From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Mar 25 11:39:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23483 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:39:50 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA14583 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:35:39 -0600 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:35:39 -0600 Message-Id: <200003251735.LAA14583@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1563 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, March 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1563 In this digest: Re: IN> Rites & Words Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) IN> Servitors, servitors, and minions (Re: Rites & Words) Re: IN> The Home Front Re: IN> More Birthday Gifts IN> Economies of Essence... (Re: The Home Front) Re: IN> A little story I thought you all might like Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Servitors, servitors, and minions (Re: Rites & Words) IN> Relic/Vessel Idea Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell IN> Getting the drop on God (Re: Essence in Heaven/Hell) Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Servitors, servitors, and minions (Re: Rites & Words) Re: IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell IN> Warning: Saminga At Work. IN> Very nasty Malakite of Eli trick Re: IN> Very nasty Malakite of Eli trick Re: IN> Economies of Essence... (Re: The Home Front) Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question IN> Essence & Rites ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:34:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Rites & Words At 9:50 AM +0000 3/21/00, Laurent wrote: >>>> Even if you know that one of Laurence's Rites is hunting a demon, that >doesn't mean that by hunting a demon, you can now get a point of Essence from >him. Laurence has to actually give you the Rite. Ditto for any other Rite. >(David)<<< > >Some rites give the performer temporary immunity, IIRC. For example, a rite of >Jean would be to stay plugged into a wall socket for 2 hours or so. During that >time, the performer is immune to electricity damage (tell me if I'm wrong). I'd say, immune to damage from the activity that is the Rite. Which is rather different than saying immune to _all_ electircity damage. (Mind, you could _play_ it that way, but it opens up rather a lot of cans of worms... At 10:03 PM -0600 3/20/00, David Edelstein wrote: >David Rodemaker wrote: >> Yes, upon re-reading the rules that does seem to be what it say's. > >That is what it says. I wrote it. (And I edited it. Which means that we must be agreeing. O:> ) (It also means that I get to be blamed for any unclarities; either I managed to insert one or I didn't manage to detect one... (I hope I didn't insert any!)) At 4:22 PM +0000 3/21/00, Laurent wrote: >>And then there's Kobal, who'd probably happily hand out stupid *real* >>Rites, >>just to see if people were dumb enough to use them. "For 10 Essence, win a >>Darwin Award"....) >>(Walter).< > >ooooh brilliant!! Must take some notes... Actually, is there any collection of >rites anywhere? Are there additional rites in the Superiors X books? Yup. That's exactly where they are. And the GM can certainly make up his/her own... For instance, in a PBEM, the GM asked if I had a suggestion for a Rite to reward one of the players. I looked at the existing Rites, and made up a new one out of wholecloth which fit the theme of the Word, and also had some subtle "hooks" into some of the plot of the PBEM. (Probably _too_ subtle, but hey.) However, a GM might also want to go back to the discussion about handing out "too many" Rites -- I've generally been figuring that the more powerful and older the Superior, the more different kinds of Rites he hands out. Thus Jean has boocoos of them (cross-indexed in his databases to see who's got which and when, so lesser beings can look it up without bothering him and his eidetic memory), while Nybbas has a dozen or so, total... (Mind, some of the older Rites of Lightning may be a bit odd these days -- drawing Essence from foxfire in a thunderstorm might be a bit... eccentric in this day and age.) At 1:42 PM -0500 3/21/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >In fact, I believe the main book's intent was that all PCs were "lone >agents", (="loose cannons") and rare in reporting directly to their >Superior. > >As the game has evolved, I think most GMs found it more reasonable to have >PCs reporting via the Superior's organization, rather than directly, for >all but the most critical things. (There's a major problem in the game >if Superiors are showing up around PCs all the time....) Amen. It tended to mess with the feel of things if a Superior was showing up all the time. Made them very mundane, not scary and magnificant. Also made the GM work harder. O:> Not to mention people were asking, "Okay, so I want to send in a routine report -- I invoke my