From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 4 17:00:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA31462 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:00:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA05201 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:56:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:56:53 -0500 Message-Id: <200004042156.QAA05201@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1573 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 4 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1573 In this digest: Re: IN> Newbie! IN> Children of Fire Re: IN> Children of Fire Re: IN> Children of Fire Re: IN> Newbie! Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) RE: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like th at) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re:IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 Re: Sorcery and Forces (was Re: IN> Newbie!) IN> INS/MV AA/DPs (Was Re: IN> Real weird speculation) IN> First family RE: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 IN> Eve as Archangel Re: Sorcery and Forces (was Re: IN> Newbie!) Re: IN> Superiors Stripping Attunements and Distinctions. Re: IN> Superiors Stripping Attunements and Distinctions. Re: IN> INS/MV AA/DPs (Was Re: IN> Real weird speculation) Re: IN> Fwd: DPs and their cars... RE: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like th at) Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 Re: IN> Fwd: DPs and their cars... Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Re: IN> First family Re: Sorcery and Forces (was Re: IN> Newbie!) Re: IN> Yet another question! Re: IN> Format Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:49:33 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Newbie! > Return-Path: Timothy.Groth@colorado.edu > On a related note a defector from heaven's service with Choir attunements > could also start getting Band attunements (along with Force grafts). So > even if they can't become celestials they can become bloated on Forces, > loaded with attunements and have the oh so nice feature of being easily > smiten and not really being a threat to the DP (a lowly human could never > usurp a demon princes power...). Maybe. The CPG makes it fairly clear, IMO, that adding forces beyond a mortal's potential to a mortal is more likely to destabalize the mortal than to work. (I have no idea how this affects immortal humans, but it might work on Nephilim/Gorgons/Saints/Undead, with less of a problem) Then again, this could just be a rumor from superiors to prevent mortals from getting upity. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:26:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Children of Fire Members of this list may be interested in a game called "Children of Fire," which I heard about through the Gaming Outpost (at www.gamingoutpost.com). "Children of Fire" is another angels-&-demons game, available for free, written by Ken Powam (I think). It's at: http://www.mimgames.com/cof/ The writing is a little turgid, but passable. There are interesting similarities and differences between it and IN. They solicit playtesters. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:41:01 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Children of Fire >"Children of Fire" is another angels-&-demons game, available >for free, written by Ken Powam Oops! CoF was written by Erich Wambach - who I think has a great first name. :) >The writing is a little turgid, but passable. There are >interesting similarities and differences between it and IN. >They solicit playtesters. It's not bad. It has a different *feel* from IN, I think. The web page design gets a little annoying. It's purdy, but they present so little info per page. And the navigation is a bit clumsy. I'm babling, though. Best to actually view the game through the PDF file (available in the Downloads section). Overall, it's okay, but I'll stick with IN for my Angels vs. Demons gaming for now. - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of Kronos - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:44:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Children of Fire Erich S. Arendall wrote: > Oops! CoF was written by Erich Wambach - who I think has a great > first name. :) Sorry. They were rather coy with the credits, and comments were to be mailed to the other name. Yes, a PDF download would be easier to read than navigating their site. These same people are also the purveyors of the Window RPG engine, by the way. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:28:20 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Newbie! >A question just occured to me. It says that to get a Choir/Band attunement >a mortal need a Force from the member of the Choir/Band. Now its in the >context of getting the Force/attunement from some Superior or another. Is >it required that the Force come from a celestial that is bound to the Word >or is just having a Cherub Force enough to get Cherub attunements from any >Archangel. I don't think the canon on this is specific on this point. Personally, I'd probably require the Force to come from someone bound to the Word to get that Word's Choir/Band attunement. The whole thing is getting pretty far removed from the normal way attunements work, so I'd limit it to the "closest match" only. >On a related note a defector from heaven's service with Choir attunements >could also start getting Band attunements (along with Force grafts). So >even if they can't become celestials they can become bloated on Forces, >loaded with attunements ... Grafting Forces onto humans is a tricky process, and adding a whole bunch of them is likely to blow up somehow. Frankly, if anyone tried something like this in my campaign, I'd probably have the human spontaneously combust or something at about the 3rd extra Force. Of course, Belial or Vapula probably wouldn't mind that.