From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 27 00:18:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA18934 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:18:45 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA21769 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:18:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:18:51 -0600 Message-Id: <200012270618.AAA21769@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1992 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 27 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1992 In this digest: Re: IN> The Grigori Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine IN> [Choir] The Abelim Cel. Song of Machines (was Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine) IN> Grigori Servitor (Wheeee!!!) Re: IN> [Choir] The Abelim Re: IN> The Grigori Re: IN> Grigori Servitor (Wheeee!!!) Re: IN> Clever Game Stunts (Re: GURPS In-Nomine) Re: Cel. Song of Machines (was Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine) Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:42:44 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> The Grigori Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 11:25:46 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Grigori On 12/26/00 2:18 AM, "Douglas Muir" alleged: >>-- The Dissonance conditions are a bit too harsh, I >>think. If the Grigs have to intervene every time >>they hear disturbance -- and they hear disturbance >>much much more than ordinary angels -- they're going >>to be repeatedly drawn into conflict with Hell. >>Eventually, given the time scales involved, they'll >>all be dead. >Well, there are (it's thought) less than fifty left >alive. If we postulate bunches and bunches of them to >begin with, this doesn't seem inconsistent.- -- (mad Balseraph rant) No, no, no. Don't any of you _understand_? They keep dying, yes: but it JUST DOESN'T MATTER. Their breeder Archangels just keep making more. Thousands of them. Millions of them, even. Ever wonder why you don't see more Remnants? They've been ... recycled ... for their Forces. And, and, and, do you think that those so-called "Children of the Grigori" are REALLY human? No, no, no: they're just Grigori that have been carefully - oh so carefully - stripped of Forces so that noone can detect them as celestials. That's what happens when a Grigori is pushed back to reliever level, you know. But not all the Grigori are secretly infiltrating earth: oh, no. Many wait under under the ground, you know. In abandoned mineshafts and sewers, carefully put in stasis for the Last Days, when they'll vomit out of the ground and attack both Heaven _and_ Hell. I can hear them whispering. I TELL YOU THAT I CAN HEAR THEM WHISPERING, DA*N YOU!!!!! Why won't anyone listen to me?!!!!!! (/mad Balseraph rant) ;) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:11:31 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 22:35 -0500 12/24/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: [Discord and reaction penalties for angels] >>It's in there. I'll note here that the negative reaction penalties for >>angels aren't really totally costed into the disad, though, since angels >>with Discord normally should also take the Inquisition as an Enemy, and >>that tends to dominate the cost of the reaction penalty component. > >Wow, that's sweeeeet. I'll probably first have the disad points sunk into a >Secret(Discordant) and then convert that into Enemy(Inquistion) when the >Discord is reported. That sounds perfectly reasonable. >>For GURPS IN, celestials should start with both at 14, probably, like all >>their other stats. That will raise the point cost of celestial form >>appropriately, but won't change character generation, if you use the >>"canon" character point model, rather than the usual "everyone gets X >>points" >>model. > >Hrm. Makes for weird "character balance" won't it? Which is also true in IN proper -- the game *setting* nearly demands that character balance be thrown out. Well, at least the way Derek implemented things. Frankly, the notion that all PCs should be "equal" in some sense is pretty silly, when you think about it -- if a character is designed (using either a general system like GURPS, or even a class/template-based one like IN or D&D) in a way that doesn't fit into the GM's campaign, the character isn't going to be "equal", except in some abstract sense. This is most easily visible in point-based systems like GURPS or Hero, where you can trivially design a character who is "balanced" with typical PCs, but is essentially totally useless in a campaign. But it can happen with genre-specific template/class systems. Think about a D&D ranger in a campaign that's entirely dungeon-crawls, or a D&D thief in a campaign that's mostly wilderness adventures. Character balance is a myth. Well, not entirely -- it exists to some extent *if* you assume that players will min-max their characters as much as possible, and will tailor them to the GM's expected campaign. Or if they don't, they expect to play secondary roles in the game, and won't find that annoying. >Yeah, enemies having multiple vessels really annoy the players. But, then, >I always say that they can get one if they want one and they say, no way, >vessels are too expensive. Such is life. :l I don't think I'd create a combat-oriented character without at least a couple vessels. While it's true that high-level vessels are expensive in IN, low-level ones aren't too bad, especially if they lack Roles. (And if the vessel goes around killing people all the time, a Role can be more of a hindrance than a help.) In GURPS:IN, it might be harder to have multiple vessels, but I tried fairly hard to make the ratio of vessel cost to "customization points" (100, usually) be roughly the same as the typical IN vessel to the IN total customization points. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:21:35 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 10:46 -0500 12/25/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 10:24 PM -0500 12/24/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >>>Two celestials, A and B. >>>A has the Bad Temper disad. >>>B has the Bad Temper disad and a level of the Discord disad linked to it. >> >> >> >>Coolness. I'd say that there should be a min -1 reaction modifier, at least >>for angels. > >Oh, quite! You see, the Discord disad is, IIRC, -5 points/level. So, with >a -1 reaction for every -5 points of DIscord... It's actually a cumulative -3 reaction per level of Discord. So 3 levels of Discord gives a -9(!) reaction modifier for angels. As I recall, this is a more or less direct translation of the equivalent rule in IN proper. >>>I suspect that if INS/MV had been >>>'ported to GURPS in the first place, certain aspects of it would be a lot >>>more similiar to the original than they are now. (No Kyrios/Shedim, >>>multiple vessels, or celestial forms, at a guess.) >> >>Well, yeah. And the choirs/band could have optional character packages. >>(though that'd be a mess, probably) > >My mind flinches. In truth, I'm not sure there would have _been_ Choirs >and Bands, considering what a pain it was to convert them. Or if there >were, they would have been given more traditional GURPS powers from >Supers, Psi, and Compendium. Choirs and Bands would probably have been templates, and would probably have been more point-balanced. As it is, Kyriotates are by far and away the most expensive Choir/Band, and this is consistent with my experience with IN -- Kyrios are usually a *lot* more effective in the game than most other Choirs/Bands. This was one of the things that drove me to change the normal GURPS rule "all PCs start with the same point value": with Kyrios in the game, that would either have made them an NPC-only Choir, or all the other characters would have gotten *way* too many customization points, and the result wouldn't have acted like normal canon IN at all. We were trying to reproduce the IN feel as much as possible (at SJ's direction), and this essentially ran contrary to normal GURPS character design procedures. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:31:32 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> [Choir] The Abelim Thanks to Cassandra for this one. Yes, I know that the plural probably isn't proper Hebrew, but then, neither is the name itself (which should be rendered "lba" in the singular). Please note that this Choir is intended strictly for NPC use; roleplaying an Abel properly for any length of time would be quite difficult and likely depressing as hell. Abelim The Mourners An angel passed us, dressed in dark robes, the feathers from its wings floating to the ground as it walked. I waited until I had faded, then looked up at the Malakite. "Was that...?" She nodded. "An Abel." A frown crossed her face. "Only a few of us remember when they came about. There are only a few of them, but they remind us well enough." "Of what?" I inquired. A new soul in Heaven knows so little. "The Fall," she replied quietly. "Oh, we Malakim are reminders enough of the force of God's wrath. When you sin against God, the blackwings come to punish you. But the Abelim..." She shuddered. "The Abelim are here to remind us that even when you know something's coming, there's sometimes no way to stop it." The Abelim are seldom seen, and speak even more rarely. The effect of an experiment gone wrong, they were given the chance to see the Fall as it happened - and were powerless to do anything about it. Originally a vast array of different Choirs, the Abelim were reforged into their current forms as the sorrow of God Himself was inflicted upon them. It is to their credit that not one has Fallen since. Resonance The Abelim are holding-places for grief, purgatories for lamentation; they can detect sorrow in others with a glance, and relieve it with a touch. Some call the Abelim "Solace-givers", for while they do not remove pain and suffering, their resonance allows them to dull its effects for a while. The Abelim often work with Blandine's Menunim, though they themselves are not bound as a group to any single Archangel. The Seraphim Council as a whole recognizes the plight of the Mourners even as they do not understand it, and any Abel who wishes to leave an Archangel's service is often given permission without even a second thought. Abelim rarely visit Earth without an angelic (or Saintly) companion. The amount of sorrow in Heaven is nothing in comparison to the grief on Earth... and no Abelim has ever expressed a desire to go to Hell. Of the other Choirs, the Menunim understand the Abelim the best; the Ofanim have the least tolerance for them. Dissonance Abelim are as sorrowful as they are because they hold inside them the grief of God at losing fully a third of his children during the Fall. This does not deprive them of their free will - but if any Abel acts without regard for the suffering of others, or forgets that he is the embodiment of the suffering of God, the betrayal of his nature earns him a note of dissonance. The only way this dissonance may be removed is through work at a Tether. Manner and Appearance Abelim appear in dark robes, silver wings protruding from the back. These wings are constantly shedding feathers, which fade a few moments after they fall to the ground; the wings themselves are always perfect in form, despite the feathers they lose. When their hoods are pulled back, their faces are humanoid, with muted features; their eyes are grey, and tear-tracks stain their cheeks. On the corporeal plane, they prefer