From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 16 08:55:47 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08285 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:55:47 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id IAA15757 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:52:11 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:52:11 -0600 Message-Id: <200003161452.IAA15757@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1554 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 16 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1554 In this digest: Re: IN> Obsession. Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... RE: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> Obsession. Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... RE: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... IN> Mercurians & Malakim Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re:IN> The Odor of Sanctity Re: IN> Mercurians & Malakim Re: IN> The Odor of Sanctity RE: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... IN> Cheesy Artefacts Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> Cheesy Artifacts IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... IN> The Bureau Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts IN> Dark God and low contrast ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:17:37 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Obsession. David Edelstein wrote: > It can also be quite irrational. I heard of one man with OCD, for > example, who would seal an envelope, then before mailing it feel > compelled to open it and make sure his daughter wasn't in the envelope. > And he was otherwise quite rational, and KNEW that it was ridiculous to > think his daughter might be in an envelope. Yet he couldn't help being > seized with this dread that she might be inside and he was about to mail > her. His rational mind simply couldn't overcome his irrational impulses. That's terrible and yet it's better than a lot of other things he could be afflicted with. I wonder if he became a big fan of electronic bill paying and email? =) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:08:48 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 18:17 -0500 3/13/00, Tim Groth wrote: >I have a general question about the Grigori. Did any of them ever Fall? It's certainly possible -- we have a *very* short writeup of them in GURPS IN (also from proto-canon), with the suggestion that there are *very* few of them. Fallen Grigori are demons, just like other Fallen angels; the Grigori themselves aren't Fallen, just Outcast, so they're still angels. They don't have a Band name (probably because they're too few to form a real Band), though they are called the Skulkers. >It would seem to me that some of them would have to have to justify ousting >them from Heaven as a whole. Not necessarily -- they were just seen as too flawed and *likely* to Fall. Which is kind of weird really -- the Council was basically saying that God's *design* of the Choir was broken, which amounts, in my opinion, to criticizing God.... > But it seems hell is empty of the demons that >were once Grigori, which would imply that the Grigori didn't want to sign >up with Hell. Correct -- the GIN writeup describes Fallen Grigori as secretive and very afraid of being exposed to Heaven's wrath, so they don't want to work for Hell, either. (Though they *are* demons.) They just hide out in the corporeal realm, for the most part. If any were actually working for Hell, they'd probably be just as secretive there, which means few, if any, demons would know of their existance. This is all very vague -- for one thing, it's just "proto-canon" that tries to align with where SJ and Elizabeth think the Grigori should be going in future IN products, without most of the details having been worked out. For another, there was simply no space to make major additions to GURPS IN, so we tried to put in the bare minimum that would cover the future details. Expect to see a *much* more detailed treatment in the IN line sometime in the (hopefully near) future. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:16:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Walter Milliken wrote: > They don't have a Band name (probably because they're too few to > form a real Band), though they are called the Skulkers. Oh, I dunno. All they need is someone on drums, someone on bass, a couple of guitarists, and a vocalist or two... > Not necessarily -- they were just seen as too flawed and *likely* to > Fall. Which is kind of weird really -- the Council was basically > saying that God's *design* of the Choir was broken, which amounts, > in my opinion, to criticizing God.... In the book of Enoch, where all this comes from, there were 200 Grigori, and they all bound themselves together with an oath that ALL of them would go down at take mortal wives, etc. So maybe Grigori are herd-minded animals, and are all Outcast because they all sinned together. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:22:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... The GURPS In Nomine files say: "They were exiled from Heaven for the sin of forgetting their duties and turning instead to the joys of Earthly life, including human mates -- and children." So it sounds like they all sinned, not that the Seraphim Council was smitten with racism or decided to pan the Grigori design. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:33:08 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... >From: Walter Milliken > >Not necessarily -- they were just seen as too flawed and *likely* to Fall. >Which is kind of weird really -- the Council was basically saying that >God's >*design* of the Choir was broken, which amounts, in my opinion, to >criticizing God.... > Hence it can't be the reason they were outcast :) I think that the Grigori were always a small choir, and that it was down to something which they actually did, and the ones who didn't take part helped to cover it up. I suspect they were outcast for placing choir loyalty above loyalty to God/ Heaven. The actual crime was just part of that. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:05:56 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 12:16 -0500 3/15/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >In the book of Enoch, where all this comes from, there were 200 Grigori, >and they all bound themselves together with an oath that ALL of them >would go down at take mortal wives, etc. So maybe Grigori are >herd-minded animals, and are all Outcast because they all sinned >together. Could be, or maybe they were simply on a Mission from God.... I don't know what the canon number of Grigori will be (if any), but I think it's going to be small, probably smaller than any other major Choir or Band. Certainly the number of extant Grigori is small. One other tidbit that's in the GIN writeup (and may be referenced somewhere in IN canon, though I don't recall for certain): there was at least one Grigori Superior, the Archangel of Song. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:24:57 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 12:22 -0500 3/15/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >The GURPS In Nomine files say: > >"They were exiled from Heaven for the sin of forgetting their duties and >turning instead to the joys of Earthly life, including human mates -- >and children." So it sounds like they all sinned, not that the Seraphim >Council was smitten with racism or decided to pan the Grigori design. I suppose it's possible that *none* of them could withstand the temptations of the flesh. But that too, sounds like a design flaw, when the Designer is supposedly omniscient. If they *all* succumbed, it sure sounds like God planned it that way. Which raises a number of *very* interesting questions.... For example, why, of all the angels, were only Grigori created such that they could interbreed successfully with humans? I suppose one could argue that they were designed so close to human that this was just a side effect, but you'd think this could have been fixed, so to speak. There's also the question of whether an Archangel could make a Grigori (or a DP make a Fallen Grigori, having once seen on as a model). They may be like Lilim, in that there is a unique origin point for each one. Also, the related question -- can a Grigori AA make more Grigori? Or even any sort of celestial? If there were one or more Grigori AAs, and they survived their exile, are there *new* Grigori running around. Or worse yet -- from the Council's perspective -- angels of other Choirs created to serve the exiled Grigori Archangel(s)? Hmmm... here's a thought. Maybe Lilith is a sort of proto-Grigori (only a little closer still to human, such that she's actually accepted by the Symphony as one). That could would explain a number of anomalies about her. Of course, if that's true, it looks like God had some basic design problems trying to create a being that shared characteristics of both celestials and humans -- none of them turned out very well. Seems like straddling that boundary makes the being inherently a little unstable... both showed a stronger interest in doing their own thing than serving God's Will. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:46:06 -0800 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... > Which raises a number of *very* interesting > questions.... For example, why, of all the angels, were only Grigori > created such that they could interbreed successfully with > humans? I suppose > one could argue that they were designed so close to human > that this was > just a side effect, but you'd think this could have been fixed, so to > speak. > ---Walter I don't think it likely that this is a side effect. After all, the Grigori, presumably, were, like other angels, created before Mankind ever existed. (This does, of course, make one wonder what the Mercurians thought their job was... I can just see it: "Yeah, Most Holy, I'm one of the Friends of Man... What's a Man, you ask? Got me. Maybe its some rock that big Cherub guy David is creating... I know he's got all kinds of funny names. I'm sure Yves or Metatron would know.") If the Grigori were created before mankind evolved, then it would seem like the interbreeding would be a deliberate design element... Which brings us back, of course, to the 'God made a boo-boo' problem. On the other hand, if the Lord of Hosts was a little tipsy when he created the Grigori, perhaps he wasn't so infallible in creating the other choirs, or, say, Lucy. The whole set-up casts some doubt on the 'Lucifer's Rebellion and Fall are just parts of God's ineffable plan and we're all going to win out in the end, you just mark my words young bene-elohim' theory, and by extension makes the angelic position on the war a little less tenable... Deep thoughts from a shallow man, - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:49:33 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Walter Milliken wrote: > I suppose it's possible that *none* of them could withstand the temptations > of the flesh. But that too, sounds like a design flaw, when the Designer > is supposedly omniscient. If they *all* succumbed, it sure sounds like God > planned it that way. I believe that the Grigori had the same free will as everyone else (which is all, some or none, depending on your personal beliefs). Probably they didn't all indulge, but they were supposed to be the Watchers. They probably were expected to police each other and the ones who didn't get down and dirty probably didn't report the others, either. They were complicit by their silence, so to speak. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:52:07 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Obsession. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edelstein" > It can also be quite irrational. I heard of one man with OCD, for > example, who would seal an envelope, then before mailing it feel > compelled to open it and make sure his daughter wasn't in the envelope. I saw a special on OCD, and one of the women in it did her income tax like thirty times, as well as sending it to various accounting firms, because she just couldn't stand the dread of the IRS coming to get her for fraud. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:04:57 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > > I don't think it likely that this is a side effect. After all, the Grigori, > presumably, were, like other angels, created before Mankind ever existed. Ah, but they weren't. The Timeline states that Grig were created Post Fall. As for the mercutions, well they do have other names - Intersessionsts (forgive my spelling) for one. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:28:38 -0800 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... > Ah, but they weren't. The Timeline states that Grig were created Post > Fall. As for the mercutions, well they do have other names - > Intersessionsts (forgive my spelling) for one. > Trent Ofanite of Doubt Hmm... Yeah, I guess you're right, though I'd swear I remember seeing somewhere else that all the choirs were created at one time, and that the Malakim were the only stragglers. OK. If the Watchers were post-fall, were they neccessarily created by The Supreme Head Honcho himself? Certainly, Archangels have access to the Songs of Creation, and if my memory serves me, it is the Celestial Song of Creation which allows the creation of new choirs. Perhaps the Grigori were the *Seraphim Council's* response to demonkind, and not God's. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:56:28 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... > Trent, Ofanite of Doubt, wrote: > > > Ah, but they weren't. The Timeline states that Grig were created Post > Fall. As for the mercutions, well they do have other names - > Intersessionsts (forgive my spelling) for one. This points out something that I hadn't really thought about before. Every time we have discussed Malak/Mercurian relations on this list, it has always been from the perspective of the Intercessionist standing aside and waving the violence of the Malak on, to deal with the intractably evil human. Green light, go pound on the human. I don't think anyone has ever brought up the other side of the coin, that of the Mercurian stepping in between the human [or any one else] and the Malak, crying "Enough!!! Red Light! Stop!!!!" , of the Mercurian interceding to check-rein the Malak's violence. Mercurians are the Choir of Mercy, of Second Chances. But even Mercy has its bounds, which is why it is permitted for non-Novalian Mercurians to beat the stuffings out of Demons, when that is what is needed and they are sure it is not a human that they are aiming violence at. Tom, Cadre Cherub of Heaven. - -- Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well - Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in hell! "Strange Blood" A Wolfrider's Reflection, by various artists ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:49:19 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... walter Milliken Wrote (and daiv snipped out) > Hmmm... here's a thought. Maybe Lilith is a sort of proto-Grigori > (only a > little closer still to human, such that she's actually accepted by > the > Symphony as one). That could would explain a number of anomalies > about her. > Of course, if that's true, it looks like God had some basic design > problems trying to create a being that shared characteristics of > both > celestials and humans -- none of them turned out very well. Seems > like > straddling that boundary makes the being inherently a little > unstable... > both showed a stronger interest in doing their own thing than > serving God's > Will. > ---Walter > and I ask, Who, exactly, cast the choir out? I would guess / assume it was the Seraphim Council, but I don't think there is a canon answer, since the full details of the story are yet to be published (correct me if i am wrong, of course). and if it was the Seraphim counciul, who was on it at the time? I am thinking that Uriel, in particular, may have been instrumental in the outcasting of the choir. He was always a bit on the enthusiastic side in support of "Purity." (see the purity crusade, for example). The current seraphim council might have a very different take on the subject, all things considered. - -Daiv ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com time to change sig files i do not have a new one make something up then - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:03:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Mercurians & Malakim Uncle Wolf wrote: > I don't think anyone has ever brought up the other side of the > coin, that of the Mercurian stepping in between the human [or any > one else] and the Malak, crying "Enough!!! Red Light! Stop!!!!" A good point. And, if the Malakite doesn't listen, just as nothing prevents a Mercurian from attacking a demon, nothing prevents one from fighting back against an over-enthusiastic Malakite. This is an odd image, perhaps, and one tends to assume the Mercurian will get ripped to shreds, but nothing prevents a Mercurian from having the superior combat ability, though it would require some kind of background unusual for a Mercurian. (Except those of Michael or Lawrence? What do they do? I forget.) Of course, it's at least as likely that the Malakite WOULD listen, and an intense discussion would ensue. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:09:00 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > OK. If the Watchers were post-fall, were they neccessarily created > by The Supreme Head Honcho himself? No, they might indeed have been invented by one or more Archangels. Blandine, after all, has invented a choir of her own, the Menuim. Nothing in the GURPS IN files says who created the Grigori, so there's no canon (or even, um, apochrypha) on it yet. Earl ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 2000 21:19:32 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> The Odor of Sanctity Brilliant, Earl! i don't know how i'd add to that or improve upon it. -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:33:02 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians & Malakim Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Uncle Wolf wrote: > > > I don't think anyone has ever brought up the other side of the > > coin, that of the Mercurian stepping in between the human [or any > > one else] and the Malak, crying "Enough!!! Red Light! Stop!!!!" > > A good point. And, if the Malakite doesn't listen, just as nothing > prevents a Mercurian from attacking a demon, nothing prevents one > from fighting back against an over-enthusiastic Malakite. This is > an odd image, perhaps, and one tends to assume the Mercurian will > get ripped to shreds, but nothing prevents a Mercurian from having > the superior combat ability, though it would require some kind of > background unusual for a Mercurian. (Except those of Michael or > Lawrence? What do they do? I forget.) > > Of course, it's at least as likely that the Malakite WOULD listen, > and an intense discussion would ensue. > > Earl Very intense, if Mercurians of Michael are involved, since they function as the diplomatic corps within the Servitors of War. And good luck hitting the Mercurians of Laurence, since they are the Dodge-ball champions of Heaven -- they can wear you out, as you flail away at them and they dodge, letting you expend your energy until you are willing to listen, which may take a while with two Celestials flailing and dodging, but hey, they're Angels, they've got Eternity to get it right. *g* Wonder how many Mercurians have studied a Celestial version of Hapkido, with block/parries and control/joint-locking maneuvers that can help minimize damage done to an attacker while giving a defender control of the situation without having to resort to punches/brutalizing of the body. Tom, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well - Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in hell! "Strange Blood" A Wolfrider's Reflection, by various artists ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:30:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Odor of Sanctity - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > Brilliant, Earl! Many thanks. > i don't know how i'd add to that or improve upon it. Well, there's the possibility of a celestial deodorant... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:33:32 -0800 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... > and I ask, Who, exactly, cast the choir out? I would guess / assume > it was the Seraphim Council, but I don't think there is a canon > answer, since the full details of the story are yet to be published > (correct me if i am wrong, of course). > and if it was the Seraphim counciul, who was on it at the time? I am > thinking that Uriel, in particular, may have been instrumental in the > outcasting of the choir. He was always a bit on the enthusiastic side > in support of "Purity." (see the purity crusade, for example). > The current seraphim council might have a very different take on the > subject, all things considered. > > -Daiv Canonically, as I understand, Dominic tried them, found them guilty, and the Seraphim Council voted to cast them out. From the GMG, I don't know the page. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:50:10 -0700 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... The fall of the Grigori is not because of a design flaw created by God. The Grigori were made after Metatron was destroyed and after the Fall, so they were the creations of the Archangels. The Archangels are not omniscient. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:01:10 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... - --On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 2:50 PM -0700 ben wrote: > The fall of the Grigori is not because of a design flaw created by > God. The Grigori were made after Metatron was destroyed and after > the Fall, so they were the creations of the Archangels. The > Archangels are not omniscient. > Ben, this tagged off an interesting alarm in the back of my head. To wit: do *they* think they are, to what degree do they think they're running the show, and how much would that arrogance put them in danger of Falling? Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:07:32 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 16:50 -0500 3/15/00, ben wrote: >The fall of the Grigori is not because of a design flaw created by God. The >Grigori were made after Metatron was destroyed and after the Fall, so they >were the creations of the Archangels. I don't think there's any canon to support this view, and I've always had the impression that they were created by God, but I don't remember if there's actually anything in canon about it. (Maybe it's just my reading of "The Eighth Choir and Free Will" box.) As far as Metatron goes, all his destruction did was silence God's voice, not His actions. So this doesn't really indicate anything, one way or the other. The implication (and maybe outright statement) is that the first Malakim were created by God; and I don't know that there's anything that says Archangels can create new Choirs, except maybe minor ones directly associated with their Word (e.g., Blandine's Menunim). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:22:14 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... >As far as Metatron goes, all his destruction did was silence God's >voice, not His actions. So this doesn't really indicate anything, one >way or the other. The implication (and maybe outright statement) is that >the first Malakim were created by God; and I don't know that there's anything >that says Archangels can create new Choirs, except maybe minor ones directly >associated with their Word (e.g., Blandine's Menunim). Though with the Metatron being gone no one can be sure if something is an action of God's or not. The Celestial Song of Creation says it can generate new choirs/bands and that use by a being that is not a Superior is very dangerous. So Superiors can generate choirs/bands. However that creation is going to be aspected by their Word as all actions of a Superior. Which would mean that fully Word free choirs/bands have to be made by God/Lucifer. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation Go here, or else: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:40:44 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Cheesy Artefacts > >I gots here four words, exactly FOUR small words, on why you should love >and adore the Liber Reliquarium until the end of time: > > Forty Slices of Cheese > Didn't an episode of 'The Simpsons' once mention forty slices of cheese..? And, FWIW, do any fellow Brits know that Magic Eight-Balls actually exist as toys in the US? That artefact made much more sense to me when I saw one. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:51:10 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julian Breen" > Didn't an episode of 'The Simpsons' once mention forty slices of > cheese..? I believe it was:L Homer: Sixty-four slices of American cheese.... Ohhh... Sixty-three... Sixty-two... [Scene cuts to next morning] Homer: One... Marge: Homer: did you stay up all night eating cheese again? Homer: I think I'm blind... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:50:14 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts >Didn't an episode of 'The Simpsons' once mention forty slices of >cheese..? Homer went for a midnight snack and ate an entire thing of pre-sliced cheese in one sitting. That's the one your thinking of. >And, FWIW, do any fellow Brits know that Magic Eight-Balls actually >exist as toys in the US? That artefact made much more sense to me when I >saw one. I wasn't aware that it was limited to the US. I used to have one of them, we used it as a game prop for the artifact. It got lost, I'm pretty sure that my little brother stole it. If I still had it I'd be able to ask what happened to it. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation Go here, or else: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:19:07 +1100 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... > Though with the Metatron being gone no one can be sure if something is an > action of God's or not. But if no one "owns up" then it is pretty safe to assume that either, the creator is shy...or abashed cos' he was doing what he shouldn't have been, or it was Mr Big Shiny Diety, himself. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:11:55 -0800 (PST) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> Cheesy Artifacts I really feel that I need to say something about the 40 Slices of Cheese. As a child, my family was disadvantaged (i.e. poor) and on numerous occasions we received government cheese. The government typically gives this out to those on welfare and/or food stamp. Needless to say, at one time or another we fell into one or both categories and I got to partake of the goverment cheese. And let me tell you. I *like* goverment cheese. I miss it, in fact. It's good. It usually has been sitting in a warehouse for several years and is well aged. It's one of the few things that the government does that I can truly say is good. However, government cheese is not sliced let alone sliced into 40 pieces. It comes in a brick shaped form exactly like Velveeta does. While I realize that this is hardly a crushing blow to anyones campaign and it would be easy to rectify in one's campaign by simply changing the description of the 40 Slices of Cheese artifact, I felt I had to mention it. I'm not really sure how many of you out there have had goverment cheese or even seen it but I thought that my possibly unique perception on the matter could be of some minor use to y'all. Long live government cheese. G __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:19:58 -0500 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Well, first off, a big "Howdy" to the list. I've had the IN core book since the