Superior for that? Uhhhhh...." - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:05:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> trauma & outcasts/renegades (was GURPS IN, Grigori, and their children...) At 10:41 AM -0500 3/21/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 18:43 -0500 3/20/00, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >> question: do Outcasts >>generally suffer the same ping-pong between Limbo and deathpoint >>that Renegades do? > >Their new vessel appears at the point of their prior death, yes. Whether >Judgment plays that sort of trick with nailing the Outcast[...] > In my game, I'd say that they would be likely to >set a watch on the location, since Judgment really wants to haul people >back to Heaven for trial, [...] Note, also, that Judgment would likely set a Warder to watching this, since the Warders get the distinction-power of gluing the person's feet to the floor. So to speak. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:30:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Servitors, servitors, and minions (Re: Rites & Words) At 10:04 AM -0600 3/21/00, David Rodemaker wrote: >> Which is why non-Superiors probably DON'T teach their Rites to 30-40 >> people. Even a celestial with 18-20 Word Forces can only afford to give >> his Rites to a handful of people. [...] >I think I'm due for a serious re-reading of the game. My understanding is [...] >The implication is that everyone else is working for another celestial, who >works for another celestial, so on and so forth up the Superior. To the best >of my recollection it's is suggested that an appropriate reward for *really* >helping out a Word-Bound is to mayby be granted one of thier Rites. Keep in mind the distinctions between Servitors, servitors, and minions... One serves a Superior, another serves a lesser power (Word-bound, Duke, etc.), and another serves a lesser power but with little link... This is discussed in greater detail in the Servants chapter of the Liber Servitorum. >Are there any bennies to working for a Word-Bound? If you're assigned someone as your commanding officer, you may be working for him, but not necessarily his _servitor_ -- you may simply be one of his minions. If you've really impressed him and basically hitched your wagon to his star (or convinced him you have!), then you may be able (probably with your Superior's permission (or ignorance)) to become a servitor -- you then get a Rite/Servitor Attunement, or whatever else your boss has to give. If he ever makes it to Superior status, you'll probably get a juicy Distinction out of it, too. > How many servitors does a Word-Bound generally have? Probably no more than a handful -- but they may command _many_ minions (or, say, minions of their few servitors...). >What is the guesstimate ratio of >Word-Bound to non-Word-Bound in the Celestial realms? GM call, I'd say. I'd generally figure that there are a _lot_ more non-Word-bound in the celestial reamls! But on Earth, the proportions may shift around, because a Word-bound whose Word is best served on Earth will probably be on Earth, trying to grow his Word! >I realize all this >changes a great deal on the brightness and contrast of a campaign but what >is the semi-Canon version of Heaven/Hell? Sometimes very vague until something forces us to nail it down... O;> - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:45:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Home Front At 1:51 PM -0500 3/21/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >If only a minority of angels get Earth duty, what are the rest of them >doing? > >We know that a lot of Jean's work in the labs, and a lot of Yves's work >in the Library, but the rest? Blandine's work in the Marches. They may also function as counsellors and whatnot for souls and angels who are suffering from burnout (i.e., who have a problem with tarnished, battered dreams). David's are all underground doing who _knows_ what... (I would figure no small number of them are training for the Final Battle.) Dominic's are keeping their own records, and going around in celestial triads. Also, hassling Creationers (directly, looking for hidden Hearts, etc.). Eli's are CREATING STUFF! Or possibly just kicking back and skipping work with their new boss, or doing whatever their new boss wants, or getting hassled by Judgmenters. Gabriel's are recording her prophecies, training for the Final Battle, and moping around hoping she'll show up and give them a new vessel so they can get back to Earth and beat on more cruel people. Janus' are stirring things up so that Heaven doesn't get stangant and booooooring. Also trying to steal all the swords in Laurence's armory, or hang flowers in there, or various other attempts to get Larry to lighten up. Jean's are triaging the information that gets sent to _him_ (c'mon, don't you think a micromanager like Jean wants weekly email reports?), figuring out what humans are going to