From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 28 19:34:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25726 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:34:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA01855 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:34:58 -0600 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:34:58 -0600 Message-Id: <200012290134.TAA01855@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1996 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 28 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1996 In this digest: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> Angels in hell Re: IN> Soldiers and dissonance conditions Re: IN> Grigori Servitor (Wheeee!!!) Re: IN> That weird pen-artifact... Re: IN> Angels in hell Re: IN> Clever Game Stunts (Re: GURPS In-Nomine) Re: IN> Other Archangels/Demon Princes Re: Cel. Song of Machines (was Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine) Re: IN> The Grigori Re: IN> The Grigori Re: IN> The Grigori Re: IN> The Grigori Re: IN> The Grigori IN> The Angel of Second Chances IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1991 Re: IN> [NPC] Gorvag, Demon of Romance Re: IN> [Choir] The Abelim IN> ?DESTRUCTION? Re: IN> The Angel of Second Chances Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:29:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 11:14 AM -0500 12/28/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >[snip] [snickersnack] >> I still kinda wished that they hadn't ruled that there was no >>such thing as an ethereal form. O:p > >??? In GIN you mean? No -- in the main book! There is no such thing as an ethereal form. Says so in the section on the realms, page with the scaley guy and the little fairy/reliever thingy. The "ethereal form" is nothing more than an iconic representation of one's current viewpoint in the Marches, apparently. I went into this more in GIN, to make that more clear. There is a reference to ethereals having something equivalent to the _celestial_ form on Earth, though, either near there, or in the celestial form section, IIRC. Or, rather, _some_ ethereals having it. > In GIN I plan on >A. keeping the Ethereal plane as the Astral plane and >B. allowing Astral Projection users to access it like Sorcerors. Recently the spouse and I were doing some totally fluffy stuff of dumping a group of angels into our GURPS Space campaign (in a non- canonical episode for either, not involving any of the other players, and basically It Never Happened), and the theory there was that Astrals in the inner astral plane were in the Marches -- but just couldn't see the dreamscapes. (Or the dreamgame-scapes, for that matter...) But the psi they met saw _them_ there. >This allows >A. Ethereals to hang out on Earth in Ethereal form (which just makes sense >to me, I mean, if Ghosts and other spirits can do it, why can't say, Zeus >(aside from the fact that he's DEAD)). In an early draft of the game, the ethereal plane _was_ essentially the astral plane, though ethereal constructs could apparently overlap, and some ethereal dwellers deliberately Discord-style blinded themselves to the icky ugly corporeal realm... >B. Astral Projections Psis to interact with these Spirits Good one. >>p. 53, Perceiving a Celestial Form. It may be a "fix" (probably for demons, >>actually), but it does flow reasonably well with the "background theory" -- >>the bigger your "soul," the more easily it's seen. (If you're in cel-form >>yourself, you add your _own_ CelForces as well! I guess too many playtest >>celestial combats had the participants wandering around going, "Duh! I >>can't find him!") > >Most likely :) Though I don't understand why it isn't automatic for >Celestial beings to see each other on the Corporeal plane within line of >sight. I ignore the need for celestial form beings to see each other so >long as there's nothing Corporeal "hiding" them (such as a wall, circus >tent). :) Maybe so that something small can "hide" better? Darned if I know... >>>I feel that this reflects the "spread the Good Word" job-point which is >>>one of the duties of an Angel in Magna Veritas. >> >>Let me ponder upon this. O:> > >Ponder away, I look forward to your response. Maybe I'll suggest that you could find a Pyramid article in it... O:> >>[...] >> >I dunno, I feel trapped by the Choir/Band definitions. Like, I don't >>like >> >having two of the same choir/band in the adventure, because everyone of >>the >> >same choir/band feels too much alike to me. [various examples of critters in play, including the Fiat crowd] > >And how canonical is Fiat? In the rules? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In the portrayal of the entities there? I haven't seen anything that I felt was totally out of bounds for canon games. And as for the Zadoc/Jordan comparison, well, I'd like to think I've managed to put both of them into states where canon would not find them out of place. I did invent both of them, after all. [...] >And I still have problems with this for most of the choir/bands, unless I >choose to take the choir/band description with a lot of salt. I feel bad, >but I often ask my players to reread the choir (band, in the case of our >Bright Lilim) and ask them if their action is in character for their >celestial species. I'd have to know some of the particulars to say whether I felt you were being overly-bound by some of the descrips or not. O:/ >>The GURPS IN book might actually help [...] > >That sounds good. I'm still waiting for my copy. -sigh- Bummer! >> >> >[...]there's never enough essence to go 'round. >> >Really, you've found that to be true, too? Do you think its intentional? [...] >>I think it's supposed to keep the game from turning into All Superpowers, >>actually. Look at how difficult Songs are to make work. So if you want >>to Smite someone, you generally have to have a cinematic fight... > >Well, the powers in INSMV are also hard to pull over dice-wise. GURPS >should bump that up the chance of success a bit. A _lot_, really -- consider that for resonances alone, the base chance of success is a 14 (on 3d6), as compared to a 6 (on 2d6), for default characters. I think humans become a lot more viable as both characters and adversaries. [Rites] >>They make diffuse Essence for the Word, and direct Essence for the >>celestial -- sort of like a "loan" in the Superior's view... > >Poopy. Mind, there's probably little to keep a Superior from discovering an activity that produces _much_ "diffuse" Essence for it, and assigning