From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 10 23:05:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03836 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:05:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA19340 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:03:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:03:17 -0500 Message-Id: <200004110403.XAA19340@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1579 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1579 In this digest: Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Angel of the Dawn (part 2) Re: IN> Angel of the Dawn (part 2) IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? IN> Vessels & Forms (Re: Question about Lilim?) Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Re: IN> Question about Lillim? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:03:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Wade Hursman wrote: > I've been reading the Corporeal Player's Guide in depth lately, and have > some questions concerning the "flavor text" concerning Johnny and the demon > Rawmeat. Now, in the story, Rawmeat (a Calabim of Fire) Hardcore, not Fire. > 1: Can the Corporeal Song of Shields really contain a nuclear blast? What > are the limits to this song, In Canon, anyway? It can contain ANY physical attack. Apparently, explosive/nuclear energy is considered physical as well. > 2: Since Johnny's soul made it to heaven, what about Rawmeat? Would a nuke > have the potential to remove Forces from a celestial caught in it's blast? In Canon, no. Rawmeat just went into Trauma normally. Personally, I'd say something along those lines could remove a CorpForce or two, but that's a GM judgment call. > 3: If Rawmeat made it out of Trauma in any recognizable shape, he'd have > gained at least 2 points of dissonance right? One for getting burned by his > own scheme, and another for just getting burned? Or am I wrong on that? No, I forget what the Hardcore dissonance condition is, though... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "I am the greatest man in the world; indeed I am SO great that I can afford great generosity: I encourage all others to adopt the DELUSION that they are as great as I. If they truly thought that they were themselves the greatest, they too would be as generous; and then we would all be able to HUMOR each other, in peace, for none would feel threatened by the now-harmless delusions of everyone else." -- Philo Drummond ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:05:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Wade Hursman wrote: > 1: Since the Song of Shields >can< stop the force of a nuke going off, what > about the ground inside the radius of the Song. It still takes the full > brunt of the blast yes? So, somewhere in the city of Chicago (I think) > there's a 3 foot circle of nuclear glass that's highly radioactive, right? Heh, heh, heh... yup. Great red herring/clue, eh? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Conspiracy religions CONvert, the Subgenius SUBverts! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:24:55 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Omentide wrote: > > I guess it depends a lot on what an individual finds difficult about > playing cross-gender. Lilim trade favours. Some people see that as > essentially feminine. Despite Lilith's own Word, it makes them > dependent on others. Some would see that as essentially feminine. > They can't be macho. Not even the male ones. I would disagree quite strongly; trading, selling, and dealing aren't really activities that are necessarily feminine -- Wall Street has long had a reputation for having a mens' locker-room culture, and Shylock from the _Merchant of Venice_ is certainly a very good model for a Lilim character. Actually, barring a few cases like giving birth or being elected Pope, I'm hard-pressed to come up with character concepts that have a good expression only for one sex. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:05:36 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? >From: "A.Hamilton" >> > >If nothing else, > >the gender of the vessel influences the way in which others react to the > >character. > > >Well, except for Lilim. Their celestial form is their vessel with green >skin and horns. Mercurians & Impudites also have celestial forms based off their current vessels. (I wonder what that means if they have animal vessels.) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:05:47 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? >From: "A.Hamilton" >> > >If nothing else, > >the gender of the vessel influences the way in which others react to the > >character. > > >Well, except for Lilim. Their celestial form is their vessel with green >skin and horns. Mercurians & Impudites also have celestial forms based off their current vessels. (I wonder what that means if they have animal vessels.) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:32:28 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? >From: Neel Krishnaswami >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Omentide wrote: > > > > Lilim trade favours. Some people see that as > > essentially feminine. Despite Lilith's own Word, it makes them > > dependent on others. Some would see that as essentially feminine. > > They can't be macho. Not even the male ones. > >I would disagree quite strongly; trading, selling, and dealing aren't >really activities that are necessarily feminine -- Wall Street has >long had a reputation for having a mens' locker-room culture, and >Shylock from the _Merchant of Venice_ is certainly a very good model >for a Lilim character. > Or Morden, from Bab5. Anyway, I agree and this kind of stereotyping (women are weak, manipulative, bitchy, co-dependent) makes my skin crawl. 