From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 28 04:05:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19377 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:05:50 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id EAA20025 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:01:55 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:01:55 -0600 Message-Id: <200003281001.EAA20025@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1565 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 28 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1565 In this digest: Re: IN> Kobal Software (A Vignette) Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Kobal Software (A Vignette) Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Very nasty Malakite of Eli trick IN> Nocking a Celestial out Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. RE: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. IN> Vapula Tech Re: IN> Punishment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:09:15 EST From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Kobal Software (A Vignette) Despite it being from my archrival I liked it. You just know that the Archangels getting the software are going to indulge their every demented fantasy of bringing ruin down on their servitors for no good reason ("You reported an hour late! Slow Force Stripping!"). Timothy Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation Archrival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:51:47 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell >OTOH, Hell gets Essence every time humans act selfishly.... What level of selfishness are we talking about here? If a human spends points of essence on a selfish action, I agree some of this essence could end up in Hell (the same goes for selfless actions and Heaven). But everyday selfish actions (performed by humans) are usually minor actions, and no essence is spent for it. So if Hell gets essence for it, does it come from Symphony (for promoting the general Word of Selfishness presumably owned by Hell itself) ? If no, then I think that Heaven holds a great advantage in the essence War, if only with the essence coming from worship and Higher Heaven. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:03:28 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell <<< The Essence flows indirectly; selfish acts strengthen diabolical Words, selfless acts strengthen divine Words. (...) No, it doesn't siphon Essence from the human. >>> oops! forget my previous email... I'm catching up with my mail. Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:44:13 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Kobal Software (A Vignette) - --On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 23:23 -0800 "Matthew W." wrote: [Respectful snippage of the neat little viginette that made my sides ache.] Brent Spiner, in the same makeup as ID4, to play Valupa. Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:21:55 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell - --On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 09:51 +0100 Laurent wrote: >> OTOH, Hell gets Essence every time humans act selfishly.... > > What level of selfishness are we talking about here? If a human > spends points of essence on a selfish action, I agree some of this > essence could end up in Hell (the same goes for selfless actions and > Heaven). But everyday selfish actions (performed by humans) are > usually minor actions, and no essence is spent for it. So if Hell > gets essence for it, does it come from Symphony (for promoting the > general Word of Selfishness presumably owned by Hell itself) ? If no, > then I think that Heaven holds a great advantage in the essence War, > if only with the essence coming from worship and Higher Heaven. > With all the latent force of the Higher Heaven and God himself as backer, Heaven has - for all practical purposes - an infinite supply of essence to draw from. Having that advantage, however, won't win the war for them... The essential battleground, and the only one that makes any difference, is in the human heart, where the choice between light and dark is made. It's *easier* to choose the dark for a multitude of reasons. No one wants to admit to anything beyond their ken or control, and certainly no human is comfortable with an absolute standard to which they can never, ever measure up on their own merits. Hell always has the advantage, because the very fabric of human nature makes the Big Lie far more attractive than the alternative. Because the choice hinges on free will (even if, in the short view of the Corporeal realms, it might not seemt that way) and it's so much easier to keep doing what you're doing and let yourself be lulled into any rationale that it's good than to make big scary changes on the margin of the unseen. Sure, Heaven has more essence, but at the end of the day, it comes down to what the human wants to do. To influence that choice, there's nothing a demon can do that an