From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Mar 22 14:05:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00154 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:05:05 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA08437 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:02:44 -0600 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:02:44 -0600 Message-Id: <200003222002.OAA08437@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1560 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, March 22 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1560 In this digest: IN> More Birthday Gifts Re: IN> More Birthday Gifts Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> The Home Front RE: IN> The Home Front Re: IN> The Home Front Re: IN> The Home Front Re: IN> The Home Front Re: IN> The Home Front Re: IN> The Home Front Re: IN> The Home Front IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell IN> Coast Con Re: IN> Rites & Words IN> A little story I thought you all might like IN> London Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:40:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> More Birthday Gifts We've seen the list of gifts for Io-chan herslef. Here, only a little late, is a list of gifts for her parents: Blandine: Forty nights of unbroken sleep, to be taken as needed. Christopher: A list of readily available baby-sitters. David: The strength for Io-chan to hold her own bottle a full month earlier than otherwise. (And if you don't think that's a good gift, you will soon.) Dominic: The ability to judge when the crying is just to hear herself talk, or existential angst, or some other problem that you can't solve. Eli: Seven gift certificates for consultations on truly creative parenting methods. Gabriel: The services of one of her Mercurians, to talk you out of beating yourself up over your supposed parenting deficits. Janus: He figures your life has been revolutionized quite enough, actually. But he offers some air-freshener for the changing area... Jean: A VCR that withstands having sandwiches inserted in it, and never plays "Barney" or "Teletubbie" videos (or whatever kid-vid pegs your stickiness meter). Jordi: The services of two servitors in sheepdog vessels, in deep-cover Roles in your neighborhood. Laurence: Ten good comebacks for "But it's not fair!" Marc: A total absence of billing hassels from the hospital, insurance company, etc. Michael: Five uses of the Song of Thunder, for when Yves's gift isn't enough (and Michael *knows* it won't be). Novalis: Five uses of her Aura of Peace, to avoid having to use Michael's gift. Yves: Five uses of the Divine Logic attunement, the first to be used in about two years. Offer expires in eighteen years. Zadkiel: A list of really reliable baby-sitters. (Sadly, this list overlaps with Christopher's list on only two names, both of them sheepdogs. See Jordi.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:07:55 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> More Birthday Gifts - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > We've seen the list of gifts for Io-chan herslef. Here, only a > little > late, is a list of gifts for her parents: [snip] > Christopher: A list of readily available baby-sitters. [snip] > Jordi: The services of two servitors in sheepdog vessels, in > deep-cover > Roles in your neighborhood. [snip] > Zadkiel: A list of really reliable baby-sitters. (Sadly, this > list > overlaps with Christopher's list on only two names, both of them > sheepdogs. See Jordi.) > Earl Why am i suddenly getting Mindy and Buttons images in my head? (ref: animaniacs, waner brthers cartoon) ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com time to change sig files i do not have a new one make something up then - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:23:03 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words Walter Milliken wrote: > >Canon hasn't even guesstimated, beyond saying that Word-bound celestials > >are the elite and thus comparatively rare. Personally, I'd make them no > >more than 10% of the celestial population, and possibly as low as 1%. > > I'd put it at the low side of David's estimate, in my own game. Remember > that granting a Word requires the direct action of the Seraphim Council or > Lucifer. They probably don't grant very many Words in a given year. Actually, I meant that Word-bound celestials should make up between 1% and 10% of celestials _on Earth_. As a percentage of the total, they'd be even rarer. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:19:40 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front At 11:39 AM -0800 3/21/00, Erich Arendall wrote: > >Oh, and let's not forget: >11) Punishing or Helping those human souls who have 'passed on' >and >12) Harvesting Essence (the currency the Celestial realm runs on) Am I the only one who simply doesn't accept that Heaven runs on an Essence based economy, but instead runs on a soft currency based economy in those (rare) sections that have economics at all? The idea that Blessed Souls and Angels have to yield up their precious Essence -- the very flow of the divine within them, the bit of hope and luck that drives their activities -- to get a cup of coffee bothers me greatly. It turns Marc and the like into an Impudite, and makes Heaven no intrinsicly better than Hell. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:41:49 -0800 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> The Home Front Economically, there are also problems (rampant inflation, giant quanta) with a currency that you can only carry five of and you get one more every day, as well. And let's not forget that you have no way to send a "check". . . . - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark [mailto:in-sabre@annotations.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 12:20 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Cc: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front At 11:39 AM -0800 3/21/00, Erich Arendall wrote: > >Oh, and let's not forget: >11) Punishing or Helping those human souls who have 'passed on' >and >12) Harvesting Essence (the currency the Celestial realm runs on) Am I the only one who simply doesn't accept that Heaven runs on an Essence based economy, but instead runs on a soft currency based economy in those (rare) sections that have economics at all? The idea that Blessed Souls and Angels have to yield up their precious Essence -- the very flow of the divine within them, the bit of hope and luck that drives their activities -- to get a cup of coffee bothers me greatly. It turns Marc and the like into an Impudite, and makes Heaven no intrinsicly better than Hell. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:52:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front I would think that the "economy" of Heaven would be driven by charity and zeal on the supply side, and by temperance on the demand side. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:15:34 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front >From: Whistling in the Dark >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >CC: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front >Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:19:40 -0500 > >At 11:39 AM -0800 3/21/00, Erich Arendall wrote: >> >>Oh, and let's not forget: >>11) Punishing or Helping those human souls who have 'passed on' >>and >>12) Harvesting Essence (the currency the Celestial realm runs on) > >Am I the only one who simply doesn't accept that Heaven runs on an >Essence based economy, but instead runs on a soft currency based >economy in those (rare) sections that have economics at all? > Oooh, talk economics to me, baby! I was thinking about this. I don't see Heaven as being Essence based for economics; but I could imagine a barter system. Or at least a system by which you can lend your knowledge, experience or spare resources to another angel who needs them to do God's work. Marc's servitors might see a lot of work as go-betweens -- a sort of celestial job-centre. In general, Heaven is the sort of place where if you see someone who needs help, and you are able to help, then you give automatically, without hope of reward or repayment. (Besides which, it must be heretical to want to save Essence for a rainy day. It implies that you don't believe that God Will Provide.) On Earth, it's a different matter. Marc and his angels see themselves as the stewards of the world's wealth, which they are shepherding in God's name. Their duty is to see that material wealth and spiritual wealth are created, and used appropriately. This is good, since pretty much no-one else in Heaven would have a clue as to what that meant. If they waste or fritter money, or lose the chance of a good deal, they are cheating God ... jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:35:19 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front The Important Thing: The essence of Hell flows from souls, essentially. And tethers of course, but Heaven has those. What Hell has for economy that Heaven doesn't is the stream of essence from the souls. But Heaven has something Hell doesn't have, also! At least, IIRC, Heaven has a stream of Essence that flows down Jacob's Ladder from the Higher Heavens. Now, given that fact (if I'm wrong this is somewhat less valid) it becomes understandable that charity, essence-wise, can flow downwards. Everyone gets everything they Need, at least for internal-to-Heaven purposes. But beings often WANT what they don't really NEED. In Heaven, no one would be so selfish as to take that at the expense of something more important. However, each being has their own Essence supply. To some degree they can make/do things for themselves. Marc encourages this. My extra for your extra and we both benefit. Unlike in Shal-Mari, possibly the nicest part of Hell, where the rule is "Give everything you have and maybe get by in return." in Heaven it is "You will always be given what you need and that Mercurian AA over there can help you out if you want more..." Just osme ideas. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:35:03 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front Jo Hart wrote: > Oooh, talk economics to me, baby! Capital investment. Fiduciary responsibility. Short term liquidity opportunity costs. =) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:43:51 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > At 11:39 AM -0800 3/21/00, Erich Arendall wrote: > > > >Oh, and let's not forget: > >11) Punishing or Helping those human souls who have 'passed on' > >and > >12) Harvesting Essence (the currency the Celestial realm runs on) > > Am I the only one who simply doesn't accept that Heaven runs on an > Essence based economy, but instead runs on a soft currency based > economy in those (rare) sections that have economics at all? Heaven runs on Essence... just not at the servitor level. Archangels keep an eye on the bottom line since they are in charge of the War, but most of that is hidden from the angel on the street. In other words, Heaven is like a well-run family (or ruthless dictator ship) where the true economic decisions are made by a central authority (or a small group). Hell, OTOH, everyone knows what the bottom line... HAS to know what the bottom line is since no one will look out for them but themselves and trust is a commodity too expensive for most to afford. It is a ruthless meritocracy/laissez-faire democracy gone horribly awry. > The idea that Blessed Souls and Angels have to yield up their > precious Essence -- the very flow of the divine within them, the bit > of hope and luck that drives their activities -- to get a cup of > coffee bothers me greatly. It turns Marc and the like into an > Impudite, and makes Heaven no intrinsicly better than Hell. Basic needs and even entertainment and help are supplied for 'free' in Heaven, though there may be an implicit understanding for large favors that a favor may be expected in return. Angels and other souls in Heaven who don't have a current need for their daily Essence will probably just 'donate' it to the general fund since, basically, it's free and you can only hold so much. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if someone is full up of Essence while in Heaven that their daily point will be absorbed into the 'heavenly bank account'. Of course, I believe that there are many more people in the Upper Heavens than in Heaven. The extra Essence provided by various Saints and angels is probably dwarfed by that. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:59:24 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front At 16:35 -0500 3/21/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >But Heaven has something Hell doesn't have, also! At least, IIRC, Heaven >has a stream of Essence that flows down Jacob's Ladder from the Higher >Heavens. Actually, I don't recall this, though it might be in Heaven & Hell somewhere. Heaven's economy may be based on a sort of surplus model -- if you have Essence you don't need, you might as well give it to someone who can use it. This may actually result in Heaven having a more efficient collection system than Hell (since Hell has plenty of people who'll "skim" the Essence they collect). "Use it or lose it" economics basically encourages moving the units of exchange around somewhere where they'll do *something*, as opposed to being lost. (Just watch what any government agency does with a budget surplus at the end of the year....) This presumes, of course, that there isn't something useful all those millions of human souls in Heaven can do with their Essence most of the time. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:30:15 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Hell has an enormous essence battery in all those millions (billions?) of damned souls; if each one gives up 1 Essence per day, it adds up fast. How can Heaven match this? Canon doesn't give a clear answer, but there must be one. IMC, I've ruled that most blessed souls in Heaven *voluntarily* give up 1 Essence per day, as a selfless act of charity for the greater good. No one is making them do it; they just do, because that's the sort of people they are. That's why they're in Heaven, after all. Of course, it's not their *last* point. Which leads to a nice symmetry: in Hell, the damned are almost always at either 0 or 1 essence; in Heaven, the blessed are almost always at full essence, or just one point below it. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:53:02 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell At 7:30 PM -0400 3/21/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >Hell has an enormous essence battery in all those millions (billions?) of >damned souls; if each one gives up 1 Essence per day, it adds up fast. How >can Heaven match this? Canon doesn't give a clear answer, but there must >be one. > >IMC, I've ruled that most blessed souls in Heaven *voluntarily* give up 1 >Essence per day, as a selfless act of charity for the greater good. No one >is making them do it; they just do, because that's the sort of people they >are. That's why they're in Heaven, after all. I like that, to be honest, but it's not my Campaign's take. IMC the Light of Heaven is something the Seraphim Council can use to fuel Essence Needs. The reserve isn't limitless, but it's certainly *huge.