From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 24 15:27:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28051 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:27:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA17193 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:25:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:25:28 -0500 Message-Id: <200004242025.PAA17193@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1591 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 24 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1591 In this digest: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith IN> Evil Kids IN> Superior relations IN> NOT IN PRINT?! Re: IN> Evil Kids Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> Evil Kids Re: IN> Evil Kids Re: IN> Superior relations Re: IN> NOT IN PRINT?! Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> Animal Language's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:18:42 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith >From: Doctor TOC >Is there a better way to do this? > I wouldn't give people any bonuses for playing characters with genuine faith; except when dealing with triads or servitors of Khalid or Laurence, who'll tend to react much more favourably. The whole point is that God/ Divine Will is ineffable, and that you should not seek nor expect rewards (besides which, it's amusing to hear PCs ICly trying to justify their faith even in adversity). jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:23:47 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith No bonuses for faith or lack of faith. If bonuses exist, they can be documented; if they can be documented, then faith is quantifiable. Imagine your campaign's CIA getting their hands on such a person and tracking things. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:52:19 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Actually, I partially rescind my previous post. Surely, the religious nature of a person would come into play with a 111 or a 666. I imagine a faithful man's 111 would be different than an atheist's, for example. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:15:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith On Sun, 23 Apr 2000, ben wrote: > Surely, the religious nature of a person would come into play with a 111 or > a 666. I imagine a faithful man's 111 would be different than an atheist's, > for example. Atheists and agnostics never get anything other than beneficial coincidences at the higher levels? [Respite functioning as a really effective "second wind"/"I guess that was just a flesh wound after all..." and would a mortal notice an influx of Essence?] - -- I remain, Michael Martin "It is commonly the case with technologies that you can get the best insight about how they work by watching them fail." -- Neal Stephenson, "In the Beginning... Was the Command Line" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:10:18 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith ben wrote: > > Actually, I partially rescind my previous post. > > Surely, the religious nature of a person would come into play with a 111 or> a 666. I imagine a faithful man's 111 would be different than an atheist's,> for example. Not necessarily. Maybe an atheist would get a *better* result on a Divine Intervention, so as to instill faith in him. At any rate, canonically, a 111 is good for anyone who's not aligned with Hell. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:56 +1000 From: surturz@zip.com.au Subject: IN> Evil Kids Hiya Everybody, Quick thought/question - what if a Malakite of Children met an evil child who had met their fate? Could they avoid dissonance? Or would slaying such a child not be considered harming them? A broader question would be whether someone who has met their fate could be redeemed. SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:35:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Superior relations I need a bit of feedback, here. I'm doing a Heretical writeup (blackwinging an existing AA), loosely based in that Oops thingy I stick on the Web*, and I need some advice on how some Superiors (those who aren't the subjects of expanded writeups yet) feel about each other. So, if you all could spout off on the following current relationships: Janus/Novalis Jean/Novalis Marc/Novalis I'd be a happy camper. Thanks! Morgan, FAW Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Non-Profitable Writing *Don't know if it fits the rest of my Cycle: it's a little grim. Actually, it's real grim. I'm more of a high-brightness, low-contrast kinda guy, but you got to develop the ideas that come to you. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:57:07 EDT From: SteelHarbinger@aol.com Subject: IN> NOT IN PRINT?! I just read a Bright Dream and a Dark dream, and I have over 30 friends interested in playing (god bless college), but the book is out of print and there are no retailers near me! When are you planning to relase a new version? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 03:20:15 -0400 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> Evil Kids From: > Hiya Everybody, > > Quick thought/question - what if a Malakite of Children met > an evil child who had met their fate? Could they avoid > dissonance? Or would slaying such a child not be considered > harming them? I think Christopher is sympathetic enough to still try and work with the kid more. The child can still meet with his destiny, and that's better than killing, I'd think. Better reincarnation/disbanding then going to Hell. > A broader question would be whether someone who has met > their fate could be redeemed. They can certainly meet their destiny, in which case they either disband or reincarnate after death. Actual redemption isn't canonically possible, I don't think, but in my campaign it is. Most anything's possible, and I love a good redemption story. > SurturZ > Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism Aaron Medwin Malakite of Creation, Angel of Redemption Stories ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:10:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith I'm with the camp that feels faith and such should be essentially matters of roleplaying. At least, if the game has much of a dramatic component. If it's deliberately dramatically shallow, then what the heck. The thing is, faith should be roleplayed BACK. Not necessarily in all roleplaying games, but IN *is* a religion-based game, after all. And we needn't be talking about faith in God alone. One might presume that many angels have lots of faith in their Archangels. (Asking "Is that personal faith or religious faith?" is not a legitimate question; for an angel, the distinction should vanish.) And Archangels are NPCs who can appear on-stage. So an angel's faith in its Archangel is half of an interpersonal relation that should be roleplayed one way or another, both by the angel's player and by the GM when playing the Archangel. ben wrote: > Surely, the religious nature of a person would come into play with > a 111 or a 666. I imagine a faithful man's 111 would be different > than an atheist's, for example. I'd take it at a slightly different slant and say they're different for people who are concerned or unconcerned about spiritual matters.