From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Feb 2 23:15:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23856 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:15:52 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA00838 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:12:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:12:16 -0600 Message-Id: <200002030512.XAA00838@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1520 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1520 In this digest: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Re: IN> Reconciling Vows and Resonance Re: IN> [ADMIN] Nothing But Plain Text! Re: IN> Superiors 3 Question Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Re: IN> Superiors 3 Question Re: IN> Reconciling Vows and Resonance Re: IN> [ADMIN] Nothing But Plain Text! Re: IN> [ADMIN] Nothing But Plain Text! Re: IN> Fighting Styles Re: IN> Bright Lilim Sigil? Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Re: IN> Fighting Styles IN> Malakim as team players Re: IN> Malakim as team players Re: IN> Malakim as team players Re: IN> Fighting Styles Re: IN> Malakim as team players Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Fwd: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Re: IN> Malakim as team players Re: IN> Malakim as team players Re: Fwd: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell Re: Fwd: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell Re: Fwd: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell IN> Band Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:43:10 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels At 10:29 -0500 2/2/00, David Edelstein wrote: >> Oops! Third question actually: one of my players is from Jordi and has >> a cat vessel (big cat). When in this form, I don't think he can... >> hem... talk to the other (human like) players (unless he uses ethereal >> song of tongues, of course), but can he understand what the players >> are telling him? I'd say yes, but I'm not sure... > >He has his full mental faculties, regardless of his vessel. And animal >vessels *can* talk. I believe it's canon that Jordi dislikes giving animal vessels any unnatural features (like working vocal chords), unlike most AAs, who will make minor (generally unnoticable) concessions to practicality. This isn't to say he'd *never* do it, but it's not routine like it is for the other AAs. However, the angel in the cat vessel keeps the ability to understand languages and respond to them. Frankly, it's usually more interesting for the Animals Servitors to try to deal with the limitations of their animal vessels (as well as exploit their advantages) -- it adds a definite "flavor" to the Word in the game. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:52:25 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Reconciling Vows and Resonance From: "Walter Milliken" > > I agree -- it's certainly raised more questions than it answered. My own > inclination is to say that Yves intervened in the Council, proposing that > the situation be left primarily to human handling, without explaining the > reasons in detail. Another alternative is that Heaven *tried* to take out Hitler, only to be thwarted. And then Hell let Heaven know that if they kept trying, Hell would start reciprocating by killing the Allied leadership. So when forced to choose between either letting Hitler live, or possibly forcing an escalation that could well destroy the world, they chose what was literally the lesser of two evils. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:55:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jennifer Campbell Subject: Re: IN> [ADMIN] Nothing But Plain Text! Did I fix it? Sorry 'bout that. . . __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:59:26 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 3 Question - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > Future maybe-titles (not yet decided on) are: > Rogues and Riches (DPs) > War and Violence (DPs) > Peace and Nature (AAs) > The Manipulators (DPs) > Pillars and WIldcards (AAs, and one of the ones I expect may get changed) Which one's Asmodeus? Manipulators? Him, Malphas, maybe Kobal... and? (Just fishing for info here.