angel cannot. There are things, however, that she *will not* do... There was a burst of firing from the grounds. Not the snap and zing of pellets, but the full-throated crackle of aerodynamically shaped bits of lead travelling extermely fast. There was an answering stutter. The redundant warriors stared one on another. A further burst took out a rather ugly Victorian stained glass window beside the door and stitched a row of holes in the plaster by Crowley's head. Aziraphale grabbed his arm. "What the hell is it?" he said. Crowley smiled like a snake. "I don't see why you're so shocked," said Crowley. "He *wanted* a real gun. Every desire in his head was for a real gun." "But you've turned him loose on all those unprotected people!" said Aziraphale. "Oh, no," said Crowley. "Not exactly. Fair's fair." "The way I see it," said Crowley, "no one *has* to pull the trigger." - "Good Omens", Gaiman and Pratchett ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:11:29 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Very nasty Malakite of Eli trick Dave Taylor wrote: > He wants to use his attunement on a Large Sword (already power +4) in the > hope of getting a Sword with power up to +10. Naturally I ruled that the > attunement ignores the inherent power of the item when used, giving him > only a maximum of +6, but it's still one open for munchkin abuse. I just > thought people might like to be warned. You did the Right Thing. The Attunement means you can use the weapon in a new and creative way... which might even be LESS effective than it would be with a straight whack or two. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:15:06 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Nocking a Celestial out I'm experiencing some trouble bringing a cinematographic effect in my IN games: nocking the players out. Movie heros get knocked out every 5 minutes (usually by both the good and bad guys), but for all I know, it's nearly impossible to knock a Celestial out. That is, without causing him permanent damage. I could make my players take 50% of their body hits all at once, or use the Song of Sleep, Thunder or Entropy on them, but even then, they'd only faint for a few rounds. What I want to do, is put them to sleep for a few hours, so they can easily be transported in some secret place, and wake up in a cell, tied up and defenseless. Without harming them. Is there any way to do that? drugs? if yes, how do drugs work on Celestials? By the way, I received a list of tips to play the bad guys in 5 categories: I.General tips for henchmen of all varieties II.Guidelines for Legion of Doom troops III.Tips for evil cult members IV.Tips for the Evil Overlord's Wicked but Beautiful Daughter V.Tips for the Evil Overlord's Accountant I thought it was hylarious and It just became my RPG Bble. If anybody is interrested, let me know... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:04:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out One problem you may have with knocking out a celestial is that, once unconscious, they may automatically find themselves in the Marches, on the Ethereal Plane, where they can go hunt up help. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:44:59 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > One problem you may have with knocking out a celestial is that, > once unconscious, they may automatically find themselves in > the Marches, on the Ethereal Plane, where they can go hunt up > help. Not exactly. If a celestial has been knocked insensate (bash, bash, thud!) or is drugged into 'sleep', their minds don't go to the Ethereal plane. It's only under certain circumstances that a celestial will go to the ethereal via sleep. 1) willing oneself to sleep, and 2) certain songs are the only two I can think of right now. A Kyrio can manage it, as well, but that's not truly sleep. OTOH, the GM can always opt that the character 'wakes up' on the Ethereal after a suitable amount of recovery. Beth, what do you think? - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:59:25 -0700 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Punishment. Thanks for the responses about the Kronos/Balseraph thang. I didn't know the resonance was restricted, or I woulda asked myself and answered myself in true Kyriotate fashion. Now that I think about it, most of the angelic resonances expose the bearer to the true Symphony, and doing so to a mortal would probably be self-defeating for Kronos anyway... My question this time: I have a Malakite of Destiny in my game. He goofed and, for some inane reason, asked Baal for essence when Baal was walking by to kill someone. Baal gave it to him; the Symphony turned the Malakite into an Outcast as a result. Sure, the Malakite used the essence to attack Baal, but Heaven teaches that the end does NOT justify the means. Anyway, he got in trouble, and has worked his way back into good grace. The thing is, he keeps asking his superiors (he's been handed off to Dominic and then Gabriel in order to rehabilitate him) for