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:38:20 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) At 19:23 -0400 4/3/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >> Return-Path: milliken@io.com> At 16:37 -0500 >3/31/00, Becky wrote: > >> Nope. Angels, demons, and humans are all distinct >types, you can't be >> part one and part another. Angels can change into >demons and vice-versa, >> but neither can become human, nor can humans become >celestials. (Lilith >> is a special case; Lilith is *always* a special >case, and she likes it >> that way....)Well... > >Hmmm... gives me an idea. If you presume that one of >the reasons that Lilith was able to take a Word was >because she was created as a 15 Force human (or so it >is believed*), then theoretically _another_ created 15 >Force human could also handle a Word. Possibly -- one of our theories (which may be at least mentioned in canon) is that Lilith can hold her Word only because it's *that* specific Word; that only a human has the flexibility to handle the Word of Freedom, and that likewise, that Word is the only one (or one of a *very* few) that could "stick" to the rather mutable set of Forces that form a human. Most other Words are too "pure" to connect well with humans, who are by nature rather chaotic and variable entities, by celestial standards. >Now, it's believed that Adam and Eve were 15 Forces. > ... but I >doubt that they're in Hell. The Infernals would have >made much propaganda out of that. So, they could very >well be in Heaven or the Upper Heavens. Quite possibly. Certainly it seems unlikely that they're in Hell -- as you say, it would have *serious* propaganda value. My own opinion is that they're in the Upper Heavens, though if you like a low-contrast game, it might make sense for God to have casually disbanded their Forces after the Eden experiment was done. > As >far as I know, A&E's Destiny/Fate isn't CDaU, Not that I know of, either. > (true, the nature >of the Higher Heaven _is_ CDaU, but H&H (page >65)states that Archangels very occasionally go there >and come back, so presumedly there's some cross-town >traffic going on) I think this is errata'ed somewhere, or should be. I think it may have been adjusted to be "they *used* to do that, back before the Fall". - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:49:11 -0700 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like th at) Quoth Walter Milliken: >> (true, the nature >>of the Higher Heaven _is_ CDaU, but H&H (page >>65)states that Archangels very occasionally go there >>and come back, so presumedly there's some cross-town >>traffic going on) > >I think this is errata'ed somewhere, or should be. I think it >may have been adjusted to be "they *used* to do that, back before >the Fall". I thought so, too, but fifteen minutes of reading the errata site didn't turn it up. It could be right in front of my face, but. . . . steve feldon illegal monopolist and all around nice guy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:58:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Walter Milliken wrote: > Quite possibly. Certainly it seems unlikely that they're in > Hell -- as you say, it would have *serious* propaganda value. > My own opinion is that they're in the Upper Heavens, though if you > like a low-contrast game, it might make sense for God to have > casually disbanded their Forces after the Eden experiment was done. Having both of them still circulating by reincarnation has a certain appeal, too, especially if it suddenly becomes important to re-locate them. And don't forget that Gaiman's "Sandman" series is one of the inputs to In Nomine, and he had Eve (and Cain and Abel) as permanent residents of the Dreaming. In IN terms, that would put them in the Marches, possibly as permanent dreamshades. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:21:39 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Walter Milliken wrote: > Possibly -- one of our theories (which may be at least mentioned in > canon) is that Lilith can hold her Word only because it's *that* > specific Word; that only a human has the flexibility to handle the > Word of Freedom, and that likewise, that Word is the only one (or one > of a *very* few) that could "stick" to the rather mutable set of Forces > that form a human. Most other Words are too "pure" to connect well with > humans, who are by nature rather chaotic and variable entities, by > celestial standards. It's a fun idea, no? Plus the INS/MV has Eve as the AA of Humanity (which seems reasonable enough even given the above idea.) Hmmm! That would make a FUN game... Lilith as a DP, Eve as an AA, and poor Adam, the original everyman, still alive (he was a 'perfect' human, after all) trying to figure things out in an increasingly confusing world. Even after all these years, he still hasn't decided the way to jump because both sides have proved themselves fallible. > I think this is errata'ed somewhere, or should be. I think it > may have been adjusted to be "they *used* to do that, back before > the Fall". This is what I remember as well. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:18:15 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re:IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 At 0:17 -0400 4/4/00, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > i hope the interal artwork is as good or better. In the interests of promoting Truth over Greed, I believe the GIN artwork is mostly recycled from In Nomine books (hopefully the better pieces). But I won't swear to that for sure. I do know that that was what we proposed, and the production cycle is short enough that I'm dubious about whether they could have solicited a lot of new art for it. It might, for instance, have new art for the chapter splash pages, but I don't really know. (Authors are basically out of the loop after the text is done; so is the Line Editor, for the most part.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:10:45 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Sorcery and Forces (was Re: IN> Newbie!) At 19:55 -0400 4/3/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Suppose a sorcerer or group of them appeared to have found a way to steal >Forces from Celestials. Definitely an amusing idea. If you really want to make the players squirm, make it a government- (or Illuminati-) sponsored project that develops the technique. Then you can have Sorcerors in Black hunting down celestials, backed by the resources of a large human organization. > Messing with Forces normally requires a superior level of power. Other than destructively, at least. With one exception -- humans (and other corporeal creatures) can manipulate them in some way to create new beings, something celestials other than Superiors cannot. >Now...many options exist. It could all just be a hoax. Nothing more. Or.. Another option: they can steal the Force, but it "decays" quickly into Essence, probably a lot of it (say, 10 points or more). Can you say, "angel/demon hunters"...? All kinds of interesting plot lines could spring from this: being hunted for Essence, trying to learn the trick to use it yourself, trying to keep the technique from spreading around. >If it works, why? Well, Sorcery is actually rather mysterious to start with -- it lets humans do a few things celestials *can't*. I don't see any real reason why Force-manipulation can't be among them. >God moving in mysterious ways again. (Unlikely.) Oh, I can see this. Imagine, someday, the government's secret Z-Corps invading Hell to mine it for Forces. God, to Lucifer: "Now, what was it you were saying about humans not deserving respect...?" Lucifer: "But they can't do that to *me*!!!" God, chortling somewhat maniacally: "And who was it who encouraged them to kill others for their own gain...?" - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:44:19 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: IN> INS/MV AA/DPs (Was Re: IN> Real weird speculation) > Return-Path: jkarakash@dg-rtp.dg.com > It's a fun idea, no? Plus the INS/MV has Eve as the > AA of Humanity (which seems reasonable enough even given the > above idea.) Speaking of which, is there a listing anywhere, in english, of the INS/MV superiors, and general info where they differ from IN? I'm now very curious... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:53:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> First family John Karakash wrote: > Hmmm! That would make a FUN game... Lilith as a DP, > Eve as an AA, and poor Adam, the original everyman, still > alive (he was a 'perfect' human, after all) trying to figure > things out in an increasingly confusing world. If one wife is an AA and the other a DP, I'd give Adam a little more clout. Let him, for instance, be alive on Earth, directing an uber-Conspiracy of which all others like the Bavarian Illuinati (founded by an Adam Weishaupt), the Priory of Zion, etc., are all unknowning pawns -- his goal to minimize all celestial interference from either side. And Cain is/was the first vampire, of course, and Abel could be King of the Ghosts, hanging out as a dreamshade in the Marches, and then there's Seth, who channels a lot betweeen incarnations, and one could throw in daughters that the patriarchal Bible mentioned only en masse, along with other sons, quant. suff. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:00:03 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: RE: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 At 0:21 -0400 4/4/00, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >addenda to my last post: G:IN is 192 pages for $23.95. i'm assuming it's softcover. As far as I know, yes. SJGames rarely produces hardcovers, and all the case I know of are "main books" with high sales potential (which, unfortunately, GURPS In Nomine probably doesn't qualify as). > my copy of IN cost $29.95 (i got the black hardcover). however, i'm wondering if there's a page count difference between the two systems, and if so, which one is longer? GURPS books generally have a higher wordcount per page than In Nomine ones, partly due to different layout styles. However, I've heard a rumor that GURPS IN may use In Nomine's 2-col/box layout, rather than the normal GURPS maintext/sidebar format. However, I can pretty much guarantee that the GURPS IN version is longer in wordcount -- there were real questions about how it was going to be squeezed into the 192 pagecount, and there was talk of doing it at 208 pages at one point. There