From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 14 09:59:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26576 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:59:29 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA22337 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:46:58 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:46:58 -0600 Message-Id: <200003141546.JAA22337@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1552 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 14 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1552 In this digest: Re: IN> A letter of Introduction IN> What to buy? "White Sorcerors" [was: Re: IN> A letter of Introduction] Re: IN> A letter of Introduction Re: IN> Jack, Demon of Haunted Toys Re: IN> Jack, Demon of Haunted Toys Re: IN> A letter of Introduction Re: IN> A letter of Introduction RE: IN> A letter of Introduction IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Melchizedek (was Re: IN> Grigori, and their children...) Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... IN> What books to get? Re: IN> What books to get? Re: IN> What books to get? Re: IN> What books to get? Re: IN> What books to get? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:13:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A letter of Introduction At 11:26 AM +0000 3/13/00, Laurent wrote: >heard stuff about "white mages". At least, I think they were white mages. Maybe >it's a different name... Whatever! They're nice sorcerers... Corporeal Player's Guide, IIRC. Maybe a "throwaway" line in _The Marches_, again IIRC. (Nearly time for me to leave for the hospital, can't check the page refs, sorry.) >I'm not going to buy the book right now Basically, a "white sorcerer" is one who hasn't gotten the Sorcery attunement from a Fate-demon (or any demon) and uses their power in ways that aren't going to damn them to Hell. They have the same abilities as regular sorcerers (though they might not have learned all the same skills). They just use them better. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:32:28 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: IN> What to buy? Beth, this question has been asked, IIRC, over half a dozen times. Should I put a short list of books and recommendations up on the FAQ? - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:13:58 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: "White Sorcerors" [was: Re: IN> A letter of Introduction] well, put very simply, White Sorcerers are Sorcerers who try to use their power for good and attempt to avoid the desecration of one's soul Sorcery tends to bring. they use the exact same rules for normal Sorcerers, they just have a different motive. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:32:42 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A letter of Introduction Laurent wrote: > My apologies for asking about what might already have been answered, but I've> heard stuff about "white mages". At least, I think they were white mages. Maybe> it's a different name... Whatever! They're nice sorcerers... Corporeal Player's Guide. Basically, they're sorcerers who have acquired the Sorcery attunement *without* making a deal with demons of Fate (and thus damning themselves). They're very rare. The Catholic Church is rumored to have a few exorcists (who, naturally, don't think of themselves as "sorcerers"). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:33:27 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Jack, Demon of Haunted Toys Erich Arendall wrote: > So where is the line between when Words can be reinterpreted, or is that> reserved for Superiors? See Chapter 2 of the GMG. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:40:38 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Jack, Demon of Haunted Toys >Erich Arendall wrote: > > So where is the line between when Words can be reinterpreted, or is >that> reserved for Superiors? > >See Chapter 2 of the GMG. ;) > >-David D'oh! Silly me. ...This is the last time I check my e-mail before I've had my coffee. :) - -Erich S. Arendall ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:13:43 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A letter of Introduction At 1:44 -0500 3/13/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >> >The Angelic Player's Guide... Well, it's got useful data, and it's got >> >stuff that's up against the wall when the first edition sells out and >> >I have some spare time to cackle manically and get sections rewritten. >> >All mixed together, ugh. And some of the art in it _really_ sucks. >> >> *Big A$$ blink* >> >> Whoa..this blows me away. Not to refer to any competition, but, I've been >> on