vessels that blend in; their eyes are downcast, their demeanor withdrawn. Game Mechanics The Mourners have a two-part resonance. The first, which allows them to seek out despair in their vicinity, requires a Perception roll; success finds the single person with the most grief or sorrow within a radius of (total Forces times the Check Digit) feet. It does not give them insight into the nature of the grief, only its existence. Once this is done, the Abel may attempt to dull the pain of the grief that that person experiences, by touching the person and making another successful Perception roll. If successful, that person becomes unaffected by her grief for (Check Digit) hours (the actual effects are left up to the GM). (When reference is made to the resonance roll, it generally refers to the second part, unless otherwise noted.) An Abel may also attempt to use the second part of the resonance on - -anyone-, at a penalty of -3 to the roll. By using their resonance on an angel in Trauma, they may lessen the duration of the Trauma by a number of days equal to half of the check digit of the successful roll, rounded up. History The Abelim have a troubled history. They first appeared during the Fall, when they were apparently formed out of existing angels of different Choirs, much like the Malakim. There are records of them fighting valiantly alongside Heaven's forces to destroy and drive out the new demons - - but after the Fall, they seemed to disappear into the woodwork. Many thought that all of them had been killed in the battle, although Seraph inquiries into the matter turned up the frustrating "ineffable" answer. Recently, though, the Abelim have begun reappearing en masse. There seem to be about one hundred of them in total, and while none of them are talking (much), they don't seem to be the fonts of knowledge and power that twenty-thousand-year-old angels should be. In fact, the Abelim are part of an experiment. Nobody who's talking knows how, but somehow, someone managed to send a squadron of a hundred angels of all different Choirs back through time to the Fall. It was never meant to be an interactive session, but rather an exercise in entropic manipulation; the experience was to be immersive, and instead the angels found themselves actually existing alongside the contemporaries of the Fall, conversing with them, trying to change their minds. What they found was that they couldn't avert the Fall - and as it grew nearer, they became more and more despondent. When Lucifer and his crew fell from grace, the group was powerless to stop it; their combined grief over this event was enough to attract the attention of God Himself. He reformed the angels, gave them a common Choir and a task, and the Abelim set out dulling the pain of the Fall. At which point, the time effect snapped them back to the present. In the absence of new direct orders from God, the Abelim have set about completing their previous duty - to relieve pain and suffering. The Fall being a distant memory in the minds of many angels and only a fable in the minds of most, the Abelim have had to work on lesser sorrow. Most often, their touch soothes angels in Trauma, although they can also be found consoling those whose friends have Fallen or been killed. Archangel Attunements Enough Abelim exist that some of the Archangels have become comfortable granting them standard attunements. Blandine (restricted): Abelim of Dreams may use their resonance on dreamscapes; on a successful use, they can begin a dream's motion from nightmare to pleasant dream, or stop a dream from moving toward Beleth's nightmare realm. David (restricted): David's Mourners can apply their resonance to groups of up to a number of people equal to the angel's total Forces, if they are all suffering from the same grief. These Abelim are often found at wakes and other like events. Eli (restricted): Mourners serving Creation may, instead of reducing grief, amplify it, inducing a feedback state in the target. The person becomes engulfed in grief, effectively stunned for (check digit) minutes - but after that, the pain they feel is permanently at the level to which the angel's normal resonance would have reduced it. Jean (restricted): By using his resonance on a machine, an Abel in Jean's service may rectify any problems with that machine (computer viruses, dusty CD player lenses, no gas in the fuel tank) for the normal duration of the resonance. Yves (restricted): Abelim of Yves can, with the first part of their resonance, tell not only who has the most grief of those around them, but what caused that grief. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:36:12 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Cel. Song of Machines (was Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine) At 12:01 -0500 12/25/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >A game which also included *my* favorite use of attunement/song/power. >Namely, the Celestial Song of... hm. Machines? Yep. > (In Maine without books, so >I'm flying by memory.) It makes a corporeal device a Celestial artifact, >temporarily. So, the Renegade Lilim slapped her hand on the Gigantic >Macguffin, Sang the Song... and the player smiled at me and said "Celestial >Artifacts have no weight on the Celestial Realm. I go Celestial and carry >the device to the roof." Actually, the character is primarily a thief (likely made with a lot of Valefor Forces, with the intent that she'd probably bind to him, but she chose to be Free -- it happens). Her main use of the Song is to steal large corporeal objects by essentially "teleporting" them out of their vault/building/etc. The Song is *way* more effective for that than the Swipe attunement, a lot cheaper, and lets you carry a lot more than the normal weight limit for