up) gotcha. :) Perhaps I'll just have Soldiers get their full HT as Essence. Then again (2/3)10 does equal 7 (rounding up), which is a bit more . . . especiall with Soldier not necessarily having a mere 10 HT. > >>Note that some Songs have a flaming feather near them -- this is >artistic, > >>not denoting a "dangerous" Song as in Liber Canticorum. > > > >Okay. Were songs from Liber Canticorum included in GIN? > >Affinity and Transferral were, as was Enchantment. I don't recall >any others seeming sufficiently important as to require shoehorning >them in. Makes sense. Ooooh . . . What about Discord? > >> >Should I just wait to get my copy of the book? (which has already been > >> >purchased, I just get to wait, oh, another week to a week in a half) > >> >Or, can you answer this? > >> > >>Well, if you don't mind the typos from the baby... O:> > > > >Hey, I love babies! Well, other people's babies at least. > >I'd love to have an answer, no matter how bad the typos. :) > >Heh. I'll do my best, then... - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:09:10 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine >At 5:02 -0500 12/16/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >Interesting. I guess that means that certain routes to power are more > >expensive (pt-wise) than others in GURPS. Doesn't sound all that >balanced > >to me, but hey, we're only human. > >That's been the case pretty much since the first psi powers were introduced >in GURPS Humanx (vs. magic from G:Fantasy for similar abilities). It got >lots worse when Supers came out. (It wasn't even internally consistent >with point balance. And personally I don't believe Supers games *can* >be balanced using a mechanical point-based system without introducing a >lot of GM fudging.) I've never really had any problems/complaints from my Supers players. I dunno. [body-hopping] >80 points. Kromm wanted something around 120 as I recall. Eventually >the fix was to make Celestial Form be a prereq for Body-Hopping. Basically >Kromm didn't want the "bare" Body-Hopping ability to migrate into GURPS >proper at the 80-point cost. Euw. Okay, I can see that. What about the point cost for being able to switch vessels, let alone owning more than one vessel (I imagine the first one is free, and would negate the "Vesselless" disad, akin to the No Physical Body disad from G:PSI) > >>And if such powers were defined in In Nomine, those Superiors would > >>probably > >>include them that way. As it is, it's more of a GM-fiat thing in IN. > > > >I see it more as a "GURPS has it, so let's take advantage of it" thing. > >Some, yes. But mostly because GURPS has more of an attitude of "if it's >not on your character sheet, you don't have it", while IN is more of >"only the most critical stuff is listed to simplify character creation" >model. On the whole, the IN GM is encouraged to be looser about >characters than a GURPS GM is, since GURPS attempts to define game >mechanics for *everything*, and IN only for the most crucial stuff. >To some extent that's related to system age, and some to design decision. OTOH, I found In Nomine frustrating because there was no real game mechanic way given to support such things which are typical GURPS advantages and disadvantages (stubborn) without resorting to Discords, which for a celestial are a literal mark on their soul. Granted, celestials are supposedly "perfect" but such characteristics are part of any character's "personality". Looks like my GURPS midset caused me to feel limited by a system that was meant to be freeing. I dunno. My players have felt that their characters feel kinda, well, bland. They're regular players of White Wolf and enjoy the Merits and Flaws system provided there. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:09:18 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine >At 5:02 -0500 12/16/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >Interesting. I guess that means that certain routes to power are more > >expensive (pt-wise) than others in GURPS. Doesn't sound all that >balanced > >to me, but hey, we're only human. > >That's been the case pretty much since the first psi powers were introduced >in GURPS Humanx (vs. magic from G:Fantasy for similar abilities). It got >lots worse when Supers came out. (It wasn't even internally consistent >with point balance. And personally I don't believe Supers games *can* >be balanced using a mechanical point-based system without introducing a >lot of GM fudging.) I've never really had any problems/complaints from my Supers players. I dunno. [body-hopping] >80 points. Kromm wanted something around 120 as I recall. Eventually >the fix was to make Celestial Form be a prereq for Body-Hopping. Basically >Kromm didn't want the "bare" Body-Hopping ability to migrate into GURPS >proper at the 80-point cost. Euw. Okay, I can see that. What about