the Palladium Mailing List for about 3 years. Never once have I seen any >> official type people actualy admit to problems with a product, let alone >> criticize one so directly. To some extent, this reflects SJ's (Steve Jackson's) own viewpoint -- he's rather a perfectionist, and doesn't like putting out bad product. And he tends to be open about flaws, and getting them fixed. Look at the extensive errata lists that are maintained on the SJGames web site, even for out-of-print products that will probably never be published again. >Elizabeth, David, and several other official and semi-official type people >hang out here... and they're all pretty straightforward about the >occasional problems with the products (which are inevitable in anything as >big and complex as a good gaming universe, IMO). And not all of us semi-official types agree on what those problems are, sometimes. Like anyone else here, we all have our opinions. Elizabeth's simply count for more, since she's the LE (Line Editor). >And, BTW, some of us don't even dislike the APG as much as Elizabeth does. Myself included; it's a pet peeve of hers and I think she overemphasizes its flaws sometimes. I tend to agree with her about the flaws, but I don't think they outweigh the good parts of the book; some of it is quite good, and the worst is probably no worse than mediocre (which *is* fairly bad by SJGames standards, in my opinion). It does have a few rules that I ignore, and the extra check digit tables are definitely on the "to be killed on sight" list, but it's still useful. I'd rather have the (nebulously future) 2nd edition APG, but the current edition is still worthwhile. Especially if you also have the IPG, which corrects some of the most-flawed sections in the flip-side demonic treatment. >Yeah, it's got a few screwy rules, and some so-so art. But I'd still >consider it almost indispensable... and no, *I'm* not anyone official at >all. Really, it does give some very nice insight into the different >choirs; if you're going to run angelic PCs, I'd call it a must-buy. Personally, I think I'd go for the Superiors books over the APG and the IPG, though it's a tough call -- they're apples and oranges. >> As to why the above is important; After looking over the official webpage, I >> had put the APG on my tentative list of books I wanted. In fact, I was >> planning on purchasing it next. While an honest opinion/review of the >> product has changed that, and I likely won't be getting the APG anytime >> soon, fear not. The honest review means i'll be picking up a different >> product and has built some good will. You should probably keep it on your wish-list, though I'd definitely recommend getting the IPG first, especially if you're GMing an angelic game -- it will give you a better insight into the NPCs you need to run, and the background material that's somewhat duplicated (or more accurately, reflected) between the APG and IPG is clearer there. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:43:17 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A letter of Introduction At 20:21 -0500 3/12/00, A.Hamilton wrote: >1) Which books should I purchase next? I realize this is a rather >subjective question, but any insights ya'll could provide would be great. My personal list (which varies somewhat from moment to moment, and as new books come out), in roughly descending order of priority: Core books - ---------- Main Book GMG (primarily for GMs) Superiors #n (GMs will probably want all of them eventually, and players will probably want the one for their own Superior(s)) IPG APG L.Canticorum - --- (the following rank lower than the above, in no particular order, depending mostly on the campaign setup and GM/player style) - --- Corporeal Player's Guide L.Reliquarum L.Servitorum (again more GM-centric, though the Role/Servant stuff is useful to players) L.Castellorum (primarily of interest to GMs, and to players in Tether-centric campaigns) Heaven & Hell (for the sections on Heaven & Hell, mostly) The Marches (for the stuff on the Marches itself, mostly) - --- Other stuff (more or less descending order, starting roughly comparable to the second section of the core books) - ----------- You Are Here (mainly a GM book, though useful for player backgrounds as well) GM Screen (mostly for the good adventure included, the screen is actually not as useful as it should be) Fall of the Malakim Night Music The Final Trumpet (note that FotM and Final Trumpet are really a pair that need to go together, if you use the main adventures in either) - --- I don't *think* I left anything out.... Right... there's also GURPS In Nomine (GURPS IN, GIN), which is essentially a GURPS rewrite/adaptation of the main In