only 1 direct Essence. (With an expectation of getting, say, 3 back later...) O;> [Point Balance? Whuzzat?] >>Well, the points for GURPS IN characters are "up front" about how >>different they are, so a GM can _tell_ what's more likely to be >>wimpy and what isn't. > >Uh, yeah. Which /is/ nice. Even nicer is when a low-level character is >able to take care of his own. :) Shows the others that they need to use >what they already have _better_ instead of wanting more and more. Amen. >Stupid >munchkin power gamers, grrrr... I want story and passion! Not more frickin >firepower... (though, that is nice sometimes) SMITE! Ahem. Get me into a random smite mode, and it's Fire all the way for me. [...] >>Frankly, if I had converted characters and GURPS-native characters in >>the same game, I'd be _certain_ to use the canon model of creation for >>the native-GURPSers. Point balance would be wonky anyway, so why not >>go for it... > >Hrm. Yeah, I can see that. May as well and keep some flavor. It eliminates all pretense of equality. (And if the players can't cope with that, well......... The GM will have to come up with something. Converted characters are so rarely point-optomized, that a native character can waltz all over 'em for the same point values. Have I mentioned my attempt to convert a Werewolf back _into_ White Wolf dots? Had to take a chainsaw to the result (she had about umpty zillion dots), but she was a perfectly legal GURPS W:TA character.) >( >player: "Hey, his Ofanite is more powerful than my Seraph!" >gm: "Um, kinda. He has more physical powers, but remember that Seraphim >typically have the final decision among angels of equal rank." >player: "Oh. Cool." >gm: "(mumbling) not that it'll happen with these players . . ." >) [...] >> >Actually, I was thinking about starting off with 150 pts to make the >>"human >> >seeming" of the celestial, then just giving them the choir/band package >>plus >> >45 points or so to purchage Songs and Attunements. Maybe a bit more than >> >45, we'll see. >> >>Try it with 100 for the "human seeming," then see how it tacks on with >>the boosted stats celestials get. You can always give them the 50 if that >>turns out not to flow well. > >Well, the extra 50 above 100 is to cover increased basic costs, since I'm >starting Perception and Will at 10 separate from IQ, Ah! Gotcha! Point taken. [...] >seeming to be a little more potent than a typical starting hero (100pts) and >150 is also a nice, round number. :P I can never figure out why people need more than 100 points to be moderately potent.... But then, I and spouse were responsible, we think, for another GM starting another campaign on 100 points after we designed 150-point PCs... (I also have this suspicion that my character was primarily responsible for him eliminating psionics from the world. *sniff* But I was having _fun_ with the Swiss Army Psi.) [...] >>Ah, good, some feedback for how the conversion chapter works.... O:> > >ha ha ha . . . I'll try and remember, but I'm sure I'll forget and then >later think that I should make a comment (ie complain) about it. :l I'll try to remind you when you announce you've finally got the book? [SuperNormal] >>No, it's the idea that a SuperNormal who is properly optimized can >>frequently wipe the floor with Supers, in GURPS, if built on the same >>number of points. > >-really-??? Well, with the right equipment I can see that (see GURPS Black >Ops which I LOVE). And if you have things like Multimillionaire, you can _get_ the right equipment... It turns out that in GURPS, normal weapons are frequently dangerous enough -- and damage-reducing advantages rare enough -- that a sniper of _lower_ point value can trash at least one Super before said Super knows what hit it. Or so I recall from various discussions on the old SJG-BBS, long and long ago. > I may have a Black Ops team show up if the Psis are >revealed to the proper authorities (or rival Psis). Oooooooooooooo, neeeeeeet! At 7:48 AM -0500 12/27/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: [...] >>Choirs and Bands would probably have been templates, and would probably >>have been more point-balanced. As it is, Kyriotates are by far and away >>the most expensive Choir/Band, and this is consistent with my experience >>with IN -- Kyrios are usually a *lot* more effective in the game than >>most other Choirs/Bands. > >Yeah. And they're so annoyingly good at it that I complete disallow them >IMCs. Awwww, but they're _fun_! No, really, they're a blast. When the PCs use them to spy on the evil demons, you can really hurry things along a bit by making the evil demons about to do something evil, so the Kyrio springs to the attack before the players have plotted things to death. (Okay, okay -- I wouldn't have missed the Giant Rat of Sumatra for the world...) But one DOES really have to know what they're capable of and plan for it as well as have the NPCs plan for it. [...] >OTOH, I've always wanted to slap Kyrios with a lot of >Dissonance because IMO, leaving a person without memory of a large chunk of >time in which they supposedly interacted in the world, and not leaving them >a run down of what they were seen doing, is a disservice and leaves them in >a worse condition than when the Angel arrived. I could see that, frankly. It would restrict Kyriotates to aware humans who could be informed of things, and animals. A perfectly logical choice, provided you tell your players this ruling up-front and they aren't the sort to argue it. It would permit the occasional Superhuman Feat for when the Kyrio wants to help someone out, but an eensy memory gap... Hey, I've had a few of those myself. I usually attributed it to teleporting to the telephone without crossing (and thus remembering) the intervening space. (And from _my_ experience, the McGuffin is That Thing Upon Which The Plot Hinges. The Maltese Falcon, for instance -- everyone wanted it, and chased around after it; it was the McGuffin for the story. In FotM, Mira is given a McGuffin artifact by Malphas that [insert the spoiler here regarding Max]. In Feast of Blades, the Dagger of B is the McGuffin.