From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Apr 23 01:59:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA30771 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:59:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id BAA12334 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:57:28 -0500 Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:57:28 -0500 Message-Id: <200004230657.BAA12334@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1590 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, April 23 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1590 In this digest: Fwd: Re: IN> Dragoncon Question and More from the Tabloids Fwd2: Re: IN> Dragoncon Question and More from the Tabloids Re: IN> Re: Introducing myself Re: IN> Core Book out of print? IN> Re: The Dirt on Eli (WAS: Tabloid Adventure Seed) Re: IN> Horrors of the Z'Bri Re: IN> Re: The Dirt on Eli (WAS: Tabloid Adventure Seed) Re: IN> Re: The Dirt on Eli (WAS: Tabloid Adventure Seed) IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith IN> Yet another Eli plot seed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 00:39:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Dragoncon Question and More from the Tabloids >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [John Maurer ] >Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:11:48 -0400 >From: John Maurer >Subject: Re: IN> Dragoncon Question and More from the Tabloids > >Jennifer Campbell wrote: > >> Oh. And is anybody going to be at Dragoncon this year? My friends and I are >> piling up in a car and driving from Arkansas to Georgia riding laps and not >> stopping at every Wal-Mart, as I am wont to do. . .Let us know and we'll >> hook up for some partying or something! I'm getting all renned out for the >> costume masquerade. Wench In Training! > >My wife and I attend every Dragon*Con as that is where we met. > >I have a 1-shot Teaser In Nomine that I use to generate interest. Perhaps I >could run that if we had enough list people there. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 00:40:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd2: Re: IN> Dragoncon Question and More from the Tabloids >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Morgan Bluejeans" ] > >From: "Morgan Bluejeans" >Subject: Re: IN> Dragoncon Question and More from the Tabloids >Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:57:29 PDT > >>All I know is, Ferro Lad can't possibly survive the attack. Man, now >>*there's* your Destiny achieved. > >All *I* know is I can't decide whether I feel sorrier for you for thinking >that, or sorrier for me because I *instinctively* parsed it, moved on, got >three pieces of mail deeper into my mail box, and *then* went back and >re-read it and even flashed back to the panel art on it. > >Yee-gads. > > >BDP >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 00:44:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Introducing myself At 9:33 AM -0500 4/20/00, Andrew Hackard wrote: >MdnghtWind wrote: >>I'm proposing that replies to Andrew >> >>"Hi, Andrew" > >Hi VK! > >>be posted to the list. I'm interested in >>what people will say. Otherwise, if you can remember, just e-mail it to me. > >I certainly have NO objections if people want to post their replies to the >list(s); I'm subscribed to all of them and I'll read the replies no matter >where they are. I just didn't want to take a chance on flooding the lists >with possibly irrelevant traffic. Which is a very good thing for _this_ list, the In Nomine one... Indeed, perhaps people could avoid including the IN list for non-IN list chatter? Please? Thanks. - --Beth, IN Line Editor and beleagured (see .sig below) IN list admin. - --Beth, catching up as she can, while both moving out of the condo and recovering from Iolanthe's little bout with choking and turning blue and passing out, and a nice little stay overnight in the hosptial. (She's fine; it was apparently a Ringer's or Rindlger's or something spasm.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:27:08 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Core Book out of print? >From: Andrew Hackard >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Core Book out of print? >Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:51:26 -0500 > > >I was just browsing around the SJG web site, and I noticed that it >declares > >the IN main book out of print. Anyone know what's up? > >Yes; there aren't any copies in our warehouse. :-) > Ooooh. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:53:20 EDT From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: IN> Re: The Dirt on Eli (WAS: Tabloid Adventure Seed) >From: "Tafka J." > > 'K. Spill. I wanna know what evil thing you had planned for poor Eli. >. . Okay. It's actually two ideas merged into one; it's possible to have the first without the second, but much harder to have the second without the first. Parte the Firste requires a mild change to canon, as it posits that Eli went walkabout at the beginning of the century, rather in the 1950s. Parte the Seconde requires knowledge of Christian eschatology. Parte the First: The Devil Box Everyone knows that Nybbas helped develop the television in 1884, which subsequently earned him his Word and Princedom. What everyone doesn't know is how