Nomine book (by Yours Truly and the IN Line Editor). It's major points of interest to IN players is that it's (hopefully) better organized than the main IN book, and it does incorporate many of the errata and FAQ issues from the original IN, as well as a few minor bits from other IN books, in one place. However, it's geared to GURPS mechanics, not the lighter-weight IN system. Also, if In Nomine sells well enough, there will likely be a second edition of the main book, which will be organized similarly. There's essentially no new or different material in GURPS IN, except for some stuff related to GURPS mechanics and non-canon "crossover" campaigns. (OK, it *does* have a little new stuff on the Grigori and the Children of the Grigori, which is taken from as-yet-unpublished material in the In Nomine line -- the GURPS version was deemed to be incomplete without mechanics for this forthcoming material on a semi-major Choir.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:20:22 -0800 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> A letter of Introduction > 1) Which books should I purchase next? I realize this is a rather > subjective question, but any insights ya'll could provide > would be great. Probably the GMG, first, seeing as you're apparently a GM. It has all sorts of juicy tidbits to make the mind salivate. The Liber Canticorum is really helpful- PCs will most definately want to use it, and that means you need it. The Superiors books are almost essential, to my mind- You'll be able to run your PCs' Superiors much better with them; If you have a PC whose Superior hasn't been written up yet, you're basicalyl going to have to create your own writeup. IMO, the writeups in the main book are just teasers- there really isn't enough information there to run the Superior well. APG/IPG- Flip through them, but let your PCs lay out the cash. Oh, and subscribe to Pyramid. The articles are great, the discussion boards are really nice, and it is a wonderful thing to see playtest files. Just promise Beth you'll buy the books eventually. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:05:07 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... > There's essentially no new or different material in GURPS IN, > except for some > stuff related to GURPS mechanics and non-canon "crossover" > campaigns. (OK, > it *does* have a little new stuff on the Grigori and the Children > of the > Grigori, which is taken from as-yet-unpublished material in the In > Nomine > line -- the GURPS version was deemed to be incomplete without > mechanics for > this forthcoming material on a semi-major Choir.) > ---Walter Is "as yet unpublised" the same as Not [IN] Cannon (1)? I realize that i may well be skirting the edge of my Clearance here, in which case a group of Malakim In Black will be sent for me (hey...i do not have L. Caticorum with me at work; is there a song that allows the user to erase memories? I am thinking of an artifact / relic that has this song: Standard issue to all aforementioned MIB, with the Special effact that i flashes a bright light when used...(also known as a Flashy thingee)) Right. I know that there hs been considerable debate on how some aspects of G IN canon will lead to IN canon. My understanding (and correct me if i am wrong) is that IN canon, as defined by SJ and our Beloved Line Editor, is the Canon; G IN will take follow those rules, and those of the GURPS canon (as defined by Dr. Kromm, ArchPrince of...hmmmm). So what i am wondering is how much the grigori of G IN will resemble the grigori of IN. - -Daiv (1) Canon, in this context, refers to the official rules as published, plus the corrections and errata rulings made by the line editor (beloved, arch, etc.) There is the the explicit statement that any given GM may do whatever he or she wants with that canon (personally, I like hacking out all the rules for dealing with mortals and inserting the game Feng Shui instead, with a little Primal Order mixedin for good measure...). Also. I am NOT the source of canon, i am merely a vessel through which canon may occasionally pass. - -Daiv ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com time to change sig files i do not have a new one make something up then - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:30:45 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 16:05 -0500 3/13/00, David Barr wrote: >> (OK, >> it *does* have a little new stuff on the Grigori and the Children >> of the >> Grigori, which is taken from as-yet-unpublished material in the In >> Nomine >> line -- the GURPS version was deemed to be incomplete without >> mechanics for >> this forthcoming material on a semi-major Choir.) >> ---Walter > >Is "as yet