more and more forces each time he has ten points to spare. Dominic always said no, and the Malakite seldom pushed the issue, but this time, when Gabriel said no, ("You are not ready."), the Malakite just ran off to Yves. Yves, of course, granted the request -- after making sure the Malakite knew that Gabriel would be very, very angry if it turned out badly, and after expressing his confidence that his faith in his servant was not misplaced. Well, to make a long story even longer, the Malakite is now wanted by Interpol and the CIA regarding international terrorism incidents related to a series of murders and explosions linked directly to him. On camera. (He showed his badge to airport security, and then walked past them and shot a bunch of people. When I say people, I mean airport security. He claims the grenade that blew up the room he was in should make him "dead" so he shouldn't be in Interpol's computers, but there was also no body and a demon on site to ensure that Interpol heard.) Mitigating circumstances: a couple of the people he shot were not really airport security, but were faking. According to the computer records that they altered, they were hired that day. He asked Yves for help. Yves told him that he was sure the Malakite was capable of fixing things, and if he wasn't capable, he should contact Yves again. This hasn't happened yet, and Gabriel hasn't appeared yet for an update on the mission... ...but when she does, what should she do? I ruled force stripping out. There seems to be barriers that aren't crossed, and force stripping another's servant, even if you are supervising him, seems wrong. One thing I am thinking of doing is having Gabriel demand that the Malakite take two extra vows -- in her presence -- and if they aren't suitable, disband his Forces. That should encourage him to make suitably penitant vows, I hope. I am also thinking of taking away a rite or two, but the only rites he has are the standard Yves ones. Finally, I can't fathom him being capable of salvaging his role, so he'll probably get stuck as a janitor or something. The servant also has a first-level distinction of Yves (moment of weakness on my part), but I've read that superiors HATE to remove distinctions. And he's a Malakite, so putting some Discord on him will just make matters worse. Oh, yeah -- he's a police detective. Help me. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:16:23 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. ben wrote: > Oh, yeah -- he's a police detective. > > Help me. Yow. Send him on a mission that will kill his vessel and Role with it. Not a useless mission by any means, but the Role is pretty shot (it'd take longer to salvage it). Make the new vessel small and/or weak. A kid, perhaps, or a young teen. First mission: find the families of the people he killed (the legit ones, that is) and report back to Yves on how they handling the tragedy. If the scene wasn't described in great detail to the PC, have him meet someone in Heaven who fulfilled his Destiny by throwing himself onto a child to protect her from the blast. ;) That person's family should be in pretty bad shape. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:31:17 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. - --On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 11:59 -0700 ben wrote: [Snip Ben's rainbow of fruit pain.] Force Stripping? Salvage his Role? My God, the man is an *idiot* - he should have been eased out of field work AGES ago! *calms down and stops hyperventilating* Okay, how bad is the situation dirtside? I mean, will Gabriel IMMEDIATELY nail him up somewhere as a warning to others, or is there some hope somewhere that in a million years this could turn out all right? Yeesh. All those dead people... Would assigning him some act of penitence/atonement on a more-or-less permament basis work out, or would that be lost on the character or the player? Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:49:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. I like John's idea of making him go check up on the families he bereaved. You might also have his former fellow Gabrielites get twitchy around him, scenting someone cruelly callous and careless... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:00:48 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. At 2:16 PM -0500 3/27/00, John Karakash wrote: >ben wrote: > > > Oh, yeah -- he's a police detective. > > > > Help me. > > Yow. > > Send him on a mission that will kill >his vessel and Role with it. Not a useless >mission by any means, but the Role is pretty >shot (it'd take longer to salvage it). Here's another thought. Yves and Gabriel put their heads together, and report back to the Distincted Malakite. As he's Distincted, they assume he's got *some* redeeming qualities, so they don't scatter his Forces to the wind. That being said, even if they don't officially remove the Distinction, they should restrict his authority and ability to use the ability, at least temporarily. They do, however, take away his Role and Vessel. And give them to someone else. A Mercurian, say. (Perhaps another who needs to show penance.) Someone they want to promote Destiny or Fire (or both) in the Prison System for some reason, for a very long period of time. A sleeper agent, if you will -- a serial killer/ultraviolent rep who ends up transforming the lives of prisoners in a positive way. That takes care of the mess on Earth. Now, as for the Malakite. First off, he "keeps asking for a new Force when he gets ten points," as you say. Clearly, he is not strong enough for his own strength. He must learn. Have the Malakite swear a Vow that he will use no weapons in combat without explicit leave by a commander. Give him a Vessel/1 and *no* *Role.