From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Feb 16 12:13:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00877 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:12:58 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA26786 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:11:17 -0600 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:11:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200002161811.MAA26786@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1531 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 16 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1531 In this digest: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words RE: IN> Locations of list people IN> The Dark Host Re: IN> The Dark Host Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words IN> Kyriotate of Jean Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Re: IN> High-Contrast Words ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:54:45 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Earl Wajenberg wrote: > BUT, if you want a higher-contrast campaign, here is a list of new > Superior Words, slanted more toward Good vs. Evil, with "elemental" > functions listed as secondary titles. (Unchanged Superiors are listed > in parentheses.) > Comments? I don't think "Fame" or "Artifice" are inherently infernal/evil. "Pride" would be fitting for Nybbas, except that that's already Lucifer's area. Perhaps "Vainglory"? As for Vapula, using the pattern for Archangels, you could make him the Prince of Cruelty (Master of Machines), ignoring Magog. You also forgot Valefor, but "Theft" is about as straightforwardly "evil" as any other Word. Other than that, the list is interesting. However, I don't think the Words themselves need to be changed in order to provide a higher contrast. I can imagine even the most benevolent Words being abused, or the most malign ones being used for good, if the holder really makes a determined effort. So it's still mostly in the interpretation. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:06:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words David Edelstein wrote: > I don't think "Fame" or "Artifice" are inherently infernal/evil. > "Pride" would be fitting for Nybbas, except that that's already > Lucifer's area. Perhaps "Vainglory"? "Vanity" was my runner-up as an alternate word for Nybbas; I like "vainglory" better than it or "Fame," which, as you say, isn't really evil. Thanks. > As for Vapula, using the pattern for Archangels, you could make him > the Prince of Cruelty (Master of Machines) That might work, yes. I got stuck trying to come up with a more negative-sounding synonym for "Technology," which is, in my mind at least, a very morally neutral word. The central sin of Vapula's nature, according to his shiny new write-up in "Superiors 4," seems to be a totally callous intellectual hubris, but "Intellectual Hubris" just doesn't have much of a ring to it, as Words go. > You also forgot Valefor, but "Theft" is about as > straightforwardly "evil" as any other Word. Oops. > Other than that, the list is interesting. However, I don't think the > Words themselves need to be changed in order to provide a higher > contrast. True. This was just an aid to heightening contrast, inspired by the fact that a couple of Superior Words, specifically "Trade" and "Dark Humor" always struck me as a little off the mark. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:40:37 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Very nice. Of course, the list suggests that the angels are the good guys. In the interest of equal time, here’s the version for your Bright, High Contrast campaigns where the heroes aren’t Heavenly… Blandine – Glamour (old meaning of pretty illusions) David – the Collective (bad pun there, but David would make a pretty good Borg) Dominic – Punishment Eli – Production (“Yes, it’s a nice painting. But is it useful?”) Gabriel – Revelation (She gets a lot more visions from God. Actually, “orders” is a better term.) Janus – Chaos (the most sympathetic of the Archangels: possibly a spy for Valefor?) Jean – Evolution (in a sterile, clean way…) Jordi – the Wilds Laurence – Cleansing (Uriel’s former pupil, and the best assassin in Heaven) Marc – Wealth (Old-time Calvinist style) Michael – Force Novalis – Gardens (“Nice wilderness, but it needs more grass, less weeds, more … order.”) Uriel - Purity Yves - Destiny Andrealphus - Pleasure Asmodeus – Security Baal - War Beleth – Guilt Belial - Cleansing (Note that he and Laurence are sharing the word, and thus both are going nuts) Haagenti - Extravagance Kobal – Humor Kronos - Fate Lilith – Freedom Malphas – Competition Nybbas – Fame Saminga - Death Valefor - Balance (in a spread-the-wealth kinda way) Vapula – Experimentation (does social engineering now, too) Hope you all like. Morgan (F.A.W.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:35:19 -0000 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: RE: IN> Locations of list people > At 3:16 PM -0500 2/10/00, Mason Kramer wrote: > >>> I'm interested to hear that so many of you are from New > England. I thought > >>> you were mostly Texans. > >> > >> I was _born_ there... > > > >As was I. And now I live an hour away from you. I'm not stalking > you, really > >I'm not.... > > I should hope not. I'd hate to think I'd done something damaging with > a Ranged Weapon to someone who was buying the books... O:> > > >> No Lunacon. Already did Arisia. (Have to get a petsitter for the cats, > >> travel, ugh. Travel is very ugh these days...) > >> > >I'll be there along with my partner in crime. Which kills the stalking > >theory dead! Phew! > > > > >Mason Kramer > >Djinn of... er... ignore that.... > > Hmmmmm... I wonder if Ignore That is a Word under Oblivion... Sloth perhaps? Adam [Reading, Berks.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:07:05 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Dark Host Maurice Lane wrote: > > Very nice. Of course, the list suggests that the > angels are the good guys. > > In the interest of equal time, here’s the version for > your Bright, High Contrast campaigns where the heroes > aren’t Heavenly… Bright, high contrast campaigns where the angels are the bad guys I find rather frivolous. If you want to make Heaven the bad guys (or at least of dubious benevolence), I prefer a darker mood, much more Old Testament. Here's what I'd propose for a more severe version of the Host: Blandine -- Archangel of Visions. Her Word does not include hopes and aspirations, only the visions you experience while sleeping. Thus, the Host, through Blandine, attempts to dictate what can be dreamed and what cannot. Blandine is also in charge of prophets, subsuming this role from Gabriel. David –- Archangel of Ordeals. Less emphasis on rocks and communitarianism, and a lot more on testing people. Trials by fire. The Book of Job is light reading for Davidians. Dominic -- Archangel of Judgment. As in *Final* Judgment -- he's the one who decides which souls go to Heaven and which souls go to Hell. Obviously, there's no need for Daniel and Hutriel in this setting, since Dominic's judgment is final. Eli -- Archangel of Creation. It's such an ambiguous Word, no matter how you look at it, and it fits Eli to keep him enigmatic in any setting. Gabriel -- Archangel of Retribution. She's completely devoted to punishing sinners now. Janus -- Archangel of Storms. He's a more elemental Archangel, wreaking destruction for the sake of demonstrating God's power. Jean -- Archangel of Reason. He applies Occam's Razor in a rather brutal fashion; that which is illogical must be eliminated. Since most other Archangels aren't particularly logical, Jean probably doesn't get along very well with them. Jordi – Archangel of Beasts. Pretty much as he is now, but he never stopped treating humans as animals; he considers them to fall under his jurisdiction, and therefore he has rightful authority to tear down civilization and all other artificial constraints on mankind's true, God-given nature. Science, technology, and all the other fruits of the Tree of Knowledge are a direct result of diabolical intervention. Only when humanity returns to a state of nakedness will they be worthy of the special purpose originally assigned to them. Laurence – Archangel of Vengeance. Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, and Laurence is the one who serves it. Marc -- Archangel of Wealth. Heaven's banker, and he's basically a mirror of Lilith. Michael –- Archangel of War. War is good. Novalis -- Archangel of Nature. Plants aren't as "peaceful" as one might think. She may not be violent, but she's much more Darwinist. Yves - Archangel of Predestination. Free will is too precious a gift to be left in the hands of humans. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:30:43 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> The Dark Host Although I like the alternate Words when I shift contrast and brigthness I often keep the Words the same. Reinterpretting some of the Hellish Words so that their good can be tricky, but expalind by, "Heaven gives out Words that are 'good' and uses from for bad things, thus we will do the oppisite. Besides sharing Words is a bad thing." Most angelic Words can easily be flipped for nasty things as they are. For instance Destiny instead of being the best one can do (IN as it stands) becomes what a person can do that will most aid Heaven in the War. The Sword is a pretty easily twisted one if you think about it, especially with Laurence being the patron of christianity. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Go here, or else: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:53:58 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Lilith - Anarchy Really. Thank you but no. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:52:08 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Matt Trent wrote: > > Lilith - Anarchy > > Really. Thank you but no. Why not? It is Freedom carried to its logical extreme, the breakdown of all rules and mores. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:05:11 -0600 From: Matthew Trent Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words David Edelstein wrote: > > Matt Trent wrote: > > > Lilith - Anarchy > > > > Really. Thank you but no. > > Why not? It is Freedom carried to its logical extreme, the breakdown of > all rules and mores. Yes but it was really the nature of the list it apeared it that I object to. I don't want to talk politics right now (I do enough of that in my history class right now thank you) so I won't elaborate on the point that most of heaven is an Anarchistic Utopia. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:13:25 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words >Yes but it was really the nature of the list it apeared it that I object >to. I don't want to talk politics right now (I do enough of that in my >history class right now thank you) so I won't elaborate on the point >that most of heaven is an Anarchistic Utopia. On that list it represented the Anarchy that stupid annoying punks like, the chaos and "Don't tell me what to do mo fo!" Anarchy. Celestially different Word, but not in english. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Go here, or else: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:27:53 -0600 From: Matthew Trent Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Tim Groth wrote: > > On that list it represented the Anarchy that stupid annoying punks like, > the chaos and "Don't tell me what to do mo fo!" Anarchy. Celestially > different Word, but not in english. > In that case it's a rather week word for a Princess of Hell, a definite downgrade from Freedom. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:50:30 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Trent" > In that case it's a rather week word for a Princess of Hell, a definite You mean it's a Word that lasts for seven days? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:16:25 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Matthew Trent wrote: > Yes but it was really the nature of the list it apeared it that I object > to. I don't want to talk politics right now (I do enough of that in my > history class right now thank you) so I won't elaborate on the point > that most of heaven is an Anarchistic Utopia. Uh, no. Canonically, Heaven is far from anarchistic. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:19:18 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words Tim Groth wrote: > On that list it represented the Anarchy that stupid annoying punks like, > the chaos and "Don't tell me what to do mo fo!" Anarchy. Celestially > different Word, but not in english. Actually, I thought it represented the total abandonment of rules, responsibility, and morality that true anarchy entails. (The various political interpretations of anarchy, such as anarcho-libertarianism and anarchic utopias, are (a) fantasies, and (b) not anarchies in a literal sense, since they all require that people have accepted some set of rules and ethics to live by.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:11:59 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Kyriotate of Jean Kyriotates of Jean can use corporeal objects as vessels for a limited time. Is a relic (in corporeal form) considered as a corporeal object? I'd say no to that. What about you? Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:29:45 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words >From: "Gregory Gietzen" ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Matthew Trent" > > > In that case it's a rather week word for a Princess of Hell, a definite > >You mean it's a Word that lasts for seven days? > A weak week Word? - -Erich ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:26:20 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words > In that case it's a rather week word for a Princess of Hell, a definite > downgrade from Freedom. We'd suggest Chaos, but the cheese-factor would be overwhelming. I think you need to deinvest yourself in the world 'Anarchy' -- without the assumptions you are making about it, it's a great word for a Demon Prince. > Trent Ofanite of Doubt Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:19:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> High-Contrast Words At 8:05 PM -0600 2/15/00, Matthew Trent wrote: [...] >that most of heaven is an Anarchistic Utopia. Are you sure it's not more a Feudal Utopia? (A Utopia, granted, but with all the Servitors running around owing (voluntary, loving [or not, depending on the Brightness]) fealty to Archangels...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1531 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.