From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Apr 12 08:44:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02773 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:44:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id IAA30134 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:39:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:39:10 -0500 Message-Id: <200004121339.IAA30134@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1580 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, April 12 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1580 In this digest: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? RE: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? IN> Pope Joan Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Re: IN> Question about Lillim? IN> Something Appropriate for S4. . . IN> A vignette... Re: IN> A vignette... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:30:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:01:11 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim?Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> I've generally thought (this isn't canon, but I don't promise that it >> won't creep in someday, or that it will) that they are created with a >> sort of "generic" female appearance, at least moderately attractive, >> and probably (if you know how to look) hints of Lilith's own appearance. >> Sort of like running off a faded copy... O:> > Fun idea, yes. I've also been toying with the >thought(and probably others have thought this as >well) that Lilith's 'humanness' is what allows her to >make Lilim. Their >main power is neither selfish nor >selfless, per se. It can be used in either fashion >(and is). Actually, this raises another thought: >What if each Lilim is made around the core of a human >soul? Dismantled, washed, refurbished and made into >a demonic one. Since converting an actualized human >is impossible (or very, very difficult), she steals >human children... preferably newborns. This ties >together the unique nature of Lilim and her >reputation as a baby-stealerfrom old legends. Veddy interesting. It violates canon (as humans can't ever become celestials), but then, strictly speaking, Lilith herself would be in violation of that rule... :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Unanswerable Questions __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:02:34 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? Tafka J. wrote: > At 10:24 PM -0500 04/09/00, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >Actually, barring a few cases like giving birth or being elected Pope, > >I'm hard-pressed to come up with character concepts that have a good > >expression only for one sex. > > So, what about Pope Joan? (Obviously Kobal's better jokes.) Touche. :) Seriously, I thought that IRL rabid anti-Catholic propagandists invented Pope Joan during the Reformation. A lot of the legend surrounding her (such as her deception being discovered when she gave birth in the streets of Rome) seem kind of unlikely except as propaganda. But I honestly haven't looked too closely at the legend, so I could be wrong. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:09:00 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> Question about Lillim? > Seriously, I thought that IRL rabid anti-Catholic propagandists > invented Pope Joan during the Reformation. A lot of the legend > surrounding her (such as her deception being discovered when she gave > birth in the streets of Rome) seem kind of unlikely except as > propaganda. Hmm... I *think* she really existed... My understanding was that her papacy was suppressed in the Middle Ages, and then come Reformation-time someone found the old records, at which point the Catholic church decried them as false creations of a bunch of rabid anti-Catholic propagandists... I'm not entirely sure, however. I know that Donna Woodfolk-Cross (sp? name may not be right), who fictionalized the account of Pope Joan in the appropriately titled 'Pope Joan' thought that she actually existed... - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:31:16 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? > Return-Path: tillek@ix.netcom.com > Hmm... I *think* she really existed... My understanding was that her papacy > was suppressed in the Middle Ages, and then come Reformation-time someone > found the old records, at which point the Catholic church decried them as > false creations of a bunch of rabid anti-Catholic propagandists... I'm not > entirely sure, however. I know that Donna Woodfolk-Cross (sp? name may not > be right), who fictionalized the account of Pope Joan in the appropriately > titled 'Pope Joan' thought that she actually existed... There was a time that Pope Joan was accepted in the catholic canon. THis has since been reversed. The last time I did any research into this, the only records for Pope Joan were in english before the acceptance into canon; none in latin or italian. The odds of a pope existing, who's history can only be traced through medival english documentation is minimal, at best. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:05:29 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Pope Joan neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: > Seriously, I thought that IRL rabid anti-Catholic propagandists > invented Pope Joan during the Reformation. A lot of the legend > surrounding her (such as her deception being discovered when she gave > birth in the streets of Rome) seem kind of unlikely except as > propaganda. > > But I honestly haven't looked too closely at the legend, so I > could be wrong. For many centuries, the Church itself believed the Pope Joan legend was true. In the last century or so, historians did enough research to determine that Pope Joan is almost certainly apocryphal. However, in In Nomine, I wrote that Pope Joan really DID exist -- in fact, she was a Soldier of Dark Humor set up to be stoned to death by Kobal, whose demons then went about muddling with historical documents so that first the Church would believe she existed, then later "prove" she didn't. This was unfortunately part of the GMG that had to be cut for lack of space. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:29:17 -0700 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? > Veddy interesting. It violates canon (as humans can't > ever become celestials), but then, strictly speaking, > Lilith herself would be in violation of that rule... > :) IIRC. This is Not Necessarily Canon. Humans cannot become celestials. Human /Forces/ can be bound into celestials, resulting in a celestial with vague memories of human existence. With babies it's even better, because you don't get that many memories of human existence, and they can be explained away as strange creation memories. On the other hand, you could say that Lucifer shared with Lilith his method of tricking the Symphony into /thinking/ that she's a celestial... - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:00:10 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Question about Lillim? At 1:29 PM -0700 4/11/00, EDG wrote: > > Veddy interesting. It violates canon (as humans can't > > ever become celestials), but then, strictly speaking, > > Lilith herself would be in violation of that rule... > > :) > >IIRC. This is Not Necessarily Canon. > >Humans cannot become celestials. Human /Forces/ can be bound into >celestials, resulting in a celestial with vague memories of human existence. >With babies it's even better, because you don't get that many memories of >human existence, and they can be explained away as strange creation >memories. This I like -- the idea that a baby's Forces would be stripped from the baby and rebound (perhaps with a passage through Lilith to give it that mm-good Lilith flavor) into a demonling, with other Forces added to bring it up to Fledging into a Lilim. It adds a wonderfully dark element to the creation of Lilim, and makes the Band-name "Daughters" ironic in a hideous way. By "like," above, I mean "I'm utterly repulsed in a way a Demon Princess should repulse me." So, clearly Lilith is still doing this practice. It's just now, she's leaving a stillborn corpse of some sort behind to throw people off the track. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:51:31 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: IN> Something Appropriate for S4. . . Pity the playtest is long since over for Superiors4. Still, it would've been funny if, for instance, a certain missing sentence from the last page of S1 was used for an 'quote' in S4. . . It might explain what happened to it. . . Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:47:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> A vignette... This got posted to the list a while back, but the topic's come up again, so what the hey. - ----- [This concept is the fault of Jo Hart and Maya (GR Cogman), who came up with a slightly different notion, which I have seachanged and brazenly swiped.] Harvesting Forces ================= There was no moon as the figure slipped into the room. Starlight was enough, though, for the figure to weave her way deftly through the sleeping bodies of the family. Five thin children, no more than a year apart in age. The parents, faces worn and lined even in sleep. A grandparent over by the cooling hearth. And by the parents, a rough cradle. The figure slipped over to it, knelt to touch the sleeping baby. Yes, it was young enough. Her hand brushed down the child's body, searching for something it did not find, and then moved to the baby's face. Gently, carefully, she Freed the Forces within the mortal, and the child's body grew still. The family had one less mouth to feed, and one less girl to dower. Lilith stood and made her way out of the room, closing the door quietly behind her. A pitiful number of Forces, but it was easier to get them this way than to try to wrench them from the Symphony. And she needed more children, if she was to stay out of some other Prince's grasp when Lucifer's interest in her waned. Once, she'd believed he would never forsake her. Once, he had owed her much, for her aid in encouraging Tethers that would free the rebels from their Heaven-made prison. Once, he had made it a point to caress her hair when they were together. Now, however... She eased open another door, and the young wife within stirred in her sleep. Lilith hummed quietly, laying her will over the mortal, and the girl subsided. Her husband never even twitched. The Princess glided to the cradle there, too, and touched the babe as she had the one before. A little token was pinned to its wrappings, and Lilith raised it to catch the starlight. "Sennoi, Samangaluf, Sansanui," she muttered. She put it back in the wrappings. "Obviously you're a wanted child, even if you are a girl." She stood, leaving the baby sleeping quietly, and moved on. There were plenty of others who were unwanted, whose Forces could be Freed easily, and whose removal would free their parents of unwanted burdens. Besides, sometimes human prayers had actual impact, and Lilith did not particularly want to confront those who had created her for their own amusement. Not without more power, to defy them if they decided she was worth capturing, to summon help through the Geases. The next building had twins. The boy was guarded by a token, the girl was not. She touched the girl's face, then rose, leaving one child sleeping behind, the other more still than sleep. As Lilith headed for the next building, she counted the Forces she had acquired. _Another two or three, and I can create another one of my own. Good._ Still, she thought dark thoughts at the other Princes. If they were not so stingy with their own Forces, she would be able to build Daughters without all this tedious unbinding of mortal Forces as the raw materials. While she was at it, she added a few choice curses to the proud Princes of Heaven, who preached duty and obedience, and kept her own Word too weak for her to rip Forces out of nothingness. The next room, the child was too old, his Forces too tightly bound to be worth the trouble of untangling and his personality formed enough that it might affect a Daughter who was build with them. The one after that, the boy was young enough, and unprotected. She stooped and laid her hand over his face. - ------ - --Beth, catching up as she can, while A: taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, B: running back & forth between the condo and the new house, and C: coming down with a flu probably. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:37:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A vignette... This is one of the best and most chilling pieces of IN fan-fiction I've ever seen. Also, even though it's not canon, it's compatible with canon, and nicely illustrates how Freedom can be a Hellish Word, when Lilith uses it to murder and Force-strip babies. If anyone gets tired of Lilith being painted in a shade they think too Bright, they need only model her on this vignette. Earl, who has more than once anxiously checked the respiration on a very quietly sleeping baby ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1580 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.