do with new tech, tracking trends, surfing the Web, and hacking Vapulan mainframes when they get a chance... Jordi's are all wandering around on the Savannah doing things which look totally useless (grazing??) but Jordi assures everyone are utterly vital. Are _you_ going to argue with the nice Archangel with the big sharp teeth? Laurence's are training, training, training, and training some more, with a little praying and guard duty thrown in for good measure. Depending on your campaign, they may also be being chased around by a Bright Lilim or two, on the grounds that all that training has _got_ to make Laurencians some of the nicest Views in Heaven. (They also spend time getting harassed by Windys.) Marc's are selling things, buying things, Trading things, serving as go-betweens for other deals, and generally serve as Heaven's Commercial zone... (SimHeaven, yeah!) Michael's are training in the Groves. 'Nuff said. Novalis' are in her Party, doing the things that Novalis says are important there. Also 'nuff said. Yves' are working in the Library, finding valuable data. Or just hiding out with steamy Harliquin Romances, you never know. Howzat? - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:51:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More Birthday Gifts At 2:40 PM -0500 3/21/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >We've seen the list of gifts for Io-chan herslef. Here, only a little >late, is a list of gifts for her parents: [...] >David: The strength for Io-chan to hold her own bottle a full month >earlier than otherwise. (And if you don't think that's a good gift, you >will soon.) Io-chan is a breast-baby! Now, if I can just have the toughness to withstand when she starts _teething_... >Laurence: Ten good comebacks for "But it's not fair!" I'll be happy with the Master of the Armies of God Distinction, myself... >Marc: A total absence of billing hassels from the hospital, insurance >company, etc. Too late! (Our insurance changed over on the 15th. She was born on the 17th...) O;> - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:51:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Economies of Essence... (Re: The Home Front) At 3:19 PM -0500 3/21/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Am I the only one who simply doesn't accept that Heaven runs on an >Essence based economy, but instead runs on a soft currency based >economy in those (rare) sections that have economics at all? > >The idea that Blessed Souls and Angels have to yield up their >precious Essence -- the very flow of the divine within them, the bit >of hope and luck that drives their activities -- to get a cup of >coffee bothers me greatly. Well, it depends upon how _much_ Essence is required to make a cup of coffee. I mean, it could be that 1 Essence makes enough for _100_ cups of coffee (or more), so either you start a tab, or you buy everyone in the joint a cup of coffee as well -- which makes Heaven a little brighter, since (assuming it's good coffee, and this _is_ Heaven, right?) you've just cheered up everyone around you with your generosity! If it were a 1-Essence, 1-coffee equation, that _would_ be icky... - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:57:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A little story I thought you all might like Okay, I'm guilty... The little Impudite sleeping in my lap made me do it... At 11:58 PM +1100 3/22/00, Brent McCartney wrote: [...] >Having had it with the two of them, God's punishment was that Adam and Eve >should have children of their own. This is why I'm going to do my best to do what my mom did -- instead of saying "don't do that," I'm going to try to say, "Come over here," or "Hold your hands behind your back when you look at that." After all, saying "don't" just focuses someone on what you _don't_ want them doing! Don't think of purple monkeys! Especially not ones with funny accents. (Minkies!) Which, if I were smart, I'd try to work in some reference to Janus, but the insight just won't gel. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:09:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. At 3:53 PM -0600 3/23/00, David Edelstein wrote: >ben wrote: >> Soldiers can pick up choir and band attunements if they are given a force >> that previously belonged to a celestia of that band or choir. >> >> If Kronos bound a Balsperaph's force onto a Soldier of Hell, could that >> soldier purchase the band attunement and thus recieve an angelic resonance? You're a sick, sick person, Ben. I like that. >No. Soldiers acquiring Band/Choir attunements are subject to the same >rules as other Servitors acquiring a Band/Choir attunement not their own >-- if it's dependent on having that Band/Choir's resonance, you can't >have it. (Which the FateBal Band Attunement is; see errata, I think?) And thank the stars for that, because otherwise that would be one _huge_ can of worms, which I can now cheerfully pass off as, "In