From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 17 03:19:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA28201 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:19:29 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id DAA00710 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:15:45 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:15:45 -0600 Message-Id: <200003170915.DAA00710@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1555 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 17 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1555 In this digest: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> Dark God and low contrast Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts Re: IN> The Bureau Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> The Bureau Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... IN> Eli as Eris? Re: IN> Dark God and low contrast RE: IN> Eli as Eris? IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... RE: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> The Odor of Sanctity Re: IN> Pyrates of the Marches! Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> What books to get? Re: Melchizedek (was Re: IN> Grigori, and their children...) Re: IN> What books to get? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:09:45 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Aaron Medwin wrote: > Do those Rites give the Word-bound Essence, cost him Essence, or both, when > performed by someone else? If a Word-bound celestial gives one of his Rites to another, then every time the other performs his Rite, it comes straight from HIS Essence supply. Which is why Word-bound are very choosy about who they give their Rites to. (Yes, this applies to Superiors to, but in their case, there's an "economy of scale" -- all the Servitors performing their Rites results in a net *increase* in the amount of Essence coming back to the Superior.) This is detailed in the GMG, btw. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:11:36 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Laurent wrote: > Okay, so the Grigori could have been created by an AA using the Celestial Song > of Creation. Possible -- but I get the strong implication from their writeup in the main book that they were part of GOD'S design. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:38:48 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Some thing I thought of a while ago: what about those Grigori that were in Trauma when the entire Choir was Outcast? Are they summarily Outcast as soon as they wake up? Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:14:38 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... >From: Sam Kington >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... >Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:38:48 +0000 > >Some thing I thought of a while ago: what about those Grigori that were >in Trauma when the entire Choir was Outcast? Are they summarily Outcast >as soon as they wake up? > I'd say that they were, unless you had a really neat plot idea for it ;) Thing is, if there weren't many of them, it's quite possible that none were in trauma. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:40:16 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Dark God and low contrast Remember that angels and demons are limited beings compared to humanity. If a human does something against their self view they may feel some discomfort and can change their view, justify their action a different or assosiate the discomfort with something else. Some people don't even care if they have a consistent self view or not. Angels and demons lack this luxury. They are their Choir/Band as it intersects with the Word they serve. The dissonance conditions of their Superior aren't arbitrary rules to keep servitors in line, they are direct out growths of the Word. Superiors can inflict dissonance on their servitors in their presence, but dissonance conditions strike regardless of whether or not the Superior knows it was vioalted. This growing discomfort in a celestials psychological space can be resolved either by affirming their nature (special choir/band dissonance removal), resetting their world view (working at a tether), dumping it into something else (Discord) or by changing their nature (Falling/Redemption). Eventually an angel with dissonance is no longer comfortable as an angel, Falling gets rid of the dissonance. Demons can't just Redeem spontaniously (somedthing to do with the fact that their broken and don't know how to fix themselves), however those who suffer from enough dissonance realize their broken and go get fixed. Switching Superiors is hard because of politics, and there is also the fact that most celestials don't want to switch. Those who do are seen as slightly odd, which slows the proccess up even more. About switching choir/band its bee established that only God and maybe Lucifer can pull that trick off. The problem is not so much in realigning the Forces but keeping the celestial the same individual through out (the reason why humans can't become celestials). I agree that swapping sides probably doesn't happen all that often, with the middle stages being more common. That population is of course kept down by Dominic, Asmodeus and the dangerous jobs they get handed because no Superior wants it