merely grabbing something and going celestial (putting it into potentiality with your vessel). A *nasty* little Song; it has other abuses, which this character generally isn't interested in. (At least until there's some clear need for them....) >There are disadvantages for running games with the people who wrote them. Actually, I griped about that Song during the Songbook playtest, but it went in as written, more or less, I think. I don't think it even got a flaming feather, as some of the ones that I wrote did.... Besides, I'm just good at coming up with totally weird gimmicks sometimes. I don't have to write the game. You don't want to know some of my old D&D war stories, or GURPS Space ones. Maybe some players need a "Flaming Feather", too.... > Still, I was too impressed by the hurling of the Macguffin onto the >demons below to really disallow it. (Next time, I'll just *plan* for it.) Using it to drop the Macguffin was an inspiration of the moment, I hadn't thought of that application until I was looking around for something nasty for the Lilim to do to the Baalites (whom she was mightily ticked at, at the time). Just remember to put me up for the Brian award this year.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Grigori Servitor (Wheeee!!!) My, my, my: aren't _I_ pugnacious tonight? Many thanks to David E. for his writeup of the Grigori: it was just what I needed to finish this one up. Of course, considering what I _did_ with it, that might not be such a good thing... ;) Morgan (SAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Revisionist History Eggur Outcast Grigori of War Corporeal Forces: 3 Strength: 7 Agility: 8 Ethereal Forces: 3 Intelligence: 6 Precision: 9 Celestial Forces: 4 Will: 9 Perception: 10 Note that Eggur has boosted his Attributes to the maximum possible without taking an extra Force. Vessel: slight human male/4 Skills: Dodge/3, Enchantment/3, Fast-Talk/6, Fighting/3, Knowledge (History/6, History of the War/6, War's Rejects/6*), Lying/6, Move Silently/3, Ranged Weapon/3 (pistol), Running/3, Savoir-Faire/3, Small Weapon/1, Tactics/3. Eggur also has learned and forgotten more languages then he likes to contemplate. *"The War's Rejects" is Eggur's term for Outcasts, Renegades, Remnants and any other type of Celestial discarded by either side. He knows about a lot of them, as well as how to find them if he needs to. He rarely does: trusting another celestial (except for Grigori, and oddly, Tsayadim) isn't something this angel does on a whim. Songs: Artifacts (All/1), Concealment (Celestial/3), Form (Celestial/1), Healing (Corporeal/1), Light (Celestial/4), Shields (All/2), Silence (Celestial/6), Thunder/2 Role: "Edward Iannis" (shopkeeper/6, Status 1) Discord: Vulnerable (dissonance)/2 Attunements: Grigori of War, Proficiency (Fighting). Note that, as an Outcast, Eggur cannot use Michael's Rites, ascend to Heaven, or summon his Superior. He wasn't about to do the last two, anyway. Relics: A few reliquary/1s and /2s, and a pistol/3 corporeal artifact. Depending on how you look at it, Eggur is either the luckiest or the unluckiest Outcast in Creation. He remembers the days when he was a Servitor of Michael quite well. Unfortunately, he wasn't very good at it. In fact, he was a very bad Servitor of Michael, to the point where the Archangel of War was forced to Outcast him for a while. Eggur is absolutely sure that it was supposed to be only temporary: they were a lot looser about that sort of thing in the old days. However, Eggur was so inept that he found himself visiting Limbo fairly often. The third time it happened, he gritted his teeth and stuck it out until he had a worthwhile vessel. This took some time. If celestials could have heart attacks, Eggur would have gotten one when he emerged from Limbo to discover that the rest of his Choir - _the_ _entire_ _rest_ _of_ _his_ _Choir_ - had gotten themselves tossed out of Heaven while he was incommunicado. It was bloody insane. Yes, the rest of them had a problem or two with fraternization with mortals, but at least it was better than routinely slaughtering them, right? Actually, once Eggur started to calm down, it all made a certain amount of sense. The Malakim had never approved of the Grigori in the first place: they had rightfully seen the creation of the Watchers as a subtle rebuke. David's wholesale assault on the Grigori's descendants was typical of the breed: when in a political grudge match, go for your enemy's family, and claim that it's God's will. That entire Choir had something seriously, fundamentally wrong with them. Of course, none of this was as immediately important as the fact that Eggur was in serious trouble now. As a doubled and redoubled Outcast, he couldn't hope to get even marginal support from the Host, no matter that _he_ had no problems with keeping it in his tunic. Trying to find his Choir-mates was soon revealed as an exercise in futility: they went to ground too quickly. And, of course, Hell had made Grigori-hunting their favorite sport: clever of the God-damned blackwings to eliminate their helpless political opponents without ever getting their own hands any bloodier. Limbo looked good right about now. Screw that. He may not have been the best Servitor of War in Creation, but Eggur wasn't about to run away from _this_ fight. It would seem that Michael succeeded after all. Eggur has spent the last thirteen thousand years grimly becoming a proper Servitor of War (helped by the fact, of course, that acting contrary to his Word _hurts_ in his particular case). He's ended up in Limbo more times than he can count, has dragged himself off a thousand battlefields, and constantly fought to retain a sense of himself and his mission. In the process, he's picked up the odd ability or two, honing himself to be