From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 21 13:42:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29925 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:42:36 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA11130 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:40:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:40:18 -0600 Message-Id: <200003211940.NAA11130@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1559 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1559 In this digest: Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question IN> Rites & Words IN> In Nomine LARP at AggieCon Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, andtheir children...) Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, andtheir children...) Re: IN> In Nomine LARP at AggieCon Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> Rites & Words IN> The Home Front Re: IN> The Home Front Re: IN> The Home Front ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Mar 2000 23:43:41 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) [snip] thanks, Walter. i'm back to my argument that dying is a Bad Thing for Renegades and Outcasts. question: do Outcasts generally suffer the same ping-pong between Limbo and deathpoint that Renegades do? -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 19:37:49 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question > > I believe the canon answer is: "Usually from his Superior." Promoting the > > Word-Bound's Word normally also promotes his Superior's Word. The Rite > > can also draw on the Word-Bound's own Essence supply, but I believe > > the drain is normally forwarded to his Superior. (The GMG may cover this; > > I don't recall, since it's been a while since I read the Word-Bound rules > > during playtest.) > If a Word-bound celestial gives one of his Rites to another being, then > when that being performs the Rite, it comes from the _Word-bound_ > celestial's Essence supply. > If the Word-bound celestial performs one of his Rites himself, it comes > from his Superior and/or the Symphony. Yes, upon re-reading the rules that does seem to be what it say's. I just don't think it makes that much sense the way I interp. Rites. The Canon ruling seem's to imply that if you perform a certain action that a Word-Bound has decided serves/supports thier word than they will give you a point of Essence. Problem #1: How do they know you've performed a Rite? Canon has put some very strict limits on what a Celestial can sense or not sense and being able to sense a Rite being performed in potentially another realm seems to blow that out of the water. Problem #2: This implies that the Word-Bound has some choice over their ability to give over the Essence. it also doesn't really seem in the overall spirit of the rules for this to be case. The fact that they have to be careful to whom they teach their Rites because they might end up having their Word perverted pretty much seems to be a "bad-enough" case. Problem #3: Given a really powerful Word-Bound, one of those 18-20 Force-almost a superior types. I don't think that it is unreasonable to assume that they have 30 or 40 people who work them directly and would probably know one or thier rites. In one day they could tap out the Word-Bound for all it's essence very easily. What happens when the Word-Bound has no Essence to give? Do the last couple of servants just loose out? I don't think so and if in that case the Essence come from the Superior/Symphony why would it only be that case and not always? I think my interp. makes more sense 1 point Rites are generated from the Symphony, anything over that comes from the Word-Bound. Plus all the Rites need to be discovered ala Songs and if the Word-Bound wants to say that a Rite is worth more Essence than it needs to pony up the extra juice. Mind you some Superiors might do this for favored/powerful servitors in an effort to help bolster that Word. David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 19:08:09 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question > Problem #1: How do they know you've performed a Rite? Canon has put some >very strict limits on what a Celestial can sense or not sense and being able >to sense a Rite being performed in potentially another realm seems to blow >that out of the water. The Word-Bound doesn't go, "Oh this guy did something supporting my Word that I let him do so now he gets an essence." instead the Word-Bound grants the Rite to an individual, performing the Rite opens up the channel between you and the Word-Bound (I remember somewhere in the main book it says Outcasts/Renegades still maintaining their Superiors rites better not perform them cause it'll let on to their location). > Problem #2: This implies that the Word-Bound has some choice over their >ability to give over the Essence. it also doesn't really seem in the overall >spirit of the rules for this to be case. The fact that they have to be >careful to whom they teach their Rites because they might end up having >their Word perverted pretty much seems to be a "bad-enough" case. Once the channel is established they can't just decide to close it for one time, they have to remove the Rite from the person. Considering the Word-Bound will probably only know that a Rite has been performed by the fact they loose an essence. > Problem #3: Given a really powerful Word-Bound, one of those 18-20 >Force-almost a superior types. I don't think that it is unreasonable to >assume