\ For a Solider, or a mundane consciously involved in the War, or a mundane who worries a lot about spiritual matters either pro OR con, or for a mundane who really NEEDS to be made aware of spiritual matters to get started toward their Destiny or Fate... For any of those people, I'd expect Interventions to be rather dramatic and/or personal. For people who are puttering through life on a slow but steady course to Destiny or Fate, most Interventions would be just good or bad luck ... unless the GM *wants* to hand them a dramatic change of course. But then, such people are usually just in the background in an In Nomine game. I agree that faith shouldn't give obvious, tangible rewards or a tactical advantage, but given that lots of Divine-side characters are angels, saints, or Soldiers, I think it reasonable that faith could give some clear signs of encouragement -- a celestial voice, a feeling of presence, a bit of an omen -- not conveying information about the campaign, perhaps, but reassuring the faithful that "it will be all right in the end." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 01:18:23 +1000 From: Brent McCartney Subject: Re: IN> Evil Kids As far as I am aware, the only way to do that is to help them meet their destiny as well, then they have the chance of reincarnation. Of course I have been known to be wrong before Brent At 03:56 PM 24/04/00 +1000, you wrote: >Hiya Everybody, > >Quick thought/question - what if a Malakite of Children met >an evil child who had met their fate? Could they avoid >dissonance? Or would slaying such a child not be considered >harming them? > >A broader question would be whether someone who has met >their fate could be redeemed. > >SurturZ >Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:59:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Evil Kids At 3:56 PM +1000 4/24/00, surturz@zip.com.au wrote: [Fateful kid & Malakim] >A broader question would be whether someone who has met >their fate could be redeemed. Someone who's met fate can also achive destiny, resulting in reincarnation or dissolution (GM's choice; be ineffable, not that anyone but maybe Yves and Kronos would know which it was anyway). As for an evil Hellbound kid -- depends on the Malakite. Some would probably torch the brat, while others might try to save him by getting him to repent and seek destiny. (Slaying his evil indirectly.) Malakim of Children would almost certainly fall into the latter category -- after all, hurting a kid is Bad, right? (Now, what could be really amusing would be a Malakite who decided to lock the kid up gently, so it couldn't die (and go to Hell) before it grew up, trying carefully to get the kid to repent and seek destiny, and then when the kid was no longer a kid... Ah, well.) (Or using the Song of Entrophy appropriately...) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:57:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superior relations At 11:35 PM -0700 4/23/00, Maurice Lane wrote: So, if you all >could spout off on the following current >relationships: > >Janus/Novalis >Jean/Novalis >Marc/Novalis > >I'd be a happy camper. Thanks! Well, it's NNC (Not Necessarily Canon), but many moons ago, I came up with... Janus: Flowers can bend with the breeze, trees can stand strong -- and they're always growing and changing. It's good to know somebody can stay grounded without being stagnant. She needs some shaking up now and then, but she likes surprises! Jean: Novalis believes that humanity should be taken care of, like babies. She does not understand how such lack of responsibility would dim their minds and turn them to selfishness. They already waste their potential on their own -- they don't need angelic help with that! Marc: I'm not going to complain about her clothing. I've walked into too many greenhouses and garden stores. Some of those might show up in canon someday, others might not, they might get mutated... You get the picture. (Okay, I confess -- I wrote up a polished rough draft for a typical 10-page expansion on Novalis when I was but another author, and it's sitting around on my computer...) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:05:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> NOT IN PRINT?! At 2:57 AM -0400 4/24/00, SteelHarbinger@aol.com wrote: >I just read a Bright Dream and a Dark dream, and I have over 30 friends >interested in playing (god bless college), but the book is out of print and >there are no retailers near me! When are you planning to relase a new >version? Don't ask me -- when the Powers That Be decide it's time to release the new printing. (Which will not be 2nd edition, darnit, but will have a certain amount of errata correction, so long as it doesn't trash layout.) There's always the mail order places on the web, many of which are linked to the sjgames.com/general site, and ebay... There's also GURPS In Nomine (unless you hate GURPS, of course) coming out in, I believe, June. That will have conversions (both ways, hopefully) and the powers are pretty much identical with about two exceptions (Saminga's Habbalah, and some tweaking with Gabriel's Distinctions; when I see the final edited published form, I can errata properly). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:35:29 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith At 15:21 -0400 4/22/00, Doctor TOC wrote: > Belief and Faith seem to be used interchangably a >lot, though they appear (at least to me) to be very different things. As >I understand it, belief is simply believing that things are a certain >way, whereas faith that plus trust. The way I see it is probably similar -- to me, "belief" in IN is a more- or-less-certainty that God exists. "Faith" is a certainty in His *rightness*. I guess that's pretty similar to "trust" -- if you believe He's right, you're trusting His judgement. Though I guess it would be possible to believe in someone's rightness, and still not trust them personally... trying to figure out how to work that makes my head hurt, though. (It's sort of like the Elohite point of view, but without the willingness for self-sacrifice.) Similar things could be said of Lucifer, I suppose, on the demonic side, but I'd think that very few demons actually have faith in Lucifer's rightness. It's probably most common in the newly-Fallen. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:38:14 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: IN> Animal Language's I sort of vaguely remember this topic coming before if I think real hard... We know that Animal vessels can speak a Human language. Can Human vessels speak an Animal language? If so is it standard issue or do you have to ask for it? (This refers to that actual ability to not the skill, ie can human vessel speak porpise which is off the scale of the human ability to hear or reproduce) Jordi's S. can "communicate basic concepts to those creatures through sound and gesture" that thier Choir is attuned to to but what about the rest of the Host? (Or a Seraph who wants to talk to a wolf in the above instance?) I don't have the sense that this really the language but more a special attunement. Ethereal Song of Tonges is the first no-brainer that I can find, assuming that an animal counts as "anyone" but I think that the Corporeal version could work also, esp for a Virtuoso. (Yes I know it says human language but is this an oversight? GM call?) Can you buy a animal language? If so, how broad would it be? Is is Birds, Raptors, Hawks or Red-Tailed Hawks? (I would guess that it is Birds or Raptors personally) If you have an Dog vessel can you speak with other Dogs? (or whatever) What about Chimps (& other apes), Whales, and Dolphins? Thanks, David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:03:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's David Rodemaker wrote: > Can you buy a animal language? If so, how broad would it be? Is is > Birds, Raptors, Hawks or Red-Tailed Hawks? (I would guess that it > is Birds or Raptors personally) > > If you have an Dog vessel can you speak with other Dogs? (or > whatever) > > What about Chimps (& other apes), Whales, and Dolphins? Given that the default realism level of IN is not very high, you first have to decide how much animals talk to each other in your IN campaign. If you assume animals are much as we really think them to be, then most of them don't have much one could call a "language," so such communications is out, barring Songs and Attunements. I would guess that, say, a celestial with a Red-Tailed Hawk vessel would automatically get all the body-language and calls that real red-tailed hawks use to communicate with each other. These are more like laughing and shrugging than like language. The probably work pretty well for most other raptors. The celestial could then buy a skill in the body-lanuguage of, say, ducks, with which to startle the daylights out of any mundane duck... (Parrots and mockingbirds can, and do, confuse other animals by immitating their calls.) Please note, though, that animal body-language is often a lot more expressive and info-packed than human body-language, exactly because humans can fall back on spoaken language. Still, it's almost entirely about communicating mood and intent, not stuff we would express in third-person declarative sentence. An animal communicating such stuff with a celestial is having what is, for it, a mystical experience. That is, if you're talking relatively realistic animals. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:21:39 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's David Rodemaker wrote: "I think that the Corporeal version could work also, esp for a Virtuoso. (Yes I know it says human language but is this an oversight? GM call?)" My instinct would be to interpret that as any *Corporeal* language. I would suspect that the "human" distinction is to prevent the caster from using it to speak a celestial (or Ethereal? do those exist?) language. I could be wrong, though. It happens ^_^ - -Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:14:46 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's > Please note, though, that animal body-language is often a lot > more expressive and info-packed than human body-language, exactly > because humans can fall back on spoaken language. Still, it's > almost entirely about communicating mood and intent, not stuff > we would express in third-person declarative sentence. > > An animal communicating such stuff with a celestial is having > what is, for it, a mystical experience. That is, if you're talking > relatively realistic animals. I would agree but there are various comments about animals having Destinies and Fates sprinkled about the various of the books. The idea of a servitor of Destiny *not* being able to speak with an animal seems a little out of place. Mind you Jordi is very, very "annoyed" that the vast majority of Celestials are ignoring animals in favor of humans. But I don't think that it means that only S. of Jordi can communicate with animals. David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:25:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's David Rodemaker wrote: > I would agree but there are various comments about animals having > Destinies and Fates sprinkled about the various of the books. The > idea of a servitor of Destiny *not* being able to speak with an > animal seems a little out of place. I agree; I presume any servitor of Yves with an animal assignment would have whatever is needed in the way of animal communication abilities. As I recall, Yves and Jordi are on good terms, so anything Yves couldn't provide in that way, they could get from Jordi. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:08:38 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's >From: "David Rodemaker" > > >I would agree but there are various comments about animals having Destinies >and Fates sprinkled about the various of the books. I don't think so. I thought it had been said quite clearly that all animal souls end up on the Savannah, & there aren't any in Hell. That implies that they don't have destinies or fates in the human sense. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:24:48 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's > Return-Path: j_hart@hotmail.com > >From: "David Rodemaker" > >I would agree but there are various comments about animals having Destinies > >and Fates sprinkled about the various of the books. > > I don't think so. I thought it had been said quite clearly that all animal > souls end up on the Savannah, & there aren't any in Hell. That implies that > they don't have destinies or fates in the human sense. Following a fate or destiny is a voluntary act, of free will. Even if an animal has free will, its not as if it consciously chooses between actions. Maybe it would be possible for semi-conscious animals (apes, chimps, various whales) to make that choice (and boy that would piss Jordi off) if *really* pushed into it, but it would certainly not be common. (and presumably, zombified animals have no souls left, like humans, and disperse on corporeal death) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1591 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.