canon, it can't happen. Which means that if you use it (and it's a twisted idea, so I'd love to see someone do that!), you have to iron out the wrinkles yourself. Have fun!" (Man. That's a sick idea. I like it.) At 1:22 AM -0500 3/24/00, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 3/23/00 3:51:02 PM Central Standard Time, >AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: [...] >I've never seen a reason why other Bands couldn't have that resonance. In-game, it's because it involves lying to the Symphony at a fundamental level. (I'd figure that all Balseraphs of Fate are deeply disturbing to talk to... Sort of like Habbalah, only weirder and you tend to start believing them after a while.) Out of game, it's because it's a frabbishnabbering can of greased Balsera-- I mean worms. >I understand the rationale behind it though. I just wish it were different. So make house rules! Nobody stoppin' ya, honest! - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:44:57 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell From: Tim Groth > >What development would give them the edge over God, should He > >intervene at Armageddon? > > Lucifer ascending to that level of power somehow, or developing a way to at > least hurt God (I doubt that God has ever been hurt). Other than that they > can't win if God is able to act. Perhaps Lucifer is gearing up for the Big Lie (TM), wherein he, using his Balseraphic talents, proves to God that God doesn't exist. (See _Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_, q.v. "Well, That About Wraps it Up For God.") Perhaps the rationale runs something like this: All of Heaven is banking on God's infallibility. The fact that the demons are, in fact, rebels who have closed their eyes to the truth and that the angels are the agents of that truth. Ultimately, to the angels, they *have* to win, because their leader is omnipotent. I think the perfect example of this view is Michael's attitude towards The Truth. The War has raged on for millennia, and Hell still hasn't lost. In fact, they're gaining ground. If the angels are on the side of perfection, this shouldn't happen. Hell's armies shouldn't have a chance. The Media shouldn't be as powerful as it is. And, what with all of the bickering that goes on in the Pit, the Princes should have shut each other down by now. This hasn't happened. This implies that there might be a grain of Truth in Lucifer's position. So Lucifer and the other Princes have been mustering their forces for eons, never intending to get to Armageddon, but just intent on proving that maybe, just maybe, there's more to one side than this argument. If Lucifer, standing against God, is right, then God is wrong. If this is true, then God isn't perfect. If God isn't perfect, He isn't God. If God isn't God, who is He? Someone-other-than-God. So Lucifer presents God with all of the evidence, the fact that His armies haven't mopped the floor with Hell yet, and convinces God that He isn't omnipotent. Once God's convinced of that, it gets a great deal easier for Lucifer to "bargain down" God's powers until the point when He blinks out of existence. Maybe this has already happened, and that's why we haven't heard anything from Up Above in so long? God left the Host without saying goodbye? Or maybe Lucifer's just biding his time to get some really strong evidence. In any case, once God negates Himself, then that means Lucifer is right. If Lucifer was right, despite the protestations of the holiest of holies, then what does that make him? Darn-near-infallible. He saw the Truth where Michael didn't. And anyone that wise has got to be pretty close to omniscient. So all the Host starts looking up to Lucifer, admiring him, praising him, telling him he was right, sending, perhaps, Essence his way. And with all that Essence... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:12:37 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Servitors, servitors, and minions (Re: Rites & Words) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Keep in mind the distinctions between Servitors, servitors, and minions... Servitors, _servants_, and minions. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:04:20 -0500 (EST) From: Experimental Version Subject: IN> Relic/Vessel Idea Greetings All, I had an intresting Idea for a Terminator style -T2000 vessel Plan: Primordial Clay Mercury Song of Forms (Cel) Song of Healing (Corp)- maybe How would you build/price this thing out? Any other ideas to flesh it out /tone it down? Back to the lab, Yoyo-Dyne Where the future begins tommorrow. What ever you do, DON'T get your ... ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 21:43:19 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Gregory Gietzen wrote: > In any case, once God negates Himself, then that means Lucifer is right. Either that or the Ethereal are. Or maybe everyone is wrong and it's all just a dream that Balandine will wake up from in 2 hours. Or not. Matt Trent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:58:36 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Getting the drop on God (Re: Essence in Heaven/Hell) At 4:56 PM -0500 3/24/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >David Edelstein wrote: > >> But that assumes that God _won't_ intervene directly, come >> Armageddon. If He does, game over for Hell. And since the demons >> can't be sure that won't happen, they're not ready to start the >> final battle....yet. > >What development would give them the edge over God, should He >intervene at Armageddon? If you ask the ethereals, they'd probably say that having a demon (say, the Lightbringer) discover the secret of Yahweh's ascention would do the trick... - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:58:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Soldiers with Band Forces. At 7:03 PM -0500 3/24/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>From: "Galen G. Silversmith" >>> From: "ben" >>> If Kronos bound a Balsperaph's force onto a Soldier of Hell,[...] >>> receive an angelic resonance? [...] >>> If yes, could a mortal use the Kyriotate resonance, drop his own body, and >>> smurf into another? (Presumably it takes all his own forces to use his own >>> body.) >> >>How exactly is the mortal getting this resonance? Its not an attunement. Ah, but it is -- for a Balseraph of Fate. Kronos is a sneaky little Prince, y'see. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:00:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell At 2:26 PM -0700 3/24/00, Tim Groth wrote: >>OTOH, Hell gets Essence every time humans act selfishly.... > >Wait a minute, is that canon? Not explicitly -- but it's one logical extrapolation for where various Word-bound and Superiors get their Essence when they do their own Rites and suck the power out of the Symphony. Think of it as a miasma of Essence, maybe... And it _certainly_ benefits the Prince whose Word is best served by that scrap of selfishness, growing his Word-powers/ increasing his Word-Forces, and making him (and thus Hell) stronger. At 3:56 PM -0600 3/24/00, David Edelstein wrote: >As Earl pointed out, no one knows the exact ratio. Even Valefor can't >track exactly how many points of Essence (or what fraction of a point) >he received from a specific robbery. It's what Elizabeth has called >"diffuse Essence" that coalesces in Heaven or Hell, and the best >Superiors can do is take note of when they're experiencing an overall >increase or decrease in their Essence "revenue," and try to correlate it >to what's happening on Earth. Right. Diffuse Essence. Presumed to collect around Tethers, IIRC. I think there may be some hint to that effect in the Liber Castellorum? Or was it just a background assumption? >The point about the relative longevity of Heavenly souls vs. damned >souls is a good one. Though Heavenly souls do have the option of ascending to the higher Heavens... - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:57:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Servitors, servitors, and minions (Re: Rites & Words) At 8:12 PM -0600 3/24/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> Keep in mind the distinctions between Servitors, servitors, and minions... > >Servitors, _servants_, and minions. Them too, actually -- but they weren't germane to the thread yet. O:> I'd look it up, but I have an armful of cranky baby. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe Lynn Cayce McCoy, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:17:45 -0500 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? From: Glenn Brown To: Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 5:32 PM Subject: IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? > How do you think Celestials would react to this new development? > I suppose Valefor is delighted that millions of people are ignoring > copyright law, but how would Nybbas, Eli and Israfel react? Nybbas has more > control over the record industry than he has over the Internet, but the > Internet is part of the Media, and Napster is building a bigger audience. > Israfel may be happy to see more people listening to more varied music, but > might she be worried about the long term effects on her word, if it becomes > harder for musicians to make a living by creating new music? I think Nybbas would hate it, seeing as so many people are so eagerly lapping up the media, in the form of pirated mp3s. Malphas is probably feeling good on the issue himself - distinct factions are being formed. Eli probably loves the spread of creativity, and he probably doesn't care that rules are being flaunted. And, uh, I don't know Israfel. What book is she in? - -Aaron Malakite of Creation, in service to Convenience ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:12:29 -0500 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell From: Tim Groth > >What development would give them the