From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 24 18:42:49 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08920 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:42:48 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA16282 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:41:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:41:08 -0600 Message-Id: <200003250041.SAA16282@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1562 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 24 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1562 In this digest: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. IN> Vaguely on topic.... Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell RE: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. Re: IN> Vaguely on topic.... Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell (Marc Plot thought) Re: IN> Why High Contrast Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? RE: IN> A letter of Introduction Fwd: Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. Fwd: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:38:12 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell > > Economics, but economics for nonessentials. So. Someone want to slash > this, burn this to the ground, dance on its grave and sing "Gypsies, > Beggers and Thieves" over it? Not really. I actually just plan to muse on it and see if it works with my game world. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:06:14 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > Economics, but economics for nonessentials. So. Someone want to slash > this, burn this to the ground, dance on its grave and sing "Gypsies, > Beggers and Thieves" over it? I'm just left with one question: Where did you get the bit about the light of heaven providing essence? I don't see it in the main book. If it is cannon it's probably in H&H which unfortunately I don't have. If so, then you might possibly have a case. Though I don't see why you can't have even a high contrast game where souls decided to donate essence of their own accord. (Though why anyone plays high contrast games is beyond me) Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:26:21 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Matt Trent wrote: >>(Though why anyone plays high contrast> games is beyond me) Because some people don't like playing WoD clones.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:38:11 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell David Edelstein wrote: > > Matt Trent wrote: > >>(Though why anyone plays high contrast> games is beyond me) > > Because some people don't like playing WoD clones.... Well, I don't consider my comic bright low contrast campaign to be a WoD clone. Of course having only played on session of Werewolf might indicate that I don't know anything about WoD and are being influenced by Orbital Mind Control Lasers. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:48:42 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell At 11:06 PM -0600 3/23/00, Matt Trent wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > > > Economics, but economics for nonessentials. So. Someone want to slash > > this, burn this to the ground, dance on its grave and sing "Gypsies, > > Beggers and Thieves" over it? > >I'm just left with one question: Where did you get the bit about the >light of heaven providing essence? I don't see it in the main book. It's not in canon, it's my postulate. Even as there is no "Dark of Hell," there is no Essence for Nothing and the chicks for free down there. It's Heaven's big advantage, in this theory. >Though I don't see why you can't have even a high contrast game >where souls decided to donate >essence of their own accord. Because either it's so strongly "suggested" that it becomes a defacto requirement, or Heaven's doomed. There's no way Heaven can compete with the massive Essence generation of Hell -- to the point of being overrun by the more numerous, better equipped, better supplied, better coordinated forces of Hell, commanded by *massively* more powerful Superiors -- unless they get *all* the Essence from all souls in the Higher Heavens automatically plus insist on getting all the Essence of the blessed in the Lower Heaven. There's no reason, that being said, that a given Blessed Soul might not donate Essence to David freely, or to a friend about to go in the field. That *is* selfless. But if Heaven's going to use collected Essence as a military necessity, then it's the same as Hell, just with a different pitch. Which isn't high contrast, it's low. Besides, Marc then really does become Heaven's Impudite, making Shiny Things to convince the hoards of Heaven to willingly barter their Essence for their goods. >(Though why anyone plays high contrast >games is beyond me) Because the idea of a Heaven and Hell that are the same is, frankly, a bleak and joyless universe devoid of meaning, where the players are just marking time and laughing at the cosmic joke, and that bores the tears out of me. In my opinion, of course. Note that high contrast doesn't mean All Good versus All Bad. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:22:33 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. In a message dated 3/23/00 3:51:02 PM Central Standard Time, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: << > If Kronos bound a Balsperaph's force onto a Soldier of Hell, could that > soldier purchase the band attunement and thus recieve an angelic resonance? >> I've never seen a reason why other Bands couldn't have that resonance. I understand the rationale behind it though. I just wish it were different. An Impudite with the Mercurian resonance would be DANGEROUS in a social situation. :) Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:20:28 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: IN> Vaguely on topic.... This might not have anything to do with In Nomine specifically, but it is religious;y themes and made me laugh my ass off. Check out: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Rooftop/2334/sf20000211.htm Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:29:22 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell >From: David Edelstein >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Matt Trent wrote: > >>(Though why anyone plays high contrast> games is beyond me) > >Because some people don't like playing WoD clones.... > Some people like to experiment with playing characters (OK, angels) who are good in a way no human would ever be (unless they were on E). It's like the way some people like playing psychotic elves with very alien mindsets, or black amorphous blobs from the outermost dimensions, or intergalactic double glazing salesmen. (I just picked those at random as PCs who've turned up in games I played or ran, none of which was deliberately comic) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:32:23 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell >From: Whistling in the Dark >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >At 11:06 PM -0600 3/23/00, Matt Trent wrote: >> >> >>I'm just left with one question: Where did you get the bit about the >>light of heaven providing essence? I don't see it in the main book. > > >It's not in canon, it's my postulate. Even as there is no "Dark of >Hell," there is no Essence for Nothing and the chicks for free down >there. It's Heaven's big advantage, in this theory. > Interesting campaign idea. The Archangels find a way to distill Essence from the light of Heaven, pouring more strength into the divine armies and making great gains in The War. Then, someone finds out that the light of heaven has actually been getting weaker ... even the angels are beginning to show signs of aging, losing their supernatural abilities ... jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:39:25 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell At 11:32 PM -0800 3/23/00, Jo Hart wrote: >> >>It's not in canon, it's my postulate. Even as there is no "Dark of >>Hell," there is no Essence for Nothing and the chicks for free down >>there. It's Heaven's big advantage, in this theory. >> > >Interesting campaign idea. > >The Archangels find a way to distill Essence from the light of >Heaven, pouring more strength into the divine armies and making >great gains in The War. Then, someone finds out that the light of >heaven has actually been getting weaker ... even the angels are >beginning to show signs of aging, losing their supernatural >abilities ... > Ooo... I *like* that.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:55:52 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. In reply to: > I've never seen a reason why other Bands couldn't have that resonance. I > understand the rationale behind it though. I just wish it were > different. An > Impudite with the Mercurian resonance would be DANGEROUS in a social > situation. :) IMO, the reason other Bands can't have that attunement is that it relies on the Balseraph resonance. Not anything as obvious as "Adding Celestial Forces to the target Number", or "Double the duration", but the attunement uses the subtlety of the Balseraph resonance saying "I'm such an evil and effective liar that I can convince the SYMPHONY that I'm an angel". None of the other Bands even have a hope of convincing the Symphony of this, so they can't have the attunement. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:13:34 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. Leath Sheales wrote: > IMO, the reason other Bands can't have that attunement is that it relies on > the Balseraph resonance. Not anything as obvious as "Adding Celestial > Forces to the target Number", or "Double the duration", but the attunement > uses the subtlety of the Balseraph resonance saying "I'm such an evil and > effective liar that I can convince the SYMPHONY that I'm an angel". None of > the other Bands even have a hope of convincing the Symphony of this, so they > can't have the attunement. EXACTLY correct, Leath. I couldn't have said it better, myself. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:50:48 -0600 From: Matt Lyon Subject: Re: IN> Vaguely on topic.... BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > This might not have anything to do with In Nomine specifically, but it is > religious;y themes and made me laugh my ass off. > Check out: > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Rooftop/2334/sf20000211.htm > > Reverend Brian A. Rogers Thanks! I'm slowly building an IN site that's going to include (among other things) links to some things that might make Kobal chuckle. This is going on the list. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:50:18 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell At 18:30 -0500 3/21/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >IMC, I've ruled that most blessed souls in Heaven *voluntarily* give up 1 >Essence per day, as a selfless act of charity for the greater good. No one >is making them do it; they just do, because that's the sort of people they >are. That's why they're in Heaven, after all. That's roughly my theory on how it might work. There's also a sort of inverse Catch-22 in Heaven: people there don't really *need* Essence for anything, unlike Hell, where it is important in defending yourself against everyone else. So, in a sense, Essence is valueless in Heaven, while it has a very high value in Hell. Heaven's main need for Essence is actually on Earth, where it's needed to support the War. Frankly, this seems highly probable to generate a wartime mentality in Heaven's inhabitants, where they'd volunteer (*really* volunteer) to give up their Essence to fight the War. After all, humans have done similar things in the name of patriotism on Earth, and we know that living humans, on average, are less selfless than the inhabitants of Heaven. - --- On a side track, the notion above that Essence is valueless in Heaven and valuable in Hell suggests some sort of plot with Marc setting up a black market for Essence in Hell, probably via a bunch of Free Lilim. Trade, after all, is at its base the movement of something from a place where it has low value, to a place where it has a higher value. The idea behind this plot is that the Lilims' customers would owe them, and they'd owe *Marc*. Seems like a potential for a big return on investment, to me.... (Gee, maybe Marc could stage a hostile takeover of a Principality or two after a while....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:54:57 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell At 22:18 -0500 3/21/00, John Karakash wrote: > Upper Heavens. All the souls that went 'up' are >still generating Essence. Presumably, they don't need it >and it becomes available for use by Heaven. But I don't think there's anything in canon that says this. Interestingly, there's another demographical issue raised by this. Heaven doesn't destroy its souls the way Hell does. So even if Hell gets more souls per year than Heaven, things may balance out because the average "lifetime" of a soul in many parts of Hell is finite, while one in Heaven will have an infinite lifetime. Depending on the ratio of souls going to Heaven and to Hell, and the attrition rates in Hell, this may tend to balance things out (along with the Essence wasted in Hellish infighting). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:02:52 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words At 20:39 -0500 3/21/00, David Rodemaker wrote: >> Actually, I meant that Word-bound celestials should make up between 1% >> and 10% of celestials _on Earth_. As a percentage of the total, they'd >> be even rarer. >> -David > >Why, that really doesn't seem to be how Canon has portrayed it. Yes and no -- if you look at characters in canon, that appears to be true, but I think that's primarily because Word-bound NPCs are a bit more interesting than the typical celestial who's just serving his time in the War. > If they are >that rare then should be no chance to speak of being granted a Word. For a lot of celestials, that's probably true. The typical 7-Force demon probably has next to no chance, but 9-Force PCs on Earth duty are already well above average, at least for demons. There's a harder case to show for angels, but unlike demons, they can afford to wait a long time to get a Word, since they're not at constant risk of soul-death from their Superior and their fellow celestials. > That >and why in the heck would there even be a "Choking to Death on Chicken >Bones" catagory? Because demonic Words are often more capriciously-given than angelic ones. And demons are much more numerous than angels, so it's more likely there are a lot of trivial Words, if the proportion of Word-Bound is the same as for angels. Note also that getting a Word often makes it harder to advance in power -- helping someone get a trivial Word may keep them from becoming a rival, later. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:28:32 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell (Marc Plot thought) In a message dated 3/24/00 7:52:33 PM, milliken@io.com writes: >On a side track, the notion above that Essence is valueless in Heaven and >valuable in Hell suggests some sort of plot with Marc setting up a black >market for Essence in Hell, probably via a bunch of Free Lilim. Trade, >after all, is at its base the movement of something from a place where >it >has low value, to a place where it has a higher value. The idea behind >this >plot is that the Lilims' customers would owe them, and they'd owe *Marc*. >Seems like a potential for a big return on investment, to me.... >(Gee, maybe Marc could stage a hostile takeover of a Principality or two >after a while....) > > >---Walter And here I'd been wondering what I was going to do with the campaign that's starting this evening! Complete with a Bright Lilim, three(!) servitors of Destiny and a Judgie. I think Dominic would be having colonic spasms (to misquote from _Shards_ _of_ _Honor_) if he