From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 6 15:30:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05996 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:30:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA31395 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:26:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:26:38 -0500 Message-Id: <200004062026.PAA31395@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1575 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1575 In this digest: Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 IN> IN Character Sheets (WAS: G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3) Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or somethinglikethat) IN> Eden, and why it was bad science. Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) RE: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:09:43 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 In a message dated 4/5/00 6:27:23 PM Central Daylight Time, tafkaj@thrifty.net writes: << *coughs!* Uhmn, my Character Sheets are _far_ from official. They're just something I put together 'cause I'm an art fiend. The only reason they are on the SJGames Website, is 'cause they use more 'official' art than I would normally be alotted under the In Nomine Online Policy. With Elizabeth's help (and gracious blessing), Steve Jackson was convinced to host the sheets to protect the copyright. (Also, the design's were based on a set of sheets that were originally available on the net, but have long since vanished. Mind, I was able to cram more into my sheets than any previous such beasts.) >> Just want to say that I love your sheets, and use them habitually. If I could make only one change, I'd add an "Oaths" line to the Malakite sheet, but that's just picking nits. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:01:41 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: IN> IN Character Sheets (WAS: G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3) At 12:09 AM -0400 04/06/00, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >Just want to say that I love your sheets, and use them habitually. *bows* Thanks. >If I could make only one change, I'd add an "Oaths" line to the Malakite >sheet, but that's just picking nits. As I recall, that's what is currently available on the website (unless I've totally forgotten, and only have the 'correct' version in my personal archives). Doesn't matter _much_, since I'll be adding a few new ones to the mix anyway. . . (Well, as soon as I can do some scanning, and have a spare hour or three to deal with Adobe PDF funness!) While I'm at it, two things: #1, please note I did change the thread header. . . Some of us are, uhmn, anal about this sort of thing (besides, it's good Netiquite!). };;;> #2, if anyone can think of something they'd like to see added (short of Choir/Band Resonance and other copyrighted material), please feel free to drop me private email about the subject (in the better interest of keeping the line to noise ratio to a minimum). Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:01:21 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> G:IN Release date & Funky Mushrooms 3 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > Just want to say that I love your sheets, and use them habitually. If I could > make only one change, I'd add an "Oaths" line to the Malakite sheet, but > that's just picking nits. Hey, if you're picking nits, why not have the standard oaths already printed on the sheet? =) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:39:24 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) At 11:11 -0400 4/5/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Adam's age at death is recorded in the Bible -- 900-something. >Of course, this doesn't preclude reincarnation, or a lively career >as a dreamshade, or returning as a Saint, resurrection, etc. > >And maybe IN canon has overruled this bit of the Bible, but I don't >recall it. I don't think there's any canon one way or the other on Adam's death, afterlife, or lack thereof. Maybe he's been frozen in suspended animation in the Siberian tundra for the last few millenia. Siberia would be a great place to hide Eden -- no one would ever think to look there.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:35:14 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) At 10:45 -0400 4/5/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Oh, on the surface the experiment went exactly as has been listed in >Canon, but not long after it was invalidated, Lucifer had his talk >with the Metatron and fomented the Revolt, then Fell. The Archangels >and the Demon Princes were set against one another, with the souls of >humanity in the balance. Ethereals appeared. Humanity flourished. >Words became battlefields. And the Upper Heavens became someplace >wholly apart. > >What if the Eden experiment is still going on? What if God actually >created the Symphony in Microcosm, and the *real* experiment is "what >if the Celestials could run amuck among Humanity, culled along >Selfless and Selfish