that they have 30 or 40 people who work them directly and would >probably know one or thier rites. In one day they could tap out the >Word-Bound for all it's essence very easily. What happens when the >Word-Bound has no Essence to give? Do the last couple of servants just loose >out? I don't think so and if in that case the Essence come from the >Superior/Symphony why would it only be that case and not always? This is an actual problem. I would say that every 5 or so performances of a Rite gives a Word bound the essence from the Symphony, its strengthened their Word enough. If a Word-Bound has enough servants to tap them out they either have a) Too many servants or b) Really ineffective servants. In the first case the Word bound has managed to get assigned more celestials than they need, and they simply don't have the resources to fund the organisation. Superiors are more judicious than this. If the Servitors are merely performing Rites, and that's almost all their doing that supports the Word then maybe they will start running out of essence. Most likely they have other sources of essences as well. Basicly in the case where a Word-bound has no essence and someone performs their rite then the performer probably gets nothing. I just doubt that it comes up much. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation Go here, or else: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:54:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question At 7:37 PM -0600 3/20/00, David Rodemaker wrote: [...] > Problem #1: How do they know you've performed a Rite? Canon has put some >very strict limits on what a Celestial can sense or not sense and being able >to sense a Rite being performed in potentially another realm seems to blow >that out of the water. They just lost some Essence -- and probably in a way that they sensed... SJ once likened this to a "phone number" - do the Rite, the "phone" rings, the Essencemodem transfers the Essence, and the Word-bound in question realizes someone snaffled some. There's a suspicion running around that I can't recall if it was canonized that a Superior could tell _where_ you were, and this is why Renegades don't necessarily _want_ to even try using a Rite... Anyway, consider the Rite like the phone number, or password for the Essence account, or something. It's a metaphysical ablity to say, "Hey, I just did something you'd like. Gimme cookie." > Problem #2: This implies that the Word-Bound has some choice over their >ability to give over the Essence. Sure they do. They can hand out the RIte. Or not. A Superior could almost certainly cut off a Rite, but a lesser Word-bound might not be able to. I think this is in the GMG. > Problem #3: Given a really powerful Word-Bound, one of those 18-20 >Force-almost a superior types. I don't think that it is unreasonable to >assume that they have 30 or 40 people who work them directly and would >probably know one or thier rites. In one day they could tap out the >Word-Bound for all it's essence very easily. What happens when the >Word-Bound has no Essence to give? Do the last couple of servants just loose >out? Yup. If the well is dry, they get the Essence equivalent of the sound a straw makes when the glass is empty. (But if those servitors aren't boosting their boss' Word, what is hey paying them for, huh? Better kick their lousy behinds into action.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while running back and forth to the hospital to visit her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Don't believe it -- she's already Charming the nursing staff!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:03:35 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Rites & Words David Rodemaker wrote: > Yes, upon re-reading the rules that does seem to be what it say's. That is what it says. I wrote it. > I just> don't think it makes that much sense the way I interp. Rites. The Canon > ruling seem's to imply that if you perform a certain action that a > Word-Bound has decided serves/supports thier word than they will give you a > point of Essence. No -- neither Word-bound celestials nor even Superiors are consciously aware of every instance of their Rites being performed and handing out Essence accordingly. A Rite basically acts as a "channel" which allows the performer to tap into the Word-holder's Essence supply. (A lesser Word-bound probably will notice whenever someone performs his Rite because he'll lose Essence, but it doesn't mean he necessarily knows the circumstances or who's performing it. Superiors can probably make themselves aware of individual uses of Rites, but it takes too much concentration for them to monitor it regularly.) > Problem #3: Given a really powerful Word-Bound, one of those 18-20 > Force-almost a superior types. I don't think that it is unreasonable to > assume that they have 30 or 40 people who work them directly and would > probably know one or thier rites. In one day they could tap out the > Word-Bound for all it's essence very easily. Which is why non-Superiors probably DON'T teach their Rites to 30-40 people. Even a celestial with 18-20 Word Forces can only afford to give his Rites to a handful of people. The presumption is that those people will do enough to strengthen his Word to make up for the Essence expenditure. > What happens when the> Word-Bound has no Essence to give? Those who perform the Rite get nada. > I think my interp. makes more sense 1 point Rites are generated from the > Symphony, anything