had a colon... This is beautiful as a backdrop, one of many that I've stolen. Mark (And the cherub of wind will have *fun*) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:51:00 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Why High Contrast In a message dated 3/24/00 5:39:51 AM, mtrent@bigfoot.com writes: >David Edelstein wrote: >> >> Matt Trent wrote: >> >>(Though why anyone plays high contrast> games is beyond me) >> >> Because some people don't like playing WoD clones.... > > >Well, I don't consider my comic bright low contrast campaign to be a WoD >clone. Of course having only played on session of Werewolf might >indicate that I don't know anything about WoD and are being influenced >by Orbital Mind Control Lasers. > >Trent Ofanite of Doubt The question is actually more stylistic than anything. I play a 'high contrast' game - Good is good, Evil is evil, and everyone knows what side who is on. Low contrast, high brightness, and high humor leads me to think about Teenagers from Outer Space, which is fine - but I prefer to tackle the Big Questions (tm). There is plenty of grey in my campaign, but the humans are the only ones living there. Of course, my players help with the choice, because they seem to be constitutionally incapable of playing in low contrast (Don't ask me about my Bright Shadowrun campaign...) On the other hand, I also run an Angels only campaign. I would think that it would be impossible to run a demon PCs campaign without lowering the contrast. A one-shot might be OK, but there's only so interesting pure evil can be. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:00:22 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Of course, I'll remind all of you concerned about the Essence Deficit between Heaven and Hell, that it's *cannonical* that any monotheistic religious ceremony provides essence to Heaven. This includes Jewish, (some) Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikhist, and Ba'hai ceremonies of any type. Now think about the numbers involved there, versus what Hell can get from it's collection of souls, and you can see why I don't have a problem thinking that Heaven is winning the essence war. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:00:45 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell Walter Milliken wrote: > > At 22:18 -0500 3/21/00, John Karakash wrote: > > Upper Heavens. All the souls that went 'up' are > >still generating Essence. Presumably, they don't need it > >and it becomes available for use by Heaven. > > But I don't think there's anything in canon that says this. Sorry, that wasn't meant to be canonical! D'oh! - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:18:27 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > > > Of course, I'll remind all of you concerned about the Essence Deficit between > Heaven and Hell, that it's *cannonical* that any monotheistic religious > ceremony provides essence to Heaven. This includes Jewish, (some) Hindu, > Christian, Muslim, Sikhist, and Ba'hai ceremonies of any type. Now think > about the numbers involved there, versus what Hell can get from it's > collection of souls, and you can see why I don't have a problem thinking that > Heaven is winning the essence war. OTOH, Hell gets Essence every time humans act selfishly.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:19:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell When we say "Heaven gets Essence" or "Hell gets Essence," where IS this Essence? In normal game mechanics, a point of Essence is stored in a Force of some character, or in a Level of some relic. Where does the Essence sent to Heaven at large or Hell at large go to? Hang in the air for Superiors to grab when they need it? Do Superiors have enough Forces to hold it all? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:22:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell David Edelstein wrote: > OTOH, Hell gets Essence every time humans act selfishly.... But then, on the third hand, Heaven presumably gets Essence every time humans act altruistically. Yeah, yeah, maybe that isn't as often as selfishly -- though even celestials might have a hard time determining that -- but Heaven has input from worship + behavior, while Hell has input from behavior only. Probably each side would love to know the exact ratio of Essence production from various activities to them and their foe, and neither side has much hope of actually finding out. Clearly, they must be near enough equal to keep a near-stalemate going for thousands of years. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:26:44 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell >OTOH, Hell gets Essence every time humans act selfishly.... > Wait a minute, is that canon? I know that worship can send essence to Heaven or Hell (or both, conceivably). Basicly the rituals of worship involve sending out the essence as a sort of grasping towards connection with the Divine or Infernal (I'd imagine that it carries a message like essence sent to Limbo, though since its comming with so much other essence the messages are likely to get jumbled, but that's just my thought on it). Where does it say that any selfish act siphons essence from a human to Hell? Also I don't think that makes sense. Maybe if a human expends essence selfishly it 'flavors' that essence, and like being drawn to like, the essence ends up in Hell. If that's the case selfless expenditures would go to Heaven. I think that selfless actions +worship would match selfish actions, in terms of essence generated. That still leaves Hell with an essence advantage, but so what? Demons really don't have much going for them comparatively, right now their wrong. Until God concedes to Lucifer their wrong, though if Lucifer manages to destroy God then their also right. They fight among themselves, a lot. Their weaker on average. Their leader did not create the universe, and in canon was bested by a Superior on the other side. Angels can go into heaven and God's influence can reach into Heaven. The reverse is not true. Angels have a direct connection to the Symphony, and the Creator of the Symphony is backing them. Not only do they know more of the rules than demons, but conceivably their side can have those rules changed. So what if Hell has an essence advantage? It barely makes up for the gap between power levels. If I have more quarters than the school yard bully he can beat them up and take them from me. This is simular to the situation between Heaven and Hell. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:30:39 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell >When we say "Heaven gets Essence" or "Hell gets Essence," where IS >this Essence? In normal game mechanics, a point of Essence is >stored in a Force of some character, or in a Level of some relic. >Where does the Essence sent to Heaven at large or Hell at large >go to? Hang in the air for Superiors to grab when they need it? >Do Superiors have enough Forces to hold it all? I've always assume that there were special relics that didn't regenerate essence just held it, allowing a Superior to enough essence to let them do nifty Superior level things. Its also possible for the materials of Heaven and Hell to be essence, or at least hold it. I prefer the being essence. For instance, where does celesial cocaine come from? Fleurity needs it, but can he just make it poof? I'd imagine that the essence he gets manifests as various drugs. He can liquidate it, but he is more likely to use it as raw material. Anyway that's my general conception of how it works, though you bring up a good point. Possibly God or Lucifer takes the excess. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:43:15 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell > >When we say "Heaven gets Essence" or "Hell gets Essence," where IS > >this Essence? In normal game mechanics, a point of Essence is > >stored in a Force of some character, or in a Level of some relic. > >Where does the Essence sent to Heaven at large or Hell at large > >go to? Hang in the air for Superiors to grab when they need it? > >Do Superiors have enough Forces to hold it all? > >I've always assume that there were special relics that didn't regenerate >essence just held it, allowing a Superior to enough essence to let them do >nifty Superior level things. > Marc has a bank that all the Archangels store their Essence in. I imagine that Hell has to use it or lose it at a certain point. Although, Hell probably is constantly using it. Slash and burn agriculture. - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Impudite of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, servitor of Kronos - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:56:12 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Tim Groth wrote: > > > >OTOH, Hell gets Essence every time humans act selfishly.... > > > > Wait a minute, is that canon? Yes. The Essence flows indirectly; selfish acts strengthen diabolical Words, selfless acts strengthen divine Words. So every time someone commits an act of theft, for example, he's contributing to Valefor's Word. As Earl pointed out, no one knows the exact ratio. Even Valefor can't track exactly how many points of Essence (or what fraction of a point) he received from a specific robbery. It's what Elizabeth has called "diffuse Essence" that coalesces in Heaven or Hell, and the best Superiors can do is take note of when they're experiencing an overall increase or decrease in their Essence "revenue," and try to correlate it to what's happening on Earth. Yes, selfless acts give Essence to Heaven, but IMO, selfishness vastly outnumbers selflessness. (Actually, I believe it's canon that Hell is getting more souls than Heaven.) The point about the relative longevity of Heavenly souls vs. damned souls is a good one. It may be that Hell is opting for the "quick profit" (relatively speaking), hoping to amass enough of an advantage within a few thousand years to overpower Heaven, which would eventually come out on top if the War stretches out to the end where their long-term advantage would come into play. (Suppose the War lasts for millions of years....Hell has accumulated vast splurges of Essence, but then it's gone, and so are the consumed souls, whereas Heaven has just been accumulating and accumulating, taking advantage of compound interest over the long haul.) > Where does it say that any selfish act siphons essence from a human to > Hell? No, it doesn't siphon Essence from the human. See above. > So what if Hell has an essence advantage? It barely makes up for the gap > between power levels. One of the big premises of the War is that Hell is pretty certain that they'd win Armageddon right now, by the numbers. On paper, they have a huge advantage. But that assumes that God _won't_ intervene directly, come Armageddon. If He does, game over for Hell. And since the demons can't be sure that won't happen, they're not ready to start the final battle....yet. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:56:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell David Edelstein wrote: > But that assumes that God _won't_ intervene directly, come > Armageddon. If He does, game over for Hell. And since the demons > can't be sure that won't happen, they're not ready to start the > final battle....yet. What development would give them the edge over God, should He intervene at Armageddon? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:04:24 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Oh I gotcha, I miss understood the selfless actions providing them with essence, I assumed you ment every action yielded some essence. But yes the strengthening of Words makes sense. Also I think that if the war drags on certain sections of Hell (Shal-Mari) will last, while others (Abaddon) would fall. Kobal has obscene amounts of essence and isn't interested in destroying souls, same with the other Shal-Mari princes. I don't think that in canon Hell has a chance. Even if God doesn't intervene Michael defeated Lucifer, that isn't a good sign for Hell. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:22:08 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Earl Wajenberg wrote: > What development would give them the edge over God, should He > intervene at Armageddon? That's the question, isn't it? My own theory is that most of Hell is basically waiting until they have the balls to call the "God bluff," and hoping in the meantime that Lucifer will somehow *prove* that God really is a non-entity, or that He can be taken down. What is Lucifer waiting for? Ah, the possibilities.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:16:25 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell >What development would give them the edge over God, should He >intervene at Armageddon? Lucifer ascending to that level of power somehow, or developing a way to at least hurt God (I doubt that God has ever been hurt). Other than that they can't win if God is able to act. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:23:12 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Tim Groth wrote: > I don't think that in canon Hell has a chance. Even if God doesn't > intervene Michael defeated Lucifer, that isn't a good sign for Hell. Well, in canon Michael defeated Lucifer a long time ago, before Lucifer became supreme ruler of Hell. It's not at all certain who'd win a rematch. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:32:58 -0800 From: "Glenn Brown" Subject: IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? How do you think Celestials would react to this new development? I suppose Valefor is delighted that millions of people are ignoring copyright law, but how would Nybbas, Eli and Israfel react? Nybbas has more control over the record industry than he has over the Internet, but the Internet is part of the Media, and Napster is building a bigger audience. Israfel may be happy to see more people listening to more varied music, but might she be worried about the long term effects on her word, if it becomes harder for musicians to make a living by creating new music? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:34:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Tim Groth wrote: > I doubt that God has ever been hurt. Mileage varies. If you run a campaign in which Judaism or Christianity is reasonably true, God has suffered a lot of emotional pain in relation to us. According to mainstream Christianity, God was mocked, flogged, and nailed up to die of shock and suffocation. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:50:00 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? Glenn Brown wrote: > How do you think Celestials would react to this new development? > I suppose Valefor is delighted that millions of people are ignoring > copyright law, but how would Nybbas, Eli and Israfel react? Eli probably doesn't care much, since Napster allows you to passively enjoy artistic creations, but it doesn't encourage their creation. Israfel would be happy to see music put in wider circulation. Valefor likes the trashing of copyright laws. Nybbas has no control over the Internet, and would really dislike the way Napster makes it even harder to control distribution. He doesn't WANT people to freely distribute their _own_ media; he wants to be the source of all media. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:01:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> A letter of Introduction At 12:20 PM -0800 3/13/00, Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: >Oh, and s*bscribe to Pyramid. The articles are great, the discussion boards >are really nice, and it is a wonderful thing to see playtest files. Just >promise Beth you'll buy the books eventually. Yes. Exactly. (Do these people know me or what? O;> ) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while running back and forth to the hospital to visit her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Don't believe it -- she's already Charming the nursing staff!