From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 17 23:18:06 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28706 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:18:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA21683 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:15:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:15:28 -0500 Message-Id: <200004180415.XAA21683@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1585 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 17 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1585 In this digest: IN> Testing, testing... Re: Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Re: IN> Actually... Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Re: IN> Re: Orson Scott Card Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, ... Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, ... Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN RE: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces IN> Dark Eli Thought Re: IN> Actually... Re: IN> Dark Eli Thought Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Re: IN> Dark Eli Thought RE: IN> Dark Eli Thought Re: IN> Dark Eli Thought Re: IN> Dark Eli Thought IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:26:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> Testing, testing... Haven't seen anything from the list since switching over to the new email address.... mic check one two... mic check one two three four... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! STEP 21. Frost the nuts. Big bag of nut in grocery store, why are they there? There for buying, and then to frost. Much like cake frosting, nut frosting sweet and smooth. Spread much like butter, but without grease and bubble. Allow nut to dry, then place on very best noodle tray. While allow for nuts to dry, think about new form of punishment. No frost for nut go bad, so take away and replace. ("How To Become A Famous Rock Star", LMNOP) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:55:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:40:35 -0500From: David Edelstein >Between this and your journal, though, I keep finding >myself pausing longingly in the computer gaming and >electronics aisles.... >- -David (I *used* to play computer games. They're >worse than crack, Itell you!) David, David, David .... I'm surprised at you. You're a published IN author, for crying out loud! Surely _you_ would know the dangers of admitting to the existence of a Need in a such a public forum ... ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Waving Big Red Flags in a Bull's Face __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:18:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... Maurice Lane wrote: > David, David, David .... I'm surprised at you. You're > a published IN author, for crying out loud! Surely > _you_ would know the dangers of admitting to the > existence of a Need in a such a public forum ... I don't worry about Lilim. I always make my Will rolls. - -David (if I had to resist with Perception, I'd be in trouble) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:23:17 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... At 12:18 AM -0500 4/17/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Maurice Lane wrote: > >I don't worry about Lilim. I always make my Will rolls. Remember, kids, a 12 Will isn't just a good idea, it's the *law.* - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:56:20 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... <<< Ah, but not only are you an Ofanite, you're an Ofanite with the Corporeal Song of Shields. No smashing up fenders for this little taxi. >>> GMing tip required here: if one of your players wants to go as fast as he wants from point A to point B in a big city using a car. And the shortest way is through a crowded street. The player starts a Corporeal Song of Shields large enough to contain the car, and goes full speed in the street, not worrying about hurting anybody or crashing into any other car, since his car can't cause any harm to any other being. What happens? If nobody's hurt, how do you describe it? i.e. What does the miracle look like? I realise that in the context of this thread, an Ofanite would prefer to run or go Celestial. I also realise that exposing a miracle to such an important number of witnesses would make his/her Superior VERY angry and would probably get the character destroyed, but with a twisted player, the situation is possible... Laurent, Demon of annoying questions. :¬) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:19:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat... On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Laurent wrote: [You drive really fast with Corp Shields through a crowded street.] > being. What happens? If nobody's hurt, how do you describe it? i.e. What does > the miracle look like? I'll step up to bat. I both played and GMed 1st Edition Mage, back when Coincidental magick was massively broken. The way this miracle works is as follows: FACT 1. Precondition, "natural state" of the Symphony. There's a car going very fast through a crowded street. FACT 2. Final Result of the Song. Nobody gets hurt. FACT 3. What Songs do, in General. A Song modifies the Symphony (changes some notes) so that the final result occurs. This is violent to the Symphony, and detectable, but only to Celestial Perceptions. So, I would have the song modify the "notes" that correspond to the perception/decision areas of