the point cost for being able to switch vessels, let alone owning more than one vessel (I imagine the first one is free, and would negate the "Vesselless" disad, akin to the No Physical Body disad from G:PSI) > >>And if such powers were defined in In Nomine, those Superiors would > >>probably > >>include them that way. As it is, it's more of a GM-fiat thing in IN. > > > >I see it more as a "GURPS has it, so let's take advantage of it" thing. > >Some, yes. But mostly because GURPS has more of an attitude of "if it's >not on your character sheet, you don't have it", while IN is more of >"only the most critical stuff is listed to simplify character creation" >model. On the whole, the IN GM is encouraged to be looser about >characters than a GURPS GM is, since GURPS attempts to define game >mechanics for *everything*, and IN only for the most crucial stuff. >To some extent that's related to system age, and some to design decision. OTOH, I found In Nomine frustrating because there was no real game mechanic way given to support such things which are typical GURPS advantages and disadvantages (stubborn) without resorting to Discords, which for a celestial are a literal mark on their soul. Granted, celestials are supposedly "perfect" but such characteristics are part of any character's "personality". Looks like my GURPS midset caused me to feel limited by a system that was meant to be freeing. I dunno. My players have felt that their characters feel kinda, well, bland. They're regular players of White Wolf and enjoy the Merits and Flaws system provided there. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:20:01 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine > >Rapier Wit? ha ha ha . . . > >One of the problems during the conversion is GURPS' lack of mental >powers that *aren't* based directly on psionics. That led to some, ah, >creative re-interpretation of other powers at times. Rapier Wit is one of >the few mind-influencing abilities that *isn't* psionic in nature, or >a regular skill anyone can learn. (Powers based off skills are a *real* >pain -- I had a few of those mixed in, in the first draft.) - -sigh- yet again evidence that we all have inborn talents for things that we have trouble measuring. Charisma for instance. > >>@BODY:Cherubim of David: Telekinesis (p. B172) at Power 16 >(maximum > >>500 lbs.) [64], No Roll Required, +66%, only affects mineral objects, >-30%, > >>can only draw things toward user, -30%, range is limited to Corporeal >Power > >>yards, -10%. Total cost: 62 points. > > > >Looks fine to me. > >But look at all the "author-fiat" modifiers I snuck in there to try to >get the power cost to something I considered reasonable. And it was still >higher than I wanted most attunements to be, or thought was reasonable for >that power. (Admittedly one of the more innately powerful ones... note >that the original IN power has *no* weight limit -- try to find a finite >GURPS cost for that!) Well . . . G:Supers has Invulnearable costs, and that shrugs off an *infinite* amount of damage, depending on the source of damage. Invulernable to all Kinetic Damage is cheaper than DR 101, but won't protect against (argueably since the word Kinetic is used, it should read (IMHO): to All Damage from Liquid or Solid Objects) fire, lasers, generic energy, magic, and psi. Granted, I'm sure the point cost there is fudged as well. > >(As is swapping > >>ST for hit points and HT for fatigue.) > > > >Hmmm . . . that might not be a bad idea for GIN when I run this QTR. I > >dunno, depends on how vessels work and whatnot. :) > >I'd recommend it. The vessel mechanics don't really interact with that >much, but ST-based hit points feel a lot closer to how IN does Body Hits >than the GURPS HT-based ones -- HT doesn't have a clear analog in IN, >really. Yeah, I probably will do that. Though Essence/Fatigue Pool /size/ will probably still be based off of HT. > > That and having Children of the Grigori following in the >footsteps > >of their INS/MV counter parts: the Psis (who are the decendents of Adam >and > >Eve from the Eden Experiment). I plan to use the Psionics rules in place >of > >the INS/MV Psi rules, since the INS/MV rules are so limited in scope. > >Well, GURPS IN introduces the IN mechanics for Children, and they're >not psis, really, at least in the GURPS mechnics sense. (What people >*think* of them in-game is something else, sometimes....) I look forward to reading it. >[And let's please not restart the "Why are Children in GURPS IN and not >in mainline IN?" flame/whinewar again.] Again, I look forward to reading it. And the reason that I have been doing exactly what I want with the Children of the Grigori is precisely because they ARE NOT presented with stats-attached in the main line. Hell, I've thrown in stuff that makes them almost more powerful than celestials! (my players don't know yet, heh, heh . . . well, except the one playing the CotG.) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:30:26 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS and Grigori... what the heck? > >> Oiy, this should be a FAQ... > > > >Yes, I checked the FAQ and couldn't find it there, either. ;) > >Clearly I need to catch Karakash... Speaking of John, how's he doing? > >And assuming they *are* canonical, since the "cat is out of the bag" as >it > >were, with regard to GURPS: In Nomine, perhaps the In Nomine stats and >info > >should appear on a web page somewhere, or a Pyramid article? oooh That'sa _good_ idea. Well, at least for those of us who Pyramid Subscribers . . . (If you're not, it's a great deal if you have a web-brouser) >This is something Alain or SJ would decide, not I. (I suggest the >general sjgames@io.com account.) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:53:44 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Applied Psychology Emote is the skill you want. Which is Perception based, I think. >From: "Janet Anderson" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Applied Psychology >Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:44:15 > >> If you want a character to be skilled in the rules of interpersonal >>relations, Psychology isn't your best bet. Go for Savoir-faire. >> >I am under the impression that Savoir-Faire lets people know how to behave >in social situations, e.g. what fork to use, what to call the Ambassador's >wife, what to wear and when. > >This is a useful skill, but not necessarily for a bouncer/bartender. > > >Janet Anderson > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:57:23 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... >From: "Michael" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:11:46 -0600 > > > > > > > The header says it all. What's the cleverest use of a Band or Superior > > attunement that you've seen yet? > > > > It has to be something that someone actually got away with using, mind. > > > I had a Mercurian of Destiny who used her choir attunement to work out how to best emotionally blackmail demons/hellsworn (she could work out who they really cared about and then pretend to threaten them). We were all surprised at how effective it could be. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:30:59 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement - --On Wednesday, December 20, 2000 16:24 -0600 Charles Glasgow wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Whistling in the Dark" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 4:03 PM > Subject: Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement > > >> At 3:46 PM -0600 12/20/00, Charles Glasgow wrote: >> > >> > > Bah. A Balseraph that cannot convince itself that what it's >> > > doing is not violence should be denied the nifty card and >> >> discount. >> > >> > It's not the *Balseraph* that needs convincing -- it's the >> > Symphony. >> >> Ah, but the imposition of one's personal Symphony upon the Symphony >> at large -- in a Balseraph's case, convincing it that the Balseraph >> is right and the truth wrong -- is the very *heart* of a Demonic >> resonance. > > Actually, I'd thought it was the imposition of one's own personal > Symphony over *another being's perception* of the Symphony. With > the possible exception of the First Balseraph, Balseraphs have had > a notorious lack of success in (as Beth pointed out) trying to > convince gravity that they could fly without wings, or trying to > convince fire that they were fireproof, or etc, etc. There is a > *reason* that the Balseraph resonance is usable only for lying to > *people*, and only one (or small groups) of them at once. Again, > save possibly for Lucifer, a Balseraph should not be able to lie to > the Symphony as a whole. > > Which is precisely what you'd have to do to to win in this > situation. It's not the Seraph who decides what is and is not > violent (this is so as to remove the munchkining effect of taking > an Outcast Seraph of Flowers with a Discord of Massive Delusion/6, > "Nothing I do is *really* violent", and then trying to convince the > DM that that allows him to be immune to his own attunement),-- it's > the nature of the attunement itself, which means the Symphony, > which means God, which means good luck lyin' to *this* one. > > Balseraphs may be cool, but they're not *this* powerful. > Agreed. You can only push the Balseraph ressonance so far towards munchkinism before the Symphony blinks and demands to know what the hell you think you're doing. (I love the way Beth put it, by the way.) Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Maybe those sharp rocks will break his fall." *SMACKrollrollrollBAM* "Nope.") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:38:52 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> I just had the nastiest idea... - --On Wednesday, December 20, 2000 15:28 -0500 Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Maurice Lane wrote: > >> Impudites seem to be >> more likely than most to engender personal offspring > > Oh? I know of Rex, or whatever his name is, the Demon of Cool, > and the "son" of Nybbas, but what other signs of prolificity > do they have? > Coming this fall... Prolificity. On the WB. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Here's the story / of a lovely lady...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:42:21 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> I just had the nastiest idea... - --On Wednesday, December 20, 2000 14:31 -0600 Prodigal wrote: > From: "Earl Wajenberg" > > >> Maurice Lane wrote: >> >> > Impudites seem to be >> > more likely than most to engender personal offspring >> >> Oh? I know of Rex, or whatever his name is, the Demon of Cool, >> and the "son" of Nybbas, but what other signs of prolificity >> do they have? > > Their ability to Charm the pants of pretty much anybody they set > their sights on, given enough time. ;;;) > I thought this was just part of the Female character template? Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation Mind Control: 40 points. Single Command ("Adore me!") -1 Usable at Range + 1/2 Always on + 1/4 Uses no END + 1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:45:42 -0500 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> Seraph of Flowers attunement Charles Glasgow wrote: > > "Whistling in the Dark" > > At 3:46 PM -0600 12/20/00, Charles Glasgow wrote: > > > > > > > Bah. A Balseraph that cannot convince itself that what it's doing is > > >> not violence should be denied the nifty card and discount. > > > > > >It's not the *Balseraph* that needs convincing -- it's the Symphony. > > > > Ah, but the imposition of one's personal Symphony upon the Symphony > > at large -- in a Balseraph's case, convincing it that the Balseraph > > is right and the truth wrong -- is the very *heart* of a Demonic > > resonance. > > Actually, I'd thought it was the imposition of one's own personal > Symphony over *another being's perception* of the Symphony. With the > possible exception of the First Balseraph, Balseraphs have had a > notorious lack of success in (as Beth pointed out) trying to convince > gravity that they could fly without wings, or trying to convince fire > that they were fireproof, or etc, etc. There is a *reason* that the > Balseraph resonance is usable only for lying to *people*, and only one > (or small groups) of them at once. Again, save possibly for Lucifer, > a Balseraph should not be able to lie to the Symphony as a whole. Um. A Seraph of Flowers' attunement is a psychological effect: everyone in its vicinity must make a Will roll (at a penalty) to engage in an act of violence. A Balseraph's power is also a psychological effect; if it can convince itself that what it's doing is not violent then I see no reason why it can't evade the attunement. Manipulating its own, private Symphony is basic to the Balseraph shtick. Sure, it creates a hole in the Seraph of Flowers protection, but then so do thrown rocks and sticks. It's not all-powerful. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:54:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cleverest use of attunements... At 1:45 AM -0400 12/21/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >The header says it all. What's the cleverest use of a Band or Superior >attunement that you've seen yet? > >It has to be something that someone actually got away with using, mind. How about a clever use of dissonance conditions? Balseraph tells Cherub of War (engaged in combat), "YOU CAN'T WIN!" The Cherub miserably failes his Will roll to resist believing this. The Cherub shouts back, "So what?!" Servitors of War. Gotta love 'em. To quote Klingons, "Today is a good day to die." - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:09:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 7:55 AM -0500 12/21/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >> >There're different levels of Essence Control? >> >>Yes... >> >> >Songs versus Boosting Skill Rolls versus Going Celestial versus ??? >> >>No, the levels indicate the units of Essence you contain and have >>control over. E.g., Soldiers have about 6, celestials have about 9, >>etc. > >oh. So, in theory, your Essence Pool in infinite, it's the amount of >essence that you can "control" which is the issue (in GIN). The Essence Pool probably is "infinite" -- but is handwaved a great deal and doesn't really go into that. >>It went the other way around, though -- since celestials were slinging >>around more stuff... But thankfully, it was fixed. Though it had some >>nice special effects for Impudites, the rest was a "that way lies madness" >>hack. > >ha ha ha . . . but madness can bring such an excellent POV to light. Maybe, but when it's a madness only a gearhead could love... >> >that the Song cost : Essence Pool ratio has stayed about the same? >>Yes. >Excellent . . . so my Song of Form should still only cost 1 point of >Essence, and my the size of my Fatigue/Essence Pool will relfect that fact. Yup. (I think Song of Form may be one of the ones which got "normalized" somewhat, so that it's got a base duration, and is maintainable for extra Essence.) >>(Frankly, if you know IN and want to stick to that, you just give out >>the basic numbers and pitch the 2/3rds HT suggestion. We only stuck that >>in so that Soldiers wouldn't go wonked to heck and gone.) > >??? 