lines." In our non-canon "Superior soap opera", I've had Jean speculating on the Eden experiment. ["Not to criticize God, mind you, but there are some *serious* problems with the Eden experiment, as an experiment. There must have been deeper purposes than the stated ones."] One of his speculations (based in the "third Avatar" theory) is that the entire Eden experiment was done to set up *Lilith*, and the rest was a complete smokescreen to divert Lucifer's attention away from the truth about her. (That's she's the "third Avatar" -- a being akin to Yves and Kronos, representing the human choice between Destiny and Fate. There's a thing in the list archives a year or so ago that explains this in more detail, for the curious -- search for "third Avatar".) Of course, this requires God to be a ruthless manipulator, but this isn't anything that should bother an Elohite Archangel.... In any case, thinking about the Eden experiment in the context of a (presumably) omniscient being raises a number of questions about what was *really* going on there: * Why only *one* pair of humans? As a statistical sample, it's woefully small, and coming to any conclusions from it would get you laughed out of any scientific journal. Bad scientific method, no donut.... * Why didn't God know that Lilith was going to bolt, and just create Eve in the first place? (This gets into that whole question about just *how* free is free will.) * And why did God change the formula between Lilith and Eve? If the point was to explore the effect of free will, then shouldn't Eve have been given the *same* formulation, to see if different people made different decisions? If not, there are multiple free variables in this experiment, without adequate controls or sampling -- bad science, no donut. * Did God know beforehand that the experiment was going to be contaminated? * Did God know that Lucifer was going to revolt as a result? (For that matter, would Lucifer have *not* revolted if it had gone the other way...?) * Where was Jean during all this? Admittedly, the scientific method hadn't been invented yet, but you'd think he'd have an inkling that this whole thing was flawed. Instead, what Archangel was involved? Novalis. Not one of your Archangels known for especially deep thinking about things, and as a Cherub, probably one of the people least likely to question God's orders. (Okay, she may not have been an Archangel then. But the rest is valid.) My own conclusion is that the whole Eden experiment smells to the Highest Heaven, and must have been some kind of con job by God. Just *who* he was conning, and *why*, and *about what*, are the interesting questions. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:47:09 -0400 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Walter Milliken wrote: > > I don't think there's any canon one way or the other on Adam's death, > afterlife, or lack thereof. > > Maybe he's been frozen in suspended animation in the Siberian tundra for the > last few millenia. Siberia would be a great place to hide Eden -- no one > would ever think to look there.... IMC, Eden is buried beneath the permafrost of the Antarctic, which IIRC was supposed to be green at one stage. Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" - Wu Name: Jive Talkin' Choirboy ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 12:18:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Doctor TOC wrote: > IMC, Eden is buried beneath the permafrost of the Antarctic, > which IIRC was supposed to be green at one stage. I have Eden drowned beneath the Persian Gulf, which I have flooding catastrophically at the end of an ice age, wiping out all the descendants of Adam and Eve, save for Noah and family. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:34:57 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) At 11:47 -0400 4/6/00, Doctor TOC wrote: >IMC, Eden is buried beneath the permafrost of the Antarctic, which IIRC >was supposed to be green at one stage. If I recall right, that was a lot longer ago than the canonical date for Eden -- millions of years ago, when it was closer to the Equator than it is now. Of course, it might still have been there with the current icecap. In fact, that would explain why Eden was guarded with flaming swords -- to keep the ice at bay. On the other hand, Lilith would have had a *really* hard time walking out and joining what passed for human civilization back then.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:50:48 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) >If I recall right, that was a lot longer ago than the canonical date for >Eden -- millions of years ago, when it was closer to the Equator than it >is now. Of course, it might still have been there with the current >icecap. In fact, that would explain why Eden was guarded with flaming >swords -- to keep the ice at bay. On the other hand, Lilith would have >had a *really* hard time walking out and joining what passed for human >civilization back then.... Well she ate from the tree of life so she didn't have to worry about freezing to death. Also she may have met with the rebelling angels before she met with human society at the time, that would provide her an easier way to travel. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:54:51 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Speaking of Antarctica My Gabrielites, led by an Ofanite, are hunting down the ultimate criminals fleeing justice -- Antarctic Space Nazis! Okay, it's not that bad, but there's definately a plot involving anti-left Argentinian guerrillas, a few escaped SS Operation Barbarossa veterans, a stolen WWII U-boat that appears to be nuclear powered, a CIA briefcase that lets you smuggle things through airports, missing nuclear technology, and a mad, dead prophet that has coordinates to a site in Antarctica -- one that could hide a submarine pen -- scrawled all over his arms. The party is looking for angelic tethers there. We guessed that there would be tethers of Jordi, amidst the penguin plains, and someone mentioned that Janus may have tethers there as well, due to the extremely high Antarctic winds. (Useful, now that my wayward Malakite serves Janus.) David was also mentioned, but I figured any tether he would have would be too far below the earth to be of use to the party. Any ideas? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:11:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica I believe Mount Erebus, in Antarctica, is a volcano. Fire Tether? Handy for Gabrielites, unless Belial's got it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:14:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Tim Groth wrote: > Well she ate from the tree of life so she didn't have to worry > about freezing to death. Also she may have met with the > rebelling angels before she met with human society at the time, > that would provide her an easier way to travel. Actually, according to the GMG, Lilith is the one who released the demons from Hell, which is how she got the Word of Freedom, so she wouldn't have met any fallen angels. Ethereals are still an option. Or you can just go non-canonical, of course. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:28:20 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > I believe Mount Erebus, in Antarctica, is a volcano. Fire Tether? > Handy for Gabrielites, unless Belial's got it. Nothing to burn down there, so I doubt Belial would even be interested. Gabriel's fire can exist for its own sake, but Belial like to destroy. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:34:31 +0100 From: Becky Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or somethinglikethat) I don't know so much about the canon IN universe...so I can't comment on the involvement of Novalis or where Jean was or anything...But I think agree with Walter's assessement. The only *reason* for an experiment is to prove or disprove a theory, or learn. God, as an omniscient being, would therefore only experiment with something he could not possibly predict...i.e. freewill. If he already *knew* the outcome, then we must assume he is, as Walter says, a supreme manipulator - which, as an omniscient being, he certainly is capable of. But still - I find this hardto believe. In the end it would be a very petty thing to do...it's like...blackmailing your doll! What's the point? But perhaps it's just because I don't like the idea of having no control of my fate/destiny :p Becca. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:13:29 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Eden, and why it was bad science. > My own conclusion is that the whole Eden experiment smells to the Highest > Heaven, and must have been some kind of con job by God. Just *who* he was > conning, and *why*, and *about what*, are the interesting questions. Lucifer proposed the experiment, and probably knew it was flawed from the start. He wanted it to be flawed, to prove that humanity was not worth it, to prove that God was arbitrary, unfair, and probably dead anyway. (For a darker vision, it's highly likely that Lucifer had proto-Balseraph powers at this time -- akin to the ways Angels can use demonic resonances in the optional GMG rules -- and was using them to convince others that the experiment was right. In my idea below, this was not the case.) Unfortunately, the doubts of the angels regarding the value of the experiment would be led astray by a well-meaning Yves. It is implied that God was ineffable and aloof even in those days, so we can assume that Yves and God were the ones who discussed the experiment. Yves would communicate the idea to God... ...and God appears to have intentionally severed his knowledge of the results of free will. Maybe God's angle was to see what Lucifer would do. Lucifer was, after all, the best and the brightest. If the shining Lightbringer could not resist corrupting an already corrupt experiment in his quest to pursue his own selfish goals, then how could any lesser angel hope to resist intervening on earth? If Lucifer manipulated the experiment further, then it was clear that the angels did not deserve to touch mankind. If Lucifer let it proceed and abided by the results, then perhaps the angels had a point. And poor Yves is often blinded by his knowledge of all the best that could happen. If you're Yves, and you're concerned about Lucifer, wouldn't you condone an experiment that you saw having a potential to return your wayward brother to the fold? > ---Walter There's no con. There's just fallable angels, serving a God who has intentionally limited his omniscience to allow free will. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:35:04 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Doctor TOC wrote: > > > IMC, Eden is buried beneath the permafrost of the Antarctic, > > which IIRC was supposed to be green at one stage. > > I have Eden drowned beneath the Persian Gulf, which I have > flooding catastrophically at the end of an ice age, wiping > out all the descendants of Adam and Eve, save for Noah and family. IMC, I take a page from JRR Tolkein's Silmarilion, changing the slope of the earth, so that Eden is still there, but on a plane tangent to the earth's surface, one that is not quite in line with the plane of earth from any location, hence the fact that no one can see it, just floating there in the air. Those who know the way, who know where to find the single point of contact, and who can access it with the expenditure of Essence, can literally walk away from the Earth and into Eden. And sometimes people just get lucky, and *phhttt* disappear. Brigadoon, anybody? Or is Eden cloaked by Limbo? Why do some Celestials never come back from Limbo, even though their friends have sent them more than enough Essence to be able to build a new vessel? and where is God hiding this New Jerusalem that He is building for post-Armageddon Earth, if the Book of Revelations is correct? My answer, IMC, is -- on the tangent plane. Comments, critiques? Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well - Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in hell! "Strange Blood" A Wolfrider's Reflection, by various artists ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:36:38 EDT From: "Angela Smythe" Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica Maybe a Tether to Jean. All those labs doing research, while trying not to damage the natural wonder. Mammon is probaly trying to get a foot hold so he can get at the natural resources, that are going to waste. Or, maybe not all of the Labs are doing "Good" science and one is Vapula controled. Being untouched means everybody wants a peice. They are just trying to figure out how to get it. Angela ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:45:21 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica > Return-Path: ben@zianet.com > The party is looking for angelic tethers there. We guessed that there would > be tethers of Jordi, amidst the penguin plains, and someone mentioned that > Janus may have tethers there as well, due to the extremely high Antarctic > winds. (Useful, now that my wayward Malakite serves Janus.) David was also > mentioned, but I figured any tether he would have would be too far below the > earth to be of use to the party. > > Any ideas? There are exposed rocks, in antartica. David would be possible. As would be tether's of the waters, tether's of light, a tether of dreams at the south pole (for all who had asperations of getting there), a tether of death at the last camp of a failed artic expidition, lightning or technology at any of the permanent research sites, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:48:43 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) At 12:50 -0400 4/6/00, Tim Groth wrote: >> [Eden in Antartica] >> On the other hand, Lilith would have >>had a *really* hard time walking out and joining what passed for human >>civilization back then.... > >Well she ate from the tree of life so she didn't have to worry about >freezing to death. Also she may have met with the rebelling angels before >she met with human society at the time, that would provide her an easier >way to travel. Well, there weren't any fallen angels yet, though there may have been some under Lucifer's influence then, pre-Fall. But I think the story is that the only angels she met after leaving harassed her about going back to Eden and being a good little girl. I doubt they'd give her a lift *away* from Eden.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:15:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica At 2:45 PM -0400 4/6/00, Galen G. Silversmith wrote: > a tether of death at the last camp of a failed artic expidition, Kobal, actually, IIRC. Been a while, but I think it's mentioned in his writeup(s) and the Liber Castellorum... - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, _&_ running back & forth between the condo and the new house. Augh. Moving. *&* as of 2pm 4/5/00, still no phone connection for the new house! Yay Limbo. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:17:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) > My own conclusion is that the whole Eden experiment smells to the Highest > Heaven, and must have been some kind of con job by God. Just *who* he was > conning, and *why*, and *about what*, are the interesting questions. Straight Catholic answer: God required Adam to Fall and be the source of original sin so that he could prepare the world for the coming of the Redeemer, Jesus Christ. Only through the Fall, caused by Free Will, could Adam's descendants in the form of Man be able to return to Heaven of their own Free Will. Bertrand Russell's answer: The endless praises of the choirs of angels had begun to grow wearisome; for, after all, did he not deserve their praise? Had he not given them endless joy? Would it not be more amusing to obtain undeserved praise, to be worshipped by beings whom he tortured? He smiled inwardly, and resolved that the great drama should be performed. Kabbalistic answer: "But nowhere, I believe, is the mythical content more evident than in the symbolism which identifies this God of the sefiroth with man in his purest form, Adam Kadmon, Primordial Man. Here the God who can be apprehended by man is himself the First Man. The great name of God in His creative unfolding is Adam, as the Kabbalists declared on the strength of a gematria, or numerical equation (isopsephism), The Bahir had spoken of the ' seven holy forms of God,' each corresponding to a part of the human body. From here it was only a short step to Adam Kadmon, a conception from which the anthropomorphic and mythical view of God never ceased to draw new justification." -- Gersholm Scholem, _On the Kabbalah and Its Symbolism_ According to (some of) the Kabbalists, Adam Kadman was God manifest on the Earth as the progenitor of humanity. How this works in In Nomine is left up to the reader, but I suspect an answer is far simpler than trying to make Lilith one of the cornerstones of the universe. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:24:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) > Well, there weren't any fallen angels yet, though there may have been some > under Lucifer's influence then, pre-Fall. But I think the story is that > the only angels she met after leaving harassed her about going back to > Eden and being a good little girl. I doubt they'd give her a lift *away* > from Eden.... Is it just me, or is Lilith being made out to be a poor little girl who was beat up by the big bad angels? Emily K. Dresner -- Writer, Guitarist, Hacker, Freak Pyramid Columnist, "Women in Gaming" -- http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/ Freelancer, In Nomine -- http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/ C is often described, with a mixture of fondness and disdain varying according to the speaker, as "a language that combines all the elegance and power of assembly language with all the readability and maintainability of assembly language". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:30:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Emily Dresner wrote: > > Well, there weren't any fallen angels yet, though there may have been some > > under Lucifer's influence then, pre-Fall. But I think the story is that > > the only angels she met after leaving harassed her about going back to > > Eden and being a good little girl. I doubt they'd give her a lift *away* > > from Eden.... > > Is it just me, or is Lilith being made out to be a poor little girl who > was beat up by the big bad angels? Yeah, but that's par for the course around here. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:34:35 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica In a message dated 4/6/00 11:38:32 AM, angela_smythe@hotmail.com writes: >Maybe a Tether to Jean. All those labs doing research, while trying not >to damage the natural wonder. Mammon is probaly trying to get a foot hold >so he can get at the natural resources, that are going to waste. Or, maybe not >all of the Labs are doing "Good" science and one is Vapula controled. Being >untouched means everybody wants a peice. They are just trying to figure >out how to get it. > >Angela Actually, Malphas is quivering in anticipation about his incipient tether in the US research station. The ten- or fifteen-year maintenance contract was up as of 1 Jan 2000. And a different provider got the contract. The suits and counter-suits and lack of maintenance are making for a *very* frustrating summer/fall down there. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:57:43 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica At 12:54 -0400 4/6/00, ben wrote: >The party is looking for angelic tethers there. We guessed that there would >be tethers of Jordi, amidst the penguin plains, and someone mentioned that >Janus may have tethers there as well, due to the extremely high Antarctic >winds. (Useful, now that my wayward Malakite serves Janus.) David was also >mentioned, but I figured any tether he would have would be too far below the >earth to be of use to the party. Probably, though ice *is* a mineral, and the stuff in Antarctica is probably old enough to almost qualify as rock. As Earl mentioned, there's at least one volcano down there. There might also be an old Tether of Oannes -- lots of water and ice, maybe on the Ross Ice Shelf. There are a number of scientific stations there, so Jean (and/or Vapula) may have Tethers in one or more of those. Blandine might have a Tether at the South Pole station -- that was the Holy Grail for many explorers. (For that matter, the Scott expedition death site may be a Dark Humor Tether. Or Factions.