From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 3 16:06:31 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06027 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:06:30 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA16444 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:02:21 -0600 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:02:21 -0600 Message-Id: <200002032202.QAA16444@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1521 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 3 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1521 In this digest: Re: IN> Band Music Re: IN> Band Music Re: IN> Band Music Re: IN> Band Music Re: IN> Band Music IN> Re: Jordi and Butchery (was: Malakim and Soldiers of Hell) Re: IN> Band Music Re: IN> Band Music Re: IN> Band Music Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Re: IN> Band Music IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Band Music Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell Talk to the animals Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Band Music RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Re: Jordi and Butchery (was: Malakim and Soldiers of Hell) Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: Talk to the animals Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels IN> Vessels & Hosts & Speech (Re: Jordi's Animal Vessels) Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels IN> Cherub of Laurance. Re: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:22:42 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Band Music - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Muir" > Balseraphs, music that's *fake* somehow. Ad jingles? Or, mmm, maybe music > that can be misinterpreted... I can see a Bal listening to Dylan lyrics and > nodding ("Man, that's so deep. Hey, you know that Dylan was the jester in > 'American Pie', right?"). I could see Bals being into classical music. It would both reinforce their aristocratic self-image, and would have the misinterpretation behind it. ("Mozart makes you smarter... Oh, look at what _I_ have in the CD Player!") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:43:03 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Band Music I peg Balseraphs as classical fans, and maybe pop managers (who manufacture bands based on a formula for success). Djinn and country music I like that, its humerous. Calabim would definetly like anything violent, as you mentioned. I also had a strange moment in which they were just blowing things up with their resonance and head banging, and the players were covering their ears at the disturbance trying to figure out what the Calabim were doing. Then suddenly one realized, they were jamming. I'm also not sure what Habbalah listen to, anything that invokes biblical images and has a synthetic sound probably appeals to them (the only time it came up in one of my campeigns was a Habbalah leading a christian electric rock band). Lilim, they'd like music festivals and probably hate ticket master. I played in a campeign where we always knew this one Shedite was around because he palyed this damned irritating song 'Jump for Satan' by some no talent metal band. Imagine fast bad guitars with occasional incoherent screaming and the barely coherent words 'Jump for Satan' being spoken every now and again. The Malakite of the group nearly went mad trying to destroy his relic cd and relic stero. Impudites usually have a definete taste to match their Roles (or that they work into their Roles well). I don't think they would try and fit in with local humans preference, they make the humans like their music. On a related note does anyone else give members of Choirs/Bands bonuses on playing the instrument they affiliate with? On a somewhat less related note has anyone else used the human song is actually a Song (preferably if its a secret one or a new one)? I'm going to use it and I want to know how it turned out for any who tried it. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 23:42:21 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Band Music At 12:08 AM 2/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > >It recently got established IMC that Djinn tend to love country music. >Which leads me to a question: what other music, if any, might particular >Bands favor? > Impudites: Muzak. Any music which tends to fade into background; Bach or early romantics, Herb Alpert, etc. Anything to relax the humans. Balseraphs: Advertising jingles, musical show tunes, and string chamber quartets. Calabim: No particular type, so long as it's destructive of something. Cals of Factions LOVE opera. }:-{D Habbalah: Clear jazz, the kind where all musical rules are thrown out. Also any group or individual who somehow becomes a hit without possessing the least iota of musical talent. Shedim: Percussion. STOMP especially. Also rap- Shedim often take credit for getting people to commit crimes and then have them blame it on rap songs. Lilim: What would you like to hear, dear? (Although 'Money' is probably a very popular song with Lilith. Also, old 'Negro spirituals,' despite the holy references; many are the Free Lilim brought before the Game for humming 'We Shall Overcome...' Redneck ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 05:50:35 GMT From: "Trey Reilly" Subject: Re: IN> Band Music >Calabim would definetly like anything violent, as you mentioned. And all classical music that features cannons. - -Trey ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:15:20 +1100 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Band Music > Habbalah [...]: Also any group or individual who somehow becomes a hit without possessing the > least iota of musical talent. So what you mean is most of the modern Super-pop, ahem... all the generic Boy "Bands" *spit* and the like :). Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:32:18 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: IN> Re: Jordi and Butchery (was: Malakim and Soldiers of Hell) >A Malakite of War might see nothing bad in a human who worked as a butcher, >while a Malakite of Animals might see the same person as totally heinous. On the contrary, those serving animals would be aware that it is part of the natural order for one animal to eat another, and as humans are nothing more than a very clever animal (which God has unfortunately singled out for special consideration, for some inexplicable reason), then a human eating another animal shouldn't bother a servitor of Jordi anymore than a wolf doing so. However, humans raising animals in terrible conditions would bother them, as this is unjust and cruel exploitation of other species. If the animals led relatively normal lives and didn't suffer until they were slaughtered, then everyone could coexist in harmony, except maybe the Angel of Tofu, a powerful servitor of Novalis... - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:45:31 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> Band Music On the angelic side, I'd like to contribute a few: Seraphim: Prefer acoustic music that hasn't been artificially amplified, mixed, and otherwise altered. Classical generally suffices. Cherubim: They always KNOW when you accidentally scratch their CDs, and boy do they get peeved about it... Ofanim: Most anything over 100 beats per minute is fine, though stuff you can thrash and headbang to will do for some. Elohim: Listen to all sorts of music in turn, noting how much of it is based on emotional appeal, focusing particularly strongly on the emotion of love, though a notable (and rather loud) subset of modern music appears to be primarily a vent for rage. Most fascinating. Malakim: Mars from the Planet's Suite comes to mind. Kyriotates: They listen to multiple types of music simultaneously. Mercurians: Always tune the office radio to whatever their coworkers would like to listen to. - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 01:52:35 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Band Music - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Santiago" > Seraphim: Prefer acoustic music that hasn't been artificially > amplified, mixed, and otherwise altered. Classical generally > suffices. But they won't listen to "Chant," because we "just can't seem to get it right." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:53:12 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Band Music >From: Tim Groth >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Lilim Boy bands. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:11:40 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:41:30 -0700From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels >And even if the animal doesn't have human-norm vocalization abilities, >a sentient being can probably manage some sort of speech that's more >intelligable than what a non-sentient animal could/would do.> >Which gives the PC the option of coming up with an annoying accent.O:> Moral of the story: if you've just _got_ to work on Jordi's pack on something, and it's willing to give you a liason, insist on an Ofanite: "Polly want a cracker?" "No, but I _do_ want a look at the map, you condenscending imitator of humanity. Turn here... and WATCH OUT FOR THE RACCOON IN THE ROAD! Why we have to use this polluting, wasteful piece of Vapulan-inspired machinery in the first place is beyond me..."* You get the idea. Morgan Kyriotate of Destiny *On second thought, maybe not. * *If I remember my __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 03:36:37 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell >Janet Anderson wrote: >> >> I know that Malakim can't let demons live, except under really limited >> circumstances such as Superior's orders, but what about Soldiers of Hell? >> Can a Malakite choose to leave a Soldier of Hell alive if he has a really >> good reason (after all, it would have to be a really good reason for him to >> *want* to leave one alive), or do they come under the blanket prohibition of >> his oath? > > The oath is not to allow an EVIL to live. If Soldier is >evil (or even a regular human), they fall under the oath. The real question is who get to decide what evil is. The GM? Naturally but he don't have to tell the PC in advance. So now the Mal of Novalis and the Mal of Dominic are arguing yet again. The Judgment Mal wants to kill anyone who commits the smallest act of evil be they Angel, Demon, Human, or Ethereal (Oh joy! an EPG!) but the Flowers Mal thinks that they should forgive and forget while persuading the evil to change their ways. Who's right? I say both, and to look to the Word of an AA/Angel to see what evil really is to that Malakim. > Destroying the 'greater evil' is, of course, more important. >The Malakite says nothing about timing, just results. Use a >soldier