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:25:24 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels in hell At 6:09 PM -0500 12/27/00, Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki wrote: >BTW, does someone want to point me to what book it talks about Helltongue >causing dissonance to angels other than Seraph[im]? Perhaps I'm daft, but I >can't find it. Is it in the main rulebook? No, the stuff about learning Helltongue is in _Heaven & Hell_. In the main book, there's a little box about "the dark celestial tongue," IIRC. Helltongue is a later term for it which may not even be canon; I honestly don't know if it's crept in. (Well, it probably crept into GIN. "dark celestial tongue" is just _cumbersome_. O:p ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:32:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers and dissonance conditions At 11:44 PM -0500 12/27/00, Janet Anderson wrote: >If a Soldier doesn't follow the restrictions of his angel, does the angel >take dissonance? Generally not -- it depends on the dissonance. A Servitor of Jean might have some problems if it didn't keep "unauthorized" tech out of mundane hands, whether or not the Soldier did it. But that's indirect -- a Servitor of David will not take dissonance if "its" Soldier uses a gun. (In fact, the Liber Reliquarum has a "David's Sling" artifact that Stoney Soldiers sometimes are given, IIRC; something to do with the David who took out Goliath.) >Or does the angel merely suffer the disapproval of his fellow Servitors for >not keeping his Soldier in line? Quite likely, depending on the action. Flowers, for instance, would do a lot of "tsk"ing about a violent Soldier. >Or would his Superior, if he or she heard of it, tell him "I don't care if >you took dissonance or not, don't let him do that again!" Might well -- especially of Flowers. >I seem to recall, in *A Bright Dream*, the Mercurian had her servant kill a >human. On the other hand, we all know what a miserable excuse for a >Mercurian she was. Quite. Bringing Nicole into the arguement is pretty iffy. Though a Mercurian (especially a slightly... cracked... one) could do that. It's not dissonant, just disturbing and disgusting and liable to make triads of Judgment wonder if you're slipping... (A Seraph is, indeed, unlikely to directly say, "Go lie for me," but a sufficiently pragmatic one might say, "Take care of that," when both know full well that some lies are almost certain to occur. It is... distasteful. But if one must have something done...) >On the third hand, would allowing (or encouraging) your Soldiers to do >things you can't do be considered a legitimate loophole by Superiors if it >didn't lead to dissonance? Yup. Though see above -- depending on what the thing is, and how it is phrased/ordered/requested, it might indicate a mental slipping that would potentially interest triads somewhat. >(The problem with this Soldier is that he's ex-Army, very handy with a >rifle, and my character's a Servitor of Stone.) You're safe, most likely. Heck, the Soldier can even hit first, though that would probably bother the character a fair amount. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:33:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Grigori Servitor (Wheeee!!!) At 4:03 AM -0400 12/27/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >>Note that Eggur has boosted his Attributes to the >>maximum possible without taking an extra Force. > >It's never been clear to me whether angels can _only_ get new Forces with >the help of a Superior, or whether they can occasionally just grow 'em on >their own. GM choice. One method is to presume that it's 10 points for a Superior- granted Force, and 12 if you do it by raising attributes. I think that suggestion MAY have made it into the GMG, but I am not sure. [...] >Now /this/ is one of those -- thump! -- "why didn't I *think* of that" >ideas. Of course a few Grigs were in Limbo when their Choir got judged and >expelled. (Same reaction. I was grinning.) >This raises some interesting questions about heavenly justice. Hey, he was already Outcast, right? Close 'nuff.... O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:33:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> That weird pen-artifact... At 3:53 PM +0100 12/27/00, Philippe Bolay wrote: >Im building my first IN campaign and Im using an artifact I heard about on >the list. Its a pen that has some powerfull properties. If you use it to >change the text in any book, it automatically changes the text in all >issues. Is this artifact from an IN expansion, or is it just something that >someone on the list made up? It's something Moe made up, IIRC. The Pen of Editing, which I _think_ I may have alluded to once and he designed. (Unless I've just sideslipped universes again, into one where he _didnt't_ do that.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:33:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels in hell At 3:28 PM -0500 12/27/00, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Tafka J. wrote: > >> At 10:46 AM -0500 12/25/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> > Remember that, house rules to the contrary, angels cannot lie when they >> > are in celestial form. They're either speaking angelic, which CANNOT >> > be used to lie, or they're speaking Helltongue, which inflicts dissonnance >> > if they lie. >> >> Does this mean that 'canonically': An angel can speak in Helltongue >> without dissonance, so long as they speak only the truth like a Seraph >> would? > >No. Canonically, an angel saying "I am an angel." in Helltongue gets a >point of dissonance. No exceptions. No, _LEARNING_ Helltongue causes a point of dissonance. USING Helltongue is fine, so long as you act like a Seraph about it. Re-read Heaven&Hell. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:41:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Clever Game Stunts (Re: GURPS In-Nomine) At 11:37 AM -0500 12/28/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >> >> > We just _do_ things like that. Surely we told you about the Dancing >> >> > Anvil, no? >> >> >> >>...eep? >> > >> >Corporeal Song of Machines? >> >>GURPS Spells, creative use of Teleport Other and Air Golem, and one >>very dead evil priest who escaped the previous deathtrap he was in... > >-sounds cool- :) Remind me to relate the saga in email sometime... But! I hath recalled a couple of Evil Stunts for In Nomine. Both involving the same Kyriotate of Lightning. Primus, the event that likely contributed to the Liber Canticorum ruling that Song of Acid only works if the GM thinks the possessed item has a "mouth." I think I only need one quote for this. "You can't Dodge your underwear." Secundus: Upon dealing with an annoying demon with a cop vessel, who was about to put out an APB on us, the Kyriotate took over her radio just as she was describing our van. Instead, "she" described a station-wagon, which we'd run... across (only sideswiped, really!) the other night, driven by a Balseraph (we didn't know that) who was babysitting (we didn't know that either) a bunch of Impudites (ditto) with shotguns (THAT we knew...). Kyriotate of Jean attunement; evil, evil, evil. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:48:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Other Archangels/Demon Princes At 11:51 AM -0500 12/28/00, zlindsey wrote: >I'm sure this question has been asked before, but this talk of Crocell, >Demon Prince of Cold, has made me wonder, are there any other Archangels and >Demon Princes in INS/MV that got left out of In Nomine completely? Oh, utterly. Not to mention that some of the INS/MV ones were conflated together in IN/SJG. (Saminga and Asmodeus, for two; they both take elements of two or more INS/MV Princes.) I think there might be some lists somewhere in the archives, but, well, the archives of the digest are nigh unto as bad to search as Kronos' Archive. Clearly we need to team up Maya and someone with a web-page to preserve that list.... - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:56:58 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Cel. Song of Machines (was Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine) At 1:02 -0500 12/27/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >On 12/27/00 12:36 AM, "Walter Milliken" alleged: >> A *nasty* little Song; it has other abuses, which this character generally >> isn't interested in. (At least until there's some clear need for them....) > >She has a broad definition of "clear need," of course.... Any Lilim does. >It's not that you or Elizabeth wrote the Song -- you mentioned at the time >you didn't -- but you *know* this system, to the point of intuition. Actually, I don't think that makes a difference. It's more that I have the ability to quickly find and use amusing rules interactions. (GM's generally refer to it as something else....) >So, you have a Malakite of Creation attunement. I must remember this.... Approximately. Or maybe some similar attunement from the Game.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 2000 09:58:55 -0800 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The Grigori On Thu, 28 December 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Besides, it would be cruel to make _more_ beings who would likely be > just as punished. Either that, or taken away and "re-educated" if they > were found. Think about the existance of such a being. Why should the Grigori have it any better than humanity? Yes, I *am* feeling bitter today. Thanks for asking. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:20:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Grigori At 9:58 AM -0800 12/28/00, Casca wrote: >On Thu, 28 December 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Besides, it would be cruel to make _more_ beings who would likely be >> just as punished. Either that, or taken away and "re-educated" if they >> were found. Think about the existance of such a being. > >Why should the Grigori have it any better than humanity? Celestials, presumably, don't have the Driving Urge to Reproduce that causes humans to inflict life upon their offspring... >Yes, I *am* feeling bitter today. Thanks for asking. Eek. I hope that the day gets better. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 2000 11:11:26 -0800 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The Grigori On Thu, 28 December 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Why should the Grigori have it any better than humanity? > > Celestials, presumably, don't have the Driving Urge to Reproduce > that causes humans to inflict life upon their offspring... Celestials in general? I could buy that. The Grigs? Nope. Considering that they were closer to humanity than Mercurians, and could interbreed without using the Songs of Fruition... Heck, if the stories are to be believed, it was the Driving Urge that got them Outcast in the first place. > Eek. I hope that the day gets better. Venting cynicism in public usually helps, yes. Thank you. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:34:03 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Grigori Casca wrote: > Celestials in general? I could buy that. The Grigs? Nope. Considering that they were closer to humanity than Mercurians, and could interbreed without using the Songs of Fruition... > > Heck, if the stories are to be believed, it was the Driving Urge that got them Outcast in the first place. Well, supposedly they were created divine, and it was the process of becoming corrupted that caused them to want to procreate. In other words, they went from being Heavenly to being earthy, representing a spiritual downfall for angels. But maybe it's what God intended all along... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:46:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Grigori Maybe some large fraction of the Grigori have decided they LIKE being Outcast. All celestials have to keep their heads down and work quietly while on the Corporeal Plane; Grigori just have to do so a little more, and they're already good at it. Meanwhile, they are invited out of all the Heavnside politicking and can take part in the War just as much as they want, in the way that they want, within the limits of their exile. > But maybe it's what God intended all along. Another view likely to be popular with Grigori, who may even have their own religions based on the concept. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:24:51 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Angel of Second Chances "Where am I?" "The Village." "What?" "Sorry couldn't resist. Your in the hospital morgue." "I've been dying for months of cancer but..." "Pretty much but I brought you back." "I was dead." "Some dead. Not all dead." "What?" "Just go with me. Jeez don't you watch television? Basically I'm an angel and you were going to hell." "For what!?" "A life of shameless debauchery for one. Shall I go on?" "Oh. But I'm not going to Hell now?" "Depends on you if accept this second chance to make yourself something useful." "And if I don't." "I kill you." Reapius Master of Destiny Friend of the Unseen Olfanim of Destiny in service to Wind The Angel of Second Chances Cor-4 Str-8 Agi-8 Eth-5 Int-10 Pre-10 Cel-4 Will-7 Per-9 Vessel: Human (+1 Sex Appeal) 6/, Owl 4/ Skills: Detect Lies 4/, Dodge 3/, Emote 3/, Fast Talk 3/, Fighting 1/, Lying 2/, Medicine 4/, Seduction 2/, Security 2/, Tracking 6/ Servants: Human 1-3 Role-1-4 Songs: Attraction (Celestial 3/), Charm (Celestial 