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 12:13:10 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels >From: Walter Milliken >However, the angel in the cat vessel keeps the ability to understand >languages and respond to them. Frankly, it's usually more interesting for >the Animals Servitors to try to deal with the limitations of their animal >vessels (as well as exploit their advantages) -- it adds a definite >"flavor" >to the Word in the game. > Great. Now I'd really hate to be a Seraph of Animals... GM: What do you do? Seraph: I swim. (If a fish vessel, or "I hop" if a frog vessel) GM: Okay, now back to the rest of the group... - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Impudite of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, servitor of Kronos - ------------------------- Foaming at the Mouth http://rpg.net/news+reviews/sprite.html Touched by an Impudite http://www.insync.net/~sprite/ - ---------------------------- "Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" Thomas Daggett, The Prophecy ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:57:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels At 2:43 PM -0500 2/2/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 10:29 -0500 2/2/00, David Edelstein wrote: >>> Oops! Third question actually: one of my players is from Jordi and has >>> a cat vessel (big cat). When in this form, I don't think he can... >>> hem... talk to the other (human like) players (unless he uses ethereal >>> song of tongues, of course), but can he understand what the players >>> are telling him? I'd say yes, but I'm not sure... [...] >However, the angel in the cat vessel keeps the ability to understand >languages and respond to them. Frankly, it's usually more interesting for >the Animals Servitors to try to deal with the limitations of their animal >vessels (as well as exploit their advantages) -- it adds a definite "flavor" >to the Word in the game. And even if the animal doesn't have human-norm vocalization abilities, a sentient being can probably manage some sort of speech that's more intelligable than what a non-sentient animal could/would do. Which gives the PC the option of coming up with an annoying accent. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:59:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 3 Question At 2:59 PM -0500 2/2/00, Gregory Gietzen wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > >> Future maybe-titles (not yet decided on) are: >> Rogues and Riches (DPs) >> War and Violence (DPs) >> Peace and Nature (AAs) >> The Manipulators (DPs) >> Pillars and WIldcards (AAs, and one of the ones I expect may get changed) > >Which one's Asmodeus? Manipulators? Him, Malphas, maybe Kobal... and? >(Just fishing for info here.) Can't do Kobal, he's already done. Azzie's War & Violence, if I recall correctly. Malphas is Manipulators. Bear in mind that these are all working titles, subject to change without notice, not in proposed order of publication, etc. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:04:13 -0500 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Reconciling Vows and Resonance Walter Milliken wrote: > At 4:11 -0500 2/2/00, David Edelstein wrote: > > > >It has been brought up before on numerous occasions. I'll certainly be > >arguing for a revision when/if APG 2nd ed. happens. > > I agree -- it's certainly raised more questions than it answered. > My own inclination is to say that Yves intervened in the Council, > proposing that the situation be left primarily to human handling, > without explaining the reasons in detail. Gabriel might also have > produced some prophecy about it, but she'd swing less weight, so I'd > go with Yves. (Maybe both of them were involved -- Michael might > listen to Gabriel where he'd be suspicious of Yves.) Observe that it's not sufficient to have a one-time exception for Hitler; the history of mankind is blood-stained enough that while an awful evil the Holocaust was not really unusual. We start the century with the with the destruction of the Armenians, continue on through Lenin's Red Terror and NEP, plus Japan's invasion of China in the 1930s, followed up with the Holocaust and Stalin's starvation of the Ukraine, Mao's Great Leap Forward (itself a successor to the rice-export schemes that led to mass starvation in the 50s) and Pol Pot's killing fields and the use of starvation as a weapon by the Ethiopian government to crush the Eritrean rebellion, and of course the mass slaughters in Rwanda and so on and so on. And in older history we can start off with Caesar's conquest of Gaul (that left one-third of its population dead and another third enslaved) and Shih Huang Ti's construction of the Great Wall in China and Chaka Zulu's unification of southern Africa and the Mongol conquest of China (which in sheer numbers is still the greatest pruposeful destruction of human life ever), the Thirty Years' War following the Reformation, and the Belgian rule of the Congo. Not one of these resulted in the death of fewer than a million innocent people. There needs to be some fairly explicit policy against large-scale intervention by Heaven in IN; otherwise the question is why the angels have not yet swept down from Heaven in a white-hot fury to destroy mankind for its sins. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 13:05:00 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> [ADMIN] Nothing But Plain Text! If you still cannot figure out how to make your mail client play nice, feel free to email me directly (HTML or not) and I will be happy to provide exact instructions for any kind of mail program. Yes, that's right, I have Senior Technician/6 as a Role. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:12:19 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> [ADMIN] Nothing But Plain Text! Sean McCarthy wrote: > > If you still cannot figure out how to make your mail client play nice, feel > free to email me directly (HTML or not) and I will be happy to provide > exact instructions for any kind of mail program. Write it up and I'll put it off of the FAQ. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:49:51 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Fighting Styles From: Caias Brian Ward > Also, are what we consider Chi maneuvers in martial arts possibly Song use > by Soldiers? Not stunts, mind you, but "classic" stuff we see in movies but > might be considered 'real' in the In Nomine world? maybe ethereal soldiers working for oriental spirits/gods (ethereal henchmen?) would be able to buy servitor attunements that would let them perform funky special moves and stuff (a bit like the schticks in Feng Shui) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:52:40 +1100 From: Chris Rose Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Sigil? At 03:05 PM 31/01/00 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know of any plans for jewelry for it, though -- you'd have to >lobby for that. (If it shows up in jewelry, then it's pretty darn canon. >I mean, how much more canon can you get than etched in metal?) > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ Etched in Metal on a Cannon ? Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels > Frankly, it's usually more > interesting for > >the Animals Servitors to try to deal with the limitations of their > animal > >vessels (as well as exploit their advantages) -- it adds a > definite "flavor" > >to the Word in the game. > > And even if the animal doesn't have human-norm vocalization > abilities, > a sentient being can probably manage some sort of speech that's > more > intelligable than what a non-sentient animal could/would do. > > Which gives the PC the option of coming up with an annoying accent. > O:> You can even take it one step further, and plagarize a page from the Old Star Wars RPG: any player who was a Wookie, when they wanted to talk, had to make a roar / growl (as an aside, the actual sounds from the movie were a combination of Lion and Bear vocalizations). Then the other players had to make a linguistics skill roll to allow the player to translate (or even understand)... So, for IN, let the cat player "Meow" (or whatever) and the have the other players make a perception check. It could be fun flavor. Or it could be even more clunky dice rolling for no adequate reason. - -Daiv ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com she said to sit down soon you will be a father be very afraid - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:41:30 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels >And even if the animal doesn't have human-norm vocalization abilities, >a sentient being can probably manage some sort of speech that's more >intelligable than what a non-sentient animal could/would do. > >Which gives the PC the option of coming up with an annoying accent. O:> Actually it isn't possible to produce enough human sounds with animal breathing aperatus, let alone their vocal boxes, regardless of intelligence. Thus vessels have to be designed to get around this, or have built into them a Corporeal Song of Tongues varient designed to allow them to communicate (or some other supernatural method). Jordi is practical, so I think he would concede to implementing a supernatural method for his angels to communicate to other angels while in there animal forms. I've always just made it part of the choir attunement of each of his angels. While in the form of an animal that they have an affinity with they 'lend' that affinity to any angel (presumably this would workd with a demon or human as well) they talk to. This does of course to lead to humerous situations when his Malakim speak to other angels. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:42:39 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Fighting Styles > Caias Brian Ward wrote: > > That would be a stupid martial art, that expects you to get hit. Most arts > > (with the exception of boxing) teach attack avoidance and redirection. > > I was being somewhat facetious -- but some training regimens do try to > impart toughness on the practitioner. No, I don't know of any martial > art that actually teaches you to "get hit," but some put more emphasis > on blocking and counterattacking (or preemptively attacking) than on > avoidance and redirection. > Depending upon which branch of Jeet Kun Do you look at (though they tend to agree in principle) a major point is the awareness that you're *going* to get hit, eventually, if you do alot of fighting. So one form of attack is to redirect an opponants attact into doing damage to themselves, or minimizing the amount of damage that you take while maximizing the damage done to the opponant. That being said the principle of JKD (generally) is to control the tempo of the fight and "neutralize" your opponant as quickly as possible and let yourself get the heck out of there... back to an onlist topic => The style would probably be suited to a Ofanim (getting away or hitting first is a big one) or Malakim (stomp the crap out them and be aware that your Vessal will be trashed sooner or later) or possibly Seraphim or Elohim (reading the tempo of the conflict). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 15:18:06 PST From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Malakim as team players Well, the actual problem is as follows: First of all, this is a Malakite of War. *He* doesn't really have a problem with killing Soldiers of Hell. BUT: Michael said to him before he left the Groves that he (Michael) expected him (the Malakite) to be the person who kept the group focussed on getting the work done and not on political in-fighting. This, in a group currently composed of a Malakite of War, a Kyriotate of Creation IST Destiny, an Elohite of Lightning, a Mercurian of Creation IST Lighting, and a Soldier of Trade. Uh huh. Right. They understand about the demons, but I *know* they're going to complain about the Soldiers. Especially the Mercurian. Therefore, I was wondering how much slack I had, he could maybe let one live once in awhile to keep the Mercurian (and the Kyriotate) happy. But if not, oh, well ... Janet Anderson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:38:22 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Malakim as team players Mals are heinously annoying in this respect. Not team players at all. I find them the most irritating of the choirs, often more suitable as NPCs. >BUT: Michael said to him before he left the Groves that he (Michael) >expected him (the Malakite) to be the person who kept the group focussed on >getting the work done and not on political in-fighting. This, in a group >currently composed of a Malakite of War, a Kyriotate of Creation IST >Destiny, an Elohite of Lightning, a Mercurian of Creation IST Lighting, and >a Soldier of Trade. Uh huh. Right. Well, give the Mal bonus points if he manages to pull it off somehow... >They understand about the demons, but I *know* they're going to complain >about the Soldiers. Especially the Mercurian. Sure. Well, are any of the Soldiers potentially salvageable? In the sense that they might repent enough to keep them out of Hell? Try this. Throw in one or two brief vignettes -- and they can be *brief* - -- to personalize the Soldiers. Let the angels see one be kind to a little boy and say "you wouldn't want to end up like me", then see another one slap his girlfriend around for "lip". Or overhear one boasting about torturing a captive, while another reacts with violent disgust to the idea of cheating at cards. If you can't fit this into the game otherwise, you could have these things pop up from resonances ("You sense that his noblest action this week was..."), but it is more effective if the PCS can _see_ them -- showing is always better than telling. Even if the Soldiers are all, every one of them, nasty violent fellows who are perfectly ready to kill the PCs, you'd be amazed how readily players will seize on these small points, cheerfully wasting the girlfriend-slapper while agonizing over hurting the one who's nice to little boys. I recently stole a bit from Carl Hiaasen and threw in an NPC demon who liked listening to pirated tapes of 911 calls. I described him leaning back in his chair, sipping a beer and nodding to himself while out of his boombox came the sounds of a woman being assaulted by a knife-wielding prowler while screaming into her cell phone. The PCs nearly dropped everything and went after this minor and (relatively) harmless demon, despite the fact that his boss, a Baron, was actually much more evil and much more dangerous. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:42:45 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Malakim as team players Michael said to him before he left the Groves that he (Michael) >expected him (the Malakite) to be the person who kept the group focussed on >getting the work done and not on political in-fighting. This, in a group >currently composed of a Malakite of War, a Kyriotate of Creation IST >Destiny, an Elohite of Lightning, a Mercurian of Creation IST Lighting, and >a Soldier of Trade. Uh huh. Right. > >They understand about the demons, but I *know* they're going to complain >about the Soldiers. Especially the Mercurian. Alright then he's in charge, if the other's don't like it then their going to have to take it up with him. His Archangel just told him that he was the boss, and that's going to stick. Now if killing the Soldier is going to make the group loose focus then he's not going to do it. Its not worth it. If there is an oppertunity to kill the Soldier and have the group not know about it then the Malakite will take it (remember Malakim can be dirty sons of bitches, without knowledge of their oaths their honor can't be turned against them that easily). The Malakite is not goin to swallow a note of dissonance and show that he isn't up to fufilling the possition Michael put him in just to avoid the whinning of those he's working with. So if the Malakite thinks that their will be complaints but ot any reducction in the group's focus then that Soldier is toast. Of course if the Kyriotate needs a vessel and decides to use the Soldier then the Soldier isn't home anymore and the Malaktie doesn't have to kill it. The Malakite may infact encourage the Kyriotate to use the Soldier as a vessel, espeically if they have the Kyriotate of Destiny Attunement (even without it its pretty useful to have a body that is recognised by agents of hell as one of there own). Also Mercurians aren't inherinently bothered by killing humans, they just can't hurt them themselves. Impudites can't stand humans being killed, Mercurians can sit calmly by and watch a bunch of sinners be cut up by Malakim. An Impudite would turn into a puddle of Discord. Creepy but true. An angel of flowers would not want any violence done, especially against humans (and if they have the Seraph of Flowers attunement they can enforce it). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 02:07:34 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Fighting Styles >And several martial arts include toughing to withstand blows, >intense programs designed to heighten pain thresholds, and how >to tense muscles to withstand blows. Muay Thai and Kyokushinkai karate for example. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:15:50 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Malakim as team players >Also Mercurians aren't inherinently bothered by killing humans, they just >can't hurt them themselves. No, they're usually *bothered* by it. It just isn't dissonant for them. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:51:44 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels At 15:13 -0500 2/2/00, Erich Arendall wrote: >>From: Walter Milliken >>However, the angel in the cat vessel keeps the ability to understand >>languages and respond to them. Frankly, it's usually more interesting for >>the Animals Servitors to try to deal with the limitations of their animal >>vessels (as well as exploit their advantages) -- it adds a definite >>"flavor" >>to the Word in the game. >> > >Great. Now I'd really hate to be a Seraph of Animals... >GM: What do you do? >Seraph: I swim. (If a fish vessel, or "I hop" if a frog vessel) >GM: Okay, now back to the rest of the group... They *can* have human vessels, too. And dolphins fall into their group. ("Look, Dad! Flipper's trying to tell us something!" Yeah, Timmy fell down the well.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:13:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell (Remember, if you're not posting from the address s u b s c ribed to one of the three lists (in_nomine-l, in_nomine-digest, or in_nomine_posters-l, you need to send mail to with the following command in the body of your email message: s*bscribe in_nomine-l your@address.here Where the * has been replaced by a u.) >Reply-To: >From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" >Subject: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell >Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:50:45 -0800 > >On the Malakim topic, I've got a wee bit of question... > >There's a lot of talk (here, and elsewhere) about the differing attitudes >Malakim of different superiors may have towards their oaths... Some Virtues >take 'Evil' in a more strict or loose sense than others, for instance. > >Now, I understand some of this is campaign-specific, but how does this >concept of individual (or at least Word-specific) interpretation of vows fit >in with the dissonance Malakim recieve? > >So, if I have a super-strict Malakite of the Sword, for instance, even >though he kills anything that so much as *smells* like a demon, does he not >actually take dissonance until he crosses the limit of, say, a Malakite of >Flowers? Or is that the relationship between vows and individual Malakim are >more specific, so that my mythical Sword Malakite takes dissonance more >easily than the Flowers Malakite. > >This means, possibly, that strict Malakim almost never get dissonance, and >the 'soft' Malakim (like Virtues of Flowers, Creation, Wind, and Destiny) >rack up dissonance like there's no tommorow. Of course, seeing as