the humans. (The Songs of Charm can mess with these things; this damages Free Will not at all.) Therefore, the Corporeal Song of Shields in this case makes everyone notice the car in time to get out of the way safely. That's the (in Mage terms) Coincidental way. The Vulgar way is to have a whirlwind surround the taxi and harmlessly relocate any unfortunate in the way. The Superiors won't like that one. I remain, Michael Martin "It is commonly the case with technologies that you can get the best insight about how they work by watching them fail." -- Neal Stephenson, "In the Beginning... Was the Command Line" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:02:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Jo Hart wrote: > I'd add the Damiano trilogy by R MacAvoy, if you can get hold of > them -- they're about a renaissance sorceror who talks to Raphael > on a regular basis. Also, I think MacAvoy's Raphael makes a great role model for the sunnier types of angelic roleplaying. He is sweet and gentle without being sticky. A little more on the novels of Charles Williams, mentioned earlier -- They were written in the '30s and '40s, I think, and sometimes dubbed "spiritual romances," though we would now call them "modern fantasy," since they are all about an eruption of something otherworldly into our mundane world. His style is rather heavy, but there are some interesting ideas in there, many suitable as In Nomine inspirations. Titles include: The Place of the Lion: A mystical philosopher accidentally unleashes Platonic archetypes on the English countryside. Imagine Words at large without any AAs or DPs to control them... The Greater Trumps: A young lawyer of gypsy extraction realizes his ancestors' dream of getting back the One True Tarot Deck, which turns out to not be such a hot idea. A set of uber-artifacts. Many Dimensions: Evil archeologist vs. upright magistrate in battle for control of the gem in King Solomon's crown, which bears the True Name of God. Another uber-artifact. Descent into Hell: Bizarre phenomena attend the gradual damnation of one character and the salvation of another, notably dopplegangers. We get to see Lilith in an unflattering suburban role, trying to drum up Needs. There are two other titles, but I can't remember the plots. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:27:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Actually... At 7:46 PM -0400 4/16/00, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >The book itself, however, MORE than makes up for that minor complaint, >especially the section on Nybbas. I always had a hard time getting my head >wrapped around him, and now I feel like I could even run a Media campaign! Y'know, RPG.net is rather sparse on reviews of the Superiors books... (Okay, okay, I'm shameless. I can't write a review myself -- even if I tried, it would come out sounding like ad copy (and probably bad, overblown ad copy at that) -- so I'm trying to get _other_ people to write unbiased prai--ah, reviews, so that people can see that the line's gotten better since the dark days of the LE interregnum...) - --Beth, catching up as she can, while A: taking care of her little preemie, the Impudite Princess of Cute, aka Iolanthe, B: running back & forth between the condo and the new house, but fortunately not (apparently) C: coming down with a flu probably. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:34:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN As a latecomer to this thread, I know it must have been mentioned already, especially as it's in the bibliography section of the IN main rulebook, but it bears repeating: Good Omens, Pratchett & Gaiman Azriphale is a wonderfully out-of-touch-with-reality angel, and Crowley is a delightfully hip demon. Sort of the Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect of celestials. Wonderful characterizations... Also: Someplace to be Flying, Charles de Lint Trader, ibid. Anyone planning an Ethereal-oriented campaign or session should run out and read anything de Lint wrote. The presentation of the Ethereal mindset is wonderful. O. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:25:15 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Orson Scott Card At 11:29 -0400 4/14/00, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >Except that he DOES have a series based on the Book of Mormon -- The >Memory of Earth series. Seems like Mormon sci-fi to me... Yes. Actually not too bad, until the last book in the series, where he gets *very* heavy-handed with the Christian message. The earlier books leave more open questions, and are more interesting, in my opinion. Also his "Alvin Maker" series has some fairly serious Christian overtones, though not to the extent of the Memory of Earth series -- at least as far as I've read the Alvin Maker series; I think I'm a book or so behind now. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:47:43 -0700 From: "EDG" Subject: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) > GMing tip required here: if one of your players wants to go as fast as he wants > from point A to point B in a big city using a car. And the shortest way is > through a crowded street. > The player starts a Corporeal Song of Shields large enough to contain the car, > and goes full speed in the street, not worrying about hurting anybody or > crashing into any other car, since his car can't cause any harm to any other > being. What happens? If nobody's hurt, how do you describe it? i.e. What does > the miracle look like? Actually, I'm not entirely sure that the premise is correct. Anything inside the Shield can't get hurt by anything outside the Shield, and vice versa; but I don't think it's canon that the /Shield/ doesn't hurt anything. One would think that an object running into the proverbial Immovable Object at full speed would cause serious problems to that object's structural integrity. I feel sorry for any fire hydrants caught inside the Shield... On the other hand, since nothing corporeal can pass through a Song of Shields, your character wouldn't be able to hear the screams of the people who he's running over with his Sphere of Death. ;) Here's a question. The Corporeal Song of Shields creates an impenetrable sphere, through which nothing corporeal can pass. It's also created a certain number of feet away from the user's body. What happens when something's caught in the middle - half inside the sphere, half outside? Does it get chopped in half? Or does it get shoved in the direction where most of it is? (Or just outside the Shield?) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:02:55 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) At 13:47 -0400 4/17/00, EDG wrote: >Here's a question. The Corporeal Song of Shields creates an impenetrable >sphere, through which nothing corporeal can pass. It's also created a >certain number of feet away from the user's body. What happens when >something's caught in the middle - half inside the sphere, half outside? >Does it get chopped in half? Or does it get shoved in the direction where >most of it is? (Or just outside the Shield?) Most of these problems (and others) have arisen with the GURPS spell "Force Dome". I'd suggest using the FAQ answers on that, and/or stealing the Force Dome text a little, to resolve these problems in IN. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:02:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) EDG wrote: > Actually, I'm not entirely sure that the premise is correct. > Anything inside the Shield can't get hurt by anything outside the > Shield, and vice versa; but I don't think it's canon that the > /Shield/ doesn't hurt anything. I'd say this depends on whether the GM wants to understand the effect as essentially physical or essentially ... moral. If physical, then the Song generates a force field, a very intelligent one that doesn't let excessively violent effects through itself. If moral, then there's no force field; there is simply a stipulation that nothing inside the radius will harm anything outside or vice versa; it just doesn't happen, never mind how. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:10:01 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) EDG wrote: > Here's a question. The Corporeal Song of Shields creates an impenetrable > sphere, through which nothing corporeal can pass. It's also created a > certain number of feet away from the user's body. What happens when > something's caught in the middle - half inside the sphere, half outside? > Does it get chopped in half? Or does it get shoved in the direction where > most of it is? (Or just outside the Shield?) I play very fast and loose with this in my campaigns (i.e. I don't have a canonical answer for you). Here's what I have done and, considering that the general affect is miraculous, I make no apologies for inconsistencies. 1) Things on the border will either by harmlessly pushed in the proper direction. A very quick person (one who recognizes what is about to happen and can move before the Song completes) can blow their action to dive in the direction of their choice. 2) Floor/walls/etc: The Singer can move and the Shield will move with him. It will generally shape itself to the environment if mobile. Essentially, the person will walk 'on' the shield rather than actually on the ground. The shield will shrink to fit the environment _in response to the person's moving_. So if the Singer goes down a narrow corridor, they will have a narrow Shield temporarily. However, if they are just standing still, even the sudden arrival of matter (walls or otherwise) won't cause the Shield to change size in the slightest. 3) If the Singer chooses, the Shield will harmlessly encompass parts of things (walls, floors, etc), but will be stationary due to this. Of course, the encompassed parts can be affected (and will affect) those in the shield normally. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:04:19 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN "O. S. Kerr" wrote: > Good Omens, Pratchett & Gaiman > Azriphale is a wonderfully out-of-touch-with-reality angel, and > Crowley is a delightfully hip demon. Sort of the Arthur Dent > and Ford Prefect of celestials. Wonderful characterizations... "Good Omens" is pretty much the definitive In Nomine novel, at least for a humorous campaign. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:06:43 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) EDG wrote: > Actually, I'm not entirely sure that the premise is correct. Anything > inside the Shield can't get hurt by anything outside the Shield, and vice > versa; but I don't think it's canon that the /Shield/ doesn't hurt anything. > One would think that an object running into the proverbial Immovable Object > at full speed would cause serious problems to that object's structural > integrity. I feel sorry for any fire hydrants caught inside the Shield... The vignette in the Liber Canticorum shows humans trying to tackle a Soldier who's got the Corporeal Song of Shields up, and being violently thrown back. Not only that, but getting hit by bullets that ricochet off of it. > Here's a question. The Corporeal Song of Shields creates an impenetrable > sphere, through which nothing corporeal can pass. It's also created a > certain number of feet away from the user's body. What happens when > something's caught in the middle - half inside the sphere, half outside? > Does it get chopped in half? Or does it get shoved in the direction where > most of it is? (Or just outside the Shield?) One more time -- it's not physics, IT'S A MIRACLE! Go with what's cinematic and nifty. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:10:25 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Walter Milliken wrote: > Most of these problems (and others) have arisen with the GURPS spell > "Force Dome". I'd suggest using the FAQ answers on that, and/or stealing > the Force Dome text a little, to resolve these problems in IN. I strongly suggest NOT doing that. GURPS Magic is designed to operate in a more or less "logical" fashion, generally obeying the laws of physics except that it's, well, magic. It fits the style of GURPS. In Nomine, however, is about miraculous beings and miraculous powers. If we picked apart the miracles in the Old Testament the way we pick apart the way the Corporeal Song of Shields is supposed to work, we'd be arguing about how the radius of a circle can possibly equal 3 times its diameter, and how all those animals fit on the Ark, etc. etc. (Which is perfectly reasonable when faced with Biblical inerrantists, but not much fun when nitpicking a fantasy game.) - -david ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:03:47 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, ... In a message dated 4/17/00 12:49:51 PM Central Daylight Time, edg@sjgames.com writes: << > GMing tip required here: if one of your players wants to go as fast as he wants > from point A to point B in a big city using a car. And the shortest way is > through a crowded street. > The player starts a Corporeal Song of Shields large enough to contain the car, > and goes full speed in the street, not worrying about hurting anybody or > crashing into any other car, since his car can't cause any harm to any other > being. What happens? If nobody's hurt, how do you describe it? i.e. What does > the miracle look like? >> I'm curious. Does the Song of Shields move? Wouldn't it just trap the car inside it? Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:07:34 -0700 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, ... > I'm curious. Does the Song of Shields move? Wouldn't it just trap the car > inside it? The Corporeal and Ethereal Songs of Shields move with the user. The Celestial Song of Shields is used on a location rather than a person, and thus does not move. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:14:45 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN At 9:34 AM -0700 4/17/00, O. S. Kerr wrote: >As a latecomer to this thread, I know it must have been >mentioned already, especially as it's in the bibliography >section of the IN main rulebook, but it bears repeating: > >Good Omens, Pratchett & Gaiman >Azriphale is a wonderfully out-of-touch-with-reality angel, and >Crowley is a delightfully hip demon. Sort of the Arthur Dent >and Ford Prefect of celestials. Wonderful characterizations... And *the* model for a somewhat lighthearted mixed IN campaign, for my money. Both the Angel and the Demon have an Interest in preventing Armaggedon, they work together very smoothly, and neither one has much interest in Smiting the other save a bit verbally. Plus, there are good bits about books. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:30:51 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN - --On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 4:14 PM -0400 Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 9:34 AM -0700 4/17/00, O. S. Kerr wrote: >> As a latecomer to this thread, I know it must have been >> mentioned already, especially as it's in the bibliography >> section of the IN main rulebook, but it bears repeating: >> >> Good Omens, Pratchett & Gaiman >> Azriphale is a wonderfully out-of-touch-with-reality angel, and >> Crowley is a delightfully hip demon. Sort of the Arthur Dent >> and Ford Prefect of celestials. Wonderful characterizations... > > > And *the* model for a somewhat lighthearted mixed IN campaign, for > my money. Both the Angel and the Demon have an Interest in > preventing Armaggedon, they work together very smoothly, and > neither one has much interest in Smiting the other save a bit > verbally. Plus, there are good bits about books. > > And music. You forgot about the music. Tchiakovski's "Fat Bottomed Girls" is really without equal. Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:33:59 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: RE: IN> IN: Atomic bombs and Forces David Edelstein wrote: > Adam Benedict Canning wrote: > > Alternitively if you don't like the disturbance that would cause then > > pouring> soluble radio nucleides into the see is more cost efficent. > > But if a demon dumped it in there, then everything that dies as a result > (including the fish) will cause a disturbance, likely alerting Heaven. > > -David And the fallout from the nuke doesn't cause disturbance? If you are worried about it, supply a human with the unmarked barrel and have them do it. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:44:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Harris Bias Subject: IN> Dark Eli Thought Eli dropped out of Heaven in 1957 and there was a major Eli-esque revolution in the 1960's, there is an obvious, if coincidental connection. If Eli was behind the 60's revolution (at least partially, I suspect Novalis, Janus and Andreaphalus also had a hand) then it's possible he was behind the massive number of drug related deaths of musicians and artists in the late 60's and early 70's. Eli: Hey, cool, I've helped all these musicians and artist create all this real cool stuff, and helped them achieve their Destinies... Hey, wait. If they've achieved their destinies then when they die they'll be lost to Earth. Hmmm... Hey, if I lead them to their Fates they'll reincarnate and be here for another go 'round. Yeah. Okay, Jimi let's see what your Fate is... Die of a drug overdose? No problem.... - -- G. Harris Bias Habbalah of Hardcore, Demon of Cutting of One's Nose to Spite One's Face. hbias@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:04:53 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> Actually... At 10:27 AM -0400 04/17/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Y'know, RPG.net is rather sparse on reviews of the Superiors books... I know. . . > so I'm trying to get _other_ people to write unbiased prai--ah, reviews, > so that people can see that the line's gotten better since the dark days > of the LE interregnum...) Well, I _was_ planning on doing S1 soonish. . . };;;> Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:51:39 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Dark Eli Thought Hrm. If they meet their fates, they go to Hell, which is something that Eli wouldn't want except in his darkest, poised on the brink of falling incarnations. But if he simply prevented them from reaching their destinies... Cheers, Ryan "Okay, here's the plan. We wait for Armageddon, and when all the spirits of Hell are given mortal form, we get ourselves killed and hang around in Limbo for a few centuries." -Phiel, Ofanite Outcast of Wind, running out of ideas on an escape from Hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:50:16 -0400 From: Andrew Dawson Subject: Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Here are two more "Christian" themed SF books: The Living One by Jim(?) Hawkins - I really can't recommend this one but I keep around to remind myself of how badly written a generic SF novel can be. The plot goes something like this: Jesus has returned to Earth in the far future and been captured by the highly advanced evil overlords of Earth. Meanwhile a band of Jedi-inspired True Believer rebels starts fighting their way toward Earth to free him. It smacks of a series (a la Gor) and if anyone has heard of any others in the series. I'd appreciate names, etc. It may be that I won't be able to resist the allure of other such unintentionally humorous, bad space opera, Gor-like-in-their-inanity, Star Wars ripoff, Biblically fundamentalist books. Now that I've said all of this, I really hope that neither Mr. Hawkins nor anyone of his friends is on this list. I mean everything that I say, but it sounds so mean. Gem of the Wanderer by ? - trade paperback allegory of Satan/drugs leading impressionable youth away from a loving God figure on another planet in the future. Juvenilia, I think. I really can't recommend this one either, but at least it has pictures of the neat, futuristic, off-road (turned into hippie van) vehicles. Thanks, Andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:45:51 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Dark Eli Thought >Hrm. If they meet their fates, they go to Hell, which is something that >Eli wouldn't want except in his darkest, poised on the brink of falling >incarnations. If you reach both your Fate and Destiny you get reincarneted. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:53:57 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Dark Eli Thought Timothy wrote: > If you reach both your Fate and Destiny you get reincarneted. Or disbanded. According to memory, it's about a 50-50 chance of each. It's not really worth the risk of *never* coming back. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:11:55 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Dark Eli Thought Tim Groth wrote: > >Hrm. If they meet their fates, they go to Hell, which is something that > >Eli wouldn't want except in his darkest, poised on the brink of falling > >incarnations. D'oh! Well, I guess you win this round. But I'll be back, and more powerful than you can imagine! *goes back to feverishly studying his IN books, in preparation for next time* (sorry ^_^) Cheers, -Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:20:50 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Dark Eli Thought At 7:51 PM -0700 4/17/00, Ryan Elias wrote: >Hrm. If they meet their fates, they go to Hell, which is something that >Eli wouldn't want except in his darkest, poised on the brink of falling >incarnations. > >But if he simply prevented them from reaching their destinies... Does Eli have any particular in about Fate and Destiny? Enough of one that he could drive someone to both, or avoid one or the other? To shade-of-grey all this, what if he induces drug overdoses, shootings and what have you because said Visionaries achieve their Destinies, and he wants to protect them from Hell. So he sees them dead first... after all, they could come back as Saints then.