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:24:44 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) At 3:17 PM -0400 4/6/00, Emily Dresner wrote: > > >How this works in In Nomine is left up to the reader, but I suspect an >answer is far simpler than trying to make Lilith one of the cornerstones >of the universe. Does it involve Velveeta? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:43:09 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: RE: IN> Speaking of Antarctica > My Gabrielites, led by an Ofanite, are hunting down the ultimate criminals > fleeing justice -- Antarctic Space Nazis! Okay, it's not that bad, but > there's definately a plot involving anti-left Argentinian > guerrillas, a few > escaped SS Operation Barbarossa veterans, a stolen WWII U-boat > that appears > to be nuclear powered, a CIA briefcase that lets you smuggle > things through > airports, missing nuclear technology, and a mad, dead prophet that has > coordinates to a site in Antarctica -- one that could hide a submarine > pen -- scrawled all over his arms. > > The party is looking for angelic tethers there. We guessed that > there would > be tethers of Jordi, amidst the penguin plains, and someone mentioned that > Janus may have tethers there as well, due to the extremely high Antarctic > winds. (Useful, now that my wayward Malakite serves Janus.) > David was also > mentioned, but I figured any tether he would have would be too > far below the > earth to be of use to the party. > > Any ideas? The Ice Castle is a Vapulan Flying Saucer Base. See Projekt Saucer for details Ymir the norse Supergod is frozen under the Ice. The ruins of Atlantis. [Which expains where the maps Pir Reis copied came from.] Adam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:52:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) > >How this works in In Nomine is left up to the reader, but I suspect an > >answer is far simpler than trying to make Lilith one of the cornerstones > >of the universe. > > Does it involve Velveeta? > SHH! No secrets! The marmosets are watching, and they have guns! Emily K. Dresner -- Writer, Guitarist, Hacker, Freak Pyramid Columnist, "Women in Gaming" -- http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/ Freelancer, In Nomine -- http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/ "What? Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?" - Nieztsche ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 12:59:10 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Antarctica >My Gabrielites, led by an Ofanite, are hunting down the ultimate criminals >fleeing justice -- Antarctic Space Nazis! Yes!!! Kick Ass!! . . . >The party is looking for angelic tethers there. We guessed that there >would >be tethers of Jordi, amidst the penguin plains, and someone mentioned that >Janus may have tethers there as well, due to the extremely high Antarctic >winds. (Useful, now that my wayward Malakite serves Janus.) David was >also >mentioned, but I figured any tether he would have would be too far below >the >earth to be of use to the party. > >Any ideas? Yeah, I suggest an army of cybernetically enhanced penguins controlled by a mad scientist (driven insane by the cold, of course) who's a Soldier of Technology. A Tether to Vapula, of course. I mean, we all know that teams of scientists have gone down there, but . . . exactly what kind of research were they doing??? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:11:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) >On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Emily Dresner wrote: > But I think the story is that >> > the only angels she met after leaving harassed her about going back to >> > Eden and being a good little girl. >> Is it just me, or is Lilith being made out to be a poor little girl who >> was beat up by the big bad angels? Oh, yeah, forgot the angel's POV... "Oh, yeah, we talked to her after she walked out, the . We were trying to give her a second chance, explain that she was throwing away God's _gift_, taking her life and wasting it! What thanks do we get for trying to _help_ the ? She throws _rocks_ at us and tells us to get lost, that it's _her_ life and she'll do what she damned well wants. Selfish . Shrill as a harpy. Yeah, I'll bet she's talking about flaming swords and ultimatims. _I_ sure didn't do any of that. I just tried to explain that she really really didn't want to leave Eden, honest, and she takes it as some kind of threat. Or maybe not -- selfish brat like that, she'd have run from a threat, not thrown rocks and mud and rotten fruit. No wonder the demons call humans 'talking monkeys'..." - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, _&_ running back & forth between the condo and the new house. Augh. Moving. *&* as of 2pm 4/5/00, still no phone connection for the new house! Yay Limbo. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:12:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) At 3:24 PM -0400 4/6/00, Emily Dresner wrote: >> Well, there weren't any fallen angels yet, though there may have been some >> under Lucifer's influence then, pre-Fall. But I think the story is that >> the only angels she met after leaving harassed her about going back to >> Eden and being a good little girl. I doubt they'd give her a lift *away* >> from Eden.... > >Is it just me, or is Lilith being made out to be a poor little girl who >was beat up by the big bad angels? Well, that's certainly the line that _she'll_ tell people, should she be asked. (Would you expect her to tell any _other_ story? I mean, really?) I suppose the main question is, "Was she evil from the start, did she become evil (and if so, why), and is she nothing _but_ evil?" (And anyway, poor little girls who were beat up by big bad angels and take the Atlas Bodybuilding Course can get pretty obnoxious... Just feeling victimized doesn't make someone nice, or on the right side, or anything else -- except feeling justified.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, _&_ running back & forth between the condo and the new house. Augh. Moving. *&* as of 2pm 4/5/00, still no phone connection for the new house! Yay Limbo. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:12:35 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something like that) Has anyone told you lately that your knowledge is very impressive? It was more impressive in person, granted, but you are one of just a couple of people who brings interesting information into the list...or Pyramid for that matter. Now that I'm done trying to flatter, uh, can you suggest any particularly good net resources for Nephilim? I have a number of the books now and might start a game but I feel I haven't quite found that I-don't-know-what needed to run a really interesting game. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:10:51 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) At 15:24 -0400 4/6/00, Emily Dresner wrote: >> Well, there weren't any fallen angels yet, though there may have been some >> under Lucifer's influence then, pre-Fall. But I think the story is that >> the only angels she met after leaving harassed her about going back to >> Eden and being a good little girl. I doubt they'd give her a lift *away* >> from Eden.... > >Is it just me, or is Lilith being made out to be a poor little girl who >was beat up by the big bad angels? Well, the above was an attempt to summarize what various people here have posted about the Lilith legend: I seem to recall that some angels were supposed to have chased after her, trying to get her to go back. I'm sure your reading is *Lilith's* viewpoint: created as the next best thing to a lab rat, offered her choice of enslavement to Mr. Macho Jerk, or to walk out into a total unknown (possibly deadly) outside world, then badgered by people trying to get her to go back in the maze to play slave after she said no. (I vaguely recall there's supposed to be a scene by the side of a lake where she's having sex with demons when the angels berate her, but that couldn't fit the IN continuity, so I cut that part.) None of which makes her a *nice* lab rat, really. I don't think there's any inherent goodness in being a victim -- it may simply be that the victim lacks the power to victimize others. Lilith certainly managed that later, when she got a little power. Was she a victim in Eden? She almost certainly thinks so. The Truth of the matter requires understanding the mind of God, which is a pretty tall order. Or maybe Lucifer, which isn't much easier. Personally, I'd say that Lilith, Adam, and Eve were *all* victims of a bunch of powerful beings who were playing with their lives, for their own purposes. Some of them might have cared more about their subjects than others, but the fundamental situation doesn't look much different from the human viewpoint - -- toy or pet, is it *really* a feature? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:25:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Real weird speculation (Was: Newbie, or something likethat) Emily Dresner wrote: > Is it just me, or is Lilith being made out to be a poor little > girl who was beat up by the big bad angels? (Emily already knows this bit, but for the general list): The source and font of all the variations on Lilith as Adam's first wife is her story in a medieval popular work called "The Alphabet of Ben Sira," which can be found at: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/alphabet.html Here, Lilith and Adam have a spat about who should be underneath when they have sex. Neither is given a lot of moral advantage. "They would not listen to each other," the narrator says. Lilith flies away, using the Name of God to work the magic. The tale "explains" Lilith's role as a baby-killing monster, which role appears to be a lot older than the tale of her as Adam's first wife. Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1575 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.