limited edition came out - I've still yet to see any core book besides my Angel-edition. But, I haven't had the opportunity to run a game in years. Not In Nomine, at least. But, as luck would have it, that's changed. So, here's my question. One of my players wants to play a Remnant, a former Word-bound Servitor of Zadkiel with the Word of "Protection of the Innocent". Yes, it's a big word. But I'm a nice guy, so I let him go with it. Provisionally. Everyone else is regular 9 force celestials. Now, Remnants keep Rites and Attunements, but not Resonances, which I get. However, I'm trying to figure out how to work his Rites, and just how they work. In 'The Final Trumpet', Gabriel hands out a 5 point(IIRC) Rite to anyone to kill Magog's Servitors. However, it's later noted that it weakened her a lot. So I assume that Rites don't actually create Essence, but just transfer from Superior to Servitor. On the other hand, Orc has his own Rites of Networks. So that leads me to think that when a Servitor fulfills one of the Rites, he gains Essence from the Superior, and that the Superior gains Essence too, enough to pay the Servitor and a little for himself. I dont' think it'll be an issue for a while, since he's not likely to be fixed for a while(at least two adventures, and even then he'll be weak - I'm running the Revelations Cycle campagn), but when it happens, what should I do? Do those Rites give the Word-bound Essence, cost him Essence, or both, when performed by someone else? Many thanks, Aaron Medwin, wanna-be Malakite of Creation ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:26:36 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... >>> No, they might indeed have been invented by one or more Archangels. Blandine, after all, has invented a choir of her own, the Menuim. Nothing in the GURPS IN files says who created the Grigori, so there's no canon. (Earl Wajenberg) The fall of the Grigori is not because of a design flaw created by God. The Grigori were made after Metatron was destroyed and after the Fall, so they were the creations of the Archangels. The Archangels are not omniscient. (Ben) The Celestial Song of Creation says it can generate new choirs/bands (...) So Superiors can generate choirs/bands. (Tim Groth) <<< Okay, so the Grigori could have been created by an AA using the Celestial Song of Creation. An AA not being omniscient, it could explain a design flaw in the new choir. Now assuming that the Celestial Song of Creation only allows a Superior to create a minor choir, the Grigori is considered as the smallest of the major choirs. For my education: is it really considered as a major choir??? I'm not sure... Anyway, Tim also said: >>> However that creation is going to be aspected by their Word as all actions of a Superior. Which would mean that fully Word free choirs/bands have to be made by God/Lucifer. <<< Now what about Eli? Any creation suits his Word. Plus, it is not a secret that Eli likes... hem... "mixing" with humans... One of his rites is to have consensual sex IIRC. Another thing: even if the Celestial Song of Creation allows a Superior to create a minor choir, could Eli's Word have boosted the Song a bit and made the Grigori one of the major choirs? Now, I don't have any of my books at work, but I'd like to check something on the timeline: when were the Grigori made outcast, and when did Eli stop attending the Seraphim Council?? Could there be any relation? This is pure speculation, don't get mad at me. Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:35:37 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> The Bureau I've read something that I found interesting in the French IN book. I can't find it anymore, though (as usual). I really need to summon Vapula and trade my soul for some additional headware memory... Anyway, the thing is called "The Bureau". It is a VERY secret organisation that brings both angels and demons working together for some very special missions. Now I don't remember the french names of the Superiors involved in this organisation (I think Daniel and Dominic were in it), but I'd say the english IN equivalent would be: Angelic side: Dominic, Yves and maybe Jean or Marc. Demonic side: Asmodeus, Alaemon, and maybe Kronos or Valefor. This concept is only for very low contrast games, so if you really like to draw the line between the good guys and the bad guys, don't read any further... Now I'm not a great writer, and my English is not so good. So if someone likes the concept, feel free to improve it. I'd really like to see what Earl can do with this "material"... Here is a short IN adapted summary: Very few Celestials work in this organisation and every one of them will rather get his forces ripped apart, rather than give any information about it. Whenever members of the Bureau have to meet, they do it on the Corporeal plane, in some secret and well hidden place. Once the agents have their orders, they have full autonomy to complete the mission. Rumors have been heard about the organization on the Celestial plane, and none of the (not involved) Superiors likes it. Laurence swore that he would track down the traitors. He even created a special squad of Malakim who spend eternity investigating on this. Officially, Dominic is "outraged" by such an alliance, and is "helping" Laurence in his holy crusade. In spite of Dominic's efforts to mislead the investigation, Laurence's Servitors have succeeded to harm the Bureau a few times. Many agents have lost their souls fighting the Malakim squad. Forces of Hell are trying to uncover the truth as well, but no Demon Prince is half as motivated as Laurence is. Bureau agents