a weapon for a Heaven that's rejected him. He's also gotten past most of his initial bitterness, although he occasionally relapses (usually when it involves Malakim). Eggur has had to become as subtle as a viper in dealing with disturbance. The first lesson he had to learn was how to get humans to investigate demonic interference without being noticed. He's pretty good at that, not that he has a choice. The second lesson he had to learn was how to attack evil directly: again, without getting noticed. He's also pretty good at that. His resonance helps in both cases: he's grimly sure that more than one Grigori has gotten killed from not being able to tell an angelic disturbance from a demonic one. Not that those arrogant 'Virtues' could care less (Eggur laughed for three weeks when he finally heard that Uriel got booted Upstairs for incompetence). His current Role as a struggling storekeeper is typical: nobody looks for a Grigori without family ties, and he can often quietly alert local law enforcement when he detects a problem. One last note: Eggur has always made it a point to know about everybody else broken by the War, on both sides. For the most part, he doesn't interact much with them, even the Grigori: most of those that do know about him (there aren't many) have no idea that he's anything else but an 'ordinary' Outcast Watcher. He makes it a point to not show off his extra abilities without a very good reason. Oddly, the ones he has the most contact with are Uriel's old Servitors: they may not be the easiest people to deal with, but even a lunatic blackwing Tsayadim has to respect somebody who's spent thirteen thousand years staying true to his ideals... ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 05:44:44 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> [Choir] The Abelim Wow how did i inspire this one? >Thanks to Cassandra for this one. Yes, I know that the plural probably >Abelim >The Mourners > With a name like that they sound more like some one who jumps in the line of fire to stop some one else getting killed or some such. >Manner and Appearance > >Abelim appear in dark robes, silver wings protruding from the back. These >wings are constantly shedding feathers, which fade a few moments after they >fall to the ground; Neat. >Eli (restricted): Mourners serving Creation may, instead of reducing grief, >amplify it, inducing a feedback state in the target. The person becomes >engulfed in grief, effectively stunned for (check digit) minutes - but >after that, the pain they feel is permanently at the level to which the >angel's normal resonance would have reduced it. Elis Abelim are nasty... Thankyou, i like them. Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:46:45 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Grigori At 3:14 -0600 12/26/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Douglas Muir wrote: >> -- The Dissonance conditions are a bit too harsh, I think. If the Grigs >> have to intervene every time they hear disturbance -- and they hear >> disturbance much much more than ordinary angels -- they're going to be >> repeatedly drawn into conflict with Hell. Eventually, given the time >> scales involved, they'll all be dead. > >I took the dissonance conditions straight from GIN, more or less (which >the LE has indicated _will_ be canon for IN). The exact nature of their >"intervention" could perhaps be better defined, but that's going to be >largely up to the GM. Right. We probably would have discussed it more, if we'd had room. [Note that I haven't read David's text yet -- I will when I've got a bit more time.] > I imagine that most of the Grigori have devised a >number of coping mechanisms to act without getting directly involved -- >this is why I hinted that they might have large, conspiratorial networks >nowadays. Thus providing a good plot device for the GM, when the PCs >start getting anonymous "tips" about diabolical activities... That was essentially the intent; they're not Malakim or Fire Servitors, and don't have to act directly. The notion was that they were created primarily to serve as watchdogs for, and clean-up after, demonic tamperings. What the GIN text doesn't say, but was intended, is that they aren't necessarily required to chase after the demon, "react" may simply be to try to repair the damage done to the humans involved, basically "undoing" the disturbance. Of course, in the pre-exile days, they'd likely also call in a Malakite to hunt down the demon as well. The above is probably all "semi-canon", at best, BTW. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 01:51:37 -0400 From: pbarkow@is2.dal.ca Subject: Re: IN> Grigori Servitor (Wheeee!!!) On 26 Dec 00, at 21:41, Maurice Lane wrote: > My, my, my: aren't _I_ pugnacious tonight? Many > thanks to David E. for his writeup of the Grigori: it > was just what I needed to finish this one up. > > Of course, considering what I _did_ with it, that > might not be such a good thing... > > ;) > > Morgan (SAW) > Kyriotate of Destiny > Petitioner for the Word of Revisionist History > > Eggur > Outcast Grigori of War A most interesting character. You've out done yourself again. Now, it would have been even more interesting to see this chap accept Michael's Challenge.... "30) Love is when you stare at each other from across the dinner table and make suggestive Pikachu noises at each other... While guests are present." -Mini Philip Barkow pbarkow@is2.dal.ca http://is2.dal.ca/~pbarkow/ Harbinger of Keener-sama Vice President DPG Official Fashion Consultant and Hentai of the DGML Shameless Faith/Buffy shipper. Lapsed Discordian Head of the Keiko-chanian faction ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 01:01:31 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Clever Game Stunts (Re: GURPS In-Nomine) At 11:32 -0500 12/26/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >On 12/26/00 10:39 AM, "Elizabeth McCoy" alleged: > >> At 12:01 PM -0500 12/25/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >>> On 12/25/00 10:46 AM, "Elizabeth McCoy" alleged: >> >> To give credit (?) where it is due, the player in question _had_ worked >> out this trick ahead of time as a way of filching items which were too >> big for her normal weight limit -- that's why she had the Song in the >> first place. It was _planned_ obnoxiousness. > >Oh, I am nothing but impressed with the entire affair. It takes real effort >to be that much of a pain in the neck to Baalites. And she works at it. Of course, an Obsession about paying back the War for something they did to her (she thinks, at least) has something to do with it.... >(Of course, I now expect the character to drop something suitably >appropriate on Baalites in the next section. A semi, say. Or a Cray. Or the >mysterious Honda Insight that's been following them....) Her preference would be a tac-nuke. A stolen canister of anthrax spores would be just as good, if celestials weren't (unfortunately) immune. Or maybe she'll just engineer a road-rage incident with a bunch of War Malakim. (From a safe distance, of course.) >Learned, understood and *used,* on the other hand.... What, no "*ab*used"? I'm crushed.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 01:02:01 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Cel. Song of Machines (was Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine) On 12/27/00 12:36 AM, "Walter Milliken" alleged: > At 12:01 -0500 12/25/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > A *nasty* little Song; it has other abuses, which this character generally > isn't interested in. (At least until there's some clear need for them....) > She has a broad definition of "clear need," of course.... > >> There are disadvantages for running games with the people who wrote them. > > Actually, I griped about that Song during the Songbook playtest, but it > went in as written, more or less, I think. I don't think it even got > a flaming feather, as some of the ones that I wrote did.... > It's not that you or Elizabeth wrote the Song -- you mentioned at the time you didn't -- but you *know* this system, to the point of intuition. It'd be like having David Edelstein for a player, or David Pulver playing in your BESM or GURPS Technomancer game. > Besides, I'm just good at coming up with totally weird gimmicks > sometimes. I don't have to write the game. You don't want to know > some of my old D&D war stories, or GURPS Space ones. Maybe some > players need a "Flaming Feather", too.... > So, you have a Malakite of Creation attunement. I must remember this.... > > Just remember to put me up for the Brian award this year.... > The what? - -- Eric A. Burns - in-sabre@annotations.com - http://www.annotations.com "It was then I felt my heart break like a fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." - --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:17:19 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine > >>Two celestials, A and B. > >>A has the Bad Temper disad. > >>B has the Bad Temper disad and a level of the Discord disad linked to >it. > > > > > > > >Coolness. I'd say that there should be a min -1 reaction modifier, at >least > >for angels. > >Oh, quite! You see, the Discord disad is, IIRC, -5 points/level. So, with >a -1 reaction for every -5 points of DIscord... I thought Walter said something different. But, I think I just may have just misinterpreted it. :) (eg didn't get it) > >>It is noted that a form may well have Short Arms, Inconvenient Size, or > >>other problems which may prevent the normal celestial strength to be > >>used _effectively_. > > > >Hrm. I'll have to look into the mechanics of it. > >Hopefully they're fairly simple. Why? GURPS doesn't have to be simple. I mean, it's nice, but reality building is hardly simple. Take, for instance, creating a human being. :) > >>Probably, though there was a lot of baggage associated with that one -- > >>_all_ celestials got vessels from sacrificed humans. (Angels asked >first, > >>and their doner-humans went to Heaven for their sacrifice...) If you > >>take that away to give them vessels via Superior Fiat, > > > >Well, yes. But I wouldn't have removed that. > >You can always put it back... O:> True. And I could always have removed it. >I think general audiences would have had more problems with it, overall. >It's a bit harder to tweak certain contrast/brightness aspects if it's >totally canon that someone _died_ to put one on Earth. Uh. I guess, but in a game-world where it is not merely assumed but outright stated that human souls LIVE ETERNAL, I should hope that death wouldn't be such a big deal. Now, good folk being dammed to Hell, that's a different story than "merely passing on." And, in the version/spin I stated before, in which /already/ dying souls donate their body to the cause of Good (like organ donation, only on a more "whole"some scale (heh heh)) then no one is dying, rather, being killed, so that angels can have bodies. It may be that such souls are given a free ticket into heaven, lemme check . . . Here it is: "The angels, them, could enbody themselves in human volunteers. To not make doubles(?), the Demons enbodied themselves in the bodies of humans in the process of dying." (INS/MV pg 8) (?)