unpublised" the same as Not [IN] Cannon (1)? It's basically, "We expect this to become IN canon, but it hasn't yet been published in the IN line itself." So, it *might* change, but there's no current expectation that it will. >Right. I know that there hs been considerable debate on how some >aspects of G IN canon will lead to IN canon. My understanding (and >correct me if i am wrong) is that IN canon, as defined by SJ and our >Beloved Line Editor, is the Canon; G IN will take follow those rules, >and those of the GURPS canon (as defined by Dr. Kromm, ArchPrince >of...hmmmm). So what i am wondering is how much the grigori of G IN >will resemble the grigori of IN. This is not a case of something being defined to handle GURPS-related issues, or to fit in with GURPS mechanics -- such things probably *won't* feed back to IN canon (though some may, where they fit in well, especially in gray areas that tend to wind up in the FAQ; this is because GURPS tends to force authors to nail down stuff more rigorously than IN does). This is a case of something not yet defined in the IN universe, which needed to be defined so that the GURPS mechanics conversion could be put into GURPS IN, so all the GURPS IN buyers didn't scream that they didn't get a complete conversion when the IN version of Grigori was published a few (?) months later. ("?" because the timing of this wasn't nailed down at the time, and still isn't, as far as I know, but was something known to be forthcoming for IN sometime "soon".) So the idea was to make a best-guess cut at what was going to be IN canon for the Grigori (and Children) and then GURPS-ize that. And that's what SJ, Elizabeth, and I did. Grigori and Children of the Grigori in IN will probably be fairly close to what's given in GURPS IN. (Note that GIN really defines only the basic character mechanics, and doesn't add any new background material on the Grigori and Children. That's yet to be finalized in the IN line, and is probably the more important aspect, actually.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:17:40 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... I have a general question about the Grigori. Did any of them ever Fall? It would seem to me that some of them would have to have to justify ousting them from Heaven as a whole. But it seems hell is empty of the demons that were once Grigori, which would imply that the Grigori didn't want to sign up with Hell. Anyway I'm not really all that curious about their resonance/dissonance and how their children can shoot lighting from their arse but if there are Fallen Grigori or if somehow they managed to loose no players to the other side. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation Go here, or else: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:43:54 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Tim Groth wrote: > > I have a general question about the Grigori. Did any of them ever Fall? > It would seem to me that some of them would have to have to justify ousting > them from Heaven as a whole. But it seems hell is empty of the demons that > were once Grigori, which would imply that the Grigori didn't want to sign > up with Hell. Some might have Fallen. Most (if not all) of them were seemingly corrupted by 'the pleasures of the flesh' leading to their Outcasting which is not quite the same thing, however. The Grigori are VERY strongly tied to the Earth so even fallen o nes would avoid Hell, IMO. As of now, there are no canonical examples of Grigori (Fallen or otherwise). There will be. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:24:02 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... - --- Walter Milliken wrote: [snip] >.....when the IN version of Grigori was published > a few (?) > months later. ("?" because the timing of this wasn't nailed down > at the > time, and still isn't, as far as I know, but was something known to > be > forthcoming for IN sometime "soon".) [snip] > ---Walter Did i forget to mention that i am seriously drooling in anticipation of this? I getthe impression that i am not the only one who has a list of Unanswered questions that are not (that i know of) Canonical Doubt and uncertainty. The history and nature of the Grigori and the Children of the Grigori is high up on that list. Hmmmm....that brings to mind a question. is there any collection of CDAU questions? sort of an Fnorded FAQ, as it were? ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com time to change sig files i do not have a new one make something up then - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:32:34 -0500 From: "A.Hamilton" Subject: Melchizedek (was Re: IN> Grigori, and their children...) - -----Original Message----- From: John Karakash To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 6:52 PM Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... > Some might have Fallen. Most (if not all) of them >were seemingly corrupted by 'the pleasures of the flesh' leading >to their Outcasting which is not quite the same thing, however. >The Grigori are VERY strongly tied to the Earth so even fallen o >nes would avoid Hell, IMO. Okay..I realize I'm the new kid..but here goes. To me, one of the most interesting personages in the Bible is a righteous dude by the name of (no, not Ferris) Melchizedek. For those not familiar with Mel, he is first mentioned in the Old Testament, and is a rather curius individual. He shows up in Genesis (14:8 to be specific) and has a feast with Abram, where he blesses the Patriarch in the name of God most high. After the feast, Abram gives a 10th of everything he has to Mel as a tithe or offering. Mel is a High Priest, before there is a priesthood, and he is also the King of Salem. Add to all this the fact he is also a Gentile and you've got a weird little sidebar in the Old Testament, but mostly a curiosity. That is until the book of Hebrews in the New Testament, where Jesus is refered to as being a Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. Curioser and Curioser, no? This weird little tidbit seems ripe for use in In Nomine, what with all the Corporeal-ized Angels running around. And this post got to thinking that perhaps Mel was a Grigori or a half-breed of some sort in the service of the Cause of Heaven? Perhaps a servitor of Eli? Then again, going with the theory of Eli is the Son...perhaps Mel was a vessel of Eli's? Just thought I'd throw this out here for you folks with more comprehensive knowledge to take a whack at. >+ John Karakash - geek, writer, cook A.Hamilton: ahamilton@tntie.com Personal Page: http://www.tntie.com/ahamilton/index.html "It was a Big Mistake to have eyes that see To have love like this inside of me To have lips that smile as I swim your kiss" David Wilcox, 'Big Mistake' Big Horizon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:45:49 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... David Barr wrote: > Hmmmm....that brings to mind a question. is there any collection of > CDAU questions? sort of an Fnorded FAQ, as it were? Ask and ye shall receive! http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/doubt.html - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 02:14:28 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> What books to get? Jumping on the bandwagon somewhat lately, I'd like to throw my $.02 in... BOOKS YOU LITERALLY _NEED_: 1. In Nomine main book. BOOKS YOU ALMOST LITERALLY NEED: 1. Game Master's Guide. Man, oh man, the GMG comes _very_ close to being in the first group. While focused more on helping GM's design and run their campaign, it has indispensible information on religion and celestial history, has GREAT guidelines for playing Superiors, and is the only source of the Wordbound rules (a very, VERY important set of rules that I'd assume would have been put in the main book if they had existed back then.) BOOKS THAT WILL HELP A _LOT_: 1. Corporeal Player's Guide 2. Infernal Player's Guide 3. Angelic Player's Guide (Listed not in order of how much you need them, but in order of quality, good to bad.) The CPG has rules for humans, sure, but also tons of rules for agencies and organizations on earth, drugs and poisons, Soldiers, Undead, and Boddishivita (or however you spell it). VERY good. The IPG has great rules on demons, all well balanced - the writeups on the mindsets and lifestyles of the different bands is well worth it. The APG is like the IPG, except that some of the rules are BAD...but unlike Beth, most of us recommend it anyways, because it has some indispensible info on angelic choirs and their lives! (Basically, just white-out the "-4 penalty Kyrio table" and both Mercurian tables, and you're okay.) 4. Liber Canticorum 5. Liber Castellorum The books of songs and tethers. VERY useful! The Songbook is the sexier one... players ALWAYS love a new 'grimoire' of 'spells' to play with. But the LCast is, in my opinion, more useful for GMs. Tethers add a LOT of flavor to whatever campaign you run (or play in) and the LCast does a wonderful job of explaining how they form, what they can/can't do, and what exactly a Seneschal is and can do. BOOKS TO GET IF YOU WANT PLOT HOOKS AND IDEAS: 1. You Are Here 2. Liber Servitorum YAH is a book of places - not tethers, just different places/situations that can be dropped into a local game. I found it gave me some good ideas, and had no 'useless' places in it (with the sole exception of the Boy Scout Hall). The LS is full of