'Feminine' can include being Joan of Arc or Camille Paglia, and 'masculine' can include being Valmont or Ponzi (possibly the best Lilim role-model available? :) ). jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:46:58 +1000 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of the Dawn (part 2) > > Ofanites dont have to hurry do they? > > They just like to keep moving, and as fast as they can... or > > am I mistaken? > > Well, always moving as fast as one can certainly *seems* like hurrying, > 'least to those of us whose pulse doesn't sound like a machine-gun... They *like* to keep moving, they enjoy it, but do not have to. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 04:02:19 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Angel of the Dawn (part 2) At 5:46 PM +1000 4/10/00, Azrael wrote: > >They *like* to keep moving, they enjoy it, but do not have to. It seems perfectly in the realm of Ofanism to be "active and outgoing" instead of "frenetic." I have at least one Ofanite who's incredibly enthusiastic, pushing to continue the mission or seeking new missions, rather than being driven to just keep moving for moving's sake, for instance. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:40:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Wade Trupke Subject: IN> Question about Lillim? > From: "A.Hamilton" > > Canonialy speaking, can a Lilim be male? > I thought this was in the main book somewhere, although I could be recalling a look through the IPG. I do remember reading the term "Sons of Lilith" somewhere, though. Anyhow, my take on it (which may or may not have to do with anything in print) is that Lilim, while non-gendered like all celestials, think of themselves as being of one gender or the other. (Perhaps due to being created by a being who is, or at least started out, human.) Most think of themselves as female, but a number of them do see themselves as being male. They can use vessels of either gender, of course, but they tend to prefer those of their preceived gender. Which brings us to the obvious question: What if a Lilim ends up spending most of her/his time in a vessel of the other gender, and her/his celestial form starts to look like that vessel? Does her/his perceived gender change? Or does she/he just feel like "a woman trapped in a man's celestial form" (or vice versa)? Wade (no, not that Wade, some other guy named Wade) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:26:40 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > > > So, somewhere in the city of Chicago > > (I think) > > there's a 3 foot circle of nuclear glass that's highly > > radioactive, right? > > Yeah, this raises some bigger questions. So you stop a nuke with > CorpShields... What happens to the radiation and the material? GM's discretion. It's _quite_ valid to say that the force is simply dissipated. POOF! ...when it hits the edge of the shield, taking the radiation and whatnot with it. > I mean, > anyone coming near that building is going to get a hefty dose of radiation > poisoning... In addition, that radioactive material may seep into the water > supply, bringing with it its own fun results... In addition, what sort of > emanations does CorpShields stop? Would the USGS register (seismologically) > a nuclear blast going off there because of vibrations? I understand this > starts to get into the taboo area of miracle physics, but if the blast > doesn't register, there's a good way to cause a lot of long-lasting damage > to a major population source. No vibrations since no force escapes the Shield. Conservation of energy doesn't apply here. =) (Or it might, but not for the local area... much like the Ofanim of Gabriel attunement.) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:09:21 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces > Return-Path: tillek@ix.netcom.com > > It's fortunate Yves is aware of what happened, and could refer that > > to different damage control types, then. I expect the time between > > his meeting the newly dead lad and his meeting with the girlfriend > > was spent taking necessary steps to prevent ecological disaster. > > Hey! We don't *know* it was Yves... It could have just been some kindly old > man... You're making the same mistake so many PCs do... Whenever a kindly > old man who has no business being where is or knowing what he does walks up, > they assume its Yves and not just some crazy who got lucky with his guesses > this time... Or maybe there is a little corps of mercurians of destiny, wandering around, making it SEEM like Yves is everywhere. They all have (functionally) identical vessels and are kept quite busy... (alternatively, this could also have been a prophet, of some sort. Or half a dozen other things) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:27:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? At 5:18 PM -0400 4/8/00, A.Hamilton wrote: >Canonialy speaking, can a Lilim be male? Main book: p. 148, second paragraph under Manner And Appearance. "Not all Lilim consider themselves female. Many of them use male vessels [...]" IPG, p. 52: "While most Tempters choose to be female, a [significant] minority prefer male vessels. These 'Sons of Lilith' learn 'masculine' behavior, but are not otherwise distinguishable from their sisters in personality. [...] And, of course, some Lilim are bisexual -- they have male _and_ female vessels, and don't identify with one gender over the other [...]" (I think I had it in my mind that they're all _created_ (superficially?) female, though, and becoming 'male' is a choice.