and then waste him? No problem! Losing an opportunity >to destroy a 'lesser evil' in order to get a greater is regrettable. >Clever/skilled Malakim will try to work out a way to get both. Only if you buy into the concept of 'greater evil'. Yves don't seem to think there is a distinction between a minor destiny and an earth-shaking destiny, as he pursues both with equal gusto. > 2) The Soldier's death would endanger other people whose welfare was > important, such as innocent civilians, hostages, a Cherub's attuned, etc. > This is trickier. Causing evil in order to eradicate >evil is a no-no... unless it's another 'lesser of two evils' >things. (E.G. The demon is holding an innocent human hostage, >but I may never get as good a chance at wasting him than right >now. I think that rocket launcher is appropriate.) The >personality of the Superior is important in these circumstances. Ummm... In what universe is 'causing evil to eradicate evil a no-no'? Not cannon IN. Janus changes for better or worse, Malakim don't suffer an evil to live when it's their choice. Ever. Unless they want to eat dissonance. The war is about selfishness vs. selflessness not some sort of clear cut white hats versus black hats. > This is one of the reasons that Malakim are so feared >by Hell. They don't make excuses and they are driven to fulfill >their duties regardless of cost to themselves... or others. > I can EASILY imagine a snivelling demon that is feeding >a Malakite information to make him useful enough to keep alive... >for now. As long as the demon is marginally more useful alive >in getting rid of evils, the Malakite is almost forced to keep >him alive. But should his usefulness ever decrease... But He can't "suffer an evil to live" that sure sounds like dissonance if the demon is evil. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:48:31 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim dissonance & Undead vessels First of all, my apologies to the mailing list for the HTML format, I got mixed up. > Star Wars RPG: any player who was a Wookie, when they wanted to > talk, had to make a roar / growl > the other players had to make a linguistics skill roll to allow the > player to translate (or even understand)... Actually, I do play Star Wars as well, and my astrogator is a Wookie. I do have to roll linguistic every time he "says" something, and this lead us to a funny situation during the last adventure: Human: "I think we'd better cooperate..." Wookie: "WOOOOOOOHOOO!!!" (meaning "No, take the heavy blaster behind me, we can make it!" Human (understanding "Ok") surrenders Wookie opens fire... > So, for IN, let the cat player "Meow" (or whatever) and the have the > other players make a perception check. It could be fun flavor. Or it > could be even more clunky dice rolling for no adequate reason. I think I'll go for this one, it could be funny... but... shouldn't a linguistic test be rolled on Intelligence?? Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:36:40 -0500 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Band Music Douglas Muir wrote: > > Which leads me to a question: what other music, if any, > might particular Bands favor? Hm. There was an Impudite of the Game IMC who liked early Schoenberg, Anton Webern, Berg, and other atonalist and serialist composers, and who decorated her apartment with prints of paintings by Mondrian and other neo-Plasticists. Basically, she found the idea of an entirely arbitrary formal order intensely comforting. I think it's probably a per-demon preference, though -- all of the other demons of the Game though she was very strange. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:22:41 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Where in canon does it say that Servitors of Animals can't talk in their animal vessels? I know it's been proposed on the list, I think by Elizabeth. But I thought that was just an idea, and it's not a very good one. I don't believe it's written anywhere in canon. I didn't write anything about that in the section on vessels in the GMG, and if there was to be something special about the vessels Jordi creates, it should have been mentioned there. I think it would be foolish for Jordi to "disempower" vessels that way. Sure, it's not "natural" for animals to speak. It's also not natural for them to use celestial resonances, attunements, and Songs. Or for a hamster to have a Strength of 10. Or to do most other things a typical Servitor of Animals is likely to be doing, even while staying in an animal vessel. We don't need to worry about how it's biologically possible for animals to speak. Animal vessels don't have special vocal equipment; they speak because it's a divine (or infernal) power. Call it magic if you like, but it's not biological. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:04:00 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Band Music Balseraphs: Grand opera. Very aristocratic, and all done by people playing make-believe. Djinn: Country, oh yes, and blues. Calabim: Hard rock, natch. Habbalah: More blues, and fire-and-brimstone gospel. Shedim: The content varies, but the CDs are all pirated... Lilim: Torch songs. Impudites: Muzak & ad jingles. - - - Seraphim: I like the pure-acoustic-no-mixing idea. Cherubim: Sentimental favorites, many dating from the Victorian period, such as "Auld Lang Syne" or "Home, Sweet Home." Or country, only they don't do it secretly, the way djinn do. Ophanim: Anything fast. '50s songs about cruisin' in a Chevy. Jitterbug. Strauss's "Perpetuum Mobile." Elohim: As someone else said, anything, but then they sit back and analyze it. Malakim: John Philips Sousa. Kyriotates: Mixed-genre stuff, like "Bach meets the Beatles" or (at the other extreme) dogs barking "Jingle Bells." Failing that, several different radio stations listened to with several different ears. Mercurians: A capella stuff. Numbers from musicals or opera. Ballads. Stuff that tells a story. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:26:49 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels > We don't need to worry about how it's biologically possible for animals > to speak. Animal vessels don't have special vocal equipment; they speak > because it's a divine (or infernal) power. Call it magic if you like, > but it's not biological. I, uh, always thought Kyriotates could talk in their animal vessels. That's how it's been played for years, and I've never seen anything to the contrary. Wasn't it established that they could in the Feast of Blades adventure, or was that just someone's rendition of the IN session that they played of that game that I'm remembering? - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:29:45 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell In a message dated 2/3/00 4:28:50 AM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: >Ideally, it would be a case of "really nice, really laid back," and >just as some demon scum is going, "A real sucker," he discovers that >he's trying to talk with his throat gushing blood because the "sucker" >Malakite who gave him all those chances just ripped him up from behind. > > This reminds me of something that almost came up in my now sadly defunct campaign. A Christian Malakite of Sword (as a note of explanation, angels in my campaign had to choose which monotheist religion they followed) was working with a soldier who was a lapsed Roman Catholic. The game never got that far, but as the Soldier drifted further and further hellward, the Malakite complained, "One of these days I'm going to spit him on my sword and as he hangs there dying, I'm going to tell him 'Remember your Baptism.'" It kind of creeped me out at the time, but that's certainly in character for a Malakite. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:54:17 -0500 From: Mason Kramer Subject: Talk to the animals Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels > I, uh, always thought Kyriotates could talk in their animal vessels. > That's how it's been played for years, and I've never seen anything to the > contrary. > > Wasn't it established that they could in the Feast of Blades adventure, or > was that just someone's rendition of the IN session that they played of > that game that I'm remembering? From the main book, p. 48: "Vessels in animal shape look like normal animals, but they have been modified so they can talk -- after all, the celestial may need to communicate!" What people do in their own campaigns is, of course, their own affair... Mason "*Never* play 'Go Fish' with a Lilim." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 00 10:34:08 -0600 From: Planewalker Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels >We don't need to worry about how it's biologically possible for animals >to speak. Animal vessels don't have special vocal equipment; they speak >because it's a divine (or infernal) power. Call it magic if you like, >but it's not biological. My question would be, "Why *would* Jordi let his petitioners talk? Would Jordi actually believe that it would be important for his vessels to communicate in a *human* language? To him, humans are just another animal, no more important than any other. So why would he decide it's important for animals to know human speech? You may say it's because it's easier to communicate with other corporeal celestials, but if everyone knows the angelic language, why bother? There's also the ethereal song of tongues, which you might be able to get placed on a vessel. I can see why it would be easier in a game session, but I can also understand why Jordi, in the end, really wouldn't care whether or not his animals can speak. Planewalker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:37:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels Planewalker wrote: > My question would be, "Why *would* Jordi let his petitioners talk? Jordi seems to me to be one of the least playable AAs in the game, and infects his servitors with this, to boot. It seems to me that, if the GM runs Jordi as social enough to work with other AAs at all regularly, then he will probably give his servitors vessels that can, one way or another, communicate with other AA's servitors, including their non-celestial ones. On the other hand, if Jordi is so isolationist that he doesn't want his folk to work with other AA's folk, then running into a Jordite (Georgian?) would be a freak occurence, and difficulty communicating is reasonable. Personally, were I to run Jordi, I would relax him a good bit. Yeah, he grouses a lot about human arrogance and is one of the AAs that doesn't blench at high death rates, and he doesn't show up at Council, but his folk are busy working on the environmentalism and humane-treatment fronts -- and even busy in the sciences, encouraging humans to understand their fellow creatures and how close they are. Charles Darwin, Soldier of Jordi? I think all that is even canonical. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:43:48 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels > My question would be, "Why *would* Jordi let his petitioners talk? Would > Jordi actually believe that it would be important for his vessels to > communicate in a *human* language? To him, humans are just another > animal, no more important than any other. So why would he decide it's > important for animals to know human speech? Because it's a game. In Nomine is not real life. It is not even close to real life. No where, anywhere, in the book does it say, "This game is supposed to model reality." It's a game, and like all games, it's supposed to be fun. I can't honestly see how telling your players who have chosen to play Kyriotates that they suddenly can't _game_ anymore is considered fun, because gaming is all about communication. If a rule or a ruling adds frustration and removes fun, then it should go away. Sometimes I feel like In Nomine needs the disclaimer that Nephilim has on it's very first page: "This game is not real." - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:16:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Band Music At 10:43 PM -0700 2/2/00, Tim Groth wrote: >Lilim, they'd like music festivals and probably hate ticket master. Lilim go to LilithFair. To suck up to Mother if for no other reason. (Does _Lilith_ like that? Or even attend? No one's paid enough for the answer.) [Beth restrains herself from mentioning some _very_ Lilim songs on her tapes, because that would be riding the razor edge of "songs to play IN by" or "IN inspirational music" and _that_ thread is just evil. Email if you _want_ to know.] Kyriotates like... _ALL_ music! At once! (Well, not all in the same place, but via several hosts.) Cherubim like any easy-listening music that has to do with protecting, loving, and guarding. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:25:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell At 3:36 AM -0600 2/3/00, Trent wrote: >>Janet Anderson wrote: >> Destroying the 'greater evil' is, of course, more important. [...] > >Only if you buy into the concept of 'greater evil'. Yves don't seem to think >there is a distinction between a minor destiny and an earth-shaking destiny, >as he pursues both with equal gusto. Ah, but that's whether there's a "greater good" or not. In such a case, a Destiny Malakite might weigh, "Okay, which path might lead to _more_ humans being interfered with, or actively redirected from their destinys?" In fact, IIRC Destiny's dissonance conditions, he'd better be thinking that way... >But He can't "suffer an evil to live" that sure sounds like dissonance if >the demon is evil. Only if he lets the demon go, really -- and if he's taking out _greater_ evil by letting the demon live. (If you can take down a Word-bound Duke, from information gotten from this little 7-Force sniveling creature that can barely tie its shoelaces on a good day... One is competant evil, the other is incompetant evil; which would _you_ rather take out first, hm? Besides, the incompetent evil won't be able to run away effectively.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:25:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels At 8:22 AM -0800 2/3/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Where in canon does it say that Servitors of Animals can't talk in their >animal vessels? > >I know it's been proposed on the list, I think by Elizabeth. Not me -- that was Walter. I think it's something to _consider_, certainly (and I don't think it would necessarily be crippling if adopted), but I don't recall a canon place for it either. At 10:34 AM -0600 2/3/00, Planewalker wrote: >You may say it's because it's easier to communicate with other corporeal >celestials, but if everyone knows the angelic language, why bother? Can't speak angelic in the corporeal realm unless you've got the appropriate Distinction of War. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:52:31 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels >From: Planewalker >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > > >We don't need to worry about how it's biologically possible for animals > >to speak. Animal vessels don't have special vocal equipment; they speak > >because it's a divine (or infernal) power. Call it magic if you like, > >but it's not biological. > >My question would be, "Why *would* Jordi let his petitioners talk? Would >Jordi actually believe that it would be important for his vessels to >communicate in a *human* language? That sounds fair to me. I'd always assumed that animal vessels couldn't talk. That's the downside of having an animal vessel; you can always arrange to meet colleagues in the Marches if you need to discuss something, or learn the Ethereal Song of Tongues. IME, PCs who take an animal vessel usually have it as a spare anyway, and Kyrios can possess humans if they really need the use of a mouth. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:55:40 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Jordi and Butchery (was: Malakim and Soldiers of Hell) At 1:32 -0500 2/3/00, Santiago wrote: >>A Malakite of War might see nothing bad in a human who worked as a butcher, >>while a Malakite of Animals might see the same person as totally heinous. > > On the contrary, those serving animals would be aware that it >is part of the natural order for one animal to eat another, and as >humans are nothing more than a very clever animal (which God has >unfortunately singled out for special consideration, for some >inexplicable reason), then a human eating another animal shouldn't >bother a servitor of Jordi anymore than a wolf doing so. Agreed, but the way meat animals are killed is generally considered very cruel by the hardcore animal rights people (who I would assume to be reflecting Jordi's viewpoint). It's one thing to hunt an animal for meat and kill it cleanly; it's another to do it as a production-line business. Or so I read it. Perhaps I should have said "slaughterhouse manager" to make it more clear-cut. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:05:55 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels At 11:22 -0500 2/3/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Where in canon does it say that Servitors of Animals can't talk in their >animal vessels? > >I know it's been proposed on the list, I think by Elizabeth. But I >thought that was just an idea, and it's not a very good one. I don't >believe it's written anywhere in canon. It did show up in the GURPS IN section on Jordi, I think. It's more important to detail in GURPS, though, since it actually affects point values and such. Personally, I think it's perfectly consistent with Jordi's character. Admittedly, it makes Servitors of Animals harder to play, but this is only a minor issue compared to some of the others that arise with them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:13:29 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels At 11:43 -0500 2/3/00, Emily Dresner wrote: >I can't honestly see how telling your players who have chosen to play >Kyriotates that they suddenly can't _game_ anymore is considered fun, >because gaming is all about communication. If a rule or a ruling adds >frustration and removes fun, then it should go away. If your players are never frustrated, I'd be *very* surprised -- part of the GM's job is to frustrate players. Just not *too* much. Frankly, the fact that Kyrios can't speak easily in animal vessels is one of the few things that balances them -- they can be in a lot of places at once, but generally can communicate easily in only one. It also encourages a lot of creativity about how to communicate critical information when the Kyrio doesn't have a human host handy, or can't afford Forces to take one. It's worked out fairly well in my games. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:22:44 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels At 14:05 -0500 2/3/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >It did show up in the GURPS IN section on Jordi, I think. It's more >important to detail in GURPS, though, since it actually affects point values >and such. I just checked, and it is indeed set up this way. However, in GURPS, this restriction also makes the vessel substantially cheaper in point cost, which is a reasonable tradeoff. In Nomine GMs might want to charge less than normal for Jordi's animal vessels, if they're not able to speak human languages effectively. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:53:07 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels >From: Walter Milliken >It also encourages a lot of creativity about how to communicate critical >information when the Kyrio doesn't have a human host handy, or can't >afford Forces to take one. It's worked out fairly well in my games. > > ...Until the Kyrio and comrades learn morse code and then you have a kitty communicating in longs and shorts. :) - -Erich S. Arendall ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 03 Feb 2000 14:55:52 -0500 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: Talk to the animals Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels >>>>> "MK" == Mason Kramer writes: >> I, uh, always thought Kyriotates could talk in their animal vessels. >> That's how it's been played for years, and I've never seen anything to the >> contrary. MK> From the main book, p. 48: MK> "Vessels in animal shape look like normal animals, but they have been MK> modified so they can talk -- after all, the celestial may need to MK> communicate!" Animal vessels, yes, but not animal hosts. I seem to recall that it says in the main book that "Parrots are ok, dogs are very hard to understand, is right out". In most environments, it's easy enough for a Kyriotate to find a crow to talk through, I should think. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:32:56 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell all this talk of Malakim and Innocents has reminded me of a great line I gave a player once. I don't allow Malakim as PCs, but when the groups plays their angel characters (they alternate with their demons over the same timeline, sometimes overlapping, but never quite meeting) they often get Malakim assistance, either as a one man operative or calling in a Malakim Hit Squad. anyway, last time they called in the black wings they had tracked down some demons who had set up their basecamp in a community center... ..so the Malakite blew the whole place up. The players were horrified and questioned the Malakite. He replied, "If they go to Hell, they were evil and deserved punishment. If they ascend to Heaven, they have received the