they're >upholding their Superior's philosophy, the 'soft' Archangel may remove some >of this extra dissonance. > >Or, (as I, currently playing a Malakite of Creation, would love) is that the >relationship between Vow and Dissonance is based not just on the text of the >vow, but on what the Malak meant when he swore it. If this is so, then a >Malakite of Creation (Or flowers, or wind, or destiny...) would have a much >more liberal intent when he swears his vow. > >Thoughts and comments on this ramble? > >Thanks, >-Robert > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:06:32 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels At 17:41 -0500 2/2/00, Tim Groth wrote: >>And even if the animal doesn't have human-norm vocalization abilities, >>a sentient being can probably manage some sort of speech that's more >>intelligable than what a non-sentient animal could/would do. >> >>Which gives the PC the option of coming up with an annoying accent. O:> > >Actually it isn't possible to produce enough human sounds with animal >breathing aperatus, let alone their vocal boxes, regardless of >intelligence. Certainly not normal human speech, but intelligible *communication*. At the very least, most animals have *some* sort of vocal apparatus that could be used for the angelic equivalent of Morse code. Then there's playing "20 Questions" and other strategies, not to mention uses of body language. ("Look, Timmy, Lassie wants us to follow her.") >Jordi is practical, so I think he would concede to implementing a >supernatural method for his angels to communicate to other angels while in >there animal forms. I've always just made it part of the choir attunement >of each of his angels. While in the form of an animal that they have an >affinity with they 'lend' that affinity to any angel (presumably this would >workd with a demon or human as well) they talk to. This is certainly possible, though I don't think I'd want to go that far. I think it's much more likely that Jordi would devise some sort of semi-universal language of signals and body language that most species could manage, and then imbue all his angels with skill in that language. Other angels could then learn to interpret it. This seems much more in keeping with Jordi's isolationism, and such an artificial language would be in many ways closer to normal animal communication than fixing it so his Servitors could use human languages in animal form. This way, angels of other Superiors would have to learn something akin to the languages of animals to communicate with his Servitors, thus promoting their understanding of other animal communications, and thus supporting his Word. Another alternative would be a Numinous Corpus: Vocal Cords Song, used by his Servitors when they *must* communicate in human tongues while in animal form. NC is much better for this than the Tongues Songs, since it has an extended duration. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:20:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim as team players At 3:18 PM -0800 2/2/00, Janet Anderson wrote: >Well, the actual problem is as follows: First of all, this is a Malakite of >War. *He* doesn't really have a problem with killing Soldiers of Hell. > >BUT: Michael said to him before he left the Groves that he (Michael) >expected him (the Malakite) to be the person who kept the group focussed on >getting the work done and not on political in-fighting.[...] >Therefore, I was wondering how much slack I had, he could maybe let one live >once in awhile to keep the Mercurian (and the Kyriotate) happy. >But if not, oh, well ... Ahhhhhhh. Okay. In such a case, I'd suggest focusing on the concept of: "This guy is pretty scummy. You want him to live? Okay. He can live. If he's not doing evil. You keep him out of trouble, I keep my sword out of his liver. In fact, wouldn't the Kyriotate like to _possess_ Mr. Sold-My-Soul-And-All-I-Got-Was-This-Lousy-Force...? That would keep him out of trouble..." He sort-of has orders that would cover letting the occasional human live, but it would probably make him pretty unhappy a lot of the time. Still, if he can toss some of the better ones to the rest of the team to keep them happy -- _and_ especially if they manage to get the human to forsake evil -- he can probably live. If the human doesn't keep out of trouble, though, a private little kerchop would probably be in order. After all, if the others don't _know_... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:12:02 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Malakim as team players At 18:18 -0500 2/2/00, Janet Anderson wrote: >They understand about the demons, but I *know* they're going to complain >about the Soldiers. Especially the Mercurian. > >Therefore, I was wondering how much slack I had, he could maybe let one live >once in awhile to keep the Mercurian (and the Kyriotate) happy. There's no real reason why either the Mercurian or the Kyrio should have problems with killing Hellsworn, except maybe the fact that both are Creationers and therefore more inclined towards creative (and possibly less violent) solutions. Mercurians aren't really opposed to violence, per se, but to doing it themselves. And Kyrios normally only worry about violence done to their hosts. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:24:31 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell >>From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" >>So, if I have a super-strict Malakite of the Sword, for instance, even >>though he kills anything that so much as *smells* like a demon, does he not >>actually take dissonance until he crosses the limit of, say, a Malakite of >>Flowers? Or is that the relationship between vows and individual Malakim are >>more specific, so that my mythical Sword Malakite takes dissonance more >>easily than the Flowers Malakite. I don't think this is the case -- they probably take dissonance about equally. >>This means, possibly, that strict Malakim almost never get dissonance, and >>the 'soft' Malakim (like Virtues of Flowers, Creation, Wind, and Destiny) >>rack up dissonance like there's no tommorow. Of course, seeing as they're >>upholding their Superior's philosophy, the 'soft' Archangel may remove some >>of this extra dissonance. No -- I think it's more that Malakim attuned to the "softer" Words interpret the wording of that oath in a different way. They're *still* going to be gung-ho about advancing the cause of Heaven in the War, but they fight evil in different ways, and sometimes disagree on exactly what *is* evil. A Malakite of War might see nothing bad in a human who worked as a butcher, while a Malakite of Animals might see the same person as totally heinous. Likewise, a Malakite of Flowers might see a human who gloried in killing in battle as evil, while a Virtue of War might see that as a positive thing. These will generally be fringe cases, though -- for the most part, most Malakim will agree whether any given individual is "evil" or not. They're more likely to disagree on the exact response to that evil, though. >>Or, (as I, currently playing a Malakite of Creation, would love) is that the >>relationship between Vow and Dissonance is based not just on the text of the >>vow, but on what the Malak meant when he swore it. If this is so, then a >>Malakite of Creation (Or flowers, or wind, or destiny...) would have a much >>more liberal intent when he swears his vow. I don't think it's intent as much as interpretation. They all mean that they want to eliminate evil; but they differ somewhat on how and when, and occasionally on who. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:38:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell >From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" >On the Malakim topic, I've got a wee bit of question... > >There's a lot of talk (here, and elsewhere) about the differing attitudes >Malakim of different superiors may have towards their oaths... Some Virtues >take 'Evil' in a more strict or loose sense than others, for instance. > >Now, I understand some of this is campaign-specific, but how does this >concept of individual (or at least Word-specific) interpretation of vows fit >in with the dissonance Malakim recieve? I would say it depends utterly on the interpretation -- but that the GM _MUST_ step in to keep it from getting utterly silly. The oaths can stretch for some characters, but even the most laid-back of Malakim is going to be a little twitchy around someone who isn't moving toward non-evil. They may hide this as well as an Elohite, but it should be there, along with the knowledge that if the "evil" doesn't go away, the blackwing is going to bash its evil little head in. >[...] Or is that the relationship between vows and individual Malakim are >more specific, so that my mythical Sword Malakite takes dissonance more >easily than the Flowers Malakite. This is probably how I'd do it -- but making very sure that the oath actually meant something, and wasn't just a "thing that never gives any problems." Or, to quote from the Liber Servitorum Designer's Article (available if you have a Pyramid subscription, plug, plug) regarding a Word-bound Malakite of Creation: "Her third oath means she never assumes "demon = evil." With a complete reading of someone's honor (check digit 6), she'll act -- but that's enough information that it's not a snap judgment. She'd rather take the time to get Infernals redeemed (or humans saved) instead of just killing them. However, this does not mean she's adverse to terrifying those who deserve it; it takes her a little while, but she can entomb someone in earth or stone, and then discuss how much she'd like to carve them -- unless they do as she's asking. And if they're really irredeemable . . . she'll kill