edge over God, should He > >intervene at Armageddon? > > Lucifer ascending to that level of power somehow, or developing a way to at > least hurt God (I doubt that God has ever been hurt). Other than that they > can't win if God is able to act. Well, I have a hard time believing Lucifer *could* amass enough power to topple God. God *is* the Symphony. Lucifer is a being within the Symphony. For him to take over as 'conductor', that would require God to be an individual being that was capable of being toppled(yes, God is capable of anything, but He chooses not to lose, one would imagine). Though, Lucifer is inexplicable as well, so maybe there's Some Mysterious Way to do it, but I don't buy it. It doesn't fit in with the existance-as-symphony metaphor at all. > Timothy, Angel of Rambling > Ofanite of Creation Aaron Malakite of Creation, in service to Convenience ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:58:08 +0100 From: Dave Taylor Subject: IN> Warning: Saminga At Work. I was browsing the web and I found this site: http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/silver_p/kutna.html It's for a church in the Czech republic called the Sedlec Ossuary that Just has to be a tether to Saminga. Lots of lovely pictures (lovely from a demon's point of view... It would probably make a Flower nauseous) Enjoy, if you enjoy that sort of thing. Dave, - -- Long is the way, and hard, that out of Hell leads up to light - John Milton - Paradise Lost ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:04:14 +0100 From: Dave Taylor Subject: IN> Very nasty Malakite of Eli trick Ok, I don't want to start another huge thread about lethal jelly beans and their place in IN Canon, but I have a player who has found an obscene potential hole in the rules and keeps trying to abuse it. We all know a Mal of Eli can pick up anything and use it as a weapon with power +(CD of perception roll) He wants to use his attunement on a Large Sword (already power +4) in the hope of getting a Sword with power up to +10. Naturally I ruled that the attunement ignores the inherent power of the item when used, giving him only a maximum of +6, but it's still one open for munchkin abuse. I just thought people might like to be warned. TTFN, Dave - -- Long is the way, and hard, that out of Hell leads up to light - John Milton - Paradise Lost ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 05:00:51 -0700 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> Very nasty Malakite of Eli trick - ---- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Taylor" To: Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 4:04 AM Subject: IN> Very nasty Malakite of Eli trick > He wants to use his attunement on a Large Sword (already power +4) in the > hope of getting a Sword with power up to +10. Naturally I ruled that the > attunement ignores the inherent power of the item when used, giving him > only a maximum of +6, but it's still one open for munchkin abuse. I just > thought people might like to be warned. I'm fairly sure that canon states that existing weapons don't count. However, I'm starting to think (after poring over FAQ, errata, and what archives I have sorted so's I can search them) that it's been Handed Down From On High, and isn't actually Written. A sword +4 is a sword +4 is a sword +4. Using a sword +4 isn't a terribly creative way to fight. ("Hey, wait, I can use this thing to /hurt/ people?") If the character isn't improvising new weapons every time he goes into battle, he's not doing his job. (How about that new violin the Malakite picked up as a bow +5, with the bow being the arrow? (good luck making sense of /that/ one! shows you what you get when you let me out of my cage at 5 AM.) ;) Cheers, EDG > TTFN, > > Dave > > -- > Long is the way, and hard, that out of Hell leads up to light > - John Milton - Paradise Lost ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:16:04 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Economies of Essence... (Re: The Home Front) > > If it were a 1-Essence, 1-coffee equation, that _would_ be icky... > That's the implication in the coffee-bar scenario... (Don't remember which book it's in at the moment - but it's implied that it's 1-Essence, 1-coffee....) Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:29:56 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question > > Problem #3: Given a really powerful Word-Bound, one of those 18-20 > >Force-almost a superior types. I don't think that it is unreasonable to > >assume that they have 30 or 40 people who work them directly and would > >probably know one or thier rites. In one day they could tap out the > >Word-Bound for all it's essence very easily. What happens when the > >Word-Bound has no Essence to give? Do the last couple of servants just loose > >out? > > Yup. If the well is dry, they get the Essence equivalent of the sound > a straw makes when the glass is empty. (But if those servitors aren't > boosting their boss' Word, what is hey paying them for, huh? Better kick > their lousy behinds into action.) > Okay. Then why on earth would Curtis, the Malakim of Etiquette hand out one of his rites to anyone who "takes an oath to always be polite (and apologize for any lapses of etiquette)"? [Superiors 1, pg. 96] If this essence is coming from his personal essence, and he's handing out his rites on the above basis, it would seem that he's going to be out of essence most of the time - which means he's got problems. There are lots of angels out there, and he's a Grand Master - in Laurence's ranks, that means there are a number of folks who are going to try to imitate him. And finding out that the Rite didn't provide Essence would eventually convince angels to stop using it. Which defeats the purpose of handing it out so often. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:34:05 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question "Kiara S. Legner" wrote: > Okay. Then why on earth would Curtis, the Malakim of Etiquette hand out one > of his rites to anyone who "takes an oath to always be polite (and apologize > for any lapses of etiquette)"? [Superiors 1, pg. 96] Good point. I wrote that, but Curtis is actually an old character from before I wrote the GMG. I dunno. Maybe the rules need to be revised so there's some way the Essence can come from somewhere besides the Word-bound. But doing that does open the way for numerous kinds of abuse. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:06:25 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> How would Heaven and Hell react to Napster? Our spies report that on 02:32 PM 3/24/00 -0800, Glenn Brown said: >How do you think Celestials would react to this new development? >I suppose Valefor is delighted that millions of people are ignoring >copyright law, but how would Nybbas, Eli and Israfel react? Nybbas has more >control over the record industry than he has over the Internet, but the >Internet is part of the Media, and Napster is building a bigger audience. >Israfel may be happy to see more people listening to more varied music, but >might she be worried about the long term effects on her word, if it becomes >harder for musicians to make a living by creating new music? > Israfel, IMHO, isn't the sort to care about that. Music can flow from each person. Each person can express the Symphony through themselves, that's Music. Besides, none of this is going to make starving artists any more starving. Remember, artists are being slapped down for distributing their own songs as often as random people are. Why? Record companies don't like being made irrelevant...record companies serve Nybbas now, almost certainly. As an aside, the stated purpose of Napster is so people can exchange their music. Free stuff AND THEIR OWN STUFF. An easy way to get your song heard if you're a band, they say... I don't want this to turn into a copyright war. But as we've seen in software for a long time, people who want to buy it will. Others won't. Both might pirate things ... but that doesn't have any real effect. Or else they might borrow it from a friend or go to a store that trades used games for each other if you pay a few dollars(This is more a console game thing, but..) or any of the other stuff the software companies and record companies hate but cannot interfere with. Remember, we have been able to record things from the radio for a long time. What's that you say? Quality not high? Well, no ... but if you aren't happy with the quality, why do you listen to music on the radio? Yes. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:58:49 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Our spies report that on 09:34 AM 3/25/00 -0600, David Edelstein said: >"Kiara S. Legner" wrote: >> Okay. Then why on earth would Curtis, the Malakim of Etiquette hand out one >> of his rites to anyone who "takes an oath to always be polite (and apologize >> for any lapses of etiquette)"? [Superiors 1, pg. 96] > > Good point. I wrote that, but Curtis is actually an old character >from before I wrote the GMG. > >I dunno. Maybe the rules need to be revised so there's some way the >Essence can come from somewhere besides the Word-bound. But doing that >does open the way for numerous kinds of abuse. > Perhaps on a case-by-base basis the Superior can underwrite a Rite? Laurence decided he liked the idea and since Laurence possibly CANNOT give out that Rite (IMC, he would not be able to easily...not in his WordSpace) he instead is Supporting the Rite ... Essence flows from him to Curtis to the Rite performer in one smooth motion. This ties nicely, I want to add in, to my Primal Order adaption for In Nomine where Essence=Primal Flux, Forces=Primal Base, Wordbound=demigods, (or supported demigods in some cases!), lesser Superiors=Lesser deities, bigger superiors=Greater deities and Supreme Deities are...? Michael? Yves? Baal? Lucifer? Kronos? There are two versions to this adaption, the humans-are-screwed version which is pretty much a straight translation and the that-must-be-how-they-do-it version where only Superiors get to use Essence for things you use flux for in TPO. This, as I think I mentioned on the list a long time ago, really helped me rationalize how Superiors can eyeblink angels or demons to dust yet have definite limits...it's a very sweet system. If people are interested, I may actually webify it and make it available for comment, especially from anyone else who is familiar with TPO. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:41:12 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Essence & Rites Sean McCarthy wrote: > Perhaps on a case-by-base basis the Superior can underwrite a Rite? > Laurence decided he liked the idea and since Laurence possibly CANNOT give > out that Rite (IMC, he would not be able to easily...not in his WordSpace) > he instead is Supporting the Rite ... Essence flows from him to Curtis to > the Rite performer in one smooth motion. A better solution is probably to say that if someone using a Word's Rite is not actively promoting the Word, then his use of the Rite results in a net loss to the power of the Word. A Word-bound celestial who's too generous with his Rites will start losing Word Forces. This would require GM vigilance, to prevent munchkinism, but after consideration, may be a better solution than taking the Essence directly from the Word-bound character. Some guidelines would probably be helpful for GMs who want numbers. I may try to work something up. In fact, I'll do a rough, off-the-top-of-my-head draft right now. (Warning: This involves more accounting than In Nomine usually likes. But I think if you're dealing with Words, you need some accounting.) I'd probably classify everyone making use of a Rite in one of several categories. ("Zealously promotes Word on a daily basis"; "Actively promotes Word regularly"; "Neither promotes nor undermines Word, overall"; "Tends to undermine Word with regular behavior"; "Actively works *against* the Word.") Then give each category a factor. This is how much that person adds to or detracts from the Word' Forces daily (assuming he uses the Word's Rites; if he isn't using the Rite, he won't affect the Word). For example: "Zealously promotes Word on a daily basis" = +0.01 "Actively promotes Word regularly" = -0.01 "Neither promotes nor undermines Word, overall" = -0.025 "Tends to undermine Word with regular behavior" = -0.05 "Actively works *against* the Word" = -0.1 Notice that negative weighs more heavily than positive, and the standard is high for helping your Word. Even if you give your Rites out to a lot of people who try to help you, but aren't zealous about it, it's a net loss. This will require Word-bound celestials to have high standards for whom they give their Rites to, or else have a lot of zealous servants to offset the slackers. One person using your Rites and actively working *against* your Word harms you as much as 10 zealous advocates helps you. I'd also say that while negative accumulations WILL reduce your Word Forces, it takes more than just positive accumulation to raise your Word Forces. Positive accumulation will only act to offset negative accumulation. So for example, if you foolishly give a Rite to someone who hates you and starts trying to undermine you (Say, Curtis gives his Rite to an angel who becomes an Outcast, and then goes around flipping people off and being as rude as possible on a daily basis), that one Outcast, if he uses Curtis's Rite on a daily basis (so he's polite exactly once per day), will actually cause the Word of Etiquette to lose a Word-Force every 10 days! Curtis would need TEN zealously polite servants using his Rites to offset the actions of this one rude backstabber. OTOH, if you figure that most of the angels to whom Curtis gives his Rites are usually polite, but not etiquette fanatics, each one of them will erode Curtis's Word Forces by 1 every 100 days (assuming they are using his Rites), so he needs one truly zealous servant to balance each of them, or else his generosity will lead to a gradual decline in his Word. The numbers can be tweaked a bit. Send me comments, and I may put the final version on my web page. (It's probably too complex to become official, but there may need to be official errata fixing the system and stating the above in more general terms.) > This ties nicely, I want to add in, to my Primal Order adaption for In > Nomine where Essence=Primal Flux, Forces=Primal Base, Wordbound=demigods, > (or supported demigods in some cases!), lesser Superiors=Lesser deities, > bigger superiors=Greater deities and Supreme Deities are...? Michael? > Yves? Baal? Lucifer? Kronos? I like Primal Order very much myself. I've been flirting with the idea of mapping In Nomine onto Nobilis, though. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1563 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.