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:03:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. >Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. >Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:23 -0500 >From: "Galen G. Silversmith" > >> From: "ben" >> To: >> >> Soldiers can pick up choir and band attunements if they are given a force >> that previously belonged to a celestial of that band or choir. >> >> If Kronos bound a Balsperaph's force onto a Soldier of Hell, could that >> soldier purchase the band attunement and thus receive an angelic resonance? >> I know demons can't pick up the Balseraph Attunement of Fate after creation, >> but does this also apply to a mortal? > >No. Mortals cannot pick up resonances. it is neither in their nature >(there roll within the symphony is not such that they would be able to >resonate). Further more, this isn't at character creation. > >IMO, abilities like this, that require being at creation, help define the >nature and design, at least in the symphony's respect, of the character, PC >or NPC. > >Now, I *could* see an argument that if Kronos stripped the force off of a >balseraph and attached it to a mortal, *and* in that process, took this >attunement from his servitor, and attached it to the mortal, it MIGHT be >enough to change the mortal's nature, to allow this special attunement. >I'd never let this happen in any game I was GMing, but this is the only >thing in my mind that would be reasonable and your mileage may vary. > >> If yes, could a mortal use the Kyriotate resonance, drop his own body, and >> smurf into another? (Presumably it takes all his own forces to use his own >> body.) > >How exactly is the mortal getting this resonance? Its not an attunement. > >Mortals (with the appropriate Celestial/Ethereal attunements) can learn the >songs of possession, but not the Kyriotate resonance. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:04:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell (How'd _you_ fall off the membership submission, David??) >From: David Edelstein >Reply-To: AmadanSJG@compuserve.com >Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell >Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:19:06 -0600 > >Whistling in the Dark wrote: >> It's not in canon, it's my postulate. Even as there is no "Dark of >> Hell," there is no Essence for Nothing and the chicks for free down >> there. It's Heaven's big advantage, in this theory. > >Actually, the Light of Heaven providing free Essence was part of the >original draft of H&H. It got thrown out during playtesting because >there didn't seem to be an easy way to prevent angels from saying "I go >celestial, bop up to Heaven to recharge on Essence, and return a few >minutes later." > >-David > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:02:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:02:47 -0500 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" > From: Walter Milliken > The main problem with setting a watch on the death location (for either > Judgment or the Game), is that it's servitor-intensive. Most likely, the > watcher would have to be either a Djinn or a Cherub; other Choirs and Bands > (as well as the lesser spirits) are too likely to get distracted, wander off > for a cup of coffee or something, and miss the Disfavored's return. That really depends on where the outcast/renegade got sent to limbo. If it was somewhere corporeal relatively near a human population, there is a good chance that with some minor effort a 'mundane' detection system could be set up to watch (closed circuit TV, or simply a detection device attached to a VeryBigGun/explosive/similar). Maybe add in a small relic or a bit of celestial technology, to detect the RIGHT celestial'ss return. No need for a sentient watchdog. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:40:59 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> Eseence in Heaven/Hell - --- Walter Milliken wrote: > On a side track, the notion above that Essence is valueless in > Heaven and > valuable in Hell suggests some sort of plot with Marc setting up a > black > market for Essence in Hell, probably via a bunch of Free Lilim. > Trade, > after all, is at its base the movement of something from a place > where it > has low value, to a place where it has a higher value. The idea > behind this > plot is that the Lilims' customers would owe them, and they'd owe > *Marc*. > Seems like a potential for a big return on investment, to me.... > (Gee, maybe Marc could stage a hostile takeover of a Principality > or two > after a while....) > ---Walter > oh, I like that one... i like that on a lot. Yes, there is adventure potential there...Especially in light of the Alternate future / prophcy scene Yves saw at the end of the final trumpet, where the meeting of the two champions took place betweeen Marc and Litlith ( I am almost certainly mis phrasing the prophecy, But the scene is there). Thank you sir. Thank you very much; you have done more to advance my IN campaign than all the coffee I drank today. ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com time to change sig files i do not have a new one make something up then - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1562 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.