NPCs, and while I thought it provided less cool plot hooks, it can be very useful if you're a GM who's getting stuck on personality-challenged one-dimensional NPCs. It also has some decent rules on Roles, though nothing that made me jump up for joy. BOOKS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT WANT 1. Superiors 1 2. Superiors 2 3. Superiors 3 ...you get the idea Splatbooks, one and all, but dammit, they're good splatbooks. Every writeup so far has been insightful and detailed, and provides more than just new attunements and distinctions... they provide GOOD, SOLID info about playing a Servitor of that Superior. If you're going to serve a given Superior, or (as a GM) are going to give a certain Superior some focus for a while, it's worth your while to pick up the Superior book... if it exists, and if it fits your budget, of course. BOOKS THAT HAVE _SOME_ USE: 1. Heaven and Hell 2. The Marches BOOKS THAT HAVE A TEENY BIT OF USE: 1. Night Music BOOKS THAT WE'D RATHER PRETEND NEVER HAPPENED: 1. The Final Trumpet 2. Fall of the Malakim Honestly, the best thing about the Superior books is that new players don't have to buy these five "Revelations Cycle" books to get the writeups. If they didn't exist, these books might be more useful... and until Christopher, Lilith, et al, get their Superior books, you may still want 'em...or it may be worth the wait, honestly... Barring the writeups, there isn't really any reason at all to get Night Music, Fall of the Malakim, or Final Trumpet. The Marches still has the best information on the Ethereal Plane, but the "Ethereal Player's Guide" will be out soon, and it'll eclipse that info COMPLETELY, I'm sure (just like the CPG completely eclipsed the stuff in Night Music, along with the Marches' sorcery rules). Heaven and Hell actually has some use, and is the only one of the books that will probably have some use for a while to come; it does a decent (decent, not GREAT) job of describing the two realms, and gives some interesting descriptions of places in Heaven (though You Are Here gives better ones). It is currently the ONLY book with the rules for Limbo, which may make it worth your while to buy. Night Music is useful ONLY if you want a game run in Austin, where the angels and demons all get along (somewhat)...honestly, it IS a fairly cool setting, and it's a wonderful place to run a mixed campaign, so feel free to pick it up. Final Trumpet is fiction disguised as an "epic adventure". It's an "adventure" about Armageddon with some BIG downfalls. FIRSTLY, it almost _requires_ that you start off with the Fall of the Malakim adventure (below), which, as you're about to read, is shit. SECONDLY, it railroads the characters throughout the whole thing...badly. Those who like their free will will grow to hate you. THIRDLY, it has all these chapters... er, I mean, "scenarios" in the "adventure" that don't involve the PCs AT ALL! Superiors convening and deciding on an outcome, quiet personal conversations held in the middle of deserts or in the LOWER HELLS... the book suggests letting players PLAY SUPERIORS during some parts so they won't get bored at your narration. Bad book, no donut. Fall of the Malakim, however, is horse doody. Bad, bad, BAD book. Avoid it as you would avoid a rabid dog. Stupid adventure with dozens of plot holes in it big enough to drive a semi truck through. Angels working for Demon Princes, "essence batteries" with 1,000 essence in 'em, Dominic himself watching a video tape FILLED with lies and not catching ANY of them, and a city completely controlled by the demons, who know where EVERY angel is at ALL times because they somehow monitor EVERY PERSON WHO ENTERS LOS ANGELES, EVERY MINUTE OF THE DAY. ....sorry, I'm ranting. Anyways, that's the books. They range from wonderful to crap. But I still love this game and its product line, and it's been getting better all the time! - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "OH you otten nichel I otten a currency from ten cent of dollar / I grad AT otten AT sap ya but I not otten time" -- (Beginning of Devo's "Wiggly World", run through Babelfish twice) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 02:03:27 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> What books to get? On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Rev. Pee Kity wrote: > BOOKS YOU ALMOST LITERALLY NEED: > > 1. Game Master's Guide. I'd move it down a notch or two. It's handy, but I don't consider it must-have. > Man, oh man, the GMG comes _very_ close to being in the first group. While > focused more on helping GM's design and run their campaign, it has > indispensible information on religion and celestial history, has GREAT > guidelines for playing