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:11:32 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Hello all, Here's a writeup of the late, un-lamented demon Princess of Oblivion... Mariel, who was devoured by Haagenti shortly after he attained Princehood. Your comments, thoughts, and feedback are very welcome. Doug M. * * * * * MARIEL Demon Princess of Oblivion "The World is a horrible mistake. It should not be, or, better yet, it should never have been." History The Elohite Mariel was once the Angel of Memory, Heaven's record-keeper, brightest servant of bright Raphael, Archangel of knowledge. But Lucifer sought her out, and walked beside her for a little while... Mariel came to dwell more and more upon certain unhappy truths: how memories shift and lie so that nothing is certain, how no two souls can ever agree on perfect Truth, and how all records are ultimately subjective distortions. When Lucifer rebelled, she Fell with him, and it is said that her last act before departing Heaven was a fruitless attempt to destroy the Library. As a Habbalite, Mariel still believed that she was serving God, but her world-view was bizarre even by the liberal standards of that Band. The world was hopelessly tainted and flawed at its creation; God had allowed it to be infected with falsehood and subjectivity. God's will, therefore, must be that his crippled creation should recognize its own imperfection and destroy itself. Mere physical destruction, while laudable, was not nearly enough; the world had to be obliterated _as if it had never been_. Lucifer, in what may have been a rare moment of humor, granted Mariel the Word of Oblivion, and the new Princess set to work with a will. Many of the missing pieces in human history are Mariel's work. Great works of art were destroyed and forgotten, libraries burned and crumbled to dust, tribes and cities and even whole empires disappeared and were forgotten forever... and Mariel smiled. Outlook The Princess of Oblivion was always one of Hell's looser cannons; she was unpredictable, irrational, and violently nihilistic. Though aggressive in pursuing the War (Mariel thought that Armageddon would be a good thing no matter who won), she rarely cooperated with other Princes. In some ways, Mariel might be considered the Infernal equivalent of Uriel. Both were radical, hard-core, and uncompromising; both demanded incredibly high standards of their Servitors. Working for Mariel was not easy, but the survivors tended to be very tough indeed; no less than three of today's Princes (Alaemon, Haagenti, and Saminga) were Servitors of Oblivion at least briefly. Mariel actually admired Uriel... from a distance; the feeling was _not_ mutual. It's rumored that she occasionally worked with some of his Servitors, if not with the Angel of Purity himself, to eliminate certain... imperfections in the Symphony. In person, Mariel presented as quiet, intense, and utterly mad in a coldly rational sort of way... Saminga without the high-camp ranting, perhaps, or Vapula without the smile. Nobody remembers just what Mariel looked like, though Haagenti claims to remember how she tasted. Mariel's Fate As time passed, Mariel's isolation and frustration grew; for all her good work, humans kept learning things and *remembering* them. The world grew older and more complicated, but showed no signs of self-destructing. The advent of Legion seems to have been her last hope for universal oblivion, and his destruction left her in despair. It is said that at the end, when Haagenti broke through her inner defenses, she spread her arms wide to him and laughed. Mariel's servants scattered quickly after her destruction; most went to either Saminga or Haagenti, with a handful serving other Princes. A few still hold her attunements, but (except for her former Servitors) for the most part Hell has already forgotten Mariel... which would undoubtedly have pleased her no end. Still, one occasionally encounters the rumor that Mariel's Fate was not quite complete... that there was something more to it. Whatever it may have, been, though, remains shrouded in oblivion. Mariel's Principality has also been lost to history, though all agree that it was somewhere in Stygia, and legend says that her palace stood above the springs of the river Lethe. At least one expedition has tried to go up the river, hoping to find Oblivion's lost citadel and whatever treasures it might yet contain. Unsurprisingly, the expedition never returned, and its fate remains unknown. Former Servitors Ex-servants of Oblivion are not common, but there are more than you might suppose; because Mariel was a very demanding Superior who relentlessly weeded out the weak, they tend to be tough survivors. Most have at least 11-12 Forces, and many have Words. And, of course, they're quite good at going unnoticed... Mariel's former servants are most commonly found serving Death, Nightmares, Secrets, Fate or the Game; at least one of her Barons has regained that rank (the Demon of Coverups, who now works for Asmodeus). All of her attunements and distinctions may still occasionally be encountered, and there are probably at least a couple more that are not recorded here (or anywhere else). There is still a certain lingering camaraderie among former servants of Oblivion. Like Uriel's Tsayadim, they still consider themselves a corps d'elite, and can occasionally wax nostalgic about the bad old days. It would be very unwise to rely on this sentiment affecting their behavior, of course. And the rumors about secret reunions must be considered unlikely at best. Dissonance Demons of Oblivion were charged