4/), Entropy (Corporeal 5/), Healing (Corporeal 6/, Ethereal 6/, Celestial 3/), Light (Ethereal 1/) Attunements:Cherubim of Janus, Olfanim of Janus, Divine Destiny, Divine Logic, Friend of the Unseen, Master of Divine Knowledge (Elohim), Passage Word forces: 7 Special Rites: * Recruit a soldier of God from a mortal well on his way to his fate Attunement: The Smell of Failure Reapius has the unusual ability as an Olfanim to smell where his next "victem" is. The sweating stink of a mortal swiftly approaching his fate due to failure, despair, and destruction is something that is pretty much unmistakable to the Angel of Second chances and combined with his Olfanim Resonance he usually gets there lickety split. This means Reapius is always "on duty" but he only uses the attunement after he's "done" with his current assignment which means he has to take what fun he can out of his duties. Reapius gladly shares this attunement to any angel he feels is going to put it to good use...in other words become pretty much the fanatic he is. Reapius hates his job. No really, he absolutely loathes it. Mainly because he absolutely loves Humanity with the passion of a Mercurian but he constantly is getting stuck with the mortals he most wants to beat the living crud out of. The very old Angel was orginally a servitor of Destiny who was once reliever to the holder of the word of Second Chances during the 14th century. When servitors of Saminga managed to destroy that being Reapius worked for years to try and earn the place his master had fallen and in the 19th century after a incident which impressed the Seraphim council (Reapius claims alternatively it was inspiring Charles Dicken's a Christmas Carol which ticks off Blandine servitors and Seraphim, Convincing Jack the Ripper to turn himself in which ticks off Judgement servitors and Seraphim, and helping Nybbas realize the TV was not a good idea which makes everyone just stare at him) and he recieved the word of Second chances. Personally the word is on the downslide with society of "No mistakes", "No forgiveness because if you were sorry you wouldn't have done it" etc but with the whole "Touched by an Angel sticke" as Reapius says and the natural propensity of humanity to screw up, he's not afraid his word is going to be dissapearing any time soon and thus is devoted to helping it on a far more individual level with life changing experiences. Reapius finds those who are alcoholics, suicidal, on the verge of death, and numerous other works who have managed to make not only their lives miserable but the lives of virtually everyone else miserable as well. Reapius also understands that frankly his word is a personal affront to some people whose names start with S and K and a bad experience in the 1950s basically led him to conclude that he needed alittle more edge to escaping the fate of his predecessor. Asking Yves to allow him to enter the service of Janus for awhile (he didn't want to learn how to stand there stupidly and face a marauding horde of Calabim as Laurence, David, and Michael would) he's become increasingly adept at escaping and avoiding the demonic hunters that have dogged his footsteps for so long. Indeed through Janus he's managed to lay a number of traps for those whove "pushed" his targets into bad situations. Reapius as stated isn't very fond usually of the humans he's around but as the above story shows, he's pretty much by nature got to give them the chance to make something of their lives...and is awfully proud about just how sucessful he is with this kind of stuff. He'll even give a demon a second chance, though frankly he's a bit more particular about the type of place and presence that he'll meet with one than say ohhhh a servitor of Novalis might be. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 21:55:20 -0000 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1991 > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:18:40 -0500 > From: Elizabeth McCoy > Subject: Re: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #1988 > > At 11:45 PM +0000 12/26/00, Adam Benedict Canning wrote: > [On house rule ways to conceal one's celestial nature in Hell] > > >Do you get both choirs for a Master of Divine Knowledge [Which is > >trick 5 if you don't, use angels who have been _upgradeded_ to > >Malakim.] > > I'm not sure what you mean by "get both Choirs." You get resonance > and dissonance, not Other Effects. (A MoDK with Kyrio resonance does > not freak people out with their celestial form; a MoDK with Malakite > resonance has to take the vows, but doesn't get the No Trauma or > Cannot Fall side effects.) It is up to the GM if the celestial > appearance of the MoDK changes slightly. (I would tend to add some > special effects, yes, but it'd obvious which Choir is the > "base" one.*) I'd understood Cannot fall as being art of the resonance. No Trauma is slightly more debateable [But we've had that one before.] > >Otherwise You just hide the Malakim in the Guildhall and hope they > >come out again without dying of exhaustion.:) > > > > > > > * (The Archangel of Archives has a debatable "base" Choir, but she's > a Superior anyway and is entitled.) Next silly Question does one need previous experience to tell a Bright lilim who's favourite colours are black or white from a Malakim or a Mercurian respectively? Or is it officially one of those direct information inserts so that should Jean for example invent a new choir any angel who sees it will know what it is without having to be told? can see fun ways to play with the players minds either way. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:18:21 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Gorvag, Demon of Romance - --- neelk@alum.mit.edu wrote: > Gorvag > Djinn Demon of Romance > Knight of Integrity [thunderous applause!] > Adventure Seeds: > > o Come on, do I really have to supply any? No, but I'm sure that they'd be doozies. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "...faith is only pure when it does not negate the faith of another." -- Eli Weisel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:23:54 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> [Choir] The Abelim - --- EDG wrote: > Abelim > The Mourners Yikes, you're not kidding about these guys being too depressing to be PC's. They'd be great for enhancing atmosphere, though. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "...faith is only pure when it does not negate the faith of another." -- Eli Weisel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 21:36:00 -0300 From: Bigatto Subject: IN> ?DESTRUCTION? I've got a question about what is most likey to happen in the given situation: I and my friends were playing In Nomine. We all were playing with demons and we were in Salvador, Brazil. My character was a calabite servitor of Belial and the rest of the group were servitors of Saminga. Our mission was to destroy an Andrealphus' demon, called Macedo. We went undergroud and prepared to explode the area were he should be (and we would use the song of shield to prevent damage)... but somehow the explosion was a little too big and we wiped out a whole district of the city, causing a disturbance that EVERY celestial could perceive in a radius of at least 14 Earths (at least 5000 people died plus houses and cars destroyed..)! If my character summoned Belial successfully, would he: a) Kill the party for having caused so much disturbance. b)Kill just his servitor because of the huge disturbance. c)Help the party with subtlety (sendind them to the marches or to a safe place in hell). d)Get excited for the huge explosion and begin to fight the angels and other enemies that happen to appear by the site of the explosion. e)Do another thing. (please, say what..) Maybe this will seem ridiculously stupid and meaningless to you, but it is a real doubt.... So, please answer it. Grateful for your time and work. Mauro. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:54:18 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Second Chances - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Reapius > Master of Destiny > Friend of the Unseen > Olfanim of Destiny in service to Wind > The Angel of Second Chances Hah! The dialogue alone was worth the effort. Thanks, Charles, I needed that. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "...faith is only pure when it does not negate the faith of another." -- Eli Weisel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 01:33:16 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine > >[snip] >[snickersnack] And with its head, the beast was dead. He went gallumphing back. Twas brilig and the slithy toes did gire and gimble in the wabe All mimsy were the borrow groves and the mome raths out grabe. anyway, that's from memory, so I'm sure its inaccurate. Needs an ethereal write-up, though, the Jabberwock does. > >> I still kinda wished that they hadn't ruled that there was no > >>such thing as an ethereal form. O:p > > > >??? In GIN you mean? > >No -- in the main book! There is no such thing as an ethereal form. >Says so in the section on the realms, page with the scaley guy and >the little fairy/reliever thingy. The "ethereal form" is nothing >more than an iconic representation of one's current viewpoint in the >Marches, apparently. I went into this more in GIN, to make that more >clear. oh. Whatever, thats B.S. if that were true, then mortals couldn't even exist in the Marches at night. What meaningless tribble. *obviously* there's an ethereal form, otherwise how does ethereal combat work? what do you do, THINK each other to death . . . sheesh. To completely lack an "ethereal form" would mean to be formless in an ethereal sense. I believe that what David was saying here is that there are no "fixed" or "set" ethereal forms. I believe that one's ethereal form would be like -sigh- ok, remember how Morpheus explains to Neo why he looks "normal" in the Matrix and no longer has the thing sticking out the back of his head and he had his hair back, "unconsious's projection of your digital self" Whatever, point is, I believe that what David meant here (as I understand) is that in the Marches, you look as you've been believing you like. So, since humans never really see themselves as looking other than in the mirror (barring severe self-image disorders, such as anorexia), they look like their mortal seeming. Celestial PCs, likewise, are assumed to have identified strongly with the appearance of their vessel (or mortal seeming). I would allow for a Celestial to appear as he sees himself in his mind's eye. While this provides an interesting (and, AFAIK, appropriate) loop-hole for Balseraphim to exploit, I feel that it would more accurately reflect the true nature of the ethereal plane, where belief and thought shape the landscape and the denizens which people it. >There is a reference to ethereals having something equivalent to the >_celestial_ form on Earth, though, either near there, or in the >celestial form section, IIRC. Or, rather, _some_ ethereals having it. I'm not seeing it, in this The Marches? > > In GIN I plan on > >A. keeping the Ethereal plane as the Astral plane and > >B. allowing Astral Projection users to access it like Sorcerors. > > /what?/ >Recently the spouse and I were doing some totally fluffy stuff of >dumping a group of angels into our GURPS Space campaign (in a non- >canonical episode for either, not involving any of the other players, >and basically It Never Happened), and the theory there was that Astrals >in the inner astral plane were in the Marches -- but just couldn't see >the dreamscapes. (Or the dreamgame-scapes, for that matter...) But the >psi they met saw _them_ there. Bitchin. Heh, perhaps I won't allow Astral Projectors to watch what going on inside a dream until they're actually in them. Novice "(staring in wonderment at the billions of points of shimmering light that flitter about, seemingly to infinity) What are they? They're so beautiful!" Morpheus "Careful, those aren't just pretty lights. Those are people's dreams." Novice "What? (confused) like their hopes and goals." Morpheus "No, these are dreams scapes. Each one is the fragile mind of a human being. Our minds are free and we're not trapped inside such bubbles of belief. But these people, these people are still prisoners of the Symphony. Most of these people aren't ready to be freed and will fight to death for what they believe to be true." Novice "But they're living a lie!" Morpheus "And they would not say the same of us? As Awakened beings, we must seem insane to them. We kill Demons, talk with Gods, and believe ourselves into becoming whatever we want to become. They may believe a delusion, but their reality has more supporters and that makes them dangerous." Anyway, a Matrix/Symphony/Mage rant deserves a separate thread. > >This allows > >A. Ethereals to hang out on Earth in Ethereal form (which just makes >sense > >to me, I mean, if Ghosts and other spirits can do it, why can't say, Zeus > >(aside from the fact that he's DEAD)). > >In an early draft of the game, the ethereal