- Pour ne pas faire de doublons, -I'm not sure why they wouldn't want to create doubles, but hey, what do I know about Lucifer's plans. I'd say that the American audience would have *more* problems with the "rules" used to determine who gets into heaven and who doesn't (of normal humans): "1. If the script (adventure pkg) indicates that the character is a criminal (according to the terms of human law), he goes to Hell; 2. If he committed suicide because of your mistake ("your" referring to the PCs) he goes to Hell; 3.If he's part of a religious order or is a Soldier or servant of God or follows blindly the precepts of the Church and doesn't fall into either (1) or (2), he goes to Heaven; 4. in all other cases, roll 1d66: 1d66 Result 11-13 Heaven 14-46 Purgatory 51-66 Hell" (INS/MV pg 32) And while this is all couched in terms of the game (described as a criminal in the game materials, committed suicide because of the PC's mistake) I don't feel that it really jives with America's apparent popular romantic notions of suicide and crime (not that I agree with any of it, but I do believe it's there). [ OTOH, it /is/ entry into Heaven as defined by a group which is basing much of the system on Catholic belief (well, while mocking it slightly and turing the philosophic essentials on end, like who Christ really was and ignoring the Catholic orders of angels, which In Nomine has taken FULL advantage of for character classes). ] >[...] > >>If there's no way to soul-kill > >>someone, your enemies _always_ show up again, and you're never _really_ > >>threatened. > > > >Uh . . . unless you provide Songs and/or Relics which DO Soul damage, > >Oh, sure -- but we're talking taking from the original here, not taking >one element from the original and making it map to the current status. >If you start talking in _those_ terms, then either it's a case of >"mixing them both for cool house rules," or else we get into a paradox >of chicken and egg which makes my head hurt. Well, I was trying to incorporate the "new ideas" of soul damage and soul-killing without removing the original single body status. Of course, if you're going to add Soul killing to the original game, you may as well change the rules for bodies (and basic world mechanics like adding the Symphony so In Nomine feels more like Mage, discard the Skyscraper model which no longer works all that well because of the added Forces system and therefore three parallel/separate realms which feel kinda like the Astral Plane from GURPS Psionics . . .) > >>I think that for IN/SJG, the flavor of the vessel stuff, plus the >ability > >>to go celestial, was worth the weirdities. > > > >The ability to go celestial is *nice*, but could be replaced with a >simple > >song. And I /prefer/ the Angelic/Demonic Aura, anyway, since mortals >will > >actually *see* it (try getting a mortal to witness your Celestial form >when > >I'm trying to remember the mechanics of that one -- some of the adventures >I've heard didn't seem to rely on that one working... > > >their perception is a 4, or worse, a 2). > >At least you can add your Celestial Forces to that... ??? A detail I seem to have missed, but feels like a "fix" to make up for a system that doesn't work for mundanes/an entire class of character which is kinda "stuck" with low stat _potential_, not that the same isn't true in the French game. ... > >Sure, there's the Songs of Nimbus, > >but Celestial form, the /innate/ ability of angels, COSTS ESSENCE, and 2 >at > >that. I mean, for an innate ability, I find that a bit much. > >Think of it as an innate Song... O;> Oh, and not an Attunement? > >I may just use those changes in my next game, if not my current one, >players > >willing. > > Report on how they change the feel of the game, if you do? O:> Well, I /did/ run a single INS/MV adventure with an angel of Micheal and Laurance. The Angelic Aura was used a few times. Once to convince a police officer to let the PCs save the hostages, a second attept at this on a second police officer who turned out to be a Demon who /also/ wanted to free the hostages (the terrorists both being Demons), and one of my players /still/ wishes she'd used her Aura for the mother and child to see, since she feels that could have helped *a lot* to aid the boy into understanding/believing that Heaven/Angels are the *good* guys and not the *bad* guys as the boy (a Psi/Child of the Grigori) has been led to believe by the Psi who's had access to him and his mother. [Jeffie, now a rising villian, has protrayed ALL Celestials as evil and/or meddling and unwanted/unneeded "Extraterrestials" who need to be removed from Earth so that Humankind can reclaim its planet.] So, the innate Aura /did/ change the course of the game (without using up valuable Essence, which may be a bad thing but I doubt it) and its NOT HAVING BEEN USED has certainly had an impact on the overall campaign. The fact that it was Essenceless to use meant that it was a tool the players/PCs were willing to use more than their Powers, which cost Power Points. I feel that this reflects the "spread the Good Word" job-point which is one of the duties of an Angel in Magna Veritas. .... > >>I suspect that if INS/MV had been > >>'ported to GURPS in the first place, certain aspects of it would be a >lot > >>more similiar to the original than they are now. (No Kyrios/Shedim, > >>multiple vessels, or celestial forms, at a guess.) > > > >Well, yeah. And the choirs/band could have optional character packages. > >(though that'd be a mess, probably) > >My mind flinches. In truth, I'm not sure there would have _been_ Choirs >and Bands, considering what a pain it was to convert them. Or if there >were, they would have been given more traditional GURPS powers from >Supers, Psi, and Compendium. Yeah . . . I can see that. I /like/ the choirs and band, but . . . I feel like they're not *general* enough. The tribe/moon/species combos in Werewolf allow for a lot of combinations, the Mage traditions allow for a general philosophical background without deciding how /exactly/ a PC feels or works, heck, even the limited (5) different powers in Cybergeneration are combined