over that comes from the Word-Bound. Feel free to use that interpretation in your games, but it's not canon. > Plus all the Rites> need to be discovered ala Songs Not exactly -- Rites need to be *taught* by the Word-holder, which also involves granting an explicit link to his Word. (Even if you know that one of Laurence's Rites is hunting a demon, that doesn't mean that by hunting a demon, you can now get a point of Essence from him. Laurence has to actually give you the Rite. Ditto for any other Rite.) > and if the Word-Bound wants to say that a> Rite is worth more Essence than it needs to pony up the extra > juice. Most Word-bound can't simply declare new Rites at will. It takes research and discovery on their part to learn new ways of using their Words to coax Essence out of the Symphony, and then they can teach someone else how to perform that Rite to get Essence from *them*. Non-Superior Rites that generate more than 1 point of Essence are probably *very* rare. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:11:27 -0800 From: "Matthew W." Subject: IN> In Nomine LARP at AggieCon It's only five days away, so its a bit late to make travel plans, but I announced it a while back on the list. If anyone of youse guys and gals are planning on being at AggieCon at College Station,TX, the In Nomine LARP is going to be on Friday and Saturday. We even have a website at: members.aol.com/sumitr/index.html = Mathus = = Demon of Rants = = ArchNemesis of Timothy = ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:16:15 -0500 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question From: Elizabeth McCoy > At 7:37 PM -0600 3/20/00, David Rodemaker wrote: > [...] > > Problem #1: How do they know you've performed a Rite? Canon has put some > >very strict limits on what a Celestial can sense or not sense and being able > >to sense a Rite being performed in potentially another realm seems to blow > >that out of the water. > > They just lost some Essence -- and probably in a way that they sensed... > SJ once likened this to a "phone number" - do the Rite, the "phone" > rings, the Essencemodem transfers the Essence, and the Word-bound in > question realizes someone snaffled some. > > There's a suspicion running around that I can't recall if it was canonized > that a Superior could tell _where_ you were, and this is why Renegades > don't necessarily _want_ to even try using a Rite... I think it was - in the FAQ, one question is whether Servitors of the Game can avoid using the extra-essence-at-sundown rite. The answer seems to indicate that anyone avoiding the gaze of the Game needs all the help they can get. > Anyway, consider the Rite like the phone number, or password for the > Essence account, or something. It's a metaphysical ablity to say, "Hey, > I just did something you'd like. Gimme cookie." > > > Problem #2: This implies that the Word-Bound has some choice over their > >ability to give over the Essence. > > Sure they do. They can hand out the RIte. Or not. A Superior could almost > certainly cut off a Rite, but a lesser Word-bound might not be able to. > I think this is in the GMG. I really need it to arrive. *sigh* > > Problem #3: Given a really powerful Word-Bound, one of those 18-20 > >Force-almost a superior types. I don't think that it is unreasonable to > >assume that they have 30 or 40 people who work them directly and would > >probably know one or thier rites. In one day they could tap out the > >Word-Bound for all it's essence very easily. What happens when the > >Word-Bound has no Essence to give? Do the last couple of servants just loose > >out? > > Yup. If the well is dry, they get the Essence equivalent of the sound > a straw makes when the glass is empty. (But if those servitors aren't > boosting their boss' Word, what is hey paying them for, huh? Better kick > their lousy behinds into action.) > --Beth, catching up as she can, while running back and forth to the > hospital to visit her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, > aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. > (Don't believe it -- she's already Charming the nursing staff!) - -Aaron Medwin, wannabe Malakite of Creation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:50:31 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words >>> Even if you know that one of Laurence's Rites is hunting a demon, that doesn't mean that by hunting a demon, you can now get a point of Essence from him. Laurence has to actually give you the Rite. Ditto for any other Rite. (David)<<< Some rites give the performer temporary immunity, IIRC. For example, a rite of Jean would be to stay plugged into a wall socket for 2 hours or so. During that time, the performer is immune to electricity damage (tell me if I'm wrong). Now if the rite is removed from that angel and he decides to try it anyway, he won't get any essence from it, of course. But will he get fried also? That could be a nasty trick to play: make a celestial believe that you are a powerfull being giving him a dangerous rite, but granting him imunity while performing it. As soon as he tries it, he kills himself... MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:41:12 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) At 18:43 -0500 3/20/00, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >[snip] thanks, Walter. i'm back to my argument that dying is a >Bad Thing for Renegades and Outcasts. Yes. > question: do Outcasts >generally suffer the same ping-pong between Limbo and