Superiors, and is the only source of the Wordbound > rules (a very, VERY important set of rules that I'd assume would have been > put in the main book if they had existed back then.) All this information is useful, some of it is interesting, but none of it is what I'd call indispensible. > BOOKS THAT WILL HELP A _LOT_: > > 1. Corporeal Player's Guide > 2. Infernal Player's Guide > 3. Angelic Player's Guide The Corp Guide is OK, but not as useful as the other two, unless you're running a very human-centric campaign. > (Listed not in order of how much you need them, but in order of quality, > good to bad.) The CPG has rules for humans, sure, but also tons of rules > for agencies and organizations on earth, drugs and poisons, Soldiers, > Undead, and Boddishivita (or however you spell it). VERY good. IMO handy but not vital. > The IPG has > great rules on demons, all well balanced - the writeups on the mindsets > and lifestyles of the different bands is well worth it. Yep. > The APG is like > the IPG, except that some of the rules are BAD...but unlike Beth, most of > us recommend it anyways, because it has some indispensible info on angelic > choirs and their lives! (Basically, just white-out the "-4 penalty Kyrio > table" and both Mercurian tables, and you're okay.) And ignore the icky cover. Yep. > 4. Liber Canticorum > 5. Liber Castellorum > > The books of songs and tethers. VERY useful! The Songbook is the sexier > one... players ALWAYS love a new 'grimoire' of 'spells' to play with. But > the LCast is, in my opinion, more useful for GMs. Tethers add a LOT of > flavor to whatever campaign you run (or play in) and the LCast does a > wonderful job of explaining how they form, what they can/can't do, and > what exactly a Seneschal is and can do. I'd put the Songbook well above the Book of Tethers. Both are vital game elements, but Tethers are much much easier to fudge. Players *want* the Songbook. > BOOKS TO GET IF YOU WANT PLOT HOOKS AND IDEAS: > > 1. You Are Here > 2. Liber Servitorum > > YAH is a book of places - not tethers, just different places/situations > that can be dropped into a local game. I found it gave me some good ideas, > and had no 'useless' places in it (with the sole exception of the Boy > Scout Hall). The LS is full of NPCs, and while I thought it provided less > cool plot hooks, it can be very useful if you're a GM who's getting stuck > on personality-challenged one-dimensional NPCs. It also has some decent > rules on Roles, though nothing that made me jump up for joy. FWIW, I liked the LS rather more than YAH. Some very cool characters and plot hooks. YAH didn't really click for me. > BOOKS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT WANT > > 1. Superiors 1 > 2. Superiors 2 > 3. Superiors 3 > ...you get the idea > > Splatbooks, one and all, but dammit, they're good splatbooks. Every > writeup so far has been insightful and detailed, and provides more than > just new attunements and distinctions... they provide GOOD, SOLID info > about playing a Servitor of that Superior. Agreed. > BOOKS THAT WE'D RATHER PRETEND NEVER HAPPENED: > > 1. The Final Trumpet > 2. Fall of the Malakim Disagree, especially about TFT. > Barring the writeups, there isn't really any reason at all to get Night > Music, Fall of the Malakim, or Final Trumpet. The Marches still has the > best information on the Ethereal Plane, but the "Ethereal Player's Guide" > will be out soon, and it'll eclipse that info COMPLETELY, I'm sure (just > like the CPG completely eclipsed the stuff in Night Music, along with the > Marches' sorcery rules). Waiting... > Heaven and Hell actually has some use, and is the only one of the books > that will probably have some use for a while to come; it does a decent > (decent, not GREAT) job of describing the two realms, and gives some > interesting descriptions of places in Heaven (though You Are Here gives > better ones). It is currently the ONLY book with the rules for Limbo, > which may make it worth your while to buy. Easy with the all-caps there, Reverend Pee, you're hurtin' my ears a bit. Me, I liked HaH okay... it had the fun "No Dinero" adventure in it, after all. > Final Trumpet is fiction disguised as an "epic adventure". Demur. It's a flawed but still very workable scenario that has some really, really nice pieces in it. All my PCs, without exception, have loved it. > It's an > "adventure" about Armageddon with some BIG downfalls. FIRSTLY, it almost > _requires_ that you start off with the Fall of the Malakim adventure > (below), which, as you're about to read, is shit. Well, no, it doesn't. It devotes several pages to explaining how you can bring the PCs in from other, earlier adventures in the Rev Cycle, if you don't have