are not only hiding from humans, they're also hiding from both Heaven and Hell. Much like outcasts and renegades, but with some help from the inside and a strict supervision of both Asmodeus and Dominic. They will avoid any conflict with their hunters if they can. After all, the poor Malakim are only doing their job, and if they can find any agent, they must be doing it right. Agents will more likely keep a low profile, and will only fight back if the secrecy of the organization is in stake. They're as used to corporeal death as Malakim are, and loosing a force or gaining a level of discord is a small price to pay for the cause. Thanks for reading, Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 07:45:48 EST From: "Angela Smythe" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... >Now, I don't have any of my books at work, but I'd like to check something >on >the timeline: when were the Grigori made outcast, and when did Eli stop >attending the Seraphim Council?? Could there be any relation? Grigori being cast down:11,600 B.C. Eli goes awol: 1957 A.D. There is one idea about the Grigori that has been glossed over. Maybe did did create them to fall some that the forces of heaven would have the Children of the Grigori as deep cover hidden agents. This makes God very dark, and it is not a theory I like a whole lot, but it is a thoery. Personally, I like having free will. Angela ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:49:43 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts > And, FWIW, do any fellow Brits know that Magic Eight-Balls actually > exist as toys in the US? That artefact made much more sense to me when I > saw one. No magic 8-balls? How are you supposed to do your March Madness picks, then? :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:49:39 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Dark God and low contrast > Grigori being cast down:11,600 B.C. > Eli goes awol: 1957 A.D. Okay... so much for my theory. It was worth a try... > This makes God very dark, and it is not a theory I like a whole lot Precisely why I like it. I like the picture of a dark God who manipulates everybody at will... > Personally, I like having free will. Personally, I like the idea of free will being an illusion (as well as right or wrong being only a subjective interpretation whatsoever). I'm pretty much a VERY low contrast-oriented GM. In fact, I don't even fully understand the concept of the Fall as described in IN. Here we are, it's time for me to get some ennemies... I understand that an angel can lose his motivation (leading to disobeying orders or moving away from a Word), which would make him an outcast. I also understand how an angel could gain internal conflict, gain dissonance and ethereal discord by going against his own resonnance. Finally, I understand how an angel could be dragged down by lies and corruption. What I don't understand is how angels can suddenly become demons just because of their dissonance. They've been defending a specific Word and constantly using their resonnance for centuries, something they felt deep inside of them. They've been fighting demons with their courage and selflessness, pushed by the Grace of God. And then, because they don't agree with their AA anymore, or because their personality is changing, they suddenly switch sides, and adopt the resonnance of their exact opposits, and usually obey the orders of the opposit DP. They start defending what they've always been fighting against, they become hatefull, selfish and cruel. Well, I don't get it. Why is it so hard to change Superior, and why can't an angel change his choir? I mean choir defines the very nature of an angel. The way he acts, the way he feels, the way he's bound to the Symphony. If his nature and feelings change (because of external events and personal experience), why can't he adopt a different behaviour and a different point of view? Why do these changes have to destroy him? IMHO, choirs are merely a way to classify angels (sorted on their nature), it is not a limitation for the mind and personality. It's not because an angel is an Ofanite that he must always be in motion, it's because he's always in motion that he is an Ofanite. If some day he stops moving, well, he becomes something else... but he should still be an angel. Another example is David's Fall of Gabriel. Which I loved, really!! And I'd love to GM it if I get the right players some day. But still, I don't see how Gabriel could become this "cold", selfish, wrathfull and mercyless creature, when you know the love and hope that she spread among both humans and angels. I see her (the original Gabriel) as the most loving and loved being on the Celestial plane. She is completely devoted to Goodness toward the innocent. Even pushed by her madness, how could she suddenly become the Demon Princess of wrath?? Once again, I really liked your writing David, but I just can't understand it. I know angels don't Fall every day, and that my summary is a bit naive and simplist. I also know that when an angel Falls, it doesn't happen that fast: he first becomes an outcast, and then CAN become a demon (after some time). But IMHO, the last step should only happen very very rarely. Switching sides should be a very exceptional thing. Therefore there should be way more outcasts and renegades, and they shouldn't be hunted the way they are in IN. Note that this is only my humble opinion, and I'm not trying to convert anybody. Also, I apologize for the length of the mail. Laurent. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1554 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.