deathpoint >that Renegades do? Their new vessel appears at the point of their prior death, yes. Whether Judgment plays that sort of trick with nailing the Outcast when they come back out of Limbo... that's really a GM call; I don't think there's any canon on the subject. In my game, I'd say that they would be likely to set a watch on the location, since Judgment really wants to haul people back to Heaven for trial, or, if they're a signficant risk, soul-kill them. Sending Outcasts to Limbo isn't really a suitable long-term solution for Judgment, since it probably increases the chances that the Outcast will Fall on his return. The main problem with setting a watch on the death location (for either Judgment or the Game), is that it's servitor-intensive. Most likely, the watcher would have to be either a Djinn or a Cherub; other Choirs and Bands (as well as the lesser spirits) are too likely to get distracted, wander off for a cup of coffee or something, and miss the Disfavored's return. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:52:20 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question At 20:37 -0500 3/20/00, David Rodemaker wrote: > Problem #1: How do they know you've performed a Rite? Canon has put some >very strict limits on what a Celestial can sense or not sense and being able >to sense a Rite being performed in potentially another realm seems to blow >that out of the water. A Rite is a set of actions linked to a Word, and a Word-Bound *is* his Word. The Word permeates all the realms, so there's nothing really surprising about this working inter-realm, in my mind. The tap is sort of at the subconscious level, through the Word-link. Superiors can, I believe, trace such taps by setting part of their attention to watch for a particular Servitor's use, but this is enough trouble that they don't do it lightly. They can also "turn off" a particular user's tap, if they so choose. Remember that a Rite isn't *just* a set of actions -- it's a celestial connection between the Rite-holder and the Word-Bound, though a fairly weak one, compared, say, to being bound into the Word-Bound's service (which only Superiors can do). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:00:20 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words At 4:50 -0500 3/21/00, Laurent wrote: >Some rites give the performer temporary immunity, IIRC. For example, a rite of >Jean would be to stay plugged into a wall socket for 2 hours or so. During that >time, the performer is immune to electricity damage (tell me if I'm wrong). That's correct, though one of Belial's Rites *doesn't* confer immunity to fire, though it more or less requires you to be *in* one. >Now if the rite is removed from that angel and he decides to try it anyway, he >won't get any essence from it, of course. But will he get fried also? I would say yes. > That could >be a nasty trick to play: make a celestial believe that you are a powerfull >being giving him a dangerous rite, but granting him imunity while performing it. >As soon as he tries it, he kills himself... MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Yeah, and then he comes looking for you when he gets out of Trauma.... And then there's Kobal, who'd probably happily hand out stupid *real* Rites, just to see if people were dumb enough to use them. ("For 10 Essence, win a Darwin Award"....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:04:37 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, andtheir children...) Walter Milliken wrote: his return. > > The main problem with setting a watch on the death location (for either > Judgment or the Game), is that it's servitor-intensive. Most likely, the > watcher would have to be either a Djinn or a Cherub; other Choirs and Bands > (as well as the lesser spirits) are too likely to get distracted, wander off > for a cup of coffee or something, and miss the Disfavored's return. Y'think? A reliever with a suitable mindset (a proto Cherub, for example) would be perfect for this. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:04:24 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words > > Yes, upon re-reading the rules that does seem to be what it say's. > That is what it says. I wrote it. Eight words that say volumes... Now that we have all agreed upon what Canon say's... > > Problem #3: Given a really powerful Word-Bound, one of those 18-20 > > Force-almost a superior types. I don't think that it is unreasonable to > > assume that they have 30 or 40 people who work them directly and would > > probably know one or thier rites. In one day they could tap out the > > Word-Bound for all it's essence very easily. > Which is why non-Superiors probably DON'T teach their Rites to 30-40 > people. Even a celestial with 18-20 Word Forces can only afford to give > his Rites to a handful of people. The presumption is that those people > will do enough to strengthen his Word to make up for the Essence > expenditure. I think I'm due for a serious re-reading of the game. My understanding is that the PC's are "the few. the proud, the Celestials that have the special ear/favor/whatever of their Superior." As such they are very, very rare in the fact that they work directly or almost directly for that Superior. The implication is that everyone else is working for another celestial, who works for another celestial, so on and so forth up the Superior. To the best of my recollection it's is suggested that an appropriate reward for *really* helping out a Word-Bound is to mayby