are two main reasons why the GURPS version is longer: - We included a lot of FAQ and errata clarifications in the GURPS IN text. - GURPS fans generally don't like vague rules, so many things had to be specified in more detail than IN's style calls for. And most of Chapter 2 (the Characters chapter) is entirely new, codifying IN character mechanics in GURPS terms. Some stuff from In Nomine was also eliminated in the GURPS version: the basic combat mechanics were removed, of course; also, the big vignettes "A Bright Dream" and "A Dark Dream" were removed, and replaced by much shorter ones. I should also note that there's about 10-15 pages of GURPS mechanics details for attunements and the like that was cut from the final version of GURPS IN; it will be web-published for the insanely curious. None of it is stuff that should affect play, but GURPS players like to know how point costs of powers are computed, and that's what this appendix covered. Overall, the style is probably drier than the main In Nomine book; that's partly because of the different audience. GURPS players tend to favor facts and organization over "flavor text". I hope the result isn't *too* dry, but it's definitely not as "flavorful" as the original book, at least in my opinion. > if/when we get IN2, will it be longer than the current edition (hope, hope)? I have no idea, but I'd guess that it probably won't be -- there are strong marketing reasons not to increase page count (and hence sales price) too much, unless there's a really big audience for the book, with a strong demand that's fairly price-insensitive. Books that sell for much over $20 apparently have a serious sales fall-off relative to under-$20 books, and the curve is apparently fairly steep as you climb much above $20. "Main" books like GURPS Basic and In Nomine are an exception, but not *that* much of one. In Nomine's audience is small enough that I'd guess that the risk of raising the price of the core book is probably too high. One thing that probably *will* happen is a small increase in the text/art ratio, which will allow handling some of the common FAQ questions, and fixing errata, and the like. Elizabeth also wants to re-org the whole thing. I doubt IN 2nd ed. is in the near future, though. The line needs to sell a bit better before it's economic to spend the necessary editorial and layout effort on a revision, rather than a reprint. GURPS IN may be a fairly acceptible substitute, since most of the book isn't really tied to GURPS mechanics very much. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 14:09:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 Walter Milliken wrote: > Overall, the style is probably drier than the main In Nomine book; > that's partly because of the different audience. GURPS players > tend to favor facts and organization over "flavor text". I hope > the result isn't *too* dry, but it's definitely not as "flavorful" > as the original book, at least in my opinion. I've read a fair bit of the playtest files, and didn't find it too dry -- but then, I'm probably more typical of the GURPS audience you aimed at. I found a fair bit of "flavor" worked into the main body, in addition to the isolated little plums of flavor-text. (I was also pleased to see Malakim described as often having their ears pierced, which I think I helped instigate, in discussions on this list, in March '99.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:21:50 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: IN> Eve as Archangel A slight precision: in INS/MV, Eve is the Archangel of _Women_, and currently goes by the name of Catherine -- her true identity is something of a secret. After leaving Eden, she spent a while in Greece, becoming known there as Demeter (yes, that Demeter). Eventually she left Greece and returned to Heaven, where God (who has a soft spot for her) made her Archangel of Women. She dropped out of sight shortly after the Joan of Arc affair, though is still somewhere around the place, as are some of her older servitors. She features as a major character in the _Deus Ex Machina_ campaign for INS/MV, which also involves the Celtic gods making a comeback attempt, the renegade Mathias, Archangel of Confusion, and an assault on Notre-Dame itself . . . Genevieve - --- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:31:37 -0500 From: Jonathan B Lotzer Subject: Re: Sorcery and Forces (was Re: IN> Newbie!) Walter Milliken wrote: > At 19:55 -0400 4/3/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: > >Suppose a sorcerer or group of them appeared to have found a way to steal > >Forces from Celestials. > > Definitely an amusing idea. > > If you really want to make the players squirm, make it a government- (or > Illuminati-) sponsored project that develops the technique. Then you > can have Sorcerors in Black hunting down celestials, backed by the > resources of a large human organization. > > >Now...many options exist. It could all just be a hoax. Nothing more. Or.. > > Another option: they can steal the Force, but it "decays" quickly into > Essence, probably a lot of it (say, 10 points or more). Can you say, > "angel/demon hunters"...? All kinds of interesting plot lines could spring > from this: being hunted for Essence, trying to learn the trick to use it > yourself, trying to keep the technique from spreading around. > > >If it works, why? > > Well, Sorcery is actually rather mysterious to start with -- it lets humans > do a few things celestials *can't*. I don't see any real reason why > Force-manipulation can't be among them. > > >God moving in mysterious ways again. (Unlikely.) > > Oh, I can see this. Imagine, someday, the government's secret Z-Corps > invading Hell to mine it for Forces. God, to Lucifer: "Now, what was it > you were saying about humans not deserving respect...?" Lucifer: "But > they can't do that to *me*!!!" God, chortling somewhat maniacally: "And who > was it who encouraged them to kill others for their own gain...?" > > ---Walter Reading this post reminded me of the VtM different sources of 'ghouls'. Ghouls being the (mostly) human lackies of vampires. Rather simple process, feed a mortal some of your blood, watch him/her/it get stronger, much stronger, and as long as you keep feeding them unaging. No other real powers though. I know that I'm simplifying things, but I think that I hit all of the relevant points. Now, there are really three 'types' of ghoul. The servitors, the classic image, you keep feeding them and they're your loyal pets forever. Sounds roughly equivalent to a typical saint/undead/sorceror. Then there are the independents, like those in this discussion. They've had a taste of power and now want it. The ancient Hunter's Hunted book offers a few suggestions on this, from a roving band of bikers snatching where they could..to an organized legion of hunters who know 'the truth' and steal the blood in order to power themselves. Finally, the Revenants, whose families have been screwed around long enough that they are no longer quite 'human'. Would heartily recommend looking in the VtM Fatal Addiction book, the Hunter's Hunted and maybe some of the older Sabbat books as well for ideas. Wicked, wicked thought taken to a new and different level in a new and different game. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:20:25 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Superiors Stripping Attunements and Distinctions. At 9:37 -0400 4/4/00, Erich S. Arendall wrote: >Is it possible for a Superior to strip the Attunments and Distinctions from >a servitor? Yes. I think there's a little bit on this in the IPG section on switching Superiors. I thought there was some stuff in the GMG in the section on Superior capabilities also, but I'm remembering stuff that was discussed while it was being written, not necessarily the published text. As I recall the canon on this, it was that a Superior could do just about anything to a celestial in his presence except change his Choir/Band and change an angel into a demon (without his consent, at least). Messing with attunements *may* sometimes require consent of the subject as well -- I seem to recall a discussion about whether an attunement could be *forced* on someone being answered in the negative. On the other hand, anything a Superior can grant (like his own attunements), I'd assume he could also take away. As I recall, this can't be done remotely, though -- the Superior has to have either the subject or the subject's Heart in his presence. > For example a demon who once served Saminga and became a >Captain now serves Kronos. Could Kronos remove all the attunements and >Distinctions the demon gained under the DP of Death? Certainly if the demon was in front of him, and agreed to the changes. (On the other hand, would *you* say no to Kronos if he were your boss...?) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:24:11 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Superiors Stripping Attunements and Distinctions. At 10:06 -0400 4/4/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Yes, but why would he? Usually it's the gifting Superior who removes >Distinctions from a transferring Servitor. If Kronos has a (presumably) >loyal Servitor who happens to have some of Saminga's attunements, it >would be to Kronos' advantage to let him keep them and use them in his >service. Generally, yes. About the only cases I can see where this might not hold are: a) where the demon's loyalty to the new Superior over his old one might be questionable -- cutting ties will help ensure that; and b) where the attunement tends to advance someone enemy's Word too much when used. Neither of those cases is cut-and-dried -- it's more of a judgment call on the Superior's part whether leaving the attunement is more beneficial than removing it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:24:17 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV AA/DPs (Was Re: IN> Real weird speculation) > > Return-Path: jkarakash@dg-rtp.dg.com > > It's a fun idea, no? Plus the INS/MV has Eve as the > > AA of Humanity (which seems reasonable enough even given the > > above idea.) > >Speaking of which, is there a listing anywhere, in english, of the INS/MV >superiors, and general info where they differ from IN? > >I'm now very curious... I posted one to the list a while back, can't remember what month it was, though. So, it should in the list digest archives (whereever those are). - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:28:20 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: DPs and their cars... At 11:19 -0400 4/4/00, Steven E. Ehrbar wrote: >ObIN: Novalis -- VW minibus, electric car, or lifetime bus pass? More likely, she walks. Who wants to be cooped up inside a car...? - ---Walter (Who thinks dubiously about her swinging through the trees on vines, a la Tarzan, and gets a headache....) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:31:36 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: RE: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like th at) At 12:49 -0400 4/4/00, Steven Feldon wrote: >Quoth Walter Milliken: >>I think this is errata'ed somewhere, or should be. I think it >>may have been adjusted to be "they *used* to do that, back before >>the Fall". > >I thought so, too, but fifteen minutes of reading the errata site didn't >turn it up. It could be right in front of my face, but. . . . It may be on Elizabeth's list of things that need to be fixed, but haven't. One of the problems of living with the LE is that I'm sometimes unsure about whether some bit of canon has been published or not. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:55:05 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 At 15:09 -0400 4/4/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I found a fair bit of "flavor" worked >into the main body, in addition to the isolated little plums of >flavor-text. Well, some of Derek's original IN text is still there, with various editing tweaks. And the rest of the good bits probably came from Elizabeth. The boring parts are likely to be mine.... (Sometime it might be amusing to see if people can tell which pieces each of us wrote. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd remember -- I sometimes see bits of GURPS IOU that amuse me, and I don't remember having written, but Elizabeth says I did.) Elizabeth wrote all the vignettes, I think, and most of the descriptive text that wasn't from the original book, like the new Choir/Band writeups. >(I was also pleased to see Malakim described as often having their >ears pierced, which I think I helped instigate, in discussions on >this list, in March '99.) To tell you the truth, I hadn't noticed that this had crept in; Elizabeth must have done it. She's certainly not above taking suggestions from the audience. For the edification of the curious, I think the only pieces of text that are substantially lifted from the original IN book are the Songs, most of the Superiors section, and some of the Realms chapter. (But I've probably forgotten something....) For the remainder, much of it is totally new text that simply reorganizes and rephrases the original material, hopefully making it clearer in the process. In some cases, the new material has a slightly different slant than the original, reflecting differences between Derek's and Elizabeth's visions for the line. And there are bits here and there that got added as "color", like the Malakite ear-piercings thing. Some of the Choir/Band character also got illustrated through GURPS mechanics, such as suggested lists of advantages and disadvantages for each Choir and Band, which tends to give GURPS players a feel for the range of common character types. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:15:13 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: DPs and their cars... From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" > > > >Andrealphus -- a Lamboughini Countach. > > Or a van, with a mattress where the rear seats would ordinarily go. > > Thought about it, decided that it didn't have enough style for Andre to go > for it. Also considered giving him the Aston Martin, given the history of > James Bond... OK, good point. It's the soldiers of Andre who would be driving the van... > > > >Kobal -- a Ford Edsel. > > > > No, he'd drive a Tucker. The Edsel didn't completely kill the Ford Motor > > Corporation, after all. > > Well, Henry Ford II intended the Edsel as a tribute to his father, and > instead it became a joke, which wounded HF II very deeply. I still think that the creator of the Tucker having all his dreams shattered and losing everything when the industry turned against him would make it an even better choice. After all, from what I've seen it was an extremely well-designed line of cars. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:16:04 -0400 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) From: "Steven Feldon" > I thought so, too, but fifteen minutes of reading the errata site didn't > turn it up. It could be right in front of my face, but. . . . This part? P. 65. In the second paragraph under The Higher Heavens, change the fourth sentence to read "The Archangels have not been there since the Fall, and do not speak of how it was." http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata/heaven-hell.html GG "To sit in solemn silence in a dull, dark dock, In a pestilential prison, with a life-long lock, Awaiting the sensation of a short, sharp shock, From a cheap and chippy chopper on a big black block!" -- W. S. Gilbert, "The Mikado" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:46:50 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> First family From: "Earl Wajenberg" > > If one wife is an AA and the other a DP, I'd give Adam a little > more clout. Let him, for instance, be alive on Earth, directing > an uber-Conspiracy of which all others like the Bavarian Illuinati > (founded by an Adam Weishaupt) He had to take a last name sometime, after all... ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:55:07 -0400 From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" Subject: Re: Sorcery and Forces (was Re: IN> Newbie!) From: "Sean McCarthy" > As above, but even destroying an entire demonling only rarely yields > anything of substantive value. Still, What If occasionally a large enough > piece of Celestial sticks to a sorcerer's Forces that something innate to > that Celestial (Attunement, Rite..) is conveyed. > > K-rad hax0r Sorcerers find reality loophole, exploit it obviously and > frequently until it gets patched. (Silly.) > There IS a Superior behind the scenes of it all. Maybe trying to figure > out a one-up to Saminga's undead trick. Let's add those three bits up, and spin a plot idea... *Janus* found the reality loophole and revealed it to the sorcerers. Now a bunch of formerly Hell-allied sorcerers are destroying masses of demons, causing serious disruption to Hell. The sorcerers are going through radical personal changes as Forces, Attunements, and celestial memories occassionally "stick". And even as opinion in Hell starts to move more strongly against Hatiphas, the increase in power and importance of the sorcerers has strengthened her Word and her personal power, increasing the conflict within Hell... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:45:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yet another question! At 1:23 PM +0100 4/2/00, Becky wrote: >Well...this one's about the Kyriotate of Wind attunement. THe question >being, can anyone else buy it or does it work with their resonance? IIRC, I wanted it to be anyone, and that's how Valefor's Shedim have it... >The Cherubim of Wind seems to pretty obviously work with their >resonance, even though it doesn't specifically say anything about it in >the description. Yah. If you can't attune to somone, you can't get it. Songs don't count for that one... (psst -- watch out for the message you're replying to being appended to your email. It's kind of spammy.) At 4:12 PM -0700 4/2/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: IIRC, the core IN books don't mark it as restricted. I >don't have them with me, however. The core book doesn't mark _anything_ as restricted. That's just an overt labling of what the main book made you figure out yourself, that I instituted (I think it was me, at least) for the Superior books, and am planning to put into 2/e when events conspire to allow me to do that one... - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, _and_ running back and forth between the condo and the new house. Augh. Moving. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:49:13 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Format At 2:11 PM -0400 4/3/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 0:35 -0400 4/1/00, Jonathan B Lotzer wrote: >>I know that there is both a regular and a digest version of this list, >>and was wondering about the differences. > >I believe the only difference is that the digest comes as a single message >once a day (usually) containing *all* the day's messages. If I recall right, >the archive is done using the digests, so if you want to see one, try >the archive link. What he said, to my knowledge. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, _and_ running back and forth between the condo and the new house. Augh. Moving. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:48:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 At 2:09 PM -0400 4/3/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 3:31 -0400 4/3/00, Tafka J. wrote: >> According to the SJGames website, we can expect G:IN _around_ June > >Quite possible... it's definitely in the editorial process and out of my >hands. (For those people -- if any -- who've been waiting for it, I have >to say "mea culpa"... unfortunately, Real Life intruded on my ability >to finish GURPS IN in a timely fashion.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, _and_ running back and forth between the condo and the new house. Augh. Moving. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little > preemie, > the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, _and_ running back > and forth between the condo and the new house. Augh. Moving. > good grief! have you been possessed by a Shedite (is that the right singular term?) in service to the Demon Prince of Stress? ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com time to change sig files i do not have a new one make something up then - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:09:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) At 4:23 PM -0700 4/3/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Now, it's believed that Adam and Eve were 15 Forces. >Where they are currently has been never stated Not only was it never stated, but the original form of the Lilith expanded writeup (when I was but an author) said of Adam, "...that old, dead patriarch..." and SJ (I am pretty sure it was him) removed the "dead" in the printed version. An early lesson for me in the theory behind CDaU. O;> (I don't know if they're CDaU, but they're certainly DaU at the moment!) >(after >all, it's an open question whether eating the Apple >was their mutual Fate, seeing as the experiment was >corrupted by celestial interference. Still, their >Destiny was _probably_ to resist temptation, so they >might still be playing the reincarnation game), Were they even mortal? Lilith isn't... >H&H (page >65)states that Archangels very occasionally go there >and come back, so presumedly there's some cross-town >traffic going on). Amusing (and confusing to both >sides). See errata -- they don't go there anymore. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, _and_ running back and forth between the condo and the new house. Augh. Moving. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1573 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.