2/3 HT? OH! (2/3)14=9 (rounding up) gotcha. :) Yup! You see, Soldiers get one level of Power Investiture (what Forces _mostly_ turned into), so one can't compute "total Forces" with humans anymore. >Perhaps I'll just have Soldiers get their full HT as Essence. Then again >(2/3)10 does equal 7 (rounding up), which is a bit more . . . especiall with >Soldier not necessarily having a mere 10 HT. Yup! >Ooooh . . . What about Discord? Most of the main-book Discords were translated in (if they were unique to IN); the others are covered by regular disads... paired with the Discord disad. (Basically the Discord disad is linked to a regular disad and gives it all the Discord special effects. A regular disad is treated as disads normally are in GURPS and won't have any special tendency to show up in celestial form.) At 8:09 AM -0500 12/21/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: [...] >>with point balance. And personally I don't believe Supers games *can* >>be balanced using a mechanical point-based system without introducing a >>lot of GM fudging.) > >I've never really had any problems/complaints from my Supers players. >I dunno. It's probably because the GM is good... But that's edging away into another rant entirely, which should go in email if at all. O:> >[body-hopping] >>80 points. Kromm wanted something around 120 as I recall. Eventually >>the fix was to make Celestial Form be a prereq for Body-Hopping. Basically >>Kromm didn't want the "bare" Body-Hopping ability to migrate into GURPS >>proper at the 80-point cost. > >Euw. Okay, I can see that. What about the point cost for being able to >switch vessels, let alone owning more than one vessel (I imagine the first >one is free, and would negate the "Vesselless" disad, akin to the No >Physical Body disad from G:PSI) Being able to switch vessels is a freebie. Vessels cost a base of 30 points (35 if they have some kind of micro-Role in the form of ID, or 40 if they are Zeroed), and all ads and physical disads apply to that, but cannot reduce the point cost below 5. It's never a disad to have a vessel. (Since non- human vessels still have celestial stats, it's _more_ expensive to have, say, a cat vessel. C'est la vie.) Yes, if you have two attractive vessels, you have to pay for each. We were thinking about percentages and stuff, but it all depended on how many vessels people had, and they could lose them in play, and it was just sick. So we went with simplicity. You pay for the goodies on each vessel separately, even if they're the same goodies. (Unless you get the goodies from an attunement; I think Malakim of Lightning get Double-Jointed for the Mechanic bonus.) >OTOH, I found In Nomine frustrating because there was no real game mechanic >way given to support such things which are typical GURPS advantages and >disadvantages (stubborn) without resorting to Discords, which for a >celestial are a literal mark on their soul. Granted, celestials are >supposedly "perfect" but such characteristics are part of any character's >"personality". I had a bit of a time getting over that myself. You have to do a lot more "verbal" defining of character in IN. Interestingly, when we did up a set of characters for a demo game, I found myself giving them very few actual disads. Lots of quirks, though... At 8:20 AM -0500 12/21/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Well . . . G:Supers has Invulnearable costs, and that shrugs off an >*infinite* amount of damage, depending on the source of damage. > >Invulernable to all Kinetic Damage is cheaper than DR 101, but won't protect >against (argueably since the word Kinetic is used, it should read (IMHO): to >All Damage from Liquid or Solid Objects) fire, lasers, generic energy, >magic, and psi. > >Granted, I'm sure the point cost there is fudged as well. Something I have noted is that the immunity to fire is over-priced in non-Supers games. Fire is _not_ a common threat in games that don't have Flamin' Jane clones running around loose! And so Ofanim of Fire only pay 75 points for that instead of 150... - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1984 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.