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while A: taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, B: running back & forth between the condo and the new house, and C: coming down with a flu probably. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:31:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? At 1:26 PM -0500 4/9/00, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >This brings up the interesting question of 'what gender are newly created >Lilim'? Does Lilith create them with a Vessel, with or without stripping >away the Vessel when she's done? Is there a default Celestial Form by >which Lilim without Vessels can be recognized? I've generally thought (this isn't canon, but I don't promise that it won't creep in someday, or that it will) that they are created with a sort of "generic" female appearance, at least moderately attractive, and probably (if you know how to look) hints of Lilith's own appearance. Sort of like running off a faded copy... O:> - --Beth, catching up as she can, while A: taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, B: running back & forth between the condo and the new house, and C: coming down with a flu probably. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:40:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Vessels & Forms (Re: Question about Lilim?) At 11:05 PM -0700 4/9/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: "A.Hamilton" >Mercurians & Impudites also have celestial forms based off their current >vessels. (I wonder what that means if they have animal vessels.) They get mistaken for Djinn or Cherubim if the observer badly fails a Perception roll? O;> (Okay, it just tickles me to think of a Lilim with only a racehorse vessel walking around the Guildhall as a green, horned horse. With Geas-bracelets rattling around her hooves.) Seriously, that's how I'd play it -- the non-human vessel is the "form" (at least, if they've never had a human vessel; I'd let them use the memory of a human vessel if they wanted, even if that vessel'd been destroyed). But people who see them will be able to _tell_ the Band easily -- though they might be startled if they only glimpsed the being or only heard it! (Assuming you allow "hearing" in the celestial realm, such as hoofbeats on stones.) Non-vesseled Mercurians and Impudites, I generally say have a human form befitting their preferences for eventual vessel, but with a slightly "fuzzy-around-the-edges" appearance. IMC (where "C" stands for campaign, not canon), one can tell with those Bands/Choirs if they've got a vessel or not. Entertaining, especially in Hell, where PC types can lord it over those demons who clearly _haven't_ been to Earth ever. (Or play the "human fakeout" trick from TFOS on their hapless Hellbound associates...) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while A: taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, B: running back & forth between the condo and the new house, and C: coming down with a flu probably. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:29:32 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? At 12:31 PM -0400 4/10/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >I've generally thought (this isn't canon, but I don't promise that it >won't creep in someday, or that it will) that they are created with a >sort of "generic" female appearance, at least moderately attractive, >and probably (if you know how to look) hints of Lilith's own appearance. >Sort of like running off a faded copy... O:> > Mmmm... Xerox copies.... Which brings to mind an Adventure Seed. Lilim start showing up that are somehow unstable. Their Geases are unreliable. They've got sometimes wildly inappropriate Discords for no apparent reason. They're dissonant even though they're "new" Lilim. Three possibilities come to mind: 1) Somehow, Lilith's ability to spawn daughters is resulting in increasingly lower quality Lilim. Either she's had to step up production and her Forces can't take the strain all that well, or some other cause comes to mind. 2) Some kind of "illness" is befalling Lilim, with the newer (and likely weaker) Lilim being first affected. This could be anything from a Vapula invention to destroy Lilim who don't work for him to Lilith becoming dissonant or discordant or pre-Redeemed, and her Daughters somehow sympathetically being distorted at the same time. 3) These Lilim weren't created by Lilith, but by Vapula (or someone) using a powerful Lilim as a "template." So they're a copy of a copy and they don't fully work. (Which is a Technology Hallmark, now that I think about it....) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:52:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Whistling in the Dark wrote: > 3) These Lilim weren't created by Lilith, but by Vapula (or > someone) using a powerful Lilim as a "template." So they're a > copy of a copy and they don't fully work. (Which is a Technology > Hallmark, now that I think about it....) I'd think that Hell would be littered with a fair number of pseudo-Lilim created by various Princes (especially Vapula) at various times, all trying to break Lilith's monopoly on Lilim manufacture. These critters would be things that wound up being the only member of their "Band" to ever exist because they weren't quite Lilim. And I bet Eli, at least, and maybe Jean, tried a few times to create Bright Lilim, resulting in angels who always sing solo at Choir practice... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:01:11 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I've generally thought (this isn't canon, but I don't promise that it > won't creep in someday, or that it will) that they are created with a > sort of "generic" female appearance, at least moderately attractive, > and probably (if you know how to look) hints of Lilith's own appearance. > Sort of like running off a faded copy... O:> Fun idea, yes. I've also been toying with the thought (and probably others have thought this as well) that Lilith's 'humanness' is what allows her to make Lilim. Their main power is neither selfish nor selfless, per se. It can be used in either fashion (and is). Actually, this raises another thought: What if each Lilim is made around the core of a human soul? Dismantled, washed, refurbished and made into a demonic one. Since converting an actualized human is impossible (or very, very difficult), she steals human children... preferably newborns. This ties together the unique nature of Lilim and her reputation as a baby-stealer from old legends. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:15 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? >From: Earl Wajenberg > >I'd think that Hell would be littered with a fair number of >pseudo-Lilim created by various Princes (especially Vapula) >at various times, all trying to break Lilith's monopoly on >Lilim manufacture Not so sure about them wandering around Hell. One suspects that failed experiments are taken apart to find out what went wrong. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:08:20 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces From: "John Karakash" > > > > Yeah, this raises some bigger questions. So you stop a nuke with > > CorpShields... What happens to the radiation and the material? > > GM's discretion. It's _quite_ valid to say that the > force is simply dissipated. POOF! ...when it hits the edge > of the shield, taking the radiation and whatnot with it. If I were running a game that dealt with the aftermath of the CPG's story, I'd have a section of pavement in Chicago simply not be there anymore, much like the way it worked in the Terminator movies when somebody would be transported back to our time. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:26:02 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? In a message dated 4/10/00 7:41:30 AM Central Daylight Time, trupke@rocketmail.com writes: << Which brings us to the obvious question: What if a Lilim ends up spending most of her/his time in a vessel of the other gender, and her/his celestial form starts to look like that vessel? Does her/his perceived gender change? Or does she/he just feel like "a woman trapped in a man's celestial form" (or vice versa)? >> I always thought that the whole "variable celestial form" thing was based on the particular Celestial's self-image. That the image we see is largely dependant on who's watching (and I think that would include the Celestial in question. You're always aware of yourself.) So a Lilim who spent a lot of time in a male vessel, but still thought of herself as female, would still appear female in celestial form. Of course, continually using a male vessel would eventually alter your self-image. The Lilim may come to think of herself as male, though he/she may not like that fact and seek to change in back. "Hey, Mom? Can I have a female vessel? I'll owe ya!" "Well, obviously!" Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:33:46 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces Prodigal wrote: > > GM's discretion. It's _quite_ valid to say that the > > force is simply dissipated. POOF! ...when it hits the edge > > of the shield, taking the radiation and whatnot with it. > > If I were running a game that dealt with the aftermath of the CPG's story, > I'd have a section of pavement in Chicago simply not be there anymore, much > like the way it worked in the Terminator movies when somebody would be > transported back to our time. Oooooh, nice imagery! - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:49:37 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces From: "John Karakash" > > Prodigal wrote: > > > > If I were running a game that dealt with the aftermath of the CPG's story, > > I'd have a section of pavement in Chicago simply not be there anymore, much > > like the way it worked in the Terminator movies when somebody would be > > transported back to our time. > > Oooooh, nice imagery! Thanks! I just couldn't see Yves not doing something to prevent the spread of radioactivity in the wake of the explosion, after all. :::) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:08:14 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? At 10:24 PM -0500 04/09/00, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Actually, barring a few cases like giving birth or being elected Pope, >I'm hard-pressed to come up with character concepts that have a good >expression only for one sex. So, what about Pope Joan? (Obviously Kobal's better jokes.) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1579 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.