with destroying records, subverting memories, and in general trying to break up the continuity of consciousness. It was dissonant for these demons to make or keep a record of any sort, or to help anyone else record or recall anything. Band Attunements Balseraphs -- Balseraphs of Oblivion add their Ethereal Forces to their resonance roll when trying to make someone either forget or ignore something. Most of them have found work as Hell's "Men in Black", helping to keep the great secret of the War. Djinn -- These Djinn know the location of all records pertaining to their attuned, and are aware whenever new records are made. Calabim -- These Calabim can use their resonance to destroy information. On a successful reference roll, they can wipe words out of books or figures from a painting... without otherwise disturbing or damaging the rest of the item, if they so choose. Habbalah -- Mariel's Habbalah can, with a successful resonance roll, inflict Mariel's world-view upon their victims -- that is, convince them that the entire world is a disgusting, horrible abortion that should never have been. The effects of this will vary depending on the victim; some will become suicidal, others violently destructive, while some may merely become deeply cynical. In any event, Habbalah using this attunement get no backlash except on an Intervention. Lilim -- Lilim of Oblivion can Geas their victims to forget things. Furthermore, they always know at once if there is something that the victim *needs* to forget. Shedim -- By expending Essence and winning a contest of Wills, Mariel's Shedim can wipe memories from their hosts. The Essence cost depends on the importance of the memory to the host, from 1 for relatively minor memories to 6 for things like the ability to read or the host's own name. The Shedite can do this once per victim per day. When the Shedite leaves, the host gets a Will roll for each memory, with a bonus equal to the Shedite's Essence cost; if he fails, the memory is permanently wiped and gone forever. Impudites -- An Impudite of Oblivion can convince his Charmed victims not to pay attention to something that they otherwise would. If the victim is being forced to ignore something *very* important (skipping a crucial meeting, letting a small child wander off unattended), he gets a Will roll to resist, but making the roll does not break the charm -- it just means the victim won't ignore this particular situation. Servitor Attunements Fade -- Once per day, for a period of 10 minutes, this attunement allows the demon to become forgettable. People will tend not to notice him (-3 on all perception rolls), he will leave no clues or traces, and any record made of him will get lost or disappear. Focus -- The demon can cause someone to focus obsessively on something, to the point of becoming dangerously oblivious to everything else. The demon must touch and speak to the victim, and spend 3 Essence; a Will roll can be made to resist. If it fails, the Focused person will ignore everything around him or her to concentrate absolutely on a single task (which he will perform at +1 to his skill level, for what that's worth) for hours equal to the check digit. Direct attacks on the victim will give him another Will roll to snap out of it. [Tip of the hat to Vernor Vinge, and if you haven't read _A Deepness in the Sky_, let me recommend it.] Distinctions Knight of Oblivion-- A Knight can, with a touch and the expenditure of 1 essence, cause a victim to forget the last thing that the Knight said or did. Victims get a Will roll to resist. Captain of Expunction -- With a few minutes of conversation, Mariel's Captains can cause a victim to forget or ignore any one thing or person that is not immediately present. The memories are not erased, but the victim will not think of that person or thing until it is forced upon their attention again. Baron of the Silence of the Symphony -- When a Baron disturbs the Symphony, he makes the normal amount of noise, but anyone who perceives it must make a successful Will roll and then react to the disturbance immediately. Otherwise, they get distracted and forget about the disturbance, no matter how large it may have been. Relations Mariel's rampant nihilism made her unpopular with her fellow Princes; she had no allies at all (which made her that much more attractive a target, of course). Malphas admired the starkness of her world-view, while Asmodeus and Beleth both seem to have felt a certain chilly respect for her, but most of Hell's Superiors disliked her, and the more "worldly" ones (and her former Servitors) hated her outright. In retrospect, it's surprising that she lasted as long as she did. Allied: None Associated: Malphas Neutral: Asmodeus, Beleth Hostile: Everyone else, except for Enemy: Andrealphus, Kobal, Saminga, Haagenti (briefly) Basic rites: - -- Destroy the last existing copy of a book (up to +3 if the book was widely read) - -- Thoroughly destroy a work of art that took at least 100 hours to create - -- Distract someone from something important that s/he really should be attending to Invocation chance: 0 Invocation modifiers +1 Destroying a book or other written record +2 Someone in a deep, dreamless sleep +3 Someone in a coma +4 A true and complete amnesiac +5 The ruins of a library, destroyed within the last hour +6 The ruins of a city that has been completely lost to history * * * * * So, there she is. Thoughts? ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1585 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.