plane _was_ essentially the >astral plane, though ethereal constructs could apparently overlap, and >some ethereal dwellers deliberately Discord-style blinded themselves to >the icky ugly corporeal realm... weird > >B. Astral Projections Psis to interact with these Spirits > >Good one. :) thanks To me it felt like a no-brainer, but, I just think that way, I guess. [p. 53, Perceiving a Celestial Form.] > >Most likely :) Though I don't understand why it isn't automatic for > >Celestial beings to see each other on the Corporeal plane within line of > >sight. I ignore the need for celestial form beings to see each other so > >long as there's nothing Corporeal "hiding" them (such as a wall, circus > >tent). :) > >Maybe so that something small can "hide" better? Darned if I know... I guess . . . But, sigh, I dunno. That's just weird. I think the Celestial plane should feel much closer to the Near Umbra in Werewolf. That way, the equivalent of physical objects could be what "spiritually" is there. Makes more sense to me. Maybe I'll do that, too, in GIN since I have the GURPS Werewolf conversion. (I have all four, incidently. I love them to pieces, in a very real sense. They were my introduction to White Wolf and still have yet to sink much money into WW's products (other than the Vampire clanbooks, but that was a while ago). > >>>I feel that this reflects the "spread the Good Word" job-point which is > >>>one of the duties of an Angel in Magna Veritas. > >> > >>Let me ponder upon this. O:> > > > >Ponder away, I look forward to your response. > >Maybe I'll suggest that you could find a Pyramid article in it... O:> bleh. I don't even remember what the Hell we were talking about by this point. But on the spread the good word bit, I could see something that could be an article (if I didn't have so much school work backed up here to do) in regards to the various duties of angels from INSMV and how they might be appropriate for Laurence. > >>[...] > >> >I dunno, I feel trapped by the Choir/Band definitions. Like, I don't > >>like > >> >having two of the same choir/band in the adventure, because everyone >of > >>the > >> >same choir/band feels too much alike to me. >[various examples of critters in play, including the Fiat crowd] > > > >And how canonical is Fiat? > >In the rules? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In the portrayal of the >entities there? I haven't seen anything that I felt was totally out >of bounds for canon games. And as for the Zadoc/Jordan comparison, >well, I'd like to think I've managed to put both of them into states >where canon would not find them out of place. I did invent both of >them, after all. Sometimes yes, sometimes no? Maybe I'll read them and maybe I won't. :P >[...] > >>The GURPS IN book might actually help > > > >That sounds good. I'm still waiting for my copy. -sigh- > >Bummer! yeah . . . oh, well, they say anticipation's half the fun, right? > >> >> >[...]there's never enough essence to go 'round. > >> >Really, you've found that to be true, too? Do you think its >intentional? >[...] > >>I think it's supposed to keep the game from turning into All >Superpowers, > >>actually. Look at how difficult Songs are to make work. So if you want > >>to Smite someone, you generally have to have a cinematic fight... > > > >Well, the powers in INSMV are also hard to pull over dice-wise. GURPS > >should bump that up the chance of success a bit. > >A _lot_, really -- consider that for resonances alone, the base chance >of success is a 14 (on 3d6), as compared to a 6 (on 2d6), for default >characters. Uh, yeah. No crap. >I think humans become a lot more viable as both characters and adversaries. Agreed. And as and androphile (lover of humans?) I'm really excited about it. :) >[Rites] > >>They make diffuse Essence for the Word, and direct Essence for the > >>celestial -- sort of like a "loan" in the Superior's view... > > > >Poopy. > >Mind, there's probably little to keep a Superior from discovering an >activity that produces _much_ "diffuse" Essence for it, and assigning >only 1 direct Essence. (With an expectation of getting, say, 3 back >later...) O;> Those would be cool and we'd be passing them out like candy. >[Point Balance? Whuzzat?] > >>Well, the points for GURPS IN characters are "up front" about how > >>different they are, so a GM can _tell_ what's more likely to be > >>wimpy and what isn't. > > > >Uh, yeah. Which /is/ nice. Even nicer is when a low-level character is > >able to take care of his own. :) Shows the others that they need to use > >what they already have _better_ instead of wanting more and more. > >Amen. Glad we agree there. > >Stupid > >munchkin power gamers, grrrr... I want story and passion! Not more >frickin > >firepower... (though, that is nice sometimes) > >SMITE! Ahem. Get me into a random smite mode, and it's Fire all the way >for me. I dunno, I'm kinda liking my DP of Winter's cool powers. heh heh >[...] > >>Frankly, if I had converted characters and GURPS-native characters in > >>the same game, I'd be _certain_ to use the canon model of creation for > >>the native-GURPSers. Point balance would be wonky anyway, so why not > >>go for it... > > > >Hrm. Yeah, I can see that. May as well and keep some flavor. > >It eliminates all pretense of equality. "Bah! Equality?! I've never heard of such rubbish! All characters are created equal?! Nonsense." (And if the players can't >cope with that, well......... The GM will have to come up with >something. Converted characters are so rarely point-optomized, that >a native character can waltz all over 'em for the same point values. >Have I mentioned my attempt to convert a Werewolf back _into_ White >Wolf dots? Had to take a chainsaw to the result (she had about umpty >zillion dots), but she was a perfectly legal GURPS W:TA character.) heh heh yeah. That's because, I believe, GURPS allows for point spill-over between attributes, skills, and powers. Not true in the White Wolf system. >[...] > >>Try it with 100 for the "human seeming," then see how it tacks on with > >>the boosted stats celestials get. You can always give them the 50 if >that > >>turns out not to flow well. > > > >Well, the extra 50 above 100 is to cover increased basic costs, since I'm > >starting Perception and Will at 10 separate from IQ, > >Ah! Gotcha! Point taken. natch (not sure what it means, but it sounded right) >[...] > >seeming to be a little more potent than a typical starting hero (100pts) >and > >150 is also a nice, round number. :P > > I can never figure out why people need more than 100 points