From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 28 17:08:05 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05387 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:08:04 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA25947 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:04:38 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:04:38 -0600 Message-Id: <200003282304.RAA25947@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1566 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 28 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1566 In this digest: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out Re: IN> Punishment Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out IN> Fwd: Grigory Resonance/Dissonance Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question IN> Fwd: Re: Grigory Resonance/Dissonance Re: IN> Kobal Software (A Vignette) Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out Re: IN> Punishment. IN> Fwd: Hierarchy of Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Fwd: Hierarchy of Hell Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out RE: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell RE: IN> Economies of Essence... (Re: The Home Front) RE: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell RE: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question Re: IN> Fwd: Grigory Resonance/Dissonance Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. RE: IN> Punishment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:12:26 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out <<< One problem you may have with knocking out a celestial is that, once unconscious, they may automatically find themselves in the Marches, on the Ethereal Plane, where they can go hunt up help. (John). Not exactly. If a celestial has been knocked insensate (bash, bash, thud!) or is drugged into 'sleep', their minds don't go to the Ethereal plane. (Earl). >>> I thought (like John) that any Celestial would automatically ascend to the Marches when knocked out. Is your rule canon, Earl? If yes, can you specify the source? I think I'll have some reading to do... Now getting my players 'wake up' in the Marches wouldn't be much of a problem. Most of them have never played in the Marches (one only), and they don't have any contacts there anyway... They think the Marches are boring (the kind of all-action no-thinking players, you know)... Anyway, I'm still looking for some House rules on drugs and other ways to knock a Celestial out... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Punishment Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:54:09 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. ben wrote:> Help me. >This guy is a munchkin, and the angel is definitely >NOT acting very angelic. Enforced vows and the loss of >a Role are a good start. He should also be in the >doghouse with ALL of his Superiors, and very close >to being cast out again (or disbanded). >- -David Hoo, yeah. Making him take the vow "I will never pester my Superiors for gifts" is good. Assigning him to Laurence or David for a while is good (they've seen all the tricks. They know Malakites. They're ignorant of the term 'slack'). Sticking him in Heaven, doing menial labor is good (read: retire PC for a session or two. Or seven.). Sticking him in Heaven, working for David _and_ Laurence, _with_ the above vow is probably overkill... ... Failing that, wait until the next time he rolls a Divine Intervention and have the hand of God whack him upside the head a couple of times. That'l learn him. Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Negative Reinforcement __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:31:11 -0500 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. > From: "Miles 2 Go" > >Forcing the character to take dissonance and discord, upon the >superior's > >(and GM's) whim is Wrong. Anyone pulled that on me, > >and I'd walk away from the game, not to return. > He serves David, who is known for a tough love attitude. If > you serve David and screw up as bad as he did, then discord and > dissonance is not unreasonable or unexpected. The key to that line is "love". Regardless of how tough it is -- David didn't check up on Maximilian for YEARS. Nor has David had anyone else keep an eye on him. Admittedly, David's time-scale is a little screwy, and David tops my personal list for Superiors about to go off the deep end (much more subtly than Khalid or Gabriel. He seems on the letting the ends justify the means, and becoming too passive, because everything works itself out in time). Still, someone checking on Max when he's in his punishment, to make sure he's still learning something, he's not completely broken down, and to report back to David when he's ready to be reintegrated. > >(Fall of the Malakim is worse; David is punishing this poor creature, >with > >no concern for its well being, letting it build up discord > >after discord, not checking up on the angel, and, if the scenes > >are to be believed, there is even evidence of the malakim LOOSING > >FAITH IN HEAVEN. Can you tell I didn't like this plot line, or > >accept the premise?). > Read Job lately? The plot line may have holes you can drive > a battleship through, but the premise sings. I'd also argue, in an In Nomine world, Job was one of Nybbas's (or a predecessor of his) early successes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:36:06 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. At 11:01 AM +0100 3/28/00, Laurent wrote: > >Though I absolutely LOVED The Green Mile, I don't think it would be a suitable >solution. The character is a Malakite, he likes action, and can't stand evil. >Spending quiet years in a prison would probably bore him, and don't >forget that >most of these guys are pretty evil (I mean in reality, not in the movies where >the imprisonned hero is always a victim of circumstances). He would more than >likely end up killing 70% of his fellows prisoners!! Note in my suggestion, the Malakite does *not* end up in prison. His old Vessel and Role end up in Prison, with a different Angel inside them (probably a Mercurian). That was more to have someone wrap up the fallout from the Malakite's tragic lapse of judgement. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:51:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out Laurent wrote: > Is your rule canon, Earl? It's just what I thought canon was. That's why I said it *may* be that the celestials automatically wake up on the Ethereal Plane. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:27:07 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out <<< It's just what I thought canon was. That's why I said it *may* be that the celestials automatically wake up on the Ethereal Plane. (Earl). >>> Don't tell me I did that thing again... I always get mixed up with names!! What I meant was: I thought that a knocked out Celestial would automatically enter the Marches. And what surprised me was: <<< If a celestial has been knocked insensate or is drugged into 'sleep', their minds don't go to the Ethereal plane. It's only under certain circumstances that a celestial will go to the ethereal via sleep." (John). >>> That's what you get when you try to reply to all your emails at once... sorry. Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:58:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Grigory Resonance/Dissonance Remember, if you're not s*bscribed to either the digest or the regular list, you need to... send mail to with the following command in the body of your email message: s*bscribe in_nomine_posters-l your@address.here (Where the * is replaces with the correct vowel.) Also remember -- ONLY SEND PLAIN ASCII TEXT! No MIME, no HTML. Got me? Find the preferences in Microsoft Outlook Express and set them to PLAIN TEXT. If you don't, then I get reeeeeeal cranky and start talking uns*bscribing people... - --Beth, Djinn List Admin with a cranky baby in her lap >From: "Psionic Imperator" >Subject: Grigory Resonance/Dissonance >Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:27:47 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00EC_01BF9677.0E8C17C0" >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 >X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01BF9677.0E8C17C0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >~Heya.. Has anyone posted decent Resonance/Dissonance abilities for = >Grigory? I'm using a Grigory in my campaign right now, but I'd like to = >know what alternantives there may be to my own musings on what these = >angels may have had as a resonance. Any help would be much appreciated, = >thanks!~ > >~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ >Keith/djPsionic >West Coast Representation > http://www.interdimensional.com/ >Seventh Image >http://www.mp3.com/SeventhImage >"Fame is a vapour.. The only earthly >certainty is oblivion." > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_00EC_01BF9677.0E8C17C0 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [snipped by the Djinn Princess of List Admin -- it's just the same in raw HTML.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:11:43 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question At 1:17 AM -0800 3/26/00, Jo Hart wrote: [...] >But I'd always imagined that the _real_ point of a rite was that it >strengthened the Word of the Wordbound. [...] So (ignoring canon), this >means that Wordbound rites should typically be a bit more demanding than >some of the easier Superior rites. Oh, nice one. That's the sort of thing that playtesters might want to keep in mind for the future... - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:13:43 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Re: Grigory Resonance/Dissonance >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:00:46 -0500 >From: Earl Wajenberg >Reply-To: earlw@mc.com >Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Grigory Resonance/Dissonance > >"Psionic Imperator" asks: > >> Has anyone posted decent Resonance/Dissonance abilities for >> Grigory? > >There are resonnance and dissonance conditions given for Grigori >in the upcoming "GURPS In Nomine," which you can read in playtest >if you s*bscribe to Pyramid (which I recommend). Since it's >written for GURPS mechanics, it doesn't immediately answer the >question of what the mechanics are / will be for Grigori in >IN proper, but, qualitatively: > >Grigori, the Watchers, get a bonus to detect disturbance. That's >their resonnance. It is then dissonant for them to not ACT on >detecting disturbance. The action can be very indirect, but they >can't simply ignore it. > >There is an interesting non-canonical write-up for Grigori by >Kirt Dankmyer, in the In Nomine Collection, at: > > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/Settings/grigori.html > >where their ressonance is the ability to spot crucial details and >dissonant to get too involved with humans. > >Earl > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:18:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kobal Software (A Vignette) At 11:23 PM -0800 3/26/00, Matthew W. wrote: [...] >"I call it SimHeaven," Kobal said,[...] >Elizabeth McCoy said: >>Marc's are selling things, buying things, Trading things, serving as >>go-betweens for other deals, and generally serve as Heaven's Commercial >>zone... (SimHeaven, yeah!) > >(She's responsible for this. Not me. At least I didn't put in the part >of about Jordi getting a copy of Lemmings.) ***LLEEEEET'S GO!