he managed to gain the massive amounts of power needed to make him a major Demon prince in under a century. The answer is simple: he stole forces from Eli. Using a variation on Vapula's Ray Gun, he lured the Archangel of Creation to the unveiling of the first Television, and stripped huge amounts of Ethereal Forces from Eli and subsumed them into himself. In many ways, the Media is Anti-Creation. It crushes new ideas and endlessly recycles tripe into pablum for the masses. the only new things about are the increasingly inventive ways it invades our lives, steals our free time, and convinces us to give it our adulation. This also explains why Eli's been so damn loopy. Nybbas ate his brain. It's only recently that he's starting to become aware of what happened to him. Nybbas, of course, is worried that when Eli figures out what happened, his ass will be in the proverbial sling. So he keeps Eli under tight surveillance, subjecting him to periodic exposures of Media brainwashing. In my game, this was reflected in Eli's complete ignorance of all things pertaining to Television and Movies, and the attention span of a hyperactive 6 year old. [Individual GMs may season to taste. If interested, I'll tell you what happened in my campaign, but that's very specific to my game so I won't bore you with gaming war stories. I seem to recall it being stated that folks don't like hearing play-by-plays of other people's campaigns.] Parte the Seconde: The Second Beast Okay, everyone take their Bibles and turn to the Book of Revelations, chapter 13, where they talk about the Second Beast: "It had two horns like a lamb but sounded like a dragon when it spoke." Now go look at Nybbas' sigil. The Second Beast uses what seems to be Media trickery, animating the image of the First Beast so that it appears to talk, using special effects to wow the people, etc. It is, effectively, the mouthpiece of the Satan, even getting the people of Earth to consent to that 666 tattoo. This figure, according to some eschatologists, has been identified as the Antichrist. So if Nybbas is the Antichrist, and Media is Anti-Creation...then Eli is Christ? Yes. But not the way you're thinking. If you were to go back in time 2000 years and ask the Jews who the messiah would be, they would probably reply that he'd be some conquering king who would kick the Roman oppressors out of the Holy Land and usher in a new golden age for Isreal. Who they got (that is, if you're a Christian like I am) is someone who said "Salvation isn't just for the Jews, it's for Gentiles too. It's for everyone if they want it." So the expected messiah, and the one they got, were two different things. Same thing for the Book of Revelations. We're looking at it from a limited perspective. So when the Second Coming occurs, who benefits? The Jews have God's Covenant; they're the chosen people, so they don't need a spiritual messiah. Jesus came for the Gentiles, so they don't need one either. (I'm deliberately not touching Islam because I don't know much about it, but I would assume anyone who's said the Shehada is saved as well.) So between the Jews and the Gentiles, which is anbother way of saying "those of one ethnic group and then everyone else in the entire world", who's left to save? Simple: the demons. Yes, Eli is the -Angelic- Messiah, whose purpose is to save those demons who either rebelled in the Beginning and now maybe have second thoughts, or for those who were born in Hell and never really had a chance to redeem. Yep, Eli is the savior of demons. Those who believe in him are redeemed, and those who don't....well, those get handed over to Dominic, or perhaps Uriel, at the Last Judgement. Now I KNOW I'm going to get response from this. Please, no flames. - -- Eric "Casca" Bertish (ericasca@hotmail.com) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:22:33 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Horrors of the Z'Bri From: Jonathan B Lotzer > I recently found a book called 'Horrors of the Z'Bri' from the Tribe 8 > series. >Has anyone looked at this book/series more? > Any suggestions to looking at it as a dark campaign In Nomine > supplement? i've got the main book. it's a nice setting but i've never actually got round to running a game (like half the other games i've got). it's a post-apocalypse thing, where humanity was basically wiped out by the z'bri and put into concentration camps. then mysterious beings called the fatimas appeared and led the humans to freedom. the z'bri were pushed back to the north, but the fatimas then created a new rigid caste-based society made in their own image for in nomine? i dunno, you'd have to bend and twist both a fair bit to make them meet in the middle... maybe you could have it set after armageddon, where the final battle ended in a stalemate with pretty much all the superiors getting wiped out. the z'bri are, obviously, demons. the fatimas could be word-bound angels (or maybe demons...) who have adopted the humans. the fatimas are all archetypes who could translate quite easily into words, there's the Mother, the Warrior, the Judge, the Lover, etc etc. the z'bri could make interesting demons as they are very inhuman. liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:36:13 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Re: The Dirt on Eli (WAS: Tabloid