to be >moderately potent.... Because they waste points on lots of silly things, like all the minor little skills that their character /would/ have learned in college, like research, mathematics, chemistry or biology, b.s.ing (a hobby skills), probably a sport or hobby skill (gaming), and then there's all the _basic_ skills most of us RL people have, like swimming, driving, AK(Cable-TV), Knowledge(Trek), Basketball(hobby), AK(Local Area), and often people will take silly little advantages which add up. "Oh, I'd like acute hearing! Oh, I'd like animal empathy! Oh, I'd like acute vision! Oh, I'd like musical talent! Oh, this is shiny I'll take it! Oh, this is shiny, too! Oh . . ." And I would assume that most people forget that roleplaying and thinking well are critical to character success and not "I can read minds" or "I've got Fast-Draw of 20 and Guns(pistol) of 25." My girlfriend has a lot of bad luck with dice (like, she almost never succeeds if there's a dice roll involved, swear to God), so she's learned to roleplay her way through most situations so that she wouldn't have to roll and dice for her character's actions. But then, I and spouse were responsible, we think, >for another GM starting another campaign on 100 points after we designed >150-point PCs... (I also have this suspicion that my character was >primarily >responsible for him eliminating psionics from the world. *sniff* But I was >having _fun_ with the Swiss Army Psi.) The Swiss Army Psi? Can I use this character in my GIN campaign as a CotG? (Hint: Tell Me More) >[...] > >>Ah, good, some feedback for how the conversion chapter works.... O:> > > > >ha ha ha . . . I'll try and remember, but I'm sure I'll forget and then > >later think that I should make a comment (ie complain) about it. :l > > I'll try to remind you when you announce you've finally got the >book? okaAay >[SuperNormal] > >>No, it's the idea that a SuperNormal who is properly optimized can > >>frequently wipe the floor with Supers, in GURPS, if built on the same > >>number of points. > > > >-really-??? Well, with the right equipment I can see that (see GURPS >Black > >Ops which I LOVE). > >And if you have things like Multimillionaire, you can _get_ the right >equipment... It turns out that in GURPS, normal weapons are frequently >dangerous enough -- and damage-reducing advantages rare enough -- that >a sniper of _lower_ point value can trash at least one Super before said >Super knows what hit it. Or so I recall from various discussions on the >old SJG-BBS, long and long ago. Dude, that's fricking cool. Why didn't I think of that? > > I may have a Black Ops team show up if the Psis are > >revealed to the proper authorities (or rival Psis). > >Oooooooooooooo, neeeeeeet! Yeah, well. Equipped with Disturbance Compasses and High-Tech Force Printers, and perhaps with Disturbance-Sensitive Goggles (Celestials and other non-earth natives would glow with the minute constant Disturbances they create electronically magnified). That would for the anti-demon teams sent to investigate any and all reports/rumors of demons or demonioc activity. The anti-psi corp would of course be armed with Psi-shielded Helmets, Psionic Disrupters which explode and stun all those with Psionic gifts within range of the blast, and drugs that can be injected into Psis which act to interfere with their abilities. That, and Black Ops are just -so -damn -cool. >[...] > >>Choirs and Bands would probably have been templates, and would probably > >>have been more point-balanced. As it is, Kyriotates are by far and away > >>the most expensive Choir/Band, and this is consistent with my experience > >>with IN -- Kyrios are usually a *lot* more effective in the game than > >>most other Choirs/Bands. > > > >Yeah. And they're so annoyingly good at it that I complete disallow them > >IMCs. > >Awwww, but they're _fun_! No, really, they're a blast. When the PCs use >them to spy on the evil demons, you can really hurry things along a bit >by making the evil demons about to do something evil, so the Kyrio springs >to the attack before the players have plotted things to death. Okay, that's one good thing. >(Okay, okay -- I wouldn't have missed the Giant Rat of Sumatra for the >world...) ???? You should mean Talon (unoriginal I know, its what my unconscious game me), the Huge Rat (angel of Jordi) who blew the whistle on them consorting with Children of the Grigori as well as creating the /huge/ disturbances in Chicago. >But one DOES really have to know what they're capable of and plan for it >as well as have the NPCs plan for it. Not one of my strong points. My strong points are improvisation, wacky humor and forcing players to discover how their characters can deal with a weird situation because it hasn't really been tailored to their abilities. I'm working on it . . . >[...] > >OTOH, I've always wanted to slap Kyrios with a lot of > >Dissonance because IMO, leaving a person without memory of a large chunk >of > >time in which they supposedly interacted in the world, and not leaving >them > >a run down of what they were seen doing, is a disservice and leaves them >in > >a worse condition than when the Angel arrived. > >I could see that, frankly. It would restrict Kyriotates to aware humans >who could be informed of things, and animals. A perfectly logical choice, >provided you tell your players this ruling up-front and they aren't the >sort to argue it. It would permit the occasional Superhuman Feat for >when the Kyrio wants to help someone out, but an eensy memory gap... Hey, >I've had a few of those myself. I usually attributed it to teleporting >to the telephone without crossing (and thus remembering) the intervening >space. Like first thing in the morning? For me it's on the highway. heh heh Yeah, /that's/ safe. >(And from _my_ experience, the McGuffin is That Thing Upon Which The Plot >Hinges. The Maltese Falcon, for instance -- everyone wanted it, and >chased around after it; it was the McGuffin for the story. In FotM, Mira >is given a McGuffin artifact by Malphas that [insert the spoiler here >regarding Max]. In Feast of Blades, the Dagger of B is the >McGuffin.) And in my first game, the Box was the MacGuffin (remember that EDG?) only, it was USED in the end of the campaign. Ah, what a beautiful game. Especially when the Malakite exploded into a Discordant mess. Wasn't that you, EDG? A few sessions after your "I've got a +6 Clipboard " ?? :) - -Perry,, kfc perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1996 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.