traced back to them. Also remember, most celestials go out of their way to avoid dissonance. Most dissonance is accumulated from no win situations, there is no advantage to accumulating dissonance and its not a pleasent experience. This makes most celestials avoid it like the plague. About David's write up of the Fall of Gabriel (which I read a little while ago and don't remember clearly, what's the link?) demons are not kind. If you stoped a bunch of random demmons and asked them about what they did during the day you'd probably not get that many kind and generous acts reported (except from the Balseraphs). Those that were reported would be actions towards friends, and actions with a potential for personal reward later. Demons, when In-Nomine is played forward, are selfish and don't like humanity. They lack a connection with the Divine, they have their own symphony that drowns out the Symphony and they are peversions of their former angelic self. Gabriel may have been very kind when she was an angel, just as Lucifer was probably a nice angel, I'm sure Kobal was a great guy too. That part of them is stripped away in the proccess of Falling and when their nature changes its gone from them. Poof. No more instincts of selflessness, the choir nature gives way to the band nature. Fallen Word bound also lash out against their Word, at least its divine interpretation. Andrealphus is one of the best examples of it, he is also the Fallen Word bound most interested in stamping out his divine Word. Anyway I also appologize for the length of this email, I just thought I should repsond to your questions/opinions with my understanding of things. Falling/Redemption can be handled in numerous ways, and like the way that you define Divine Interventions it can have an impact on the game. The less angels have to worry about Falling the more brutal and demon like they behave. If Redemption is safer than normal more demons will swap sides. And that's all I've got to say about that. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation Go here, or else: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:27:39 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question welcome to the list. Rites draw Essence from whoever gave the right, usually a Superior, but sometimes a minor or major Wordbound. But here's the tradeoff: something that's a Rite is something that promotes the Word, so, yes, it does create an Essence circle. it's kind of like a Celestial kick-back for promoting a Word. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:37:16 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF > Okay, so the Grigori could have been created by an AA using the Celestial Song > of Creation. An AA not being omniscient, it could explain a design flaw in the > new choir. > Now assuming that the Celestial Song of Creation only allows a Superior to > create a minor choir, the Grigori is considered as the smallest of the major > choirs. For my education: is it really considered as a major choir??? I'm not > sure... Where are they specifically said to be a major choir? all the references i can think of (need to get more doubles for work) just mention them as the "most human of the choirs". > Anyway, Tim also said: > >>> However that creation is going to be aspected by their Word as all actions > of a Superior. Which would mean that fully Word free choirs/bands have to be > made by God/Lucifer. <<< or perhaps as a joint effort of the Seraphim COuncil. If they all put their hands into it they would be rather balanced as for Word tendancies. Which might also explain why the SC took it upon themselves to OUtcast them all...the creators punishing their creation? > > Now what about Eli? Any creation suits his Word. Plus, it is not a secret that > Eli likes... hem... "mixing" with humans... One of his rites is to have > consensual sex IIRC. > Another thing: even if the Celestial Song of Creation allows a Superior to > create a minor choir, could Eli's Word have boosted the Song a bit and made the > Grigori one of the major choirs? hmm...interesteing idea. especially since we don't know much about Eli from before he went AWOL. and don't forget that Eli is arguably the second or even the most powerful Archangel (Creation is one hell of a Word). > > Now, I don't have any of my books at work, but I'd like to check something on > the timeline: when were the Grigori made outcast, and when did Eli stop > attending the Seraphim Council?? Could there be any relation? i doubt it..we're looking at at least 2000 years. Eli only went AWOL around the 1940's. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:16:01 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts >> And, FWIW, do any fellow Brits know that Magic Eight-Balls actually >> exist as toys in the US? That artefact made much more sense to me when I >> saw one. > >No magic 8-balls? How are you supposed to do your March Madness picks, >then? :) > >- - Em > You crazy Americans... :) OK, what on earth is a 'March Madness pick' then? - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:25:20 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cheesy Artefacts > You crazy Americans... :) > > OK, what on earth is a 'March Madness pick' then? http://www.espn.com Yes, it was a sports reference. Today is the first day of the NCAA Tournament. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:52:01 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> The Bureau >I've read something that I found interesting in the French IN book. I can't find >it anymore, though (as usual). I really need to summon Vapula and trade my soul >for some additional headware memory... The main stuff about it is in _Rigor Mortis_. >Anyway, the thing is called "The Bureau". It is a VERY secret organisation that >brings both angels and demons working together for some very special missions. For those who are curious: the INS/MV version is a collaboration between Dominique (AA of Justice) and Andromalius (DP of Judgment, who occupies the same sort of role as Asmodeus in IN/SJG). There are two sections. Section A is the handpicked top agents, incredibly skilled, very efficient, ultra-loyal, keeping their mouths zipped shut. This section is run by an angel of Dominique. The second section, Section B, is run by a demon of Andromalius, and contains the "cannon-fodder", to be frank. Celestials from both sides under postponed sentences of death for treason, heresy, insubordination, half a dozen other things . . . which is temporarily commuted, _while they serve_. They might even win a pardon. Some day. Section B is not a fun section to work in. The headquarters (in Paris, naturally) is well-guarded, and looks like just a secondrate government office. Yeah, right. There's even a special room there, set up as a meeting area, with a table and two chairs. Guess who _they're_ for. (However, in INS/MV continuity, the Bureau recently got closed down (or rather, blown up) following an overly-close investigation by Laurent (no, Dominique hadn't told him anything), and the agents are either working personally for Dominique and Andromalius, or on the run. But now they're being collected up. By someone. (No, we haven't officially been told by whom yet. Dammit.)) And I agree, it's a great organisation. Check out the big scenario in _Rigor Mortis_, involving a supernatural dolphin entity, the release of the Antichrist, the characters having to offer testimony to the Seraphic Council, and an offer from Dominique to join Section A . . . - --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:40:21 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... > Dennis Groome wrote: [snip] > i doubt it..we're looking at at least 2000 years. Eli only went AWOL around > the 1940's. Uh, try 13,000 years -- 11K on the BCE/BC side of the the scale, 2 on the CE/AD side. Interestingly, though, IIRC, 11K BC was about the time that the Neanderthal was replaced by Cro-Magnon [or vice versa, I never can keep that straight]. Coincidence, or are all CM and their descendants Nephalim? Could this be the problem -- God-formed Neanderthals interbreeding with Grigori, with their nearly-fully human [less Celestial ancestry passed down] children being Cro-Magnons? Talk about messing up Heaven's experiments!! God no doubt nearly cleared the lab and hit the reset button, with the apple and then *this*. No wonder He re-wrote the Experiment, selecting out Noah and his family, then Flooding the rest of the world. Of course, this is only *one* way of running this, YMMV, IMO, yadda-yadda et cetera and so forth. Tom, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well - Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in hell! "Strange Blood" A Wolfrider's Reflection, by various artists ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:50:45 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> The Bureau Genevieve Cogman wrote: > > > And I agree, it's a great organisation. Check out the big scenario in _Rigor > Mortis_, involving a supernatural dolphin entity, the release of the > Antichrist, the characters having to offer testimony to the Seraphic > Council, and an offer from Dominique to join Section A . . . It's not fair! I wish I could read French!! Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:42:29 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 15:49 -0500 3/15/00, David Barr wrote: >and I ask, Who, exactly, cast the choir out? I would guess / assume >it was the Seraphim Council, but I don't think there is a canon >answer, since the full details of the story are yet to be published >(correct me if i am wrong, of course). Well, it would pretty much have to be God or the Council, and it's not listed in canon as one of God's rare personal appearances, so I've assumed the Council. (That's also consistent with the comments in "The Eighth Choir and Free Will" box, where it's implied that this may all have been intended by God.) >and if it was the Seraphim counciul, who was on it at the time? I am >thinking that Uriel, in particular, may have been instrumental in the >outcasting of the choir. A good point. Though Laurence would not have been, so it was probably Dominic, Uriel, and David who pushed the issue. >The current seraphim council might have a very different take on the >subject, all things considered. I'm not sure if it would be all *that* different. In fact, Eli, who would have been most likely to be on the Grigori's side originally, is now a non-player in the Council. About the only champions I could see for them now would be Novalis, and maybe Janus (mostly just to change the status quo). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:47:29 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 16:09 -0500 3/15/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > >> OK. If the Watchers were post-fall, were they neccessarily created >> by The Supreme Head Honcho himself? > >No, they might indeed have been invented by one or more Archangels. >Blandine, after all, has invented a choir of her own, the Menuim. >Nothing in the GURPS IN files says who created the Grigori, so >there's no canon (or even, um, apochrypha) on it yet. Actually, I read the box "The Eighth Choir and Free Will" as *implying* that God did it, since it makes more sense that way -- that text is much weaker if you presume the AAs invented them. But that's only an interpretation, and there's no outright canon on the matter that I know of. I guess I'll have to ask the LE what she has in mind. Besides sleep... the baby is consuming a lot of her time right now.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:51:11 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 18:22 -0500 3/15/00, Tim Groth wrote: >Though with the Metatron being gone no one can be sure if something is an >action of God's or not. Actually, interventions are fairly clearly actions of God or Lucifer, and the Council didn't have any problem recognizing his interventions in the trials of Michael and Uriel, so I'd assume His actions are pretty unambiguously His. Besides, if a whole new Choir of angels popped up, who *would* you suspect was involved? >The Celestial Song of Creation says it can generate new choirs/bands and >that use by a being that is not a Superior is very dangerous. So Superiors >can generate choirs/bands. However that creation is going to be aspected >by their Word as all actions of a Superior. I guess I need to go read that section of the Canticorum again. I'd forgotten that Song. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:19:11 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 5:26 -0500 3/16/00, Laurent wrote: >Now assuming that the Celestial Song of Creation only allows a Superior to >create a minor choir, the Grigori is considered as the smallest of the major >choirs. For my education: is it really considered as a major choir??? I'm not >sure... Supposedly anything in the main book is a major Choir. They're also referred to as "the eighth Choir" in a few places, though it's also said that there are many minor Choirs. So I'd have to place them as major. (This was also involved in the consideration of including them in GURPS IN -- if they were a major Choir, they should be there, while a minor one shouldn't. We wound up including them....) >Now what about Eli? Personally, I wouldn't put any act of creation past Eli. But if he'd been responsible, I think the creation of the fallible Grigori would have been added to the charges Dominic has against him, and nothing is said about that. So I have to assume he wasn't involved, at least directly. >Now, I don't have any of my books at work, but I'd like to check something on >the timeline: when were the Grigori made outcast, Sometime not too long after the Fall (relatively speaking), I think -- the actual date is probably in the GMG. > and when did Eli stop >attending the Seraphim Council?? Sometime between 1900 and 1950AD, I think. > Could there be any relation? Doesn't seem close enough together to be related. Though you never know, with Eli.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:20:47 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 7:45 -0500 3/16/00, Angela Smythe wrote: >There is one idea about the Grigori that has been glossed over. Maybe did >did create them to fall some that the forces of heaven would have the >Children of the Grigori as deep cover hidden agents. I think that's roughly what "The Eighth Choir and Free Will" is trying to imply as a possibility. Or at least that's how I read it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:22:25 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 10:38 -0500 3/16/00, Sam Kington wrote: >Some thing I thought of a while ago: what about those Grigori that were >in Trauma when the entire Choir was Outcast? Are they summarily Outcast >as soon as they wake up? I would presume so. I suspect the Council debate on the issue lasted long enough that most Trauma cases would have woken up before the final sentence was pronounced. And if there were only a few Grigori (hundreds), then there might not have been anyone in Trauma at the time. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:26:31 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 11:37 -0500 3/16/00, Dennis Groome wrote: >Where are they specifically said to be a major choir? They aren't, per se, but then I don't think the other major Choirs and Bands are stated to be so, specifically. Also, calling them the Eighth Choir in a few places strongly implies that they're comparable to the main seven, as opposed to being one of the many minor Choirs the main book alludes to. >or perhaps as a joint effort of the Seraphim COuncil. If they all put their >hands into it they would be rather balanced as for Word tendancies. Which >might also explain why the SC took it upon themselves to OUtcast them >all...the creators punishing their creation? Yeah, thats's possible, but I'd be more inclined to think that the Council would be likely to simply destroy them in that case; but if God made them, the Council would tread more warily, in case they were important. After all, God knows what He's doing, right...? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:04:21 -0800 From: "Matthew W." Subject: IN> Eli as Eris? Has anyone ever thought of the implication of this match up: - - Eli goes AWOL in 1957, presumably off implementing mysterious plan/plotting/having fun. - - Eris appears before Malaclypse the Younger in 1959 and inspires the Principia Discordia. What exactly does Eli's female vessel look like? :) I've always thought the Principia was an Creationer kind of thing. Pure rambling creative philosophy in a nice eye-candy format. = Mathus = = Demon of Rants = # Current Role: Matthew W. (MIB #3875) # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:06:16 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Dark God and low contrast At 9:49 -0500 3/16/00, Laurent wrote: >What I don't understand is how angels can suddenly become demons just because of >their dissonance. They've been defending a specific Word and constantly using >their resonnance for centuries, something they felt deep inside of them. They've >been fighting demons with their courage and selflessness, pushed by the Grace of >God. And then, because they don't agree with their AA anymore, or because their >personality is changing, they suddenly switch sides, and adopt the resonnance of >their exact opposits, and usually obey the orders of the opposit DP. They start >defending what they've always been fighting against, they become hatefull, >selfish and cruel. Well, I don't get it. They way I look at it, angels are sort of like crystals -- pure and harmonious organizations of Forces. When they act against their natures, they're putting stresses (dissonance) on that crystalline structure, and it begins to crack (resulting in Discords or Outcasting). When enough fractures happen, the whole thing suddenly collapses into a very different state (Falling). Think of a quartz crystal in a hydraulic press.... It's not an exact analogy, but I think it conveys the basics. >Why is it so hard to change Superior, and why can't an angel change his choir? Changing Superior is simply a political hassle, and most angels don't ever want to. Wanting to is often a sign of other problems -- why is the angel changing in that way? >I >mean choir defines the very nature of an angel. The way he acts, the way he >feels, the way he's bound to the Symphony. And when that's stressed too much, he changes state to a demon, which is a warped reflection of his original nature. To use another analogy, think of Choirs like species -- you can't change a horse into a leopard easily, even if the horse *wants* to be one. But it's not too hard to change a placid saddle horse into a raging killer horse -- just give it a nice brain tumor. Or maybe just a very painful cancer. Or rabies. > If his nature and feelings change >(because of external events and personal experience), why can't he adopt a >different behaviour and a different point of view? For the same reason a horse can't become a leopard -- his "physical" structure (Force configuration) simply doesn't allow that change. > Why do these changes have to >destroy him? Because they're inherently disruptive of his somewhat-fragile structure. > IMHO, choirs are merely a way to classify angels (sorted on their >nature), it is not a limitation for the mind and personality. It's not a *total* limitation, but it's pretty close. You don't find a lot of vegetarian wolves -- they're just not built that way. There's still a lot of scope for personal variation, but there are some fundamentals that simply can't be changed easily (and for those that manage to change them, they're a radical departure from normal). > It's not because >an angel is an Ofanite that he must always be in motion, it's because he's >always in motion that he is an Ofanite. It may be that that's why he fledged that way (if he started as a reliever), but once he made that change, it became "hard-wired". He can no more stand still than a horse would suddenly decide to become carnivorous. > If some day he stops moving, well, he >becomes something else... but he should still be an angel. Why? He's denying his nature, forcing himself against his very structure. Why should angels be plastic that way? Rather, they *shatter*, going through the state-change to demonhood. >I know angels don't Fall every day, and that my summary is a bit naive and >simplist. I also know that when an angel Falls, it doesn't happen that fast: he >first becomes an outcast, and then CAN become a demon (after some time). But >IMHO, the last step should only happen very very rarely. Switching sides should >be a very exceptional thing. This is basically a GM decision for his campaign. For the record, I agree with you -- changing sides, either way, should be infrequent. Otherwise, with immortal beings like celestials, they'd *all* change sides sooner or later, if the probability of doing so were very high. > Therefore there should be way more outcasts and >renegades, and they shouldn't be hunted the way they are in IN. I don't see how this follows. If an angel tends to want to deny his nature enough to become an Outcast (which generally takes repeated acts of rebellion against his own nature and/or his Superior's), it seems fairly likely he'll take the next step. I.e., there's no reason to presume he'll suddenly stop being a rebel once he goes Outcast. Likewise, I don't see why they shouldn't be hunted -- they're basically rebelling against their own position in the Symphony, in order to get as far as being Outcast. That's not too far from what the original Fall was about -- elevating one's own personal opinion above God's intent. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:28:06 -0800 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> Eli as Eris? > - Eli goes AWOL in 1957, presumably off implementing mysterious > plan/plotting/having fun. > - Eris appears before Malaclypse the Younger in 1959 and inspires the > Principia Discordia. Ooo, I like. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 2000 23:52:07 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) this thread has made me wonder: what happens to an Outcast or Renegade who winds up toast on the corporeal plane? there's no heart, so they don't go back to their respective side of the celestial plane. i'm guessing they land straight in Limbo, generating a new body over the next couple thousand years, but once they have one, how to descend to earth once more? they're cut off from tethers unless they're *really* sneaky. and isn't Limbo somehow connected to both Heaven and Hell? how do they get out of Limbo without facing major opposition from their former superiors? i guess the bottom line is, if you go renegade or outcast, _don't get vessel-killed._ -=|horsefly|=- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:14:38 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... - --- Walter Milliken wrote: >The current seraphim council might have a very different take on > the > >subject, all things considered. > > I'm not sure if it would be all *that* different. In fact, Eli, > who would > have been most likely to be on the Grigori's side originally, is > now a > non-player in the Council. About the only champions I could see > for them > now would be Novalis, and maybe Janus (mostly just to change the > status > quo). > ---Walter > I was think specifically of Jordi (his perspective is pretty radically different from the other AA's, as a rule) and Gabriel (espcially if she was feeling prophetic, or thought that outcasting was Cruel). Although, I am not sure off hand she is part of the council at the moment, with that self imposed exile. Uhm... Yves, since he tends to be concerned with the destiny of individuals, might object to outcasting the whole of the choir. In the final analysis, though, I am only guessing, based on not enough evidence; not enough has been written about them to much of anything for sure. So, on the one had there is a lot of room to run with them in a campaign and stay within the boundaries of canon (or at least not violate written canon...) and when the book of the grigori (whatever it may be) is written you are likely to have a big seller on your hands. so why are you talking to me? Go write the book (in your Copious Spare Time...)! - -Daiv ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com time to change sig files i do not have a new one make something up then - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:13:23 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... Walter wrote: > Well, it would pretty much have to be God or the Council, and > it's not listed > in canon as one of God's rare personal appearances, so I've assumed > the Council. (That's also consistent with the comments in "The Eighth > Choir and Free Will" box, where it's implied that this may all have > been intended by God.) From memory, Dominic cast the Grigori out, supposedly with the backing of the Seraphim Council. It's listed under his successes in Superiors 1. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:53:58 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> The Odor of Sanctity > Some Saints, and even some mundanes on the Saint track, have a special > air about them, called the Odor of Sanctity... Nice. Consider it swiped, modified, and adopted. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:16:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Pyrates of the Marches! In article <00a101bf8def$7b1d9660$7b0150c3@q1e2t6>, Genevieve Cogman wrote: > I'm afraid you'll have to do that yourself, though I'd suspect the > principals are all 11-12 Forces. And I would _really_ recommend the book > -- especially as it includes the heroes, too! Dammit, I'm going to have to read it again to work out what sort of Swordy Long Ben Avery is. I knew there was a reason I had a spare copy :-) - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:28:28 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... At 2:05 PM -0500 3/15/00, Walter Milliken wrote: > >One other tidbit that's in the GIN writeup (and may be referenced somewhere >in IN canon, though I don't recall for certain): there was at least one >Grigori Superior, the Archangel of Song. Mm. That doesn't appeal to me (like it has to ), mostly because Isafral as Angel of Music has a Word above it, yet she's not yet an Archangel. If there's a Grigori Archangel, I'd prefer to see David Edelstein's Archangel of Death get the nod instead. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:01:35 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children... From: Walter Milliken > They don't have a Band name (probably because they're too few to form a > real Band), though they are called the Skulkers. aaargh, please no. i'm very excited at the idea of grigori stuff, but "The Skulkers" sounds like a b-grade punk band liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:35:50 -0500 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question > Aaron Medwin wrote: > > Do those Rites give the Word-bound Essence, cost him Essence, or both, when > > performed by someone else? > > If a Word-bound celestial gives one of his Rites to another, then every > time the other performs his Rite, it comes straight from HIS Essence > supply. Which is why Word-bound are very choosy about who they give > their Rites to. (Yes, this applies to Superiors to, but in their case, > there's an "economy of scale" -- all the Servitors performing their > Rites results in a net *increase* in the amount of Essence coming back > to the Superior.) Ahh. Thank you. > This is detailed in the GMG, btw. Ahh. Well, maybe if I waited another week for the book to show up, I'd know. :) > -David - -Aaron Medwin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:18:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question At 2:19 AM -0500 3/16/00, Aaron Medwin wrote: >So, here's my question. First answer -- you want to buy the GMG. This has just about all you need to know... O;> >In 'The Final Trumpet', Gabriel hands out a 5 point(IIRC) Rite to anyone to >kill Magog's Servitors. However, it's later noted that it weakened her a >lot. So I assume that Rites don't actually create Essence, but just transfer >from Superior to Servitor. Correct. >On the other hand, Orc has his own Rites of Networks. This comes from his own Essence. (There is a suggestion kicking around, IIRC at 1am after being braindeadtired, that a Superior may let a Wordbound tap _his_ store for an instant refill. Maybe.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while running back and forth to the hospital to visit her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Don't believe it -- she's already Charming the nursing staff!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:28:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What books to get? At 2:14 AM -0500 3/14/00, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: > The Marches still has the >best information on the Ethereal Plane, but the "Ethereal Player's Guide" >will be out soon, and it'll eclipse that info COMPLETELY, I'm sure (just >like the CPG completely eclipsed the stuff in Night Music, along with the >Marches' sorcery rules). Actually, not _completely_ -- there's some stuff that just doesn't count as EPG material. But I have plans... (If you want a hint about those plans, realize that the Rev cycle was using 550-600 words per page, and the new IN standard is 600-650 wpp. Now, chop out the adventure, the writeups, and anything else that's not totally on target... (Now I get to play the GM trick of letting the players theorize in front of her and swiping the best ideas...)) >Fall of the Malakim, however, is horse doody. Bad, bad, BAD book. (Well, bad adventure, certainly. Surely the Geas clarifications weren't bad? (And, as you'll hear me say many a time, I wasn't LE at the time most of that was written. It's not my fault! ) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while running back and forth to the hospital to visit her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Don't believe it -- she's already Charming the nursing staff!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:09:17 +0000 From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: Melchizedek (was Re: IN> Grigori, and their children...) A.Hamilton writes >That is until the book of Hebrews in the New Testament, where Jesus is >refered to as being a Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. Curioser and >Curioser, no? This weird little tidbit seems ripe for use in In Nomine, >what with all the Corporeal-ized Angels running around. And this post got >to thinking that perhaps Mel was a Grigori or a half-breed of some sort in >the service of the Cause of Heaven? > There is still debate about whether Melchizedek was a specific individual, or a title. The derivation is from two Hebrew words, Melekh=king and Tzedek=priest - hence the NT reference to Jesus as being both king and priest. - -- Mark Baker (L'Ange de l'Abime) aka. Simeon, Mercurian of Novalis aka. Rebekkah, Menunite of Blandine "Some of my best friends are demons. You know where you stand with them." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 05:45:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> What books to get? On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Fall of the Malakim, however, is horse doody. Bad, bad, BAD book. > > (Well, bad adventure, certainly. Surely the Geas clarifications > weren't bad? Nonono, those were good. But those (to me, at least) came under the heading of "Expanded Superior Writeup Stuff", which I excluded from my judgment of the book, due to the Superiorsplatbooks coming out. > (And, as you'll hear me say many a time, I wasn't > LE at the time most of that was written. It's not my > fault! ) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "There he goes - one of God's own prototypes. A high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production... too weird to live, too rare to die." -- Hunter Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1555 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.