them. Malakim are like that." Ideally, it would be a case of "really nice, really laid back," and just as some demon scum is going, "A real sucker," he discovers that he's trying to talk with his throat gushing blood because the "sucker" Malakite who gave him all those chances just ripped him up from behind. It's a tightrope, for both the player and the GM. "Softer" Malakim should probably be more at risk for dissonance, in that if they let someone live, and that person _doesn't_ change quickly enough, they'll see the evil results. But it makes them a bit more flexible, at least in the short term. They should pay for this in angst. O;> As another aside, all of the above depends on the contrast and brightness of your campaign. The lower the contrast (and higher the brightness), the more likely it is that there _are_ redeemable demons and save-able Hellsworn, and therefore some Malakim _can_ slay evil by slaying the _evil_ and letting the _person_ live. If you have very black-and-white demons-and-angels, then only the most idealistic Virtues of Flowers are likely to try to give Hell's minions a second chance -- and they'll be racking up dissonance a lot when their hope/trust is betrayed. And as a third aside, while this is how I view it, it _is_ a bit late at night, I might not be entirely clear, and GMs get to run their universes the way they want to -- players of Malakim should discuss this with their GMs, and vice versa. Fourth aside -- a good PC who _does_ roleplay being distressed and a bit twitchy while trying to slay the evil and not the person would get more slack than someone who tries to just blow off the "slay evil" part "'cause, like, I serve Eli, man, and he's one of the cool, laid back Archangels. So I don't hafta kill this cool demon at all and I don't get dissonant." [Anyone gives you this line, either have their Boss give them a frog vessel, or tell 'em, "Fine -- but if this guy does any evil, whether you know about it or not, the Symphony will go BAM and you'll be dissonant. Better get cracking on the redemption, eh?"] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:41:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell At 11:24 PM -0500 2/2/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >These will generally be fringe cases, though -- for the most part, most >Malakim will agree whether any given individual is "evil" or not. They're >more likely to disagree on the exact response to that evil, though. Right, right -- this is what I meant to say, mostly. O:> "Slaying evil" is still the point -- but _how_ it's slain is the part where you can get "laid back" or not. (I.e., the response is different; the belief in whether someone is _evil_ or not, isn't very different. Except at the fringes where you get the "demon = evil, all the time" attitude.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:08:18 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Band Music It recently got established IMC that Djinn tend to love country music. Just popped out of the campaign... I had a badass heavy metal Calabite rock-star villain who wandered around with an entourage of three Djinn-roadies (who he constantly and ruthlessly abused). A PC was impersonating one of the roadies, and found that whenever their boss wasn't around, the roadies would fire up his elaborate sound system, pop out his thrash-metal and hardcore CDs, and settle down for a morose and obsessive evening of listening to... well, Tammy Wynette. It seemed appropriate, and the players liked it, so it's turned into campaign canon; the Bright Lilim PC now remembers Djinn in Hell slouching around listening to Hank Williams and developing terrible, all-consuming secret crushes on Dolly... Which leads me to a question: what other music, if any, might particular Bands favor? [Note that this is NOT the forbidden "music to play IN by" thread! I'm not touching that one. But _within_ a campaign, just as a throwaway touch, what would the demons like?] Calabim, easy peasy, heavy metal, hardcore, gangsta rap, and anything else loud and violent. Impudites, easy listening. Barry Manilow, Barbra Streisand, light rock. Maybe some Elvis Costello or R.E.M for the cooler ones, but on the whole they'd like music that was *accessible*... you don't want your humans feeling left out, after all. Maybe some show tunes. Djinn, as mentioned, country all the way. After this it gets tougher. Shedim, um. Weird atonal discordant stuff? Balseraphs, music that's *fake* somehow. Ad jingles? Or, mmm, maybe music that can be misinterpreted... I can see a Bal listening to Dylan lyrics and nodding ("Man, that's so deep. Hey, you know that Dylan was the jester in 'American Pie', right?"). Lilim. No idea. Habbalah. Um, Radiohead? Cowboy Junkies? Billie Holliday? Thoughts? Doug M. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1520 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.