From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Mar 29 18:19:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01348 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:19:19 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA30430 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:15:09 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:15:09 -0600 Message-Id: <200003300015.SAA30430@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1567 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, March 29 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1567 In this digest: Re: IN> Punishment. IN> Re: Punishment RE: IN> Re: Punishment Re: IN> Punishment. IN> Dominic and FotM (was Re: Punishment) IN> Re: London Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Punishment. IN> Who should he serve re: IN> Who should he serve re: IN> Who should he serve Re: IN> Who should he serve Re: IN> Who should he serve Re: IN> Who should he serve Re: IN> Punishment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:15:43 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Give a Malakite of Destiny the Seraph of Fire attunement, she can't, > in canon. Sorry, I misunderstood what we were discussing "doing" to him. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:55:49 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: Punishment >Has anyone considered that perhaps Maximilian's >'Fall' in FotM wasn't entirely David's fault? I >mean, Max (despite his Dissonance and Discord) still >had the option of summoning David at any time. Okay, >perhaps this one isn't too likely, Max would try to >prove that he was strong and capable of accepting the >punishment. But how about the Seneschal of the Death >Valley tether (War)? David gave Max permission to >occassionally work off dissonance at the tether, and >despite the fact that some of Max's Discord >was *very* obvious, the Seneschal never thought to >report the fact to Michael? Come on, I can smell an >Elohite who's judgement is crap... David >possibly expected the Seneschal to report to Michael >about Max's condition, then the AA of War could pass >any news onto David. >This possibility highlights two important aspects of >David's personality. One, that he >follows tough *love*, but it is still love. And two, >that he is too damn stubborn to unbend a little and >express that love. Of course he cared about >what was happening to Max, but with the 'stupid' >Seneschal not giving any feedback, David just assumed >the punishment was going according to plan. >No, he didn't inform the Seneschal or Michael that he >wanted them to report about Max, but does he have to >assume the servitors of all Words but his are >incompetent? >This is just one way of looking at it, but it makes >the premise behind FotM >more likely, IMO. >Leath. Cognent point, but it reminds me of the old Star Trek reason why everybody fell out of their seats when they got hit by a phaser or something. Sure, you could rationalize about the ship's intertal fields being temporarily overloaded or other doubletalk, but the real reason was that it looked cool. This was also why nobody had seat belts, BTW. Anyway, the real reason (IMHO) why David acted like such a friggin' schmuckboy in FotM was because otherwise Max would never have gotten so bad that his Fall would have seemed plausable. The last time I checked, angels aren't big into torture. (Dependent on campaign, naturally, but I assume that published materials will try to be as broadbased as possible). The AA of Stone would certainly have come up with such a punishment, sure: but he also would have instituted regular checkups, using either his own Servitors or those of Judgement. Also, again IMHO, Dominic's reaction to all of this in the Revelations Cycle was seriously underplayed. Dominic would have f***ing _freaked_. What David did came perilously to perverting Dominic's Word*. I had a point: oh, yeah. The central premise of FotM was nice, but it warped at least one Superior's motivations to unacceptable levels. Again again, IMHO. :) Morgan Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Unsolicited Opinions *Of course, my interpetation of Dominic is slightly more positive than others, as anything I've done in my Oops cycle (SHAMELESS PLUG! SHAMELESS PLUG!) would make obvious. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:29:30 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Re: Punishment Maurice wrote: > Anyway, the real reason (IMHO) why David acted like > such a friggin' schmuckboy in FotM was because > otherwise Max would never have gotten so bad that his > Fall would have seemed plausable. Agreed. Note that I'm not trying to offer reasons why the adventure 'works', I'm offering reasons how the logic behind it may be 'fixed' if people want to run it. > Also, again IMHO, Dominic's reaction to all of this in > the Revelations Cycle was seriously underplayed. > Dominic would have f***ing _freaked_. What David did > came perilously to perverting Dominic's Word*. Dominic's reaction to LA is seriously screwed up and has (IMO) crossed the line between 'stretching things to make a story work' and 'perverting things to make the story kinda work'. I mean, c'mon, half a dozen or so angels in the worst conditions imaginable (for a long-term Corporeal assignment) and Judgement never checks on them because "LA belongs to demons"???? IMO, Dominic would have a Triad regularly visiting the angels with orders to keep quiet, check all the angels (from a distance if necessary, Ofanim, Malakim and Elohim of Judgement don't have to get too close to use their attunements) and get out. If any of them are carrying large amounts of Dissonance or Discord, inform Dominic and then inform the angel's Archangel. How or why they got it is irrelevant under these conditions, that can be sorted out when their boss calls them home for a quick chat. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:43:40 CST From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. I like a lot of the suggestions, but the key thing I'm considering here is that the player is my friend, and I'd like a punishment that both makes sense with the game and keeps the game fun for him. I rather like the one where he has to babysit another angel who has the same flaws he has... and having him tried by Fire and, after walking out of the volcano, have a triad waiting for him. > >Ben Pass him off to Novalis. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketing ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 2000 05:51:09 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: IN> Dominic and FotM (was Re: Punishment) On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:55:49 -0800 (PST) Maurice Lane wrote: >*Of course, my interpetation of Dominic is slightly >more positive than others, as anything I've done in my >Oops cycle (SHAMELESS PLUG! SHAMELESS PLUG!) would >make obvious. :) it's still on topic, so i'm asking publicly, how does Dominic behave in your Oops cycle? is he more the Archangel of Justice or simply more merciful in the application of his Word? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:42:38 +0300 (EET DST) From: Mervi H{m{l{inen Subject: IN> Re: London Thank you very much to everybody who answered my London -question. I will center the adventures on Ealing or Brent. The group has an Ofanite taxi-driver, anyway. It's surprising how many places there are to potential Tethers of Lust or Media. But as an old city, London has several of both, I'm sure.:) The old parts of the subway will make a startling appearance IMC. The Tar Pit will be there as well as maybe a Baalite camp or something. As for Death Valley... Michael has HMS Belfast. The cannons are compleatly operational. Heh. Mervi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:15:06 -0700 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. Thanks for all the wonderful ideas. I'm merging them together, so please, tell me if this is fair, fun, and appropriate: The Malakite has obviously lost his role and vessel. If it's not outright destroyed, Yves will have no choice but to (sadly) remove it himself or hand it to another angel to use in prison. Gabriel, when she appears to reward her servitors for a job well done, will naturally be furious with the Malakite for going over her halo. She'll demand two new vows out of him, and they better be good. Or else. The Malakite will then be brought before a trial by a Triad of the Inquisition. Soldekai knows that Fire doesn't want the attentions of Dominic, so he will happily distance himself from the trial and let the Triad do its thing. Of course, the party will be present, as well as several prominent Malakim, all to speak for or against the Malakite. The Triad does want to be fair. Janus, the Archangel of the Wind, will stop by to watch. At this point, the Triad will pass judgement. It will probably be bad, it will probably scare the player to death, and Janus will overrule them. I figure a player this unpredictable and havoc-causing is better suited to serve Janus -- if his actions can be channeled into more healthy avenues -- than Yves. Janus will make him an offer, and it'll be up to the player to say yes or no. Yves' (parting?) lesson to his servitor will be assigning an Ofanite to him. A 9-force, young angel with a penchant for doing all the foolish things the Malakite liked to do. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:38:04 -0500 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. > Return-Path: ben@zianet.com > At this point, the Triad will pass judgement. It will probably be bad, it > will probably scare the player to death, and Janus will overrule them. I > figure a player this unpredictable and havoc-causing is better suited to > serve Janus -- if his actions can be channeled into more healthy avenues -- > than Yves. Janus will make him an offer, and it'll be up to the player to > say yes or no. I'm a little iffy on Janus overruling the triad. Unless you really want Dominic and Janus to get even closer to coming to blows. Another method might be having Janus approach him before (or during) and make him the offer, and based on how well he responds (even if he says no) having Janus offer his support. Otherwise, it sound fair and appropriate for the character. > Yves' (parting?) lesson to his servitor will be assigning an Ofanite to him. > A 9-force, young angel with a penchant for doing all the foolish things the > Malakite liked to do. You might want a proto-Ofanite reliever of 7 or 8 forces (or if your world has lowered powered full fledged angels, a force 7 or 8 version of them), instead of full force 9. (or an ofanite that lost a force along the way doing those foolish things, but never learned any better). Still, sounds good. I approve, for whatever that is worth. =) - -- Galen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:22:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. Ben: Sounds like a good merger, worth at least one or two engrossing sessions of play. Galen G. Silversmith wrote: > I'm a little iffy on Janus overruling the triad. Unless you > really want Dominic and Janus to get even closer to coming to > blows. Aw, I'd go for it. Sounds exactly like Janus, who surely can't show up for Triad trials often enough for this to be a systematic problem to Dominic. Dominic would probably utter a thunderous denouncement at the next meeting of the Seraphim Council, get a raspberry from Janus in return, and Yves would move they go on to the next agenda item. Ben could always throw in some background rumor later, about some Windies and Judgies getting into some back-alley scuffles on behalf of their masters, over Janus's "Malakite-rustling"... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:54:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. At 12:38 PM -0500 3/29/00, Galen G. Silversmith wrote: >> Return-Path: ben@zianet.com > >> At this point, the Triad will pass judgement. It will probably be bad, it >> will probably scare the player to death, and Janus will overrule them. I >> figure a player this unpredictable and havoc-causing is better suited to >> serve Janus -- if his actions can be channeled into more healthy avenues -- >> than Yves. Janus will make him an offer, and it'll be up to the player to >> say yes or no. > >I'm a little iffy on Janus overruling the triad. Unless you really want >Dominic and Janus to get even closer to coming to blows. An Archangel might be able to get the sentence suspended somehow -- or at least bump it up to the "Supreme Court" level of Judgment. (Appeals court!) One of the things the triad might charge the Malakite with could be "Conduct that does not serve the Word of your Superior" -- and this could be the carrot that Janus holds: Grand Havoc isn't necessarily Fire or Destiny, but it _is_ characteristic of the Wind. If the character were serving the Wind, then Janus could get the charges dropped, or severely reduced... (And what behind-closed-doors dealings happen between Dominic and Janus and probably Yves... Well, just drop a few hints that maybe Janus' intervention had some political cost. (Either that, or they had a hand of poker and the Malakite was in the pot...)) There's also the really twisted path of having the triad prepped to pass a nasty judgment which they _know_ is going to be over-ruled by Janus (because it was set up that way ahead of time), and the real decision is going to be something lesser -- if he goes to the Wind's service. (This is a bit hinkier to arrange if it's all in Heaven where one can't lie -- but probably possible. "We find you guilty of X. The sentence is Y." Janus: "Objection! I want him!" Triad: "Does the accused want to go to the Wind? Yes? Okay, objection sustained.") - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, aka Io-chan, aka the little reliever. (Kind of hard to type with her on my lap!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:38:50 +0100 From: Dave Taylor Subject: IN> Who should he serve Hi, I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw it open to the floor... Dave, - -- Long is the way, and hard, that out of Hell leads up to light - John Milton - Paradise Lost ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:40:25 EST From: Galen Silversmith Subject: re: IN> Who should he serve > I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of > Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? > I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw it > open to the floor... *blink* You're choosing between Dark humor, fire, and death for something that is, IMO, fairly hard core technology? Vapula would be my vote... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:40:25 EST From: Galen Silversmith Subject: re: IN> Who should he serve > I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of > Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? > I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw it > open to the floor... *blink* You're choosing between Dark humor, fire, and death for something that is, IMO, fairly hard core technology? Vapula would be my vote... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:43:11 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve At 12:38 AM +0100 3/29/00, Dave Taylor wrote: >Hi, > >I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of >Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? > >I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw it >open to the floor... Personally? I'd say Vapula, despite his having no Calabim. Said Calabite may have been serving Belial, but his Word fits Technology entirely too well to not have some connection. (Though he'd never be allowed anywhere near Vapula's labs....) - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:51:20 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve At 18:38 -0500 3/28/00, Dave Taylor wrote: >I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of >Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? > >I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw it >open to the floor... Actually, I'd put him under Vapula, myself. Of the ones you mentioned, I wouldn't use Kobal -- mechanical failures *usually* aren't funny. Either Belial ("crash and burn!") or Saminga ("major casualties") would also work. However, I'd expect Belial to be mostly interested in the sorts of failures that resulted in explosions or fires -- a collapsing bridge wouldn't interest him much. Ditto Saminga, if the failure doesn't result in casualties. Vapula, however, is *always* interested in technology, both when it works and when it fails. Another DP who might also work is Beleth ("instill fear of techological failures"). There's really no one right answer to this -- it depends on how you want the Word slanted. A demon with that Word might serve any of the above, and empahsize the appropriate aspects of it. A Vapulan would probably experiment with causing such failures and collecting information on how humans respond to the results. A Samingan would concentrate on failures that maximized the death toll, while a Fire Servitor would tend to favor vehicular failures and fuel tank fires and explosions. A Nightmares demon would work on causing problems that would get widespread media coverage, with especially gruesome visual appeal. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:30:46 CST From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve My personal opinion would be Vapula. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketing ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:14:33 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > There's also the really twisted path of having the triad prepped to > pass a nasty judgment which they _know_ is going to be over-ruled by > Janus (because it was set up that way ahead of time), and the real > decision is going to be something lesser -- if he goes to the Wind's > service. (This is a bit hinkier to arrange if it's all in Heaven > where one can't lie -- but probably possible. "We find you guilty of > X. The sentence is Y." Janus: "Objection! I want him!" Triad: "Does > the accused want to go to the Wind? Yes? Okay, objection sustained.") Oooooooh! Like! - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1567 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.