From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Feb 13 16:33:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09637 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:33:43 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA18382 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:32:49 -0600 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:32:49 -0600 Message-Id: <200002132232.QAA18382@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1529 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, February 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1529 In this digest: Re: IN> The Angry Elohite... Re: IN> Truly Objective Elohim? RE: IN> The Angry Elohite... Re: IN> The Angry Elohite... Re: IN> The Angry Elohite... IN> Cel Song of Motion (Where is the noise?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:56:43 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> The Angry Elohite... Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > Imagine, if you will, this: > What do you think? Is this dissonant? The Elohite is certainly feeling > emotion; however, that isn't dissonant in and of itself. I think no, but > I'm not sure... The Elohite is feeling emotion. Not dissonant. The Elohite is allowing that emotion to color his actions. Dissonant. The scenario continues: The Elohite sits in the quiet comfort of his room, his rage and anguish sated by the torrent of emotion he's just poured forth. He is objective; he is calm; he is rational. All is as it is, and must be. But in the Elohite lies the seed of destruction - he has discovered that this behavior is an excellent release for tension and anxiety. Perhaps next time he will not be so careful, and leave a window open so that someone can see inside and comment on the raging Power. The open window becomes an open door, so that people may walk in and see the Elohite in the throes of his anguish. The open door becomes an open forum, and the Elohite one day finds himself - to his own and his friends' astonishment - reacting very strongly to something so trivial as the death of a child. (Yes, the death was senseless; accidents, in a perfect world, would never happen. Yet the child is now in Heaven, and is soon to climb Jacob's Ladder and bencome Enraptured. Thus, the earthly death of the child is a mere pebble tossed into the ocean of life.) But the Elohite, touched by the method of the child's death and the tender age at which he was plucked from this mortal coil, explodes into a thunderstorm of emotion. Why is everybody staring? Surely they see that the death of this child is saddening and terrible? They must. They /will/. And the Power lashes out, and one by one his friends start feeling his emotions and break into tears themselves, and the newly-Fallen Habbalite flees, crying, into the night. Demons are born insidiously, friends. Be wary. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:02:13 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Truly Objective Elohim? Tim Groth wrote: > As a general question (instead of sending out a logical argument) > is it just me or are Elohim obviously not objective because they start with > the assumption God is right. As Richard said, they don't assume, they know. Ask any Seraph. Objective here has meaning twofold. It means first and foremost to be strictly emotionless when taking action - not letting one's emotions color one's actions. Second it means that personal conviction must have a basis in rational truth and empirical study. You'll never see an Elohite do anything if he hasn't judged it to be the best course of action. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:08:01 -0800 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> The Angry Elohite... > Demons are born insidiously, friends. Be wary. > > -EDG I see, certainly, that my little vignette can be the easy start down the road to Hell, and I complement you, EDG, on your excellent portrayal of that path. However, I'm not sure if I see the reasoning as to why *being* angry is dissonant, though taking steps farther in that direction certainly could be. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:50:30 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Angry Elohite... >Imagine, if you will, this: > >The smooth-faced power, after calmly convincing the Malak and Ofanite in >the >party that they shouldn't storm the infernal tether in retribution for the >slain child in front of them, goes back to his room and screams and cries >tears of rage at the senseless death, cursing cruel circumstance and >generally being pretty unhappy. Our protagonists even makes some tortured >art, a small clay statue of a man, crying and stabbing himself. > >What do you think? Is this dissonant? The Elohite is certainly feeling >emotion; however, that isn't dissonant in and of itself. I think no, but >I'm not sure... > >Thoughts and comments appreciated. Personally, I rule IMC that *any* action based upon emotion is dissonant. I ignore the unconscius physical behaviors that occur, it only applies to *deliberate* action. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "Be grateful for luck. Pay the thunder no mind---listen to the birds. And don't hate nobody." - --Eubie Blake ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:03:00 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Angry Elohite... >At 1:07 AM -0800 2/11/00, Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > >Imagine, if you will, this: > > > >[...]goes back to his room and screams and cries[...] > > > >What do you think? Is this dissonant? The Elohite is certainly feeling > >emotion; however, that isn't dissonant in and of itself. I think no, but > >I'm not sure... AA Beth said: >It's not dissonant if it's not ignoring a tactical necessity in favor >of venting the emotions. If the Elohite honestly (not colored by its >desire to vent) believes that there is nothing else better to be done >about the situation, he's fine. > >If he's deluding himself that there's not some _other_ course of >action that could lead to protecting others -- then he's dissonant. >Not for the emotions, but for choosing to go and vent them for his >own comfort rather than quash the manifestation of them so that he >could plan how best to deal with the problem. > > >Or so I'd rule with prettynear all my hats on. O:> > >(Jo's example is also good.) Hrm . . . I prefer to understand the Elohim as being personifications of what the Buddhists or Taoist which to achieve, the decarding of the illusion of self, as opposed to "logic-masters" who refused to acknowledge emotion. From an Elohite's point of view: As the Elohite denies the self, utter selflessness, it moves closer to the divine, acting out of what the Symphony would call for. the Elohite seeks to act, not based upon personal motives, but upon what the Symphony best requires. Emotions are generated by the seat of *self*, by the assumption that there is seperation between self and others. As the Elohite realizes more and more fully that it and all of the Symphony are one and the same and that it is mere one manifestation of the Symphony, the Elohite moves further away from the selfishness of emotions. Emotions are designed to help the self to take *action*, whereas what the Elohite knows needs to be done is nonaction, meaning to act in accordance with the Symphony, and not with what it, the individual Elohite, might personally desire. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "Be grateful for luck. Pay the thunder no mind---listen to the birds. And don't hate nobody." - --Eubie Blake ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:16:00 -0500 (EST) From: Experimental Version Subject: IN> Cel Song of Motion (Where is the noise?) Greetings, Question for et. al. The disturbance created by the Celestial Song of Motion, Where does it center at? Where you left? Where you went to? Both? (Gads, I hope not both, that would make an Extremely Loud Noise (tm)). Thanks in advance, Bob Lanbert, B.O.F.H. (literally) What ever you do, DON'T get your ... ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1529 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.