From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 31 03:37:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA19009 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:37:01 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id DAA12961 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:34:12 -0600 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:34:12 -0600 Message-Id: <200003310934.DAA12961@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1568 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 31 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1568 In this digest: Re: IN> Who should he serve Re: IN> Who should he serve Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) IN> Re: Punishment IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) Re: IN> Who should he serve re: IN> Who should he serve IN> Hubris revisted (again, and again, and again...) IN> Dominic as Balseraph IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... RE: IN> Dominic as Balseraph Re: IN> Who should he serve Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) Re: IN> Who should he serve Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) Re: IN> Punishment. Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) Re: IN> Who should he serve Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) Re: IN> Punishment. Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Re: IN> Who should he serve Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:03:17 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Personally? I'd say Vapula, despite his having no Calabim. Said > Calabite may have been serving Belial, but his Word fits Technology > entirely too well to not have some connection. (Though he'd never be > allowed anywhere near Vapula's labs....) Canonically, there are no Calabim serving Vapula. So the Demon of Catostrophic Mechanical Failure would have to serve someone else. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:32:05 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve At 7:03 PM -0600 3/29/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > Personally? I'd say Vapula, despite his having no Calabim. Said > > Calabite may have been serving Belial, but his Word fits Technology > > entirely too well to not have some connection. (Though he'd never be > > allowed anywhere near Vapula's labs....) > >Canonically, there are no Calabim serving Vapula. So the Demon of >Catostrophic Mechanical Failure would have to serve someone else. Thus the "despite his having no Calabim" part of the above. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:22:38 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) Date: 29 Mar 2000 05:51:09 -0000From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: IN> Dominic and FotM (was Re: Punishment) On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:55:49 -0800 (PST) Maurice Lane wrote: >*Of course, my interpetation of Dominic is slightly >more positive than others, as anything I've done in my >Oops cycle (SHAMELESS PLUG! SHAMELESS PLUG!) would>make obvious. :) it's still on topic, so i'm asking publicly, how does Dominic behave in your Oops cycle? is he more the Archangel of Justice or simply more merciful in the application of his Word? Neither, actually. Judgement doesn't need to be a heavy-handed Word: it is in canon because Dominic's has qute a bit of healthy paranoia about Falling. After all, he watched as 1/3 of his friends, comrades (and possibly a lover? We'll never know.) voluntarily chose to turn their collective backs on God ... and he never, ever saw it coming. He's never been the same since. He doesn't dare. But that doesn't mean that he likes what he's become. I don't personally subscribe to the "Dominic as Balseraph" interpetation (although it's certainly a legitimate variation for some campaigns), so I assumed that he would like to relax a little. Not much, just a little. (The following is based on my emphatically NON-CANON personal writings, available at: http://www.familyshoebox.com/family/Oops In no way am I suggesting that the below scenario would be compatible with a canonical Dominic. I'm only bringing this up because someone asked. :) ) Giving him three new Redeemed Archangels would give him that opportunity. For yet-to-be-disclosed reasons, all three achieved Superior status through (apparently) God's will, not that of the Seraphim Council, and they have all chosen to not shield themselves from Dominic's scrutiny. They all know how good a job he's doing (as only a former enemy would), and they trust his Judgement implicitly. As a Seraph, he can read the Truth of their trust. He'd never admit it, no doubt, but Dominic would enjoy that trust. He might start believing that the War - and his role in it - was finally starting to make a turn for the better. And he might even begin the hard road of forgiving himself for his past "mistake"*. Oddly enough, the other AA that would have similar attitudes about this would be Michael (the other biggo Seraphim). The novelty of those two agreeing on anything was too good to pass up... :) Anyway, hope that answers your question. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Biting Off More Than You Can Chew *Unlike some of the posters I've seen (nobody here, of course), I don't dislike Dominic as written. I feel pity for him, instead. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:26:38 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: Punishment > > Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:29:30 +1000 > From: "Leath Sheales" > > Subject: RE: IN> Re: Punishment > > Maurice wrote: > > > Anyway, the real reason (IMHO) why David acted > like > > such a friggin' schmuckboy in FotM was because > > otherwise Max would never have gotten so bad that > his > > Fall would have seemed plausable. > > Agreed. Note that I'm not trying to offer reasons > why the adventure > 'works', I'm offering reasons how the logic behind > it may be 'fixed' if > people want to run it. > Of course. Sorry: didn't mean to vent all over you. That scenario drove me a little nuts. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Voluminous Digressions From the Point __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:14:50 -0800 From: "Matthew W." Subject: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) Kobal Software is a notorious new artifact which Kobal introduced to Earth only a few years ago, with the real start of the computer revolution. Even more recently, he began personally producing far more powerful versions of the artifact which were more effective on angels, and in some rumors Archangels. Kobal Software can exist in the form of any type of video game, though the preferred form is one that is played in the home, not an arcade form. It can be made out of any mundane (but well-written) computer game, but sometimes Kobal enjoys writing his own farsical little programs, such as SimHeaven and Might and Malakim. It is rumored that if Kobal himself has written a program, any CD or game catridge that is written with the program becomes Kobal Software. KoS (as this artifact is known by hipper servitors of Technology) operates under modified versions of the Ethereal Song of Attraction and the Celestial Song of Charm. Once KoS is installed, it refuses to run without the CD in the computer system (on console game systems, it merely requires the catridge). There is no way of "ripping" KoS, which is a great blessing to angels. Downloadable artifacts of this nature would be insidious to the extreme. KoS takes the form of an enjoyable and well-designed computer game, usually a roleplaying or strategy one. However, after playing for any long amount of time, the game's dark nature becomes apparent (to everyone except the user). In order to stop playing, with the exception of short breaks for sustenance and hygiene, the user must make a Will roll minus the number of hours he has played. Rolls to stop for sleep (and only for sleep), are at a +4. To make it even worse, anyone who plays the game for six hours or more (straight or otherwise), must make an unmodified Will roll. If they fail, they gain Need (Play "Game Title")/1. Every successive six hours, another Will roll must be made, with cumulative Needs building up, until the Need is it at 6. Even more powerful versions are rumored to exist (such as Kobal's personal collection, which puts you at a -10 to your Will roll for every hour that you've played it), and even ones which could entrance Superiors. KoS's effects on a mortal's life can be quite depraved, with the victim working (or stealing) just enough to pay for a minimum of food and electricity, living in a dirty rat-ridden department, always trying to defeat that very last level. Cost (for mundane KoS) : 40 pts. = Mathus = = Demon of Rants = = ArchRival of Timothy = ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:41:07 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) I *like* it. Evil! Evil! The Discord seems a bit much, though. And what happens when you've played every last level? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:25:56 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Douglas Muir wrote: > The Discord seems a bit much, though. And what happens when you've played > every last level? Well, the humans *definitely* get the disadvantages. Once you've defeated every last level, you start writing your own mods, of course. And downloading other people's. (Cue the standard Eli-and-Kobal-in-a-coffee-shop scene) On an unrelated note... Is Kobal responsible for COBOL? I remain, Michael Martin "It is commonly the case with technologoes that you can get the best insight about how they work by watching them fail." -- Neal Stephenson, "In the Beginning... Was the Command Line" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:30:10 -0600 From: Jonathan B Lotzer Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve Reading over a couple of this posts on this thread...I have to wonder, is this question being asked wrong? Does the demon have to be a Calabite? It seems more reasonable to ask that question rather than trying to fit the character under a Prince that would have a harder time to encompass the word. Dave Taylor wrote: > Hi, > > I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of > Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? > > I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw it > open to the floor... > > Dave, > > -- > Long is the way, and hard, that out of Hell leads up to light > - John Milton - Paradise Lost ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 2000 06:30:01 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: re: IN> Who should he serve On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:40:25 EST Galen Silversmith wrote: >> I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of >> Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? > >> I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw it >> open to the floor... >*blink* You're choosing between Dark humor, fire, and death for something >that is, IMO, fairly hard core technology? > >Vapula would be my vote... ...except that Vapula doesn't allow Calabim in his service. little problems like that create threads like this . oh, and for the record, my vote is Dark Humor: gremlins are a catagory overlapped by both Dark Humor and Technology, and i think Kobal would take advantage of using a Calabite to infringe on the Technological One's Word. it