Adventure Seed) >This also explains why Eli's been so damn loopy. Nybbas ate his >brain. This reminds me of an episode of Rocko's modern life, a very odd carton that was (and maybe still is) on Nickolodean. In the episode TVs do literally eat brains. Seems to make sense to me that Nybbas would either have to have Lucifer pump him up real good or pull something like. I forget who, but someone on the list also posited that Valefor probably stole forces from Janus. Damned lazy ass demons, can't they get their own friggin forces? About the Eli Christ, Nybbas Anti-Christ thing. I think a show down between Eli and Nybbas for the souls of celestials would be interesting. However in your campeign was it canon that human souls were already saved, simply by virtue of Jesus having been crucified? Let me open that up to a general question, how does salvation work in other peoples campeigns. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:57:13 EDT From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Re: The Dirt on Eli (WAS: Tabloid Adventure Seed) >From: Tim Groth > >About the Eli Christ, Nybbas Anti-Christ thing. I think a show down >between Eli and Nybbas for the souls of celestials would be interesting. Ayup. It's the centerpiece of my campaign, which I am slowly building towards. >However in your campeign was it canon that human souls were already >saved, >simply by virtue of Jesus having been crucified? Let me open >that up to a >general question, how does salvation work in other >peoples campeigns. Oy. You ask a difficult question. But incredibly appropriate, since this is Easter. Okay, let me first preface this by saying "This is what I believe." It's not my intent to preach, but to answer a question, and I'm not saying anyone else's faith is wrong. So if you take it the wrong way, you're too dang sensitive. Hookay...are human souls immediately saved because of the crucifixion? No. Conscious choice has to factor in. It was the crucifixion (and subsequent resurrection) that made such a choice possible. If you choose not to believe in God, well, when you end up in Hell it's your own fault. The Eli-as-Christ motif simply extends that choice to the demons, offering them forgiveness and salvation where they thought none had previously existed. (It had, of course; it's called redemption.) Does this answer your questions, or raise more? - -- Eric "Casca" Bertish (ericasca@hotmail.com) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:21:42 -0400 From: Doctor TOC Subject: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith A post in the "Dirt on Eli" thread got me thinking about the whole belief vs faith thing. Belief and Faith seem to be used interchangably a lot, though they appear (at least to me) to be very different things. As I understand it, belief is simply believing that things are a certain way, whereas faith that plus trust. Neither of them require evidence, though obviously belief is bolstered if there is something solid to base it on. Therefore, an angel could believe in God, but might lack faith in Him. Mere belief alone cannot be enough to guarentee salvation, otherwise every fallen angel would already be saved. I used that definition in my homebrew Chill campaign, where one of the characters had been presented with direct evidence of the existence of God, but didn't trust the deity an inch, due to his personal experience of the horrors of the world, and it seemd to work. Obviously, there are differences between that and an In Nomine game. This brings up some intriguing problems with running faith in a game, so I wondered how other GMs handled it. I dislike quantifying things like faith in terms of numbers, since players will naturally tend to attempt to maximise things in their favour, without getting the point of faith, si I've tended to base it on the actions of the character as played. For instance, I gave a positive modifier to the character who was played as attending church regularly, taking time for prayer, behaving in a generally pious fashion and acting as if he genuinely believed the Lord had a plan for him, but did not give one to the character who did none of those things in-game, but whose player stated the character did all "that stuff" between sessions. Is there a better way to do this? Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" - Wu Name: Jive Talkin' Choirboy ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:35:47 EDT From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith >From: Doctor TOC >This brings up some intriguing problems with running faith in a game,so >I wondered how other GMs handled it. I dislike quantifying things like >faith in terms of numbers, since players will naturally tend to attempt >to maximise things in their favour, without getting the point of faith, >si I've tended to base it on the actions of the character as played. I have Faith as a sepcial ability than only humans can have, much like Toughness. It's a Celestial characteristic, and it adds to Will when resisting Demonic Resonance, and adds to Perception when detecting disturbances or seeing Celestial forms. Oh, and it can't be bought. It must be earned through in-game events and proper roleplaying. Yes, there are Dark Faiths out there, but they're scarce. - -- Eric "Casca" Bertish (ericasca@hotmail.com) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:52:20 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Its hard to deal with more ephemeral things (faith/belief for instance) with game mechanics. WW tries to with its Background/Temperment systems, GURPS does it advantages/disadvantages (which all have a 'use it or lose it' policy). IN doesn't really touch it. I think because the IN system is much looser, and less formal than either. It also is a more essential portion of the game world. Its hard to not touch on spiritual issues at all when playing IN, especially in mortal only campeigns. If a character acts, and is described as, faithful then they should receive bonuses. Even if the bonuses out way the cost in time, ridicule or what ever they should have to pay for it. Not only would such a cost be hard to render in the game, but its also really not that neccesary. When you give out a rating it becomes a legalistic mechanism, you have to have it function in certain ways at certain times and the player will expect it to not be that erradict or to simply indicate good things will sometimes happen to them by GM whim. On the other hand if you do want faith to manifest itself as certain benifits then mechanics are useful. WoD True Faith is attributed to the person who has it, the special effects have nothing to do with what their believing in. In IN given that belief can create and sustain ethereals this wouldn't be a wholly inappropriate route to take. Basically I just let better things happen to the faithful, or the darkly faithful, and don't open the mechanics can of worms on the subject. If you play IN with the GURPS system there are lots of advantages that deal with receiving power from above and the like, which would make it easier to work out the mechanics. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:39:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Tim Groth wrote: > > Its hard to deal with more ephemeral things (faith/belief for instance) > with game mechanics. WW tries to with its Background/Temperment systems, > GURPS does it advantages/disadvantages (which all have a 'use it or lose > it' policy). IN doesn't really touch it. I think because the IN system is > much looser, and less formal than either. It also is a more essential > portion of the game world. Its hard to not touch on spiritual issues at > all when playing IN, especially in mortal only campeigns. I touched on this a bit in the Corporeal Player's Guide. There were a couple of early ideas for advantages that were thrown out during playtesting, IIRC, as being too mechanistic. There is still the "Blessed" advantage, which despite its name doesn't necessarily mean someone is _divinely_ blessed, just that they have a natural resistance to being supernaturally-influenced (i.e., they're better at resisting demonic resonances). The Game Master's Guide has a bit more on the subject, and discusses various options depending on how you handle faith and religion in your campaign. For example, a Catholic campaign might treat everyone who's currently in a state of grace (i.e., has no unconfessed sins) as having the Blessed advantage. I also proposed that the GM might permit someone who has true faith and a very strong spirit to perform the equivalent of the sorcerous Exorcism rituals. But it's really not something that should be quantified too heavily, given that IN is intended to remain open for various flavors of campaigns. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:57:06 -0500 From: Santiago Subject: IN> Yet another Eli plot seed To: Dominic Re: Enemy Intelligence Clearance: For your eyes only As you know, my triad is currently collaborating with a triad of the Game. In the course of the mission, I came across the following fragment of a message. I felt that troubling you with it immediately was justified: "...field operative, but celestial observation confirms suspicion that subject is a Grigori. Disturbingly, his profile is definitely not that of any seen within the last two centuries. Searches in the archives failed to match him up with any of the 220 originals. Either their capacity for subterfuge has increased beyond our ability to penetrate, or someone is making new Grigori. Both possibilities are troublesome, to the say the least. When cornered, the subject left one operative bleeding profusely from a papercut, and another suffocated with a plastic bag. Such tactics are only consistent with a Malakite of Creation attunement, indicating the subject may be operating directly for, or at least have the tacit approval of, Eli. This evidence might explain the tripling of Grigori sightings over the last three decades. The assignment of a task force to the problem is imperative. I suggest that we take Zernozahl off project K7, and put him in..." I have told no one else of this, and await further instructions on what course to take. Your humble servant, Patahiel - ---------------------------------------------------------- To: Seraphiel Re: Outcast 847BG-934K-2 I want her turned over to my personal care. I think I have a lead on where she managed to learn the Song of Creation. - -- Dominic - ---------------------------------------------------------- - -- Santiago ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1590 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.