be granted one of thier Rites. When I read this and looked at the rest of the rules I said to myself that this meant that those celestials who directly serve a Word-Bound are granted at least one of that Word-Bound's Rites. I admit, nowhere does it say this that I can remember (and I don't think it does actually) but I don't think I'm the first person to make this assumption. Are there any bennies to working for a Word-Bound? How many servitors does a Word-Bound generally have? The game really seems to on the one hand describe Word-Bound as the "officers" of the celestials but at the same time then seems to portray them as lone guns, or even loose cannons. What is the guesstimate ratio of Word-Bound to non-Word-Bound in the Celestial realms? I realize all this changes a great deal on the brightness and contrast of a campaign but what is the semi-Canon version of Heaven/Hell? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:22:45 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words >>> And then there's Kobal, who'd probably happily hand out stupid *real* Rites, just to see if people were dumb enough to use them. "For 10 Essence, win a Darwin Award"....) (Walter).<<< ooooh brilliant!! Must take some notes... Actually, is there any collection of rites anywhere? Are there additional rites in the Superiors X books? I don't like to give the same rite to 2 of my players (serving the same Superior), so I'm always trying to make up some, but it's not easy. Another reason why I'd like additional rites is: I don't thing the rites of the main book are adapted to every choir/band. A collection of rites sorted by Superior and band/choir orientation would be nice. Note: I'm not talking of band/choir limitation!! Just preferences per band/choir. If it already exists, could someone give me the link/book name? Thanks a lot! Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:43:59 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words David Rodemaker wrote: > I think I'm due for a serious re-reading of the game. My understanding is > that the PC's are "the few. the proud, the Celestials that have the special > ear/favor/whatever of their Superior." As such they are very, very rare in > the fact that they work directly or almost directly for that Superior. Broadly true, though how rare "very, very rare" is depends on your game. > The implication is that everyone else is working for another celestial, who > works for another celestial, so on and so forth up the Superior. To the best > of my recollection it's is suggested that an appropriate reward for *really* > helping out a Word-Bound is to mayby be granted one of thier Rites. Yes. A Word-bound might give you a Rite for doing something that, say, helps him gain (or saves him from losing) Word-Forces. Lesser favors might be repaid with Essence or some other gift, but a Rite should be a major reward. > When I> read this and looked at the rest of the rules I said to myself that this > meant that those celestials who directly serve a Word-Bound are granted at > least one of that Word-Bound's Rites. Not necessarily. > The game really seems to on the one hand describe Word-Bound as the > "officers" of the celestials but at the same time then seems to portray them > as lone guns, or even loose cannons. What is the guesstimate ratio of > Word-Bound to non-Word-Bound in the Celestial realms? I realize all this > changes a great deal on the brightness and contrast of a campaign but what > is the semi-Canon version of Heaven/Hell? Canon hasn't even guesstimated, beyond saying that Word-bound celestials are the elite and thus comparatively rare. Personally, I'd make them no more than 10% of the celestial population, and possibly as low as 1%. It is true that the current rules mean that Rites from lesser Word-bounds (particularly those who aren't that powerful, and thus can't afford to have several points of Essence being drawn from them every day) are going to be rare commodities. You could easily change the rules for how Rites and Essence works for your campaign if you want Word-bound to be freer to give out Rites. However, be aware of possible abuses. If you get a Word-bound PC, it's a real problem: "I give all my Rites to all of my friends." Even without Word-bound PCs, though, you could get characters who go around collecting Rites. Lilim could wind up with dozens of Rites and thus a never-ending Essence supply. ("Hmmm, should I use my Rite from the Demon of Flat Beer, or my Rite from the Demon of Buggy Software, or my Rite from the Outcast Angel of Post-Modernism?") - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:58:56 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words >>> Are there any bennies to working for a Word-Bound? How many servitors does a Word-Bound generally have? (David) <<< The way I see it, most of the Celestials start in the service of a Superior (once they've become a proper angel/demon) and are therefore part of the large and anonymous troups directly serving this Superior. With time and devotion, they will become more important, and therefore start "specializing" in some specific aspect of their Superior's Word. They will also get the more focused attention of a powerfull Word-bound Celestial serving the same Superior. And with time and experience, they will keep on specializing until they finally get their own Word and their own Servitors. Now that I think of it, they're something strange in my interpretation... not wrong, just strange... Am I completely out of line?!? Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:59:10 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, andtheir children...) At 11:04 -0500 3/21/00, John Karakash wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: >> Most likely, the >> watcher would have to be either a Djinn or a Cherub; other Choirs and Bands >> (as well as the lesser spirits) are too likely to get distracted, wander off >> for a cup of coffee or something, and miss the Disfavored's return. > > Y'think? A reliever with a suitable mindset (a proto >Cherub, for example) would be perfect for this. Yes, that's true, but such a reliever would probably be close to fledging, if it had that much of the Cherubic attention-focus. And such relievers are almost certain to be less common than Cherubim, simply for statistical reasons. "Younger" ones with a Choir preference would be a bit likely to be distracted by the corporeal realm, I'd think. I admit I was thinking more about imps and gremlins than relievers, when I wrote the above. Unless the demonling were *really* sure of the dangers of missing the returnee, I'd think it would have a tendency to goof off. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:06:03 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine LARP at AggieCon From: "Matthew W." > It's only five days away, so its a bit late to make travel plans, but I > announced it a while back on the list. If anyone of youse guys and gals > are planning on being at AggieCon at College Station,TX, the In Nomine > LARP is going to be on Friday and Saturday. Great! I can't wait to get the chance to play... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:15:13 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words At 11:22 -0500 3/21/00, Laurent wrote: > Actually, is there any collection of >rites anywhere? Not specifically, that I know of. And I very much doubt we'll see the Book of Rites from SJGames.... > Are there additional rites in the Superiors X books? I believe the expanded Superiors writeups (both in the Revelations cycle and the new Superiors books) have a few more Rites, but not a large number. >Another reason why I'd like additional rites is: I don't thing the rites of the >main book are adapted to every choir/band. A collection of rites sorted by >Superior and band/choir orientation would be nice. Note: I'm not talking of >band/choir limitation!! Just preferences per band/choir. > >If it already exists, could someone give me the link/book name? Thanks a lot! I don't think it does; sounds like a useful project for someone, though, to be added to the INC. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:42:39 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words At 11:43 -0500 3/21/00, David Edelstein wrote: >David Rodemaker wrote: >> I think I'm due for a serious re-reading of the game. My understanding is >> that the PC's are "the few. the proud, the Celestials that have the special >> ear/favor/whatever of their Superior." As such they are very, very rare in >> the fact that they work directly or almost directly for that Superior. > >Broadly true, though how rare "very, very rare" is depends on your game. In fact, I believe the main book's intent was that all PCs were "lone agents", (="loose cannons") and rare in reporting directly to their Superior. As the game has evolved, I think most GMs found it more reasonable to have PCs reporting via the Superior's organization, rather than directly, for all but the most critical things. (There's a major problem in the game if Superiors are showing up around PCs all the time....) So the game's original focus on these specially-annointed troubleshooters has shifted to allow a wider range of organizational models. >> When I> read this and looked at the rest of the rules I said to myself that this >> meant that those celestials who directly serve a Word-Bound are granted at >> least one of that Word-Bound's Rites. > >Not necessarily. I agree -- servitors of a Word-Bound still get the Word-Bound's Superior's Rites; they don't *really* need others. So a lesser Word-Bound might grant Rites to a few of his most effective suboridinates, who have helped him advance his Word in major ways. But other celestials working for him can still serve his Word (and thus also his Superior's) perfectly well without his specific Rites. >> The game really seems to on the one hand describe Word-Bound as the >> "officers" of the celestials but at the same time then seems to portray them >> as lone guns, or even loose cannons. What is the guesstimate ratio of >> Word-Bound to non-Word-Bound in the Celestial realms? I realize all this >> changes a great deal on the brightness and contrast of a campaign but what >> is the semi-Canon version of Heaven/Hell? > >Canon hasn't even guesstimated, beyond saying that Word-bound celestials >are the elite and thus comparatively rare. Personally, I'd make them no >more than 10% of the celestial population, and possibly as low as 1%. I'd put it at the low side of David's estimate, in my own game. Remember that granting a Word requires the direct action of the Seraphim Council or Lucifer. They probably don't grant very many Words in a given year. On the other hand, you can run a campaign where there's a Demon of the Third Ragweed from the Left, but that's going to be pretty far out from canon, I think. > You could easily change the rules >for how Rites and Essence works for your campaign if you want Word-bound >to be freer to give out Rites. However, be