FotM, or want to skip it. Or you can start from scratch easily enought (though you'll have to lay some back story, yes). > SECONDLY, it railroads > the characters throughout the whole thing...badly. Those who like their > free will will grow to hate you. Not so. Not at all. It's got multiple choice points for the PCs (starting with the big one of whether they're trying to bring on The End, or prevent it). It can be "solved" in at least two different ways (Max and Mira) and "ended" in at least six. My PCs love their free will, and, again, they've all enjoyed this one thoroughly. > THIRDLY, it has all these chapters... er, > I mean, "scenarios" in the "adventure" that don't involve the PCs AT ALL! > Superiors convening and deciding on an outcome, quiet personal > conversations held in the middle of deserts or in the LOWER HELLS... ...except that those aren't necessary to the scenario from the PC's point of view; they're there for the GM's benefit, and for "color". Although I admit, I have found various ways to get this information to the PCs. And they usually react in all sorts of fun ways... "Khalid's been talking to WHO?!?" Seriously, "Final Trumpet" does have some problems, but IMO it's the best big scenario out there for IN. It does require some work on the GM's part, but it's very, very doable. I've run it, um, two and a half times now, and might yet again. Certainly I've gotten more then $18 worth of enjoyment out of it. > Fall of the Malakim, however, is horse doody. Bad, bad, BAD book. Avoid it > as you would avoid a rabid dog. Stupid adventure with dozens of plot holes > in it big enough to drive a semi truck through. Angels working for Demon > Princes, "essence batteries" with 1,000 essence in 'em, Dominic himself > watching a video tape FILLED with lies and not catching ANY of them, and a > city completely controlled by the demons, who know where EVERY angel is at > ALL times because they somehow monitor EVERY PERSON WHO ENTERS LOS > ANGELES, EVERY MINUTE OF THE DAY. ....sorry, I'm ranting. Maybe a little... Okay, FotM has *big* problems. But it, too, is runnable. A lot of the problems disappear, or anyhow diminish, if you consider it as a prologue or first act to FT. And some of the flinch-inducing booboos can be dropped or worked around without too much difficulty. I've run this one several times, too, and there is some good stuff in it. Maximilian, properly run, is a really scary and tragic character. Everybody likes the idea that L.A. is really run by demons. And if you set things up right, the swift and violent denouement can leave PCs dazed... but totally intrigued and ready for the roller-coaster ride of "Final Trumpet". > Anyways, that's the books. They range from wonderful to crap. You forgot the Liber Reliquarum. Which nobody seems to like much, and I dislike a lot. But you're right that it's getting better all the time. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 02:15:22 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> What books to get? Douglas Muir wrote: > > FWIW, I liked the LS rather more than YAH. Some very cool characters and > plot hooks. YAH didn't really click for me. I have to disagree strongly there. YAH is what turned me on to the IN line. It's a really amazing book (with what is IMHO the best cover of the entire line (exempting of course the burning feather)) > You forgot the Liber Reliquarum. Which nobody seems to like much, and I > dislike a lot. > I also like the LR a lot. Where else can you find out about the Hoola-Hoops of Hell? Trent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:30:45 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> What books to get? Douglas Muir wrote: > You forgot the Liber Reliquarum. Which nobody seems to like much, and I> dislike a lot. Huh? You're entitled to dislike it, but the consensus I've seen hasn't indicated that "nobody seems to like it much." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:34:16 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> What books to get? At 8:30 AM -0600 3/14/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Douglas Muir wrote: > > You forgot the Liber Reliquarum. Which nobody seems to like >much, and I> dislike a lot. > >Huh? You're entitled to dislike it, but the consensus I've seen hasn't >indicated that "nobody seems to like it much." I moderately like the LR. It has a few things in it I dislike rather intensely, but they're very "your mileage may vary" sorts of things. I like the rules in it quite a lot, and like its layout and many of the relics et al. I haven't heard a general dislike for it, though. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1552 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.