*** *creak* All it's missing are little halos for the dead lemmings, I tell you! Hm. Addictive Music. Maybe it's Fleurity's! - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:24:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out Well, first you bind them into a relic arrow, then you set the little forked part against the bowstring, and voila! You have nocked your celestial... Oh, right. At 1:44 PM -0500 3/27/00, John Karakash wrote: >Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> >> One problem you may have with knocking out a celestial is that, >> once unconscious, they may automatically find themselves in >> the Marches, on the Ethereal Plane, where they can go hunt up >> help. > > Not exactly. If a celestial has been knocked insensate >(bash, bash, thud!) or is drugged into 'sleep', their minds >don't go to the Ethereal plane. [....] > Beth, what do you think? For a celestial, unconscious doesn't equal asleep. (For a human, it might. GM call.) If you bash someone over the head... I suggest using the a varient of the "Optional Realism" rules in the GMG. Dictate that the blow must have a certain CD, or be at a penalty to the target number (or both!), and if it is not dodged, then the target is knocked out. (Suitable amounts of hits might also do it.) Use drugs to keep the person asleep for longer than seems logical for the blow to keep them knocked out. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:44:45 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. At 11:59 AM -0700 3/27/00, ben wrote: >I have a Malakite of Destiny in my game. He goofed and, for some inane >reason, asked Baal for essence when Baal was walking by to kill someone. >The thing is, he keeps asking his superiors (he's been handed off to >Dominic and then Gabriel >for more and more forces each >time he has ten points to spare. [...] this time, when Gabriel said no, >[...] the Malakite just ran off to Yves. > He claims the >grenade that blew up the room he was in should make him "dead" so he >shouldn't be in Interpol's computers, but there was also no body and a demon >on site to ensure that Interpol heard.) If there's no body, he's not dead. Forensics are _very_ good at spotting even traces of body. Human technology is not to be sneezed at. >Mitigating circumstances: a couple of the people he shot were not really >airport security, but were faking. According to the computer records that >they altered, they were hired that day. If human authorities don't uncover the altered records, that's not going to mitigate much... O:> Well, it might mitigate with celestials. >I ruled force stripping out. There seems to be barriers that aren't >crossed, and force stripping another's servant, even if you are supervising >him, seems wrong. Hm. Remember that Gabriel's a little nuts -- and even if the Malakite doesn't give her permission to rearrange his Forces, she can still pick him up and yank a Force off by sheer damage. (Roll ramdomly for which Realm of Force gets toasted.) Or pick him up and slowly pick though his resistance. (Have I mentioned it's _bad_ to be captured by a Superior who is PO'ed at you?) Also, Yves may have given her permission to do What Needs To Be Done. Or will give it. Prophecy is funky that way. O:> >One thing I am thinking of doing is having Gabriel demand >that the Malakite take two extra vows -- in her presence -- and if they >aren't suitable, disband his Forces. That should encourage him to make >suitably penitant vows, I hope. Hee. Or else you can get rid of the annoying character, eh? >I am also thinking of taking away a rite or >two, but the only rites he has are the standard Yves ones. Hard to yank that off, yeah. > Finally, I can't >fathom him being capable of salvaging his role, so he'll probably get stuck >as a janitor or something. Definitely. If he gets _any_ Role back at all. And his vessel will need to be changed in appearance. >The servant also has a first-level distinction >of Yves (moment of weakness on my part), but I've read that superiors HATE >to remove distinctions. And it's Yves' Distinction, and he's being enigmatic, yeah... > And he's a Malakite, so putting some Discord on him >will just make matters worse. Nah. Merciful will help, honest. Along with an order to go tell Judgment why he's got it. >Oh, yeah -- he's a police detective. > >Help me. Kill him. Oh, okay, don't kill him yet... I do strongly suggest finding the Writer's Digest series of "Howdunit" books, though -- the Police Procedural and Scene of the Crime books are really great. Another thing to think about is having Gaby get really disgusted and bounce him back to Dominic (as a double-insult, if you think about it!), and then he'll have to face the Paddle of Justice, to paraquote some Fiat stuff. (And of course, use any Better Ideas from others! Hee.) At 2:49 PM -0500 3/27/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >You might also have his former fellow Gabrielites >get twitchy around him, scenting someone cruelly callous and >careless... Seraphim. He's undoubtedly lying to himself about it... Or, hee... If you think the _player_ can be taught... Have Gabriel give the character the Seraph of Fire attunement, and then have it activate every time he wanders past a mirror or other semi-reflective surface, until he's punished _himself_ enough... At 7:07 PM -0600 3/27/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: >Then give out far fewer experience points and don't give in when he wants >another force. What she said. Make him _earn_ his Forces on specific "Force-quest" adventures, maybe. If he munchkins about how he's got the points, wave the GMG around. I'm sure there's a part there about how points are not necessarily useful alone, if there's no _other_ reason. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:50:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Hierarchy of Hell (The posters-list doesn't forward to the main list -- you have to use in_nomine-l's address for that. And you have to be _s*bscribed_ to one of the three lists!) >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine_posters-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Mark Shirley ] >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:19:22 +0100 >From: Mark Shirley >Subject: Hierarchy of Hell > >(I hope this is the right address -- this is my first post despite 3 years >of lurking. Anyone know of an In Nomine game running in the Newcastle (UK) >area? I really would like to play...) > >Hi all, > >Just a quick question regarding the Hierarchy/Lowerarchy of Hell. I've been >trying to find some names to complete a list I started. I've read in a >number of (non-IN) sources about the following groups of demons, and >wondered if anyone on this list could fill in the others (I haven't got >access to the original sources). > >According to Abra-Melin the Mage (real world souce, as in "the Secret Magic >of..."), there are 4 sub-princes of Hell (Satan, Lucifer, Leviathan and >Beliar, IIRC) and 8 arch demons. Who are the latter? I've got the name of >three (of which Magot and I think Beelzebub are included, but I'm not sure). > >There is also reference to Adramelech, king of fire, who sits on the 8th >throne of Hell (and the source always mentions that there are 10 such >thrones). Anyone know who the other 9 are? > >I'm looking for some names to confuse PCs with when they come across human >perceptions of demonic affairs. > >Mark > > > >In off the moors, down through the mist-lands, > God-cursed Grendel came greedily loping; >The bane of the race of men roamed forth, > hunting for a prey in the high hall of Hrothgar > Beowulf > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:14:09 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell At 17:22 -0500 3/24/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> What development would give them the edge over God, should He >> intervene at Armageddon? > >That's the question, isn't it? My own theory is that most of Hell is >basically waiting until they have the balls to call the "God bluff," and >hoping in the meantime that Lucifer will somehow *prove* that God really >is a non-entity, or that He can be taken down. What is Lucifer waiting >for? Final proof of the non-existance of God.... More seriously, I'd suggest the following two items: - Indication that God can't, or *won't* directly intervene; one way to find this out would be to "push the envelope" and see if God reacts directly. Sounds a lot like the current strategy of several DPs.... - Winning the battle for human souls in such a way that God has to concede that Lucifer was right, that they were not more worthy of His favor than the angels. Again, this matches Hell's current behavior well. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:06:21 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Hierarchy of Hell > >Just a quick question regarding the Hierarchy/Lowerarchy of Hell. I've been > >trying to find some names to complete a list I started. I've read in a > >number of (non-IN) sources about the following groups of demons, and > >wondered if anyone on this list could fill in the others (I haven't got > >access to the original sources). > > > >According to Abra-Melin the Mage (real world souce, as in "the Secret Magic > >of..."), there are 4 sub-princes of Hell (Satan, Lucifer, Leviathan and > >Beliar, IIRC) and 8 arch demons. Who are the latter? I've got the name of > >three (of which Magot and I think Beelzebub are included, but I'm not sure). > > > >There is also reference to Adramelech, king of fire, who sits on the 8th > >throne of Hell (and the source always mentions that there are 10 such > >thrones). Anyone know who the other 9 are? Well, there are not in Dictionary of Angel's, The Treasury of Witchcraft, or the Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, which are among the first books I thought they might possible be in. You could try a copy of the Goetia as translated by Mathers and Crowley I believe and reprinted a couple of years ago by Weiser. all of these books will give you tons (and yes I mean *tons*) of "real" demons names, aspects, etc. The last three aren't anything I'd read alone while the lights are out but should give you plenty of creepy source material. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:31:39 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell At 23:00 -0500 3/24/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 3:56 PM -0600 3/24/00, David Edelstein wrote: >> It's what Elizabeth has called >>"diffuse Essence" that coalesces in Heaven or Hell, and the best >>Superiors can do is take note of when they're experiencing an overall >>increase or decrease in their Essence "revenue," and try to correlate it >>to what's happening on Earth. > > Right. Diffuse Essence. Presumed to collect around Tethers, >IIRC. I think there may be some hint to that effect in the Liber >Castellorum? Or was it just a background assumption? The Essence flow through Tethers is quite explicitly described. Exactly where this Essence comes from is a little less clear (deliberately). My own picture of it is that the "diffuse Essence" collects at locations with affinities to the Word; get a big enough buildup, and it "blows through" - -- i.e., creates a Tether -- to the celestial (or ethereal) realm. The Tether then provides a conduit for the Essence to the Superior, providing a sort of drainpipe for the Word-related Essence buildup in the area. This also tends to explain why some Superiors have many small, weak, Tethers, while others have a few strong ones -- total Tether power is a measure of total Word power, but the distribution of a Word on Earth likewise affects the frequency and power of the related Tethers. Widespread Words like Lust tend to be diffuse enough that the Tethers are frequent but weak, while Words like War tend to be emphasized in a few, rather concentrated locations. This isn't necessarily all canon, though it did influence my section of the Castellorum. It's a rather mechanistic view, and, if known to celestials, would make it somewhat easier to create Tethers on demand. So I deliberately was vague about some things, to give GMs more latitude on Tether placement and creation, as well as to make them more viably ineffable. >>The point about the relative longevity of Heavenly souls vs. damned >>souls is a good one. > >Though Heavenly souls do have the option of ascending to the >higher Heavens... The question is whether this stops them from contributing Essence to the Cause. John was suggesting that they didn't. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:05:47 -0700 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. > Or, hee... If you think the _player_ can be taught... > Have Gabriel give the character the Seraph of Fire attunement, > and then have it activate every time he wanders past a mirror > or other semi-reflective surface, until he's punished _himself_ > enough... Hey, can Gabriel *do* that? He's still a Malakite of Destiny. I like the idea a lot, although I think the other two Gabrielites would claw my eyes out for giving this guy an attunement. That's part of the thing. I like a lot of the suggestions, but the key thing I'm considering here is that the player is my friend, and I'd like a punishment that both makes sense with the game and keeps the game fun for him. I rather like the one where he has to babysit another angel who has the same flaws he has... and having him tried by Fire and, after walking out of the volcano, have a triad waiting for him. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:11:51 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Nocking a Celestial out At 10:15 -0500 3/27/00, Laurent wrote: >I'm experiencing some trouble bringing a cinematographic effect in my IN games: >nocking the players out. Movie heros get knocked out every 5 minutes (usually by >both the good and bad guys), but for all I know, it's nearly impossible to knock >a Celestial out. That is, without causing him permanent damage. I could make my >players take 50% of their body hits all at once, or use the Song of Sleep, >Thunder or Entropy on them, but even then, they'd only faint for a few rounds. > >What I want to do, is put them to sleep for a few hours, so they can easily be >transported in some secret place, and wake up in a cell, tied up and >defenseless. Without harming them. Is there any way to do that? drugs? if yes, >how do drugs work on Celestials? Drugs work (I think the rules are in the CPG, as well as an earlier version in Night Music). Any form will work -- the classics are chloroform on a handkerchief, a "mickey finn" in a drink, or the rather cinematic "sleeping gas". Depriving them of oxygen for a while should also work, but they'll revive fairly quickly -- better be ready to inject them with something. The main problem with drugs, if I recall correctly, is that celestials are more likely to "shake them off" than humans; it may take several attempts, high dosages, or prolonged exposure. Another thing you could do is steal a bit of GURPS mechanics -- if I recall it right, a head blow of even a single hit point can cause unconsciousness, if the target fails an HT roll (probably an ST roll in IN). This implies the use of hit locations and "called shots" in combat, a can of worms you may not want to open. Note that the core rules for Shedim imply that celestials can be rendered unconscious for extended periods, even if it's never explained how this can happen. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:27:56 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: RE: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Earl Wajenberg > Sent: 24 March 2000 21:56 > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell > > > David Edelstein wrote: > > > But that assumes that God _won't_ intervene directly, come > > Armageddon. If He does, game over for Hell. And since the demons > > can't be sure that won't happen, they're not ready to start the > > final battle....yet. > > What development would give them the edge over God, should He > intervene at Armageddon? God changing sides. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:28:00 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: RE: IN> Economies of Essence... (Re: The Home Front) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Elizabeth McCoy > > At 3:19 PM -0500 3/21/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >Am I the only one who simply doesn't accept that Heaven runs on an > >Essence based economy, but instead runs on a soft currency based > >economy in those (rare) sections that have economics at all? > > > >The idea that Blessed Souls and Angels have to yield up their > >precious Essence -- the very flow of the divine within them, the bit > >of hope and luck that drives their activities -- to get a cup of > >coffee bothers me greatly. > > Well, it depends upon how _much_ Essence is required to make a cup > of coffee. I mean, it could be that 1 Essence makes enough for > _100_ cups of coffee (or more), so either you start a tab, or you > buy everyone in the joint a cup of coffee as well -- which makes > Heaven a little brighter, since (assuming it's good coffee, and > this _is_ Heaven, right?) you've just cheered up everyone around > you with your generosity! > > If it were a 1-Essence, 1-coffee equation, that _would_ be icky... From Eli's Attunements 1 essence turns 1 cubic quart of water into coffee. Or 1 cubic foot of packing foam into ground coffee. One assumes there must be more efficient methods. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:27:58 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: RE: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Earl Wajenberg > Sent: 24 March 2000 22:34 > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell > > > Tim Groth wrote: > > > I doubt that God has ever been hurt. > > Mileage varies. If you run a campaign in which Judaism or > Christianity is reasonably true, God has suffered a lot of > emotional pain in relation to us. > > According to mainstream Christianity, God was mocked, flogged, > and nailed up to die of shock and suffocation. On a slightly cynical reading of the Bible and Koran, One might say there are multiple occasions when God has had his feelings hurt. The Fall being one of the more noticible. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:28:02 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: RE: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of David Edelstein > Sent: 25 March 2000 15:34 > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> 'Hi There!', and a first question > > > "Kiara S. Legner" wrote: > > Okay. Then why on earth would Curtis, the Malakim of Etiquette > hand out one > > of his rites to anyone who "takes an oath to always be polite > (and apologise > > for any lapses of etiquette)"? [Superiors 1, pg. 96] > > Good point. I wrote that, but Curtis is actually an old character > from before I wrote the GMG. > > I dunno. Maybe the rules need to be revised so there's some way the > Essence can come from somewhere besides the Word-bound. But doing that > does open the way for numerous kinds of abuse. 1]I thought Tethers stored essence. 2] Way back there was some suggestion that some or all of the essence for a rite came from the symphony rather than the superior. And that similar to ethereal rites the superior also received something. Thus it might be possible that the superior only has to make up for example the difference between the essence generated by the rite and that received by the minion. [I know that gets into the potential of superiors having fractional essence] Thus in 2 the level the more the performance of the rite promotes the word the less it costs the superior. [they may also get something for performances of the rite which don't count due to the 1 per day limit] This would explain superiors preferring to give rites to people who tend to use them as part of maintaining the word. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:32:02 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Grigory Resonance/Dissonance At 10:58 -0500 3/28/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>~Heya.. Has anyone posted decent Resonance/Dissonance abilities for = >>Grigory? I'm using a Grigory in my campaign right now, but I'd like to = >>know what alternantives there may be to my own musings on what these = >>angels may have had as a resonance. Any help would be much appreciated, = >>thanks!~ The canon answer can be found in the playtest copy of GURPS In Nomine, available if you're a Pyramid subscriber. Basically, they're extra-sensitive to disturbances of the Symphony. Dissonance is ignoring demonic (or unknown) disturbances (or not doing anything about demonic ones). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:58:23 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Essence in Heaven/Hell At 1:31 PM -0500 3/28/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 23:00 -0500 3/24/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>At 3:56 PM -0600 3/24/00, David Edelstein wrote: >>>The point about the relative longevity of Heavenly souls vs. damned >>>souls is a good one. >> >>Though Heavenly souls do have the option of ascending to the >>higher Heavens... > >The question is whether this stops them from contributing Essence to the >Cause. John was suggesting that they didn't. Whether humans in the Higher Heavens contribute Essence, or whether they even _EXIST_ anymore, is CDaU. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:02:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. At 12:05 PM -0700 3/28/00, ben wrote: >> Or, hee... If you think the _player_ can be taught... >> Have Gabriel give the character the Seraph of Fire attunement, >> and then have it activate every time he wanders past a mirror >> or other semi-reflective surface, until he's punished _himself_ >> enough... > >Hey, can Gabriel *do* that? He's still a Malakite of Destiny. Oh, poo, she can't, in canon. HOWEVER! She _can_ give him the Malakite of Fire attunement, and make it functionally identical to the Seraph one (the Malakim of Fire get "special assignments", after all), or even tailor-made to trigger on _him_ (or those who do the cruelties he did)! (Or you can toss that bit of canon out the window; lots of people do.) > I like the >idea a lot, although I think the other two Gabrielites would claw my eyes >out for giving this guy an attunement. Maybe the Malakite of Fire one actually would be a cool notion -- even if it doesn't cause dissonance, it would probably be very disturbing to have your own reflection blaring "CRUEL SOB" at you all the time... The flaming hands trick, though... Well, that might well deserve an oath of "I Will Only Use The Ultracool Green Flaming Hands Trick Against The Cruel I Have Detected Via This Choir Attunement." - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:42:33 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Hey, can Gabriel *do* that? He's still a Malakite of Destiny. > > Oh, poo, she can't, in canon. Why not? If an angel is "in service" to another Archangel, that means the Archangel he's in service to is effectively his Superior, and has the right to reward or punish him. A "temporary" Superior would probably want to check with his original master before _destroying_ or casting out such a Servitor, but I don't think inflicting Discord, stripping Forces, or other punishments would raise any eyebrows. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:45:45 -0500 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. > > >Hey, can Gabriel *do* that? He's still a Malakite of Destiny. > > > > Oh, poo, she can't, in canon. > > Why not? If an angel is "in service" to another Archangel, that means > the Archangel he's in service to is effectively his Superior, and has > the right to reward or punish him. A "temporary" Superior would probably > want to check with his original master before _destroying_ or casting > out such a Servitor, but I don't think inflicting Discord, stripping > Forces, or other punishments would raise any eyebrows. Its not the 'appropriateness' of the punishment that is in issue, but that I believe (my books are at home) that only a direct superior can grant non-chior (or band) attunments. Gabriel could give a malakim of destiny the malakim of fire attunement, and Yves can give the malakim the Seraphim of Destiny attunement, but Gabriel cannot give the malakin the Seraphim of fire attunement... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:37:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. At 3:42 PM -0600 3/28/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >Hey, can Gabriel *do* that? He's still a Malakite of Destiny. >> >> Oh, poo, she can't, in canon. > >Why not? If an angel is "in service" to another Archangel, Give a Malakite of Destiny the Seraph of Fire attunement, she can't, in canon. She can only give him the Malakite of Fire attuement, suitably tuned. As the rest of the sentence that you snipped describes, thou silly. (Yes, my spouse inflicted Monty Python on me, and for some reason, "Silly People" has infiltrated my vocabulary.) You're arguing with me on the topic that I differ very little from you with, not what I said. O:> - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:02:46 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Punishment. Galen wrote: > The key to that line is "love". Regardless of how tough it is -- David > didn't check up on Maximilian for YEARS. Nor has David had anyone else > keep an eye on him. Admittedly, David's time-scale is a little > screwy, and > David tops my personal list for Superiors about to go off the deep end > (much more subtly than Khalid or Gabriel. He seems on the > letting the ends > justify the means, and becoming too passive, because everything works > itself out in time). Still, someone checking on Max when he's in his > punishment, to make sure he's still learning something, he's not > completely > broken down, and to report back to David when he's ready to be > reintegrated. Has anyone considered that perhaps Maximilian's 'Fall' in FotM wasn't entirely David's fault? I mean, Max (despite his Dissonance and Discord) still had the option of summoning David at any time. Okay, perhaps this one isn't too likely, Max would try to prove that he was strong and capable of accepting the punishment. But how about the Seneschal of the Death Valley tether (War)? David gave Max permission to occassionally work off dissonance at the tether, and despite the fact that some of Max's Discord was *very* obvious, the Seneschal never thought to report the fact to Michael? Come on, I can smell an Elohite who's judgement is crap... David possibly expected the Seneschal to report to Michael about Max's condition, then the AA of War could pass any news onto David. This possibility highlights two important aspects of David's personality. One, that he follows tough *love*, but it is still love. And two, that he is too damn stubborn to unbend a little and express that love. Of course he cared about what was happening to Max, but with the 'stupid' Seneschal not giving any feedback, David just assumed the punishment was going according to plan. No, he didn't inform the Seneschal or Michael that he wanted them to report about Max, but does he have to assume the servitors of all Words but his are incompetent? This is just one way of looking at it, but it makes the premise behind FotM more likely, IMO. Leath. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1566 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.