would strike him as ironic to be sure. Death seems too tangential to "Catastrophic Mechanical Failure," and IMC, Saminga is even moreso a dullard the main book paints him as. -=|horsefly|=- "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:31:24 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Hubris revisted (again, and again, and again...) For all of you that might be interested, I've posted yet again* to my little Oops Cycle, at http://www.familyshoebox.com/family/Oops This little bit is about Grey Circles and Tolerated Pantheons, and while it's Heretical, I think you all might actually be able to use some of it in your campaigns as is. Maybe. :) As always, questions, comments and rasberries are welcome. Enjoy! Morgan Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Indecision ... or maybe Uncertainty *If these notifications get tedious, for God's sake tell me. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:34:55 -0600 From: Matt Lyon Subject: IN> Dominic as Balseraph I've heard some mention of the theory that Dominic is actually a Balseraph. I'd be interested in hearing details about this (how a Balseraph hangs out in Heaven, for one) from anyone who holds this particular view. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:48:08 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... It's canon that the first generation of Malakim were formed from other angels at the time of the Fall. It's also canon that at least one Mal (David) retains some faint traces of his former, Cherubic, nature. My question, then. Is Dave an aberration, or do other senior Malakim still partake -- in some limited way -- of the natures of their former Choirs? I can think of a lot of different ways this might play out. A Seraph-turned-Mal might have an oath not to lie... or he might just have a touch of cool hauteur. An Ofanite-Mal might have an oath "not to rest in pursuit of an enemy". Or he might just be slightly twitchy. Oh, and there'd be a few ex-Grigori Malakim, surely. That would be interesting. Thoughts? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:24:12 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Douglas Muir wrote: > > Oh, and there'd be a few ex-Grigori Malakim, surely. That would be > interesting. > > Thoughts? Sorry to disappoint you, but not in cannon. The grig were created post-fall as a sort of early warning system for when the damned eventually escaped hell. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:19:50 -0800 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> Dominic as Balseraph > I've heard some mention of the theory that Dominic is actually a > Balseraph. I'd be interested in hearing details about this (how a > Balseraph hangs out in Heaven, for one) from anyone who holds this > particular view. I think it may be less a theory and more a running gag... A version runs like this. Dominic falls, is granted the Balseraph of Kronos attunement, and is given a special artifact cloak which conceals his celestial nature, probably crafted out of Kronos' forces. After all, we never see Dominic w/o his cloak on, and both Balseraphs and Seraphim have multiple eyes... - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:35:06 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve >From: David Edelstein > > >Canonically, there are no Calabim serving Vapula. So the Demon of >Catostrophic Mechanical Failure would have to serve someone else. > Or else not be a Calabite. OTOH, if it was explosive mechanical failure, it might be in service to Belial. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:04:12 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) > The following is based on my emphatically NON-CANON personal writings Is it just me, or are we all becoming a bit paranoid about the canon/non-canon stuff?!? I know I'm pretty new to this list, but couldn't we relax a bit??? I mean not push the THIS-IS-NOT-CANON button as soon as somebody says "I have an idea"... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:58:09 +1000 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve Dave Taylor wrote: > I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of > Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? > > I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw it > open to the floor... Well many have suggested Vapula, but I reccomend Kobal, cos Kobalites and their crazy antics make games fun, fun, fun and with any luck funny as well. However, biases aside, I think that it is also very important to take into consideration the tone of your game... If it were a darker game, then I would probably suggest Belial, and have him be friendly with Nybbis' lot. If it were a lighter game then Kobal all the way!!! Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:34:36 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) > > Is it just me, or are we all becoming a bit paranoid about the canon/non-canon > stuff?!? > I know I'm pretty new to this list, but couldn't we relax a bit??? I mean not > push the THIS-IS-NOT-CANON button as soon as somebody says "I have an idea"... > I haven't been around long, either, but this list has been paranoid about that issue since I started lurking here. Unfortunately, I don't see much of a way around it. There are a number of people who have been cyber-mugged on this list for not being clear about which version they were posting - so a huge disclaimer that someone's idea is Not Canon seems to be the safest way to post thoughts and ideas without putting on the good ol' asbestos suit. FWIW, I agree - I wish we didn't have to be so paranoid about it... Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:19:40 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. Quoth Elizabeth McCoy on 3/29/00 3:54 PM: > At 12:38 PM -0500 3/29/00, Galen G. Silversmith wrote: >>> Return-Path: ben@zianet.com >> >>> At this point, the Triad will pass judgement. It will probably be bad, it >>> will probably scare the player to death, and Janus will overrule them. I >>> figure a player this unpredictable and havoc-causing is better suited to >>> serve Janus -- if his actions can be channeled into more healthy avenues -- >>> than Yves. Janus will make him an offer, and it'll be up to the player to >>> say yes or no. > There's also the really twisted path of having the triad prepped to > pass a nasty judgment which they _know_ is going to be over-ruled by > Janus (because it was set up that way ahead of time), and the real > decision is going to be something lesser -- if he goes to the Wind's > service. (This is a bit hinkier to arrange if it's all in Heaven > where one can't lie -- but probably possible. "We find you guilty of > X. The sentence is Y." Janus: "Objection! I want him!" Triad: "Does > the accused want to go to the Wind? Yes? Okay, objection sustained.") I see *two* problems along this twisted path. a) Elizabeth pointed out the first one: that in Heaven, some things just do not go over at all well, including lying. Moreover, Dominic's hierarchy would most likely have a Seraph reading the sentencing. I think your Malakite would get suspicious when, during the reading of that sentencing, the Seraph reading the judgement began turning *brown*. b) A point that seems almost to have been overlooked: It's Dissonant for servitors of Dominic to impose punishments greater than the crimes committed. That means it's simply not in Dominic's *nature* to impose anything exceptionally nasty in the hopes that it'll be overturned (because, naturally, it might NOT be). Here's something to consider, if he's really hosed things up: after committing a number of atrocities in the name of Heaven (including priming an *infernal* tether), Dominic may well decide that yes, this one is a basket case and radical treatment is required, in which case the punishment could read as "his choice: 1) seek the guidance of a more apporpriate superior, or 2) get used to life as an indeterminate number of 3-force relievers." Now, on the subject of more appropriate Superiors... either he could be put under someone who best befits his nature as a random engine of destruction (i.e. Janus, although this morning I had the idea for the Malakite of Eli, Angel of Creative Mayhem and I'm calling DIBS, damnit!), ...or to satisfy that inner Habballah in you, stick him under a superior more likely to *transform* his nature, to make him more usable to the cause of Heaven: Stick him under *David*. (No, THAT David, not...) - --David http://home.bluecrab.org/~dwood "CORRECTION: 'Current' regrets describing the offices of NPR Ventures as 'plush' in the March 25 issue. Although there is a couch in the reception area that could be described as plush, on closer examination the offices proved to be just ordinary." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:02:41 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) In a message dated 03/30/2000 1:04:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, cossonl@logica.com writes: > > The following is based on my emphatically NON-CANON personal writings > > Is it just me, or are we all becoming a bit paranoid about the canon/non- > canon > stuff?!? > I know I'm pretty new to this list, but couldn't we relax a bit??? I mean > not > push the THIS-IS-NOT-CANON button as soon as somebody says "I have an idea".. > . > > > Laurent. It becomes more tricky when a line editor, an author or the (official) net-rep start 'noodling' to the list. John K(arakash? I'm uncertain of the spelling) and Elizabeth McCoy are both 'official'. Maya (G. Cogman), Walter Milliken, David Edelstein, and Earl Wajenberg (appologies for any misspelled names!) are all contributing authors to the line. I'm sure there are others, but this is just a quick list. Fortunately, or un-, the rest of us have picked up the habit of stressing whether something is canonical or not. It's mostly stylistic, I suppose. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:16:18 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Douglas Muir wrote: > My question, then. Is Dave an aberration, or do other senior Malakim still> partake -- in some limited way -- of the natures of their former Choirs? It's always been my opinion that they do. Hence Uriel, who was a Seraph before he became a Malakite, was a fanatic for Purity and unable to accept any shades of grade in part because he still saw the universe as being divided into the Truth, and Not The Truth. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:20:13 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) Laurent wrote: > Is it just me, or are we all becoming a bit paranoid about the canon/non-canon> stuff?!? > I know I'm pretty new to this list, but couldn't we relax a bit??? I mean not> push the THIS-IS-NOT-CANON button as soon as somebody says "I have an idea"... While some people are a bit too paranoid about canon vs. non-canon, there are a couple reasons for it. One is that when someone posts "Things work like so," when they are actually posting how things work in their campaign or in their opinion, it confuses other players who think they are talking about how it works in canon, and then they go flipping through the rulebooks trying to find where it says that. Two is that when one of the IN authors -- and especially the Line Editor - -- posts something about IN, people have been known to go apeshit over whether or not this represented an official change in the universe, unless the author/LE was very explicit in the post about whether or not the post was canon. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:19:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) I think the whole custom of clearly labeling canon and non-canon arose because of people seeking clarification. The cycle rose something like this: Poster A points out a (real or apparent) hole in the rules. Poster B offers a way of filling the hole. Someone says, of the proposed fix, "You can't do that, because it says on page X that..." - - OR - Someone says, of the proposed fix, "I don't like that. Do I *have* to do it that way?" In the either case, poster B then has to back-track and say, "Yeah, I know (or no, I didn't), but that's what I do in my game," or they argue about what the rules say and mean, then appeal to Beth or David or someone. Clearly labeling as "canon" or "non-canon" helps reduce the number of such time-wasting exchanges. A similar cycle goes like this: Poster A say, "Hey, wouldn't it be neat if (Dom is a Balseraph) / (Laurence is Eli and Lilith's love-child) / (God is a short-order cook) / whatever." Poster B says, "Oh, great! That screws up my whole campaign!" Poster A or the line editor or someone has to reassure, "That's not canon, just Poster A's idea." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:22:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve I recommend that the Demon of Catastrophic Mechanical Failure serve Vapula and be a Shedite, since this Word is a fairly spectacular instance of "corruption" in the technological realm, and for that matter often depends on the shortcomings of the designers, which can have been engineered by the Shedite. If he must be a Calabite, I'd give him to Kronos, since, if a mechanical failure is truely catastrophic, it should severely de-rail some people's lives. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:51:10 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: Personal view (Was: IN> Dominic and FotM) > Is it just me, or are we all becoming a bit paranoid about the canon/non-canon > stuff?!? Becoming? It's a little late for becoming. Emily K. Dresner -- Writer, Guitarist, Hacker, Freak Pyramid Columnist, "Women in Gaming" -- http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/ Freelancer, In Nomine -- http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/ The coffee is not cruel. It is merely coffee. It is still steaming, however. - Fiat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:52:12 EST From: "Angela Smythe" Subject: Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) > > The Discord seems a bit much, though. And what happens when you've >played > > every last level? > >Well, the humans *definitely* get the disadvantages. > >Once you've defeated every last level, you start writing your own mods, of >course. And downloading other people's. > Don't forget the quick change of Need/ to play to Need/ buy the sequel. Angela ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:01:08 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) - --On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 9:52 AM +0000 Angela Smythe wrote: >> > Don't forget the quick change of Need/ to play to Need/ buy the > sequel. > Do I really *need* to get Final Fantasy 9...? (*clatter* 1, 1, 1 ) Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:40:48 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Punishment. David Wood wrote: > I see *two* problems along this twisted path. > > a) Elizabeth pointed out the first one: that in Heaven, some things just do > not go over at all well, including lying. Moreover, Dominic's hierarchy > would most likely have a Seraph reading the sentencing. I think your > Malakite would get suspicious when, during the reading of that sentencing, > the Seraph reading the judgement began turning *brown*. It's NOT a lie. It's a legitimate sentence that Will Be carried out... unless someone intervenes and the intervention is accepted. > > b) A point that seems almost to have been overlooked: It's Dissonant for > servitors of Dominic to impose punishments greater than the crimes > committed. That means it's simply not in Dominic's *nature* to impose > anything exceptionally nasty in the hopes that it'll be overturned (because, > naturally, it might NOT be). For every crime, there is a range of punishments based on the judgement of the Jugementer on the scene. This is explicitly stated in the new expanded writeup of Dominic. The sentence at the trial can be at the extreme high end. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:09:49 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Kobal Software (An Artifact) From: "Marc Bowden" > Do I really *need* to get Final Fantasy 9...? (*clatter* 1, 1, 1 ) Oh yeah, you think God doesn't play Final Fantasy? I'll guarantee you the series is an angelic intrusion onto Vapula-originated video game systems. People living up to their full potentials -- "love, courage and friendship" (as Laguna puts it) carrying the day. Although, I think there's a case to be made for Zell having Need/ hot dogs from the cafeteria. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:37:47 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... I can see Oaths relating to former nature quite easily. after so long a time being a creature with a certain nature, it's hard to relinquish that nature. as for the Grigori-Malakim, there aren't any. The Grigs were created _after_ the fall and no angel has changed since that one occurrence. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:10:58 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... Okay, the Grigs were created post-Fall, so no Grigori-Malakim. Now what about oaths for Mals from the other Choirs? One could just turn the former Choir's dissonance conditions into an oath ("never harm a human")... this would be pretty simple for all of them, except maybe the Kyrios. But I think it would be more interesting and fun to come up with oaths that _play off of_ the Mal's former nature without mimicking it. Thoughts? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:55:01 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... I certainly hope a Malakim wouldn't take the Oath "Never harm a human." What happens when the Malakim meets an evil human? or better yet, a Hellsworn or Sorcerer that cannot be redeemed? - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF - ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Muir To: Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 11:10 AM Subject: Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... > > Okay, the Grigs were created post-Fall, so no Grigori-Malakim. > > Now what about oaths for Mals from the other Choirs? One could just turn > the former Choir's dissonance conditions into an oath ("never harm a > human")... this would be pretty simple for all of them, except maybe the > Kyrios. But I think it would be more interesting and fun to come up with > oaths that _play off of_ the Mal's former nature without mimicking it. > > Thoughts? > > > > Doug M. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:00:03 -0700 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... > Kyrios. But I think it would be more interesting and fun to come up with > oaths that _play off of_ the Mal's former nature without mimicking it. Mind job time. Would a Malakite who was previously a Kyriotate have sympathy for Shedim? He, too, has lost his inkling for multiplicity. How many angry Mercurians became Malakim instead of falling? After all, as a Malakite, they can channel their anger about humanity against the Adversary who made it all an issue in the first place. As a Mercurian or Impudite, they still can't touch 'em. How many enraged Elohim became Malakim instead of spiralling down into Hell? Check this out. In the battle of Michael's angels versus Lucifer's angels, no-one had yet Fallen. Lucifer was a Seraph, and probably had no dissonance due to his ability to tell the lie as a truth. His armies were also all angels. It was impossible, until Michael cast Lucifer out, for an angel to Fall. The armies of God were undoubtedly generating dissonance up the wazzoo in their denial and their rage. If you were an omniscient being, you'd see the writing on the wall: either your army gets a ton of crippling Discord and is beaten by its weakness, or the dissonance they're accumulating would have caused a second, massive Fall after Lucifer fell into Hell. God's way of preventing a disaster? Channel that anger and dissonance into becoming Malakim, and protect his loyal servants. The Cherubim, born to protect, had to destroy. The Elohim, born to be objective and rational, raged against the traitors The peaceful Mercurians, probably horrified at the prospect of attacking angels, found a way out. The many-faceted Kyriotates, finally shown the one true set of perspectives, shut themselves away from it. The speedy and impulsive Ofanim used their powers to destroy, and would have become the first Calabim... had not God intervened. Can you imagine invoking your resonance on the lie that is the Rebellion? There were Seraphim who couldn't handle it, and denied it. I'm not saying Malakim are demons, but I am suggesting that the sort of fury it takes to become one is not becoming to any of the choirs, and each of the angels -- from Uriel all the way down to the littlest Malakite -- would have Fallen at the end of the War in Heaven had they not become Malakim. > Doug M. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:01:40 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Who should he serve > >I want to put a word-bound demon into my campaign, the Calabite demon of > >Catastrophic Mechanical Failure. My problem is which DP he should serve? > > > >I can't decide between Kobal, Belial or Saminga, so I thought I'd throw >it > >open to the floor... > >Actually, I'd put him under Vapula, myself. Of the ones you mentioned, >I wouldn't use Kobal -- mechanical failures *usually* aren't funny. NOT funny??!!! The Hindenberg (sp?) NOT Funny to a demon of Dark Humor??!!! Duuuuude!!! A rollercoaster leaping the rails NOT funny???!!!! Did you see the expressions on their faces?! Terror, man! The suffering of humankind due to their failure of their own creations, now THAT'S dark humor. (Especially in that whole God creates Man, Man fails => Man creates Machines, Machine fails, sense.) I'd say Kobal, man. I mean, look at the Word, it has the "catastrophic" in it!!! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "As much money and life as you could want! The two things most human beings would choose above all - the trouble is, humans do have a knack of choosing precisely those things that are worst for them." - Professor Dumbledore Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone by J. K. Rowling ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:34:03 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> The Virtue formerly known as... <<< One could just turn the former Choir's dissonance conditions into an oath ("never harm a human")... (Doug M.) >>> I'm not sure wether or not a Malakite gets dissonance from acting against one of his oaths. I'd say so. Anybody with a canon answer? If yes, isn't that a big disadvantage for the choir? Now if a Malakite takes his old dissonance condition as an oath, wouldn't it make things even worst? Laurent. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1568 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.