* Any damage he causes will have Symphonic repercussions, and put him in line for a fast vessel death. Make sure he knows that if his Vessel dies, he won't get another right away *and* he'll lose his Distinction. This is a Test of Fire, but not a Test of Warfare. Give him a watcher. A Cherub, most likely. A guide, definitely. One he reports to. And have the pair Eliminating Evil Without Violance. Rather than smiting, the Malakite has to eliminate the sources of Evil. Sometimes, when that source is a demon, the Malakite will be given leave to go in with his guns blazing, but generally not. If this can be fit into your Campaign, it can be a broad role playing challenge. Can the Malakite learn to serve the contrasting needs of Fire and Destiny? Can he be redefined into a different *sort* of Malakite? Or, if he merely endures his punishment, should he be sent to Laurence or David's service and be done with? Good luck. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:54:09 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. ben wrote: > Help me. This guy is a munchkin, and the angel is definitely NOT acting very angelic. Enforced vows and the loss of a Role are a good start. He should also be in the doghouse with ALL of his Superiors, and very close to being cast out again (or disbanded). - -David ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 2000 20:57:35 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:34:15 -0500 Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Tim Groth wrote: >> I doubt that God has ever been hurt. > >Mileage varies. If you run a campaign in which Judaism or >Christianity is reasonably true, God has suffered a lot of >emotional pain in relation to us. > >According to mainstream Christianity, God was mocked, flogged, >and nailed up to die of shock and suffocation. heh, to paraphrase a popular song, "I get knocked down, but I get up again." if you buy into Christianity, of course. factoring in Christianity, one observes that only part of the Trinity was beaten to a bloody pulp and murdered. the other two parts likely suffered emothional trauma, but the Divine had enough power to resurrect the Son. i don't see anything that indicates IHVH's power has waned. the question is moot if God simply watches the battle between Heaven and Hell as Redneck has postulated, but if He intervenes, the reckoning will be Hell's. personally, i'm counting on David, Laurence, Gabriel, and Michael to lay down a swath of destruction no matter the number of demons Hell throws at them. -=|horsefly|=- -=|horsefly|=- Happiness is a laser designator and a friend in the artillery battalion. --Clayton A. Oliver ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:57:08 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. >They do, however, take away his Role and Vessel. And give them to >someone else. A Mercurian, say. (Perhaps another who needs to show >penance.) Someone they want to promote Destiny or Fire (or both) in >the Prison System for some reason, for a very long period of time. A >sleeper agent, if you will -- a serial killer/ultraviolent rep who >ends up transforming the lives of prisoners in a positive way. That >takes care of the mess on Earth. "Green Mile", anyone? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:59:58 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. Then there's the "Fall of the Malakim" solution. Stick him someplace where he has to deal with demons on a regular basis, *without* attacking them. This should be very unpleasant for him (especially once the demons figure out what's going on)... and it also lets you run a mixed campaign, at least for a while. The only tricky bit is doing it in a way that makes sense. Of course, when Gabriel's involved, it doesn't *have* to, really... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:23:46 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out > By the way, I received a list of tips to play the bad guys in 5 categories: > I.General tips for henchmen of all varieties > II.Guidelines for Legion of Doom troops > III.Tips for evil cult members > IV.Tips for the Evil Overlord's Wicked but Beautiful Daughter > V.Tips for the Evil Overlord's Accountant I would be interested in reading these. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:17:16 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. At 3:57 PM -0400 3/27/00, Douglas Muir wrote: > >They do, however, take away his Role and Vessel. And give them to > >someone else. A Mercurian, say. (Perhaps another who needs to show > >penance.) Someone they want to promote Destiny or Fire (or both) in > >the Prison System for some reason, for a very long period of time. A > >sleeper agent, if you will -- a serial killer/ultraviolent rep who > >ends up transforming the lives of prisoners in a positive way. That > >takes care of the mess on Earth. > >"Green Mile", anyone? > I haven't seen it, but from what I've heard it might fit. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:30:27 -0500 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. > From: Douglas Muir > Then there's the "Fall of the Malakim" solution. Stick him someplace where > he has to deal with demons on a regular basis, *without* attacking them. > This should be very unpleasant for him (especially once the demons figure > out what's going on)... and it also lets you run a mixed campaign, at least > for a while. Gack, no. While the fall of the malakim is a nice plot, the basic premise just DOESN'T make sense. Making a malakim choose between serving its purpose, serving its oaths and serving its superior is a great role playing challenge, but its a situation that the character should choose. Forcing the character into that situation is cruel. The character gets bitter, it teaches the character nothing, but that superiors are capricious, cruel, and care more about hurting their servitors than redemption. While this would work for a demon prince, it makes almost no sense for an angelic superior. Forcing the character to take dissonance and discord, upon the superior's (and GM's) whim is Wrong. Anyone pulled that on me, and I'd walk away from the game, not to return. (Fall of the Malakim is worse; David is punishing this poor creature, with no concern for its well being, letting it build up discord after discord, not checking up on the angel, and, if the scenes are to be believed, there is even evidence of the malakim LOOSING FAITH IN HEAVEN. Can you tell I didn't like this plot line, or accept the premise?). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:41:28 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. The problem is, perhaps, finding a punishment that: (a) doesn't conflict with play (including group play) if you want to keep the Malakite in play (b) duly expresses the feelings of the Superiors in question (c) will cause the character to realise he has done something wrong and repent and change his ways. I'd suggest that this isn't so much due a direct reprimand from Gabriel, as from _Soldekai_. (Keep Gabriel in the background for later). Have a few angry fellow-Malakim of Fire haul this guy up to the Volcano for a nice private trial (they don't really want to get Judgement involved yet, after all). Let him call his fellow angels to prove that he hasn't actually been _cruel_ yet (just a wanton murderer), and let the others have the "fun" of bearing witness to save his neck. See how embarassed and guilty you can get him feeling if other angels -- his _brothers_, his own Choir -- are disapproving of him. Give him some sort of ceremonial brand of shame, if he really messes up. Let his reputation get around. "Wasn't X the guy who shot up a load of innocent people in that massacre at the airport?" Finally, be really cruel. In order to let him work off some of the penalty, give him a junior angel to train. A hardcase of some sort. Make him responsible for said junior. (In my own ftf game, I gave the hardcase Malakite a bouncy young straight-from-Heaven Ofanite to train, even though the poor Malakite hadn't committed any sins. But then I'm sadistic.) Let the junior do exactly the same sort of thing that the Malakite does, and need saving from the Malakite's own bad habits, and see if a bit of that will rub his nose in his own mistakes. - --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:04:37 PST From: "Miles 2 Go" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. >Forcing the character to take dissonance and discord, upon the >superior's >(and GM's) whim is Wrong. Anyone pulled that on me, >and I'd walk away from the game, not to return. He serves David, who is known for a tough love attitude. If you serve David and screw up as bad as he did, then discord and dissonance is not unreasonable or unexpected. >(Fall of the Malakim is worse; David is punishing this poor creature, >with >no concern for its well being, letting it build up discord >after discord, not checking up on the angel, and, if the scenes >are to be believed, there is even evidence of the malakim LOOSING >FAITH IN HEAVEN. Can you tell I didn't like this plot line, or >accept the premise?). Read Job lately? The plot line may have holes you can drive a battleship through, but the premise sings. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:21:21 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Punishment. Ben wrote: > I ruled force stripping out. There seems to be barriers that aren't > crossed, and force stripping another's servant, even if you are > supervising > him, seems wrong. One thing I am thinking of doing is having > Gabriel demand > that the Malakite take two extra vows -- in her presence -- and if they > aren't suitable, disband his Forces. That should encourage him to make > suitably penitant vows, I hope. I am also thinking of taking > away a rite or > two, but the only rites he has are the standard Yves ones. Why is Force-stripping definitely out? In this case I think it would be acceptable because the Malakite was told "No" by Gabriel, who was in charge of him, and he went whining to Yves. Now why did Yves grant the request? Because he knew that Gabriel would force-strip the Malakite and teach him a valuable lesson about humility and following orders. But anyway, if force-stripping is out, reducing his vessel level, additional oaths and Discord are the ways to go. Discord isn't so bad as long as it's not Celestial and your superior knows about it. If a triad find him it's humiliating for a Malakite to admit that yes, he has Discord, and yes, his superior knows about it because she inflicted it on him as punishement. In my game, a PC Malakite of the Sword publicly disagreed with Laurence on his support of the Catholic church. Laurence punished the servitor by inflicting him with a level 3 Vulnerability to Catholic Churches (being inside them). Laurence also instructed his servitors that if the PC wants to meet with any of them it must occur in a Catholic Church to drive the point home. For this character I'd do something similar. Give him a Vulnerability to Fire, from the Archangel of Fire herself and then have him hounded by a couple of her Ofanim, the celestial bounty hunters. IMO, of course, Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:18:47 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. >Gack, no. While the fall of the malakim is a nice plot, the basic premise >just DOESN'T make sense. 1) It's David. Mr. Stubborn Hardcase Tough Love. 2) Not everything Heaven does has to make sense at the Servitor level... >Making a malakim choose between serving its purpose, serving its oaths and >serving its superior is a great role playing challenge, but its a situation >that the character should choose. Forcing the character into that >situation is cruel. Depends. Forcing him into it as a punishment that he has deserved, for choices that he's made, can work. If you let the player know beforehand that "if you do that, there's going to be BIG trouble of some sort," then it's perfectly fair to have his character ordered into some really dreadful situation. Having the dreadfulness connected to the offense is a bonus, yes. >Forcing the character to take dissonance and discord, upon the superior's >(and GM's) whim is Wrong. Anyone pulled that on me, and I'd walk away from >the game, not to return. My whim, certainly not; I agree. His choice, certainly yes... that's what roleplaying is about. I recently had a Seraph who'd picked up a Geas to a demon. She'd done it to trade for information that she thought the party really needed (Seraph of Revelation, ya know? The original cats that curiousity killed). So the demon used the Geas to make the Seraph sit in on the interrogation of a human Sorceror, and scan his words for Truth. Complication: the Sorceror had been secretly working with Heaven, because he wanted to redeem. He was still a selfish bastard, and his redemption by no means assured... but the Truth was that it was possible, it _could_ happen. The Sorceror, of course, was lying his head off to the demons ("Of course I'm loyal to Hell's cause, mighty one!"). Wherefore if the Seraph spoke truly and told the demons what's up, they would rip the Sorceror into itsy bitsy pieces and watch his screaming soul go plummeting down to Hell. The upshot was that the Seraph, after *much* squirming, ate three! points! of Dissonance! and the Sorceror went free. Though he's now the focus of rather more angelic attention than he may have bargained for... Point here was that the PC got into in a hell of a spot, one where she probably *had* to either take Dissonance or suffer some other severe ill effects (Heaven does not look kindly on helping demons damn a soul to Hell)... but she put herself there by her own choices. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:07:05 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. > Oh, yeah -- he's a police detective. > > Help me. Set him up. And then kill off his vessel. This'll take out the role, as well, if you handle it right. Give him a nice, weak vessel, a complete change of scenery, and a menial job. Then give out far fewer experience points and don't give in when he wants another force. Actually, you might also try saying 'no' in a fashion that makes pestering a Superior a Really Bad Idea when he comes up with additional stuff that he wants and you don't want him to have. If you're feeling particularly nasty, you can always sick a couple of high-power demons on him, get him into celestial combat, and cost him a couple of forces that way, as well. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:43:22 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. >If you're feeling particularly nasty, you can always sick a couple of >high-power demons on him, get him into celestial combat, and cost him a >couple of forces that way, as well. The Hellhounds. IMC, these nasties are Djinn of the Game with 1 or 2 Corp Forces, 1 Ethereal, and 6 Celestial. They're not much use in the corporeal realm... typically, they have low Strength and cheap vessels (often animals) at level 1 or 2. But they're really, really bad news in Celestial combat. Besides having 6 Cel Forces and 12 Wills, they've usually got high Fighting skill and a few Celestial songs. The Game uses them in teams of two or three, led by a Master of the Hounds... typically a 10-12 force Gamester who *does* have good Corp and Ethereal forces, plus a decent Vessel. The Master's job is to force a Renegade (or suspected Renegade) into going Celestial, whether by trickery, spookery, or just by threatening its Vessel. The Hounds then move in and drag the Renegade down to Hell. And very few Servitors are going to be able to handle two or three of these bad boys... they can do a lot of Celestial damage very quickly indeed. Let the Mal get in the way of a hunt. Rip, rip... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:07:32 -0500 From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. From: ben > He asked Yves for help. Yves told him that he was sure the Malakite was > capable of fixing things, and if he wasn't capable, he should contact Yves > again. This hasn't happened yet, and Gabriel hasn't appeared yet for an > update on the mission... ...but when she does, what should she do? The two-vows-or-disband-Forces sounds good. But if Dominic finds out what happened (and how is anyone going to hide it from the Seraph in charge of the Inquisition if even Interpol knows about it?), he'll send a Triad to bring him to trial, too. So he'll have to take the two vows *and* keep one step ahead of the Triad hunting him... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:50:33 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Vapula Tech http://www.salon.com/comics/lay/2000/03/28/lay/index.html - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:01:32 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. I don't think cruelty would be any good in this situation. After all, the two Superiors he's reporting to are not cruel at all. Gabriel even spends most of Her time punishing them... Plus, it would bring conflict and bitterness in the game, and nobody wants that. Killing his vessel and Role (and make the new vessel small and/or weak) is a pretty good idea. Since the Role is now a bit f****d up anyway, he can't possibly keep on using this vessel. Though I absolutely LOVED The Green Mile, I don't think it would be a suitable solution. The character is a Malakite, he likes action, and can't stand evil. Spending quiet years in a prison would probably bore him, and don't forget that most of these guys are pretty evil (I mean in reality, not in the movies where the imprisonned hero is always a victim of circumstances). He would more than likely end up killing 70% of his fellows prisoners!! Now I think Yves should be the one to strip one force from the Malakite's soul. Just one. I don't consider it as cruel: Yves only believes that the Malakite is not ready to get so many Forces, and such a power is simply dragging him away from his destiny a bit more everyday. And that also solves the problem of your player always asking for more Forces. Yves will only allow him to get a new Force when he'll think the angel is ready (Yves will also ask Gabriel not to give the angel any Force without his approval). As for Gabriel's punishment, I like the idea of the Cherub guide. But make it a less powerfull Cherub (say 7-8 Forces) without any distinction. The Malakite will only use violence when the Cherub agrees, etc. Being supervised by a less powerfull and distinctionless being should hurt the player's pride, teach him humility, and show him that Forces and Distinctions don't grant him wisdom. And then, have Gabriel send him on his new mission: find the families of the people he killed and bring them hope again. If you really want to scare him, you can replace Gabriel by the bunch of angry fellow-Malakim on this one (who will keep an eye on him anyway). If you want to give him some discord (which I don't consider to be necessary), try to make it help the Malakite's improvement: obviously, murderous or berserk wouldn't help! Something like Mercyfull would be good (Coward, maybe??). > Laurence punished the servitor by inflicting him with a level 3 Vulnerability to Catholic Churches (being inside them). I love this one! Well done! ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1565 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.