with 18 different Yogang "clans," and of course the Clans from Vampire, which determine your PCs background, but not your personal style. I feel that the choirs determine more your character's /style/ and less their background. And then I feel that the Word helps to define the background, and that's nice. I dunno, I feel trapped by the Choir/Band definitions. Like, I don't like having two of the same choir/band in the adventure, because everyone of the same choir/band feels too much alike to me. "Oh, a Habbalah. I'll guess that her motive is to . . . punish." Upon relfection, I like the Cherubim, they don't feel too limited. I also like the Kyriotates, and Mercurians. Calabim feel ~okay~, Djinn are okay and . . . Lilim, too. And Impudites. But the Seraphim, Malakim, Ofanim, Elohim, Balseraphs, Habbalah, and Shedim all feel pretty flat and card-board cut-out to me. We had two Malakim in the party, but neither of them felt like Malakim to me. They're weren't serious enough, frankly. I think the problem for me is that the choirs/bands I've listed above as myself not liking feel to restrictive in terms of character personality and motivation. It's too invasive into realms that ususally players define. Cherubim and Djinn border on this. I feel that Lilim and Kyriotates mostly have their powers defined, rather than their personalities. Impudites and Mercurians are too close to my own personality for me to determine if the desc.s of their personalities in general are too restrictive or not. I can deal with Calabim because their personality desc is so . . . small? "You like to break and destroy things" that it allows for broadening and refining. In play, I've come to disregard most of the "personality" descriptions and just used the Resonance/Dissonance conditions, I think. ... > >Not that any of my players are willing to let their characters die (I had >to > >purposely kill one of the two malakim before they were even really >willing > >to consider it). > > Well, our first character death was when Eric ran a little >something >and the Malakite (who got hit with a blinding Song) discovered that he was >in front of a speeding truck. Oops. ha ha ha >But he brought back reinforcements and saved the day! And gave me the idea >for Malakanaries! "What do we mine?" "Goodness from men's souls!" "What do our Malakanaries detect?" "Evil!" > >But that's b/c of my GM style, where 24 hours of game time can take three > >gaming sessions. I'm working on it, but mostly b/c of low-essence >problems. > > When so much is packed into so-little time, there's never enough >essence > >to go 'round. > >_That's_ the truth!! Really, you've found that to be true, too? Do you think its intentional? I mean, I can see it, to encourage players to get their PCs to do Rites which helps to further their Word in a direct and real way. Incidently, I don't see why Rites aren't being passed out like candy if they generate Essence both for the celestial and the Word. (IIRC) ... > >>For GURPS IN, celestials should start with both at 14, probably, like >all > >>their other stats. That will raise the point cost of celestial form > >>appropriately, but won't change character generation, if you use the > >>"canon" character point model, rather than the usual "everyone gets X > >>points" > >>model. > > > >Hrm. Makes for weird "character balance" won't it? > >No more than in the original IN -- we all know that the various Choir/Band >Attunements are worth different things, and that Kyriotates of Lightning >are one of the more munchkinable combos, right? Yes, except that in IN, character point equality isn't nearly as strong an issue at it is in GURPS. IN points mean squat when you've got so little to buy, unlike in GURPS. Especially when point cost equal items are so obviously not worth the same number of points. >Basically, the Choir/Band _base_ costs were all over the map, and the >Choir/Band Attunements likewise. Giving one person X points so it >could be an Ofanite of Fire and someone else Y points so it could be >a cheaper model would reverse-break... > >There are actually 3 different suggested methods of character point >allocation: the canon model, which mirrors initial character creation >in IN; and results, likely, with a wide-range of final point levels the fixed points model, which is more typical for GURPS (and >includes the cost of the celestial "racial" template); which I imagine results in former IN players who's IN character has a higher point value in GURPS to feel the shaft because they have fewer "freebie" points with which to customize their character relative to the other players and one where >all the players pick their Choir/Band and Superior, and the GM >allocates enough points for the most expensive combination plus a few >customization points. (Oh, and I think there's one in there which suggests >fewer customization points but the GM should do up "packages" of "default >skills celestials should know"...) NICE. Good idea. I was thinking about something like that. Actually, I was thinking about starting off with 150 pts to make the "human seeming" of the celestial, then just giving them the choir/band package plus 45 points or so to purchage Songs and Attunements. Maybe a bit more than 45, we'll see. For now, we'll have the task or merely converting their characters and I'll probably give them some points to customize and take advantage of GURPS options so they can flesh out their characters. >We were trying to avoid the traps of SuperNormal that can afflict >high-power supernatural games.... Is that the idea that SuperNormals, no matter what their pt level, simply lack the sheer power that SuperPowers grant the non-Normals? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1992 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.