From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 18 15:10:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00402 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:10:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA27263 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:09:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:09:15 -0500 Message-Id: <200004182009.PAA27263@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1586 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1586 In this digest: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion IN> Re: Corporeal Song of Shields Re: IN> Re: Corporeal Song of Shields Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feelofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feelofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feelofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) IN> INS/MV-l Re: IN> INS/MV-l Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: IN> INS/MV-l Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: IN> INS/MV-l Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:23:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Douglas Muir wrote: This was a GREAT writeup! Makes me pine for a Lost Superiors book... writeups of Uriel, Oannes, Vephar, Mariel, Meserach... Two points: > no less than three of today's > Princes (Alaemon, Haagenti, and Saminga) were Servitors of Oblivion at > least briefly. I thought Haagenti served Meserach, not Mariel... > * Destroy the last copy of a book That's a pretty hard one, actually... I'd give it +2 Essence, +3 for a book that was a Best Seller. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "Anything sounds profound if you put it in quotation marks and sign it Anonymous." -- Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:42:16 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion At 12:11 AM -0400 4/18/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >no less than three of today's >Princes (Alaemon, Haagenti, and Saminga) were Servitors of Oblivion at >least briefly. Alaemon didn't Fall before at least 1100 AD. Mariel was consumed by Haagenti in 1009 AD. Other than that, I enjoyed this. (On the other hand, Alaemon's Servitors might well spread rumors that he was a Servitor of Oblivion. Or, the "accepted time" of Alaemon's Fall might be more disinformation. Or.... Sorry. I'm obsessed.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:05:48 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion "Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > > * Destroy the last copy of a book > > That's a pretty hard one, actually... Not before Guttenberg, whom Mariel certainly predates. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:05:48 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion "Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > > * Destroy the last copy of a book > > That's a pretty hard one, actually... Not before Guttenberg, whom Mariel certainly predates. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:13:47 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion >Alaemon didn't Fall before at least 1100 AD. Mariel was consumed by >Haagenti in 1009 AD. When dealing with these two Superiors, we should _not_ assume that our records are either complete or accurate. And it's canon that there's something funny about Alaemon's history. "There's more to it than that, but Alaemon isn't telling." >This was a GREAT writeup! [doffs hat, bows deeply] >Makes me pine for a Lost Superiors book... >writeups of Uriel, Oannes, Vephar, Mariel, Meserach... According to our beloved Line Editor, it's out there... in the distance, someday. (Though I'm not sure if it's a single book of Lost Superiors, or inclusion of some of them in later books in the Superiors lineup. Elizabeth?) >I thought Haagenti served Meserach, not Mariel... I take the position that he served her briefly, at least long enough to build up a grudge. True, it's impossible to confirm this, but that's only because the records seem to have gotten lost somehow... >> * Destroy the last copy of a book > >That's a pretty hard one, actually... I'd give it +2 Essence, +3 for a >book that was a Best Seller. But remember that Mariel was destroyed before printing got going; it was a lot easier to hunt down all copies of a book back then. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:19:26 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion At 12:05 AM -0500 4/18/00, David Edelstein wrote: >"Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > > > * Destroy the last copy of a book > > > > That's a pretty hard one, actually... > >Not before Guttenberg, whom Mariel certainly predates. Mm. Is there anything about the Library of Alexandria in Canon right now? I'd think that would be the great triumph for Mariel, whether she was directly responsible for it or not. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:31:22 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion >Mm. Is there anything about the Library of Alexandria in Canon right >now? I'd think that would be the great triumph for Mariel, whether >she was directly responsible for it or not. Belial probably claims credit; it's canon that he was present when it burned (_Marches_, pg. 49). But one suspects that Mariel was the one who set it up. "If these works agree with the Koran, they are unnecessary; if they disagree, they are blasphemous." A _very_ Habbalite sort of sentiment, don't you think? I'd suspect her hand behind the loss to history of ten of the twelve tribes of Israel, too. And there have long been rumors about lost teachings of Jesus... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:23:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Song of Shields: Corporeal is a must-have for all Soldiers and Celestials with Roles as firefighters... Collapsing buildings... Smoke is particulate, and won't pass through... Fire is plasma; ditto. Any holes in this idea? O. ===== ** Humanity's strongest impulse is the desire to edit other people's writing. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:25:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) At the risk of copyright infringement, could someone quote the salient passages from the rules? How does Song of Shields: Corporeal read in the Canticorum? Might clear up a bit of confusion 'round here, Bruce... O. ===== ** Humanity's strongest impulse is the desire to edit other people's writing. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:26:55 -0400 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion From: "Douglas Muir" > I'd suspect her hand behind the loss to history of ten of the twelve tribes > of Israel, too. And there have long been rumors about lost teachings of > Jesus... Perhaps the colony at Roanoke? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:28:09 -0400 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Re: My Roanoke comment Yes, I just figured out that this is well and truly after Mariel went away. (Gotta think first, next time...) But my it could be the handiwork of an ambitious Servitor... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:37:40 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion At 2:26 AM -0400 4/18/00, Gregory Gietzen wrote: >From: "Douglas Muir" > > > I'd suspect her hand behind the loss to history of ten of the twelve >tribes > > of Israel, too. And there have long been rumors about lost teachings of > > Jesus... > >Perhaps the colony at Roanoke? Way too late for Mariel. But it has Alaemon *all* over it. Or not. Hard to say, really... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:03:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion > MARIEL > Demon Princess of Oblivion > > * * * * * > > So, there she is. Thoughts? One step closer to the ultimate goal: IN Heresy. Excellent write-up. Are you submitting it to SJG? If not, is it going to be online somewhere? O. ===== ** Humanity's strongest impulse is the desire to edit other people's writing. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:39:26 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Re: Corporeal Song of Shields EDG wrote: <<< Anything inside the Shield can't get hurt by anything outside the Shield, and vice versa; but I don't think it's canon that the /Shield/ doesn't hurt anything. >>> My english must be failing me down on this one, because it doesn't make any sense to me. <<< One would think that an object running into the proverbial Immovable Object at full speed would cause serious problems to that object's structural integrity. I feel sorry for any fire hydrants caught inside the Shield... >>> So if the car (protected by the Shield) drives into a wall at the speed of 80 mph, it will just drop to 0 mph in less than a second, not hurting the front of the car, but crushing everything and everyone inside? Would it be the same if some crazy celestial decides to jump off a plane using a Corporeal Shield as a parachute? Once he "lands", the outside of his body is intact, but all the organs inside are completely desintegrated? <<< your character wouldn't be able to hear the screams of the people who he's running over with his Sphere of Death. ;) >>> The Corporeal Song of Shields a sphere of death??? Okay, after some thinking about it, here's how I'd probably do it. If the car hits something heavier (or approx the same weight), then it just stops and no damage is taken, neither by the car or the other object. If the car hits something significantly lighter (e.g. a pedestrian), then the pedestrian is hit as normal, flies above the car, but gets up unexplicably unhurt. The only detail that really disturbs me is the story about the intergrity inside the sphere. I mean is everybody crushed inside the car if it stops, and is the crazy free-falling celestial desintegrated when he lands? If not, it would be a great rite for Janus... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:57:18 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Corporeal Song of Shields I wrote: <<< My english must be failing me down on this one >>> I meant "failing me on this one". Isn't that ironic? Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:08:34 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel of the Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) David Edelstein wrote: [snip] > One more time -- it's not physics, IT'S A MIRACLE! Go with what's > cinematic and nifty. At this point, I should mention an incident that happened last Saturday in an In Nomine session I was running. One of the PCs (they were all human in this game) triggered a song of Shields just as he was about to be eaten by a killer whale. The whale's jaws clamped shut - on what was, effectively, an entirely transaparent zorb. (http://www.zorb.com/ if you don't get the reference - they are, effectively, big transparent bouncy things you can roll down hills inside.) Confused, it surfaced and threw the Shield out, where it flew through the air and bounced, once. At the same time, another PC was falling through the air after having been dropped by a giant eagle (don't ask). I reckoned his only way of surviving the fall was to land *on* the (spinning) Shield. Which he did. He managed to cling on, too. His hopes of survival then shifted to the guy inside the Shield being able to steer it well enough that it didn't bounce guy-side down... Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 May 1988 14:20:01 -0500 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion - -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Muir To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 12:38 AM Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion > >>Mm. Is there anything about the Library of Alexandria in Canon right >>now? I'd think that would be the great triumph for Mariel, whether >>she was directly responsible for it or not. > >Belial probably claims credit; it's canon that he was present when it >burned (_Marches_, pg. 49). > >But one suspects that Mariel was the one who set it up. "If these works >agree with the Koran, they are unnecessary; if they disagree, they are >blasphemous." A _very_ Habbalite sort of sentiment, don't you think? I'd have to go back and check my sources to be absolutely certain, but I'm pretty sure that the Library being burned by Muslims was a bit of medieval Christian propaganda. In fact, I think the event predates Mohammad. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:27:56 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Eeyore wrote: > I'd have to go back and check my sources to be absolutely certain, but I'm> pretty sure that the Library being burned by Muslims was a bit of medieval> Christian propaganda. In fact, I think the event predates Mohammad. The FIRST time it was burned, yes. The Library was burned at least three times, IIRC, and one of them was by Muslims. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:25:20 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Douglas Muir wrote: > >Mm. Is there anything about the Library of Alexandria in Canon > >right now? I'd think that would be the great triumph for Mariel, > >whether she was directly responsible for it or not. > > Belial probably claims credit; it's canon that he was present > when it burned (_Marches_, pg. 49). Belial can have the burning, but the Library actually moldered away over a long time. Cleopatra gave away lots of its books as a present to Julius Caesar, for one thing. Then it suffered from sheer neglect for decades or centuries, in addition to whatever actual vandalism it suffered at the hands of various fanatics of various religions. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:48:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christian writers applicable to IN Another author for this thread is Madeline L'Engle. Her best-known work is "A Wrinkle in Time," which has introduced thousands of kids to the concepts of higher dimensions and warped spacetime, under the name of "tesseract," and also includes three very inventive angelic characters, plus a ripe-for-Armageddon Earth-like planet. There are five or six sequels to "A Wrinkle in Time," all centering on characters from the same family, all with spiritual subjects, certainly "Abrahamic," though not usually specifically Christian. "A Wind in the Door" is the next one, I think, in which we meet a very Kyriotate-like young angel called "a cherubim." ("But cherubim is a plural." "Well, I'm plural, aren't I?" And it is.) "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" involves time-travel and telepathy. "Many Waters" takes two characters back to the time immediately before Noah's Flood, where we meet fallen angels and their offspring, unfallen angels, and some interesting antedeluvians. She has also written a long series about a more mundane family, the Austins, who could be good Soldier role models, living on the fringes of the War and, about once a book, encountering something ambiguously supernatural. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:57:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion > I'd suspect her hand behind the loss to history of ten of the twelve > tribes of Israel, too. And there have long been rumors about lost > teachings of Jesus... There was a really good documentary on A&E about the lost tribes called "Quest for the Lost Tribes". The person who made the documentary claims to have found nine of the ten tribes in India, China, Ubekistan, and Pakistan. It was quite interesting. A&E will be re-running it, they tend to do that, and the video is also for sale on their website. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:00:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion > Perhaps the colony at Roanoke? Actualy the citizens of Roankoke were force marched by Native Americans to Kentucky where they were executed. That's why many Native American's during colonial times stayed away from Kentucky, it was haunted. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:08:19 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion At 8:00 AM -0700 4/18/00, Guy Royse wrote: > > Perhaps the colony at Roanoke? > >Actualy the citizens of Roankoke were force marched by Native Americans >to Kentucky where they were executed. That's why many Native >American's during colonial times stayed away from Kentucky, it was haunted. Eh? I've heard a lot about the mystery of Roanoke, and the different theories of what Croatan was, but I haven't heard that one before. Do you know where I could Read More About It? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:23:07 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion > Return-Path: in-sabre@annotations.com > At 8:00 AM -0700 4/18/00, Guy Royse wrote: > > > Perhaps the colony at Roanoke? > >Actualy the citizens of Roankoke were force marched by Native Americans > >to Kentucky where they were executed. That's why many Native > >American's during colonial times stayed away from Kentucky, it was haunted. > Eh? > > I've heard a lot about the mystery of Roanoke, and the different > theories of what Croatan was, but I haven't heard that one before. Do > you know where I could Read More About It? Someone was channeling Kobal. Or maybe the Demons of Satire and Sarcasm. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:42:46 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Guy Royse wrote: > Actualy the citizens of Roankoke were force marched by Native Americans > to Kentucky where they were executed. That's why many Native > American's during colonial times stayed away from Kentucky, it was haunted. Where did you get this? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:41:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion Guy Royse wrote: > There was a really good documentary on A&E about the lost tribes > called "Quest for the Lost Tribes". The person who made the > documentary claims to have found nine of the ten tribes in India, > China, Ubekistan, and Pakistan. It was quite interesting. A&E > will be re-running it, they tend to do that, and the video is > also for sale on their website. *snicker* Did they mention the British Israelite movement, which avows that Anglo-Saxons are the TRUE Ten Lost Tribes, or the Mormon doctrine that American Indians are the Ten Lost Tribes? The Ten Lost Tribes have been located in about as many places as Atlantis. The dull and conventional answer is that the Ten Lost Tribes were simply assimilated into the surrounding nations, except for one group, still alive today, the Samaritans. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:34:59 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) At 16:10 -0400 4/17/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: >> Most of these problems (and others) have arisen with the GURPS spell >> "Force Dome". I'd suggest using the FAQ answers on that, and/or stealing >> the Force Dome text a little, to resolve these problems in IN. > >I strongly suggest NOT doing that. GURPS Magic is designed to operate in >a more or less "logical" fashion, generally obeying the laws of physics >except that it's, well, magic. It fits the style of GURPS. In Nomine, >however, is about miraculous beings and miraculous powers. Instead of magic, which is clearly bound by physical laws...? I see no fundamental difference, except maybe in the degree of detail the audience demands. My point was that pretty much all the questions that will arise about Shields have already come up for Force Dome in GURPS. And I see no reason to simply ignore a well-playtested, similar effect in another game, just because the superficial trappings are different. I suppose it's OK to officially answer "what happens if..." questions in IN with "we don't know, and we're not going to tell you, so make something up". Some people will like that, others won't. This is always a sticky point in game design -- where to define things with rules, vs. where to leave things up to GMs. No point on this spectrum will satisfy everyone. Frankly, it makes more sense to me to have something here as a set of guidelines, so GMs don't dig themselves into pits with their rulings, especially with an easily-perverted Song that includes "absolute" effects like Corp. Shields does. Trying to answer these questions "on the fly" in a game leaves the GM with potential problems in the future, or with consistency issues. And you can't just sweep consistency problems under the "it's a miracle" rug - -- players won't stand for more than a little of that. Songs are supposed to be *well-understood, repeatable* miracles, unlike, say, Interventions, or even Superior powers. To be fair to his players, the GM needs to keep the effects and side-effects fairly consistent from one use to the next. I don't say the Force Dome-cribbed stuff should be in the actual Song text, just maybe part of the FAQ. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:43:28 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion At 1:13 -0400 4/18/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >>Makes me pine for a Lost Superiors book... >>writeups of Uriel, Oannes, Vephar, Mariel, Meserach... > >According to our beloved Line Editor, it's out there... in the distance, >someday. > >(Though I'm not sure if it's a single book of Lost Superiors, or inclusion >of some of them in later books in the Superiors lineup. Elizabeth?) At one point, there was talk about a possible "In Nomine - Historical", with past-time settings and historical takes on Superiors (and those who would become Superiors); this would probably have had to deal with the deceased major Superiors. A "Lost Superiors" supplement would make the most sense as an adjunct to a core book on historical campaigns, I think. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:51:37 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feelofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) Walter Milliken wrote: > Instead of magic, which is clearly bound by physical laws...? Yes, instead of magic, which is clearly bound by physical laws _in GURPS_, in which the magic paradigm basically posits magic as a sort of "supranatural" force that can bend the rules a little, but still functions within the laws of physics. In In Nomine (as in religion), miracles are truly supernatural events that operate however Higher Powers want them to operate, physics be damned. > My point was that pretty much all the questions that will arise about > Shields have already come up for Force Dome in GURPS. And I see no reason > to simply ignore a well-playtested, similar effect in another game, just > because the superficial trappings are different. Because they're different games. Go ahead and GURPSify In Nomine, instead of being content to just write a GURPS translation, and put another nail in its coffin. > I suppose it's OK to officially answer "what happens if..." questions in IN > with "we don't know, and we're not going to tell you, so make something up". Funny, I didn't see anyone say that, ever. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:59:43 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) At 12:34 PM -0400 4/18/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 16:10 -0400 4/17/00, David Edelstein wrote: > >Walter Milliken wrote: > >> Most of these problems (and others) have arisen with the GURPS spell > >> "Force Dome". I'd suggest using the FAQ answers on that, and/or stealing > >> the Force Dome text a little, to resolve these problems in IN. > > > >I strongly suggest NOT doing that. GURPS Magic is designed to operate in > >a more or less "logical" fashion, generally obeying the laws of physics > >except that it's, well, magic. It fits the style of GURPS. In Nomine, > >however, is about miraculous beings and miraculous powers. > >Instead of magic, which is clearly bound by physical laws...? I see no >fundamental difference, except maybe in the degree of detail the audience >demands. Hm. I do, and here's why: Force Dome is a spell, cast in GURPS in a way that uses the Mana of an area to a predefined effect. Now, I suppose someone could redefine that spell effect as "divine favor" or "a God's Power" for a given Mage's spell. GURPS is flexible that way. The Corporeal Song of Shields is a miracle, Sung out of the Symphony, given down by God. Whether an Angel, a Demon or a Human sings it, it is coming from The Ineffable and given corporeal, innately miraculous form. It says "harm will not pass betwixt this barrier, now and forevermore, until this Song be done." The philosophical difference between the two is profound, really. One is an effect produced by a spell formula. The other is a benison granted by an almighty presence, a touch of mythology. This is why there's such a driving point made, in book after book, that there is no Magic in In Nomine. Songs come from the Ineffable, portions of the Symphony that can affect other portions of the Symphony. But they're explicitly *not* spells because they're miraculous, and one might even say unpredictable. I define Song effects absolutely based on the scene, using the intent of the description and the roll (and CD) to define how the Miracle takes place. It doesn't necessarily happen the same way every time. So, the FAQ for GURPS Magic wouldn't help me much, because Force Dome is a dome of force, but the Corporeal Song of Shields is a fluid miracle. IMC, at least. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:22:20 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feelofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) >From: David Edelstein > >Walter Milliken wrote: > > Instead of magic, which is clearly bound by physical laws...? > >Yes, instead of magic, which is clearly bound by physical laws _in >GURPS_, in which the magic paradigm basically posits magic as a sort of >"supranatural" force that can bend the rules a little, but still >functions within the laws of physics. In In Nomine (as in religion), >miracles are truly supernatural events that operate however Higher >Powers want them to operate, physics be damned. I agree with David. Songs aren't spells, the genre 'laws' under which they operate aren't necessarily the same. A lot of the effects-bending that makes magic fun in Ars Magica (frex) won't necessarily work here. In fact, I think it's quite important to bear that in mind, to keep the general angel/demon flavour intact. Pointing people at FAQs for GURPS spells isn't necessarily a great idea, it's more important to keep the 'feel' of IN where possible. That's one of it's plus points IMO. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:42:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feelofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) It sounds like the difference between Songs and spells, in appearance, is that Songs are much less subject to the Law of Unintended Consequences. A spell has a mechanical property to it -- it's pseudo-technology, with the same blindness as technology. Spells are even famous for this, as in the numerous tales of wishes going sour, or the magic mill that fills the sea with salt, or the broom of "The Sorceror's Apprentice." A Song is much more "sensitive" or "intelligent." It does what you mean, not what you say. It doesn't deliver the kind of humor or horror you get from spells run amok. It won't run amok. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:47:32 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> INS/MV-l Hey, all, I'm wondering if anyone here has any leads for an ins/mv mailing list (en francais, bien sur), and/or if they have a main-web site like SJGames dones. Thanks, - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever. - --Chinese proverb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:08:23 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV-l - -----Original Message----- From: Perry Lloyd Subject: IN> INS/MV-l >Hey, all, >I'm wondering if anyone here has any leads for an ins/mv mailing list (en >francais, bien sur), and/or if they have a main-web site like SJGames dones. Check out the main Siroz website at http://www.siroz.com/ -- there's a page about INS/MV, a question/answer section, and there may be more links. There's also a brand new supplement out which I've just got and read, _New World Order_. It's a niiiiiice campaign. Insane angels of Yves, books of Angelic Names, sorcerers, pentagrams and human sacrifices, a Europe-wide pentagram, Blandine accused of paedophilia, Malphas at work, a great plan to bar Earth to both Heaven and Hell . . . Genevieve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:24:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) > I don't say the Force Dome-cribbed stuff should be in the actual Song text, > just maybe part of the FAQ. > Actually, out of sheer politeness for those of us who play In Nomine and have little to no interest in GURPS, that being GURPS Magic, GURPS Effects, GURPS Cars, GURPS Vegetables, GURPS Iron Chef, or even GURPS Fashion Sense, I would prefer to never see _any_ GURPS references in the In Nomine FAQ, ever. This game is called In Nomine. It is not called GURPS Angels and Demons. It does not use the GURPS rules. The only connection it has with GURPS is that it happens to be made by the same company. It's extremely unfair to those who do not play GURPS to start detailing answers to In Nomine questions in GURPS terms. Remember: more people read that FAQ than are represented on this mailing list. If people want to go play GURPS, that's fine. Go for it. But let's remember that the game is actually In Nomine, it uses the In Nomine core rules from the core rule book, and is played by In Nomine fans. Remember the customer, and that the customer is here to buy one game and not the other. Thanks. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Emily K. Dresner -- Writer, Musician, Hacker, Maniac Client Code Monkey, SelectPlay -- http://www.selectplay.com/ Mook, Guardians of Order, BESM -- http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca/ Pyramid Columnist, "Women in Gaming" -- http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/ Freelancer, In Nomine -- http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:22:46 -0400 From: Mason Kramer Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) > From: Whistling in the Dark >> At 16:10 -0400 4/17/00, David Edelstein wrote: >> Instead of magic, which is clearly bound by physical laws...? I see no >> fundamental difference, except maybe in the degree of detail the audience >> demands. > The philosophical difference between the two [Force Dome and CSoS] is > profound, really. One is an effect produced by a spell formula. The other is > a benison granted by an almighty presence, a touch of mythology. > This becomes even *more* important in a campaign that combines IN and Magic, like a (still hypothetical at this point) IN/Technomancer campaign. Spells are formulas which, when acted upon, operate in the same way every time. Magic is somewhat like science, cause and effect. But Songs... songs are fluid parts of the Symphony, which *generally* work the way one would expect, but do *not* follow natural laws. The separation becomes important, the difference between magical and miracle noticeable in feel and in mechanics. > So, the FAQ for GURPS Magic wouldn't help me much, because Force Dome > is a dome of force, but the Corporeal Song of Shields is a fluid > miracle. IMC, at least. It would in my campaign--for Force Dome. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:24:12 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV-l At 7:08 PM +0100 4/18/00, Genevieve Cogman wrote: > >Check out the main Siroz website at http://www.siroz.com/ -- there's a page >about INS/MV, a question/answer section, and there may be more links. >There's also a brand new supplement out which I've just got and read, _New >World Order_. It's a niiiiiice campaign. Insane angels of Yves, books of >Angelic Names, sorcerers, pentagrams and human sacrifices, a Europe-wide >pentagram, Blandine accused of paedophilia, Malphas at work, a great plan to >bar Earth to both Heaven and Hell . . . Not to mention professional wrestlers as far as the eye can see! - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:31:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feel ofthe Ofanite, with a good backbeat...) For a nice literary treatment of the difference between magic and miracle, and between different kinds of magic, see "The Magician's Nephew," one of the Narnia books by C.S. Lewis. It's the 6th in order of publication, but the first in "historical" order, presenting the creation of Narnia. In it, we see Aslan do miracles, Jadis (the future witch of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe") doing magic off the cuff, and the magician of the title doing magic by laborious fiddling. The narrator, and even the characters, comment on the differences. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:35:42 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV-l > Return-Path: in-sabre@annotations.com > At 7:08 PM +0100 4/18/00, Genevieve Cogman wrote: > >Check out the main Siroz website at http://www.siroz.com/ -- there's a page > >about INS/MV, a question/answer section, and there may be more links. > >There's also a brand new supplement out which I've just got and read, _New > >World Order_. It's a niiiiiice campaign. Insane angels of Yves, books of > >Angelic Names, sorcerers, pentagrams and human sacrifices, a Europe-wide > >pentagram, Blandine accused of paedophilia, Malphas at work, a great plan to > >bar Earth to both Heaven and Hell . . . Stop that. This is making me want to learn french. Gah! (OTOH, I am impressing myself with how much I can comprehend without knowing the language...) > Not to mention professional wrestlers as far as the eye can see! Doh! > Habbalite of Belaboring the Point Are you sure you're not Balseraph of Painfully Bad Jokes? =) - -galen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:08:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Demon Princess of Oblivion - --- David Edelstein wrote: > Guy Royse wrote: > > Actualy the citizens of Roankoke were force marched by Native > > Americans to Kentucky where they were executed. That's why many > > Native American's during colonial times stayed away from Kentucky, > > it was haunted. > > Where did you get this? A good friend of mine has a history degree from Ohio University. He was telling me about it. It was presented to me as fact but it could be a theory. Since there weren't any video cameras back then I doubt that there will ever be a definative answer, but it was certainly interestig non-the-less. I will get the sources from him and post it to the list. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1586 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.