greatest reward for their honor." you can tell I turn the contrast and brightness down... - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still love me." -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:23:38 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels In a message dated 2/3/00 11:56:05 AM Central Standard Time, j_hart@hotmail.com writes: << >My question would be, "Why *would* Jordi let his petitioners talk? Would >Jordi actually believe that it would be important for his vessels to >communicate in a *human* language? >> I don't remember where, but I nearly almost definitely remember reading something along the lines of "Animal Vessels are modified to allow human speech, but Kyrio animal hosts don't get that." (definately not verbatim) I seem to recall some line about parrots and other similar birds being great for speech, dogs could bark out a few words but would be garbled, etc. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:44:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Vessels & Hosts & Speech (Re: Jordi's Animal Vessels) At 4:23 PM -0500 2/3/00, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/3/00 11:56:05 AM Central Standard Time, >j_hart@hotmail.com writes: [...] >I don't remember where, but I nearly almost definitely remember reading >something along the lines of "Animal Vessels are modified to allow human >speech, but Kyrio animal hosts don't get that." (definately not verbatim) Vessels and speech are on p. 48, in the box. Kyrios and host-speech are on p. 103. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:37:20 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels At 14:53 -0500 2/3/00, Erich Arendall wrote: >>From: Walter Milliken >>It also encourages a lot of creativity about how to communicate critical >>information when the Kyrio doesn't have a human host handy, or can't >>afford Forces to take one. It's worked out fairly well in my games. > >...Until the Kyrio and comrades learn morse code and then you have a kitty >communicating in longs and shorts. :) Even that's slow enough to be troublesome. ("What's that, Fluffy? T-h-e-r-e's s-o-m-e-o-n-e b-e-h-URK!" ) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:47:57 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's Animal Vessels At 11:37 -0500 2/3/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Jordi seems to me to be one of the least playable AAs in the game, >and infects his servitors with this, to boot. It seems to me that, >if the GM runs Jordi as social enough to work with other AAs at all >regularly, then he will probably give his servitors vessels that >can, one way or another, communicate with other AA's servitors, >including their non-celestial ones. Agreed. >On the other hand, if Jordi is so isolationist that he doesn't want >his folk to work with other AA's folk, then running into a Jordite >(Georgian?) would be a freak occurence, and difficulty communicating >is reasonable. ... >I think all that is even canonical. Or at least doesn't contradict canon. And you can even combine the two in the same game. I.e., Jordi really doesn't care much about humans or human activities, but some small fraction of his Servitors *are* tasked with interacting with humans and working with other angels. PCs (to be viable) would almost have to fall into this subgroup. On the other paw, *most* of Jordi's Servitors would spend most or all of their time in "natural" animal vessels, coordinating their activities through the "human liason" Servitors when necessary. The human liason Servitors probably would have either modified vessels, or Songs specifically to aid communication, or some other communication technique that would work with humans and other celestials in human vessels. ("Speaking Mouth Soldiers"...?) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:52:26 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: IN> Cherub of Laurance. A Cherub of Laurance can attune himself to anything he can lay eyes upon. Does this let him to attune himself to something in a photograph? I intend to (I think) allow this in my campaign, regardless of Canon, and apply the -2 or -3 penalty for going through a photograph when he rolls his Resonance to track the person down, but I wanted to know what the ruling on it was. If the ruling is no, what other tricks are there that let an angel track an person down when all they have is a photograph? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:57:06 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Soldiers of Hell Dennis Groome wrote: > > ..so the Malakite blew the whole place up. The players were horrified and > questioned the Malakite. He replied, "If they go to Hell, they were evil > and deserved punishment. If they ascend to Heaven, they have received the > greatest reward for their honor." Love it. This reminds me of Gary Kilworth's book "Angel", which I shamelssly ripped off for a Chill game. In it, a policeman asks an angel who's been incinerating demons (and any mortal that's standing too close), "whatever happened to 'thou shalt not kill'?". The answer is basically "You're confusing me with a mortal. *Thou* shalt not kill. The Commandments were given to humanity, not my kind." When I dropped that on my players, they started backing away rather quickly :-) Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1521 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.