* Hell had to find a way to bridge the Essence Gap, and discovered they could force the Essence of Mortals from them. And so they started *really* working on getting them damned... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:39:24 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words > Actually, I meant that Word-bound celestials should make up between 1% > and 10% of celestials _on Earth_. As a percentage of the total, they'd > be even rarer. > -David Why, that really doesn't seem to be how Canon has portrayed it. If they are that rare then should be no chance to speak of being granted a Word. That and why in the heck would there even be a "Choking to Death on Chicken Bones" catagory? David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:18:12 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Douglas Muir wrote: > > Hell has an enormous essence battery in all those millions (billions?) of > damned souls; if each one gives up 1 Essence per day, it adds up fast. How > can Heaven match this? Canon doesn't give a clear answer, but there must > be one. Upper Heavens. All the souls that went 'up' are still generating Essence. Presumably, they don't need it and it becomes available for use by Heaven. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:11:01 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: IN> Coast Con Out of curiosity, any SJG, specifically IN, reps going to Coast Con this weekend? - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:53:50 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words David Rodemaker wrote: > Why, that really doesn't seem to be how Canon has portrayed it. If they are > that rare then should be no chance to speak of being granted a Word. Sure there is. You just have to be among the top 1-10%. It's not supposed to be easy. > That> and why in the heck would there even be a "Choking to Death on Chicken > Bones" catagory? 'Cause Saminga liked it...... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:58:39 +1100 From: Brent McCartney Subject: IN> A little story I thought you all might like After creating Heaven and earth, God created Adam and Eve. And the first thing He said to them was: "Don't." "Don't what?" Adam replied. "Don't eat the forbidden fruit." God said. "Forbidden fruit? We got forbidden fruit? Hey, Eve... We got Forbidden Fruit!" "No way!" "Yes WAY!" "Don't eat that fruit!" said God. "Why?" "Because I'm your Creator and I said so!" said God, wondering why he hadn't stopped after making the elephants. A few minutes later God saw the kids having an apple break and was angry. "Didn't I tell you not to eat that fruit?" God asked. "Uh huh," Adam replied. "Then why did you?" "I dunno," Eve answered. "She started it!" Adam said. "Did Not!" "DID so!" "DID NOT!!" Having had it with the two of them, God's punishment was that Adam and Eve should have children of their own. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:25:41 +0200 (EET) From: Mervi H{m{l{inen Subject: IN> London Hello. First post so please be kind. I've been GMing IN for over a year and have now a second group going. I'm going to run the Final Trumpet -campaing to a militant angelic group. However, the starting point is London, not New York. The first adventures are going to be No dinero and very much modified Fall of the Malakim. So, I would like to know what to change in these two adventures to make them fit better to London. I would really appreciate suggestions for places to use as Tethers to Media and Lust. Since I live in Finland I don't really have any experince with US or Britain. On the other hand my players don't have either. Mervi a reliever of Dreams, aspiring to become a Malakite. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:47:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Heaven also gets essence from worship on Earth. According to the GMG, virtually every division of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism generates diffuse, generalized essence for Heaven. Hell, on the other hand, has virtually no such resource; actual Satan-worship is a very rare and transient phenomenon. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:59:46 CST From: "Justin Buhler" Subject: Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell >Hell has an enormous essence battery in all those millions (billions?) of >damned souls; if each one gives up 1 Essence per day, it adds up fast. How >can Heaven match this? Canon doesn't give a clear answer, but there must >be one. I believe the answer would be in the basic in nomine phb where it states that hell is a great vacuum. This could be said about Essence as well, as it must cost a terrible amount to keep Hell afloat, because, IMHO, God surely didn't create Hell, he just banished the fallen, the fallen made Hell, and as such must fuel it and pay the "Property Tax" for such a Celestial acrage. Thus, Hell must pay dues, where Heaven is already paid for its creation. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1560 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.