aware of possible abuses. If >you get a Word-bound PC, it's a real problem: "I give all my Rites to >all of my friends." I think this was the main meta-reason for how Rites are set up; it's quite probable that PCs will want to gain Words in the campaign, and it's very easy for this to get out of hand. If you want Word-Bound to have a bit more Essence than usual, you could perhaps adapt the Tether canon such that if there's a Tether that would be part of a lesser Word-Bound's Word (rather than his Superior's), then he can tap into a bit of the Essence flow from it. The Tether would still really belong to the Superior, but the Word-Bound could tap off a little of the Essence flow via the Word connection between himself and the Tether. Note, however, that Tethers generate a *lot* of Essence, by normal game standards, making anyone who can tap them freely significantly more powerful. You might want to limit such a tap to 1-2 Essence per Force in the Tether, per day. (You could think of such a Tether as a sort of continually-performed Rite.) Many Word-Bound wouldn't have *any* related Tethers, few would have more than one, unless they had a major Word of near-Superior potential. The possiblity of getting such an "affiliated" Tether may be a useful motivator for Word-Bound PCs to continue boosting their Word -- a major celebration of their Word in the Symphony might generate a Tether which a) can be "given" to their Superior (earning brownie points) and b) gives them potentially a lot more Essence to play with every day. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:48:08 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words At 11:58 -0500 3/21/00, Laurent wrote: >The way I see it, most of the Celestials start in the service of a Superior >(once they've become a proper angel/demon) and are therefore part of the large >and anonymous troups directly serving this Superior. With time and devotion, >they will become more important, and therefore start "specializing" in some >specific aspect of their Superior's Word. They will also get the more focused >attention of a powerfull Word-bound Celestial serving the same Superior. And >with time and experience, they will keep on specializing until they finally get >their own Word and their own Servitors. >Now that I think of it, they're something strange in my interpretation... not >wrong, just strange... Am I completely out of line?!? That's probably one way things could work; another is that characters are "apprenticed" to more powerful beings, and tend to specialize in whatever work they're first given. Or they could be assigned very focused and specific tasks in the Superior's organization, and "rotated" around the organization until a niche they fit well is found. However, I probably lean towards your picture above -- celestials start out doing work that requires relatively little special knowledge or ability, and slowly grow more specialized over time as they accumulate experience. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:51:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> The Home Front Recent discussion on the Rite & Words thread brought up the following question: If only a minority of angels get Earth duty, what are the rest of them doing? We know that a lot of Jean's work in the labs, and a lot of Yves's work in the Library, but the rest? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:23:48 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Recent discussion on the Rite & Words thread brought up the following > question: > > If only a minority of angels get Earth duty, what are the rest of them > doing? IMO, here's how it goes: 1) Administrivia - some of this gets offloaded to clever relievers and human souls, though 2) Reserves - this is especially important in Hell where everyone most definitely is not on the same side, but even Heaven has to be prepared to defend itself against invasions 3) Sentinels - see #2 above 4) Training - both trainees and trainers for various duties 5) Healing - Trauma, psychological counseling 6) Planning - All those high-ranking Wordbound or experienced celestials who help plot the course of the War (e.g. the Seraphim Council) 7) Research - both 'book worming' and scientific studies/Song studies 8) Manufacturing - artifacts and whatnot 9) R&R - being on Earth can be stressful and angels need time to overcome the subjective stress 10) Punishment - more applicable for demons... demons generally WANT to be on Earth because Hell, reasonably enough, sucks I've heard various numbers bandied about in RL about how many support personnel are needed per soldier in the field. Ignoring the exact figures (which conflict somewhat), there are still a whole bunch more behind the scenes than on the front lines. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:39:37 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front >From: John Karakash >Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > If only a minority of angels get Earth duty, what are the rest of them > > doing? >1) Administrivia 2) Reserves 3) Sentinels 4) Training 5) Healing 6) >Planning 7) Research 8) Manufacturing 9) R&R 10) Punishment > Oh, and let's not forget: 11) Punishing or Helping those human souls who have 'passed on' and 12) Harvesting Essence (the currency the Celestial realm runs on) - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of Kronos - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1559 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.