From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 24 22:41:57 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22519 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:41:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA03767 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:39:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:39:41 -0500 Message-Id: <200004250339.WAA03767@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1592 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 24 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1592 In this digest: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) RE: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) RE: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) IN> Unholy Sefirot Re: IN> NOT IN PRINT?! Re: IN> Superior relations Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Re: IN> Unholy Sefirot Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feeloftheOfanite, with a good backbeat...) Re: IN> Animal Language's IN> Sticky Questions (Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals) Re: IN> Superior relations Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? IN> Superiors 7 Re: IN> Angel of Pain? IN> Souls in Hell Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> Animal Language's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:30:27 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) >>I would agree but there are various comments about animals having Destinies >>and Fates sprinkled about the various of the books. > >I don't think so. I thought it had been said quite clearly that all animal >souls end up on the Savannah, & there aren't any in Hell. That implies that >they don't have destinies or fates in the human sense. In the expanded write up of Yves in H&H Jordi comments that Yves' angels are aware that animals have destinies and fates too. Whether or not that's just Jordi's opinion, canon fact or has been tossed I'm not sure. But that's what the book says. There does seem to be a tension between the fact that there are no animal souls in hell and the destiny/fate of animals. Maybe an animal can only meet its fate after meeting its destiny (causing reincarnation or discorperation) or perhaps meeting its fate results in discorperation intead of Hell for animals. Its also possible that animal souls pouring into Hell simply blow up into free forces for Hell, or become the property of Lucifer because their isn't any demon prince of beasts (as far as I know at least). Maybe he has hell hounds, and cats, and birds, and sharks, and so on. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:41:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Tim Groth wrote: > Maybe he [Lucifer] has hell hounds, and cats, and birds, and > sharks, and so on. The main book said that the only source of animals in Hell were the force-stripped human souls from Abbadon, where Saminga strip-mines them. I would guess that the fates/destinies of animals did not determine whether they went to Heaven or Hell, but were simply the best or worst part they could play in the Symphony. It might not have any effect on where the animal's soul ends up. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:48:16 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) I thought I remembered something about animal souls wandering around Abaddon... - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:03:53 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: RE: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) >I thought I remembered something about animal souls wandering around >Abaddon... Those used to be human souls, as they get their forces striped they regress. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:09:48 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Earl said:: ... > I would guess that the fates/destinies of animals did not determine > whether they went to Heaven or Hell, but were simply the best or > worst part they could play in the Symphony. It might not have > any effect on where the animal's soul ends up. .... Now here's a sticky set of questions. Why are human souls going to Hell? When did they start going to Hell? Where did the souls of the humans at the same time as the Eden experiment go? Is it part of the Divine Plan that human souls go to Hell if they've been Bad(tm)? Are they simply floating downward because there is place there? Or are the Demon Princes and/or Lucifer pulling souls? Does something about Dark Tethers enable this? Further reflection: How did Daniel and Hutriel(I think? the Angels of Final Judgement) get into place? At what point did Heaven first gain access to Hell? Was there indeed a point where the Fallen were still so scared that they agreed to this permanent presence? Too many questions today. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:28:05 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) >Now here's a sticky set of questions. Why are human souls going to Hell? >When did they start going to Hell? Where did the souls of the humans at the >same time as the Eden experiment go? Perhaps there is a like to like attraction, where the selfless are pulled towards the center of selflessness and the selfish towards the center of selfishness. Likewise a repulsion between dissimilar things would push selfish humans as far from Heaven as possible. This is also where the first demons landed, and found some humans there to begin with. Of course this would mean that redemption of damned souls and fall from grace of saved souls is possible, however unlikely. >Further reflection: How did Daniel and Hutriel(I think? the Angels of >Final Judgement) get into place? At what point did Heaven first gain access >to Hell? Was there indeed a point where the Fallen were still so scared >that they agreed to this permanent presence? Heaven always had access to Hell, at least that's how it seems. They were put in place by Dominic right after the Rebellion (I think) to make sure that no cosmic mistakes landed a person in Hell. Reality is fixed in Heaven's favor, which makes sense. God can act in Hell, Lucifer can't act in Heaven. He should have thought of that before Rebelling. I'm not sure how neccesary the Angels of Final Judgement are, I don't really see how a person who belongs in Heaven would wind up at the gates of Hell. Unless there are some nifty powers that steal souls that I'm not aware of it doesn't seem likely to happen. In canon have they ever had to lift someone out of the crowd? Also does Heaven just let people who mistakenly end up at their gates in, or does the Seraph at the gates check to make sure every person whose there belongs. And if that is the case has he ever had to kick someone down to hell? I think that those safe guards have never been used, and are just in case. It would really, really, REALLY, rub Dominic the wrong way (he would probably feel it from his Word) if a soul went to the wrong place. That would be an interesting way to torment Dominic, trap a soul in the wrong place and watch him get nutty as he feels the cosmic mis-judgement scrape at him. Make it somewhat his fault and you've got one irritated Archangel. Maybe after that he'd have some more sympathy for Gabriel. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation My international broadcastingagency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:34:04 +0800 From: Quistis Subject: IN> Unholy Sefirot Hello there, Looking to do some research that might help the game..does anyone know where to find a page on the Unholy Sefirot, or know each sefira in detail? The equivalent in hell to the holy Sefirot... I've been looking for information on this for quite a while. Thanks ^^ - - Quistis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:22:26 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> NOT IN PRINT?! Check your local retailers, the ones around New Orleans have a few copies, and I'd imagine yours should have some as well. If not, there's numerous places on the web you can get it, not the least of which is e-bay. if you still can't find any, e-mail me privately, I can recommend a few good places on the web to look or order. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 1:57 AM Subject: IN> NOT IN PRINT?! > I just read a Bright Dream and a Dark dream, and I have over 30 friends > interested in playing (god bless college), but the book is out of print and > there are no retailers near me! When are you planning to relase a new > version? > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:44:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Superior relations Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:57:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: At 11:35 PM -0700 4/23/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >>So, if you all could spout off on the following >>current relationships: >>Janus/Novalis >>Jean/Novalis >>Marc/Novalis >>I'd be a happy camper. Thanks! >Well, it's NNC (Not Necessarily Canon), but many >moons ago,I came up with... >Janus: Flowers can bend with the breeze, >trees can stand strong -- and they're always growing >and changing. It's good to know somebody can stay >grounded without being stagnant. She needs some >shaking up now and then, but she likes >surprises! >Jean: Novalis believes that humanity should >be taken care of, like babies. She does not >understand how such lack of responsibility would dim >their minds and turn them to selfishness. They >already waste their potential on their own -- they >don't need angelic help with that! >Marc: I'm not going to complain about her >clothing. I've walked into too many greenhouses and >garden stores. >Some of those might show up in canon someday, others >might not, they might get mutated... You get the >picture. Thanks, Beth. Now all I need is Novy's view of _them_, and I'm set. >(Okay, I confess -- I wrote up a polished rough draft >for a typical 10-page expansion on Novalis when I was >but another author, and it's sitting around on my >computer...) Oooooooohhhhhh. ;) Morgan, FAW Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Holding Your Breath Until You Get A Peace Faction Superiors Book __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:53:46 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Hi folks! New to this list (after a long time when I really ought to have been on!) Here goes, I hope noone is offended... >> Surely, the religious nature of a person would come into play with a 111 or> a 666. I imagine a faithful man's 111 would be different than an atheist's,> for example. > >Not necessarily. Maybe an atheist would get a *better* result on a >Divine Intervention, so as to instill faith in him. At any rate, >canonically, a 111 is good for anyone who's not aligned with Hell. Surely this is the point! The D666 roll is specifically about people involved in the War. It implies the direct intervention of one side or the other to influence actions involving the War. I interpret the rules as meaning there is no place for everyday mundanes to receive interventions. If there is a situation where they could then it is because they are interracting with servitors in the War in some way. Rolls are only relevant in the game, and that is about the War. I think we can assume that mundanes don't get rolls in everyday life that might result in interventions. The game implies that interventions ought to be dramatic and obvious, so I think that a mundane making a roll and getting an intervention is definitely made aware of the War as a result. The difficulty of atheists might be resolved by a GM adjudication as to whether they are nearer their fate or destiny as a way of arbitrarily deciding which side they are more closely allied with (of course in the case of lawyers, accountants, tax inspectors, etc, the alignment is already clear!). The game also makes it pretty clear that there is a God/Supreme Being although the nature of this being is unclear. There are angels, demons, etc. Therefore being an atheist should not insulate you from interventions. You might not believe before, but after such a dramatic event you probably might have some thinking to do! Of course you can adopt the Dana Scully approach and refuse to belive no matter how many times angels appear on blazing wings to rescue you. I cannot see any reason for either side to disguise themselves for the benefit of atheists, unless there is a specific reason. This strikes me as especially true in the context of D666 rolls, taking place as they do in the War. Personally I would fudge any roles for mundanes and only allow interventions when it was dramatic and would fit. I might not let the clerk at the library get an Infernal intervention because she is suspicious that you have forged a library card. On the other hand if you turn clestial in the reading room and she needs to dodge a furious battle, then maybe! Maybe I am thinking too Saul of Tarsus and the road to Damascus? Christopher Lee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:13:19 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) > Return-Path: Timothy.Groth@colorado.edu > >Now here's a sticky set of questions. Why are human souls going to Hell? > >When did they start going to Hell? Where did the souls of the humans at the > >same time as the Eden experiment go? > > Perhaps there is a like to like attraction, where the selfless are pulled > towards the center of selflessness and the selfish towards the center of > selfishness. Likewise a repulsion between dissimilar things would push > selfish humans as far from Heaven as possible. This is also where the > first demons landed, and found some humans there to begin with. Of course > this would mean that redemption of damned souls and fall from grace of > saved souls is possible, however unlikely. CPG implies that the former is possible, but unlikely (as damned souls don;t have too much time to seek for redemption) and the latter is unlikely. There is something about how some saints can fall from grace and be discorpreated, but I don't recall the specifics. > >Further reflection: How did Daniel and Hutriel(I think? the Angels of > >Final Judgement) get into place? At what point did Heaven first gain access > >to Hell? Was there indeed a point where the Fallen were still so scared > >that they agreed to this permanent presence? > > Heaven always had access to Hell, at least that's how it seems. They were > put in place by Dominic right after the Rebellion (I think) to make sure > that no cosmic mistakes landed a person in Hell. Reality is fixed in > Heaven's favor, which makes sense. God can act in Hell, Lucifer can't act > in Heaven. He should have thought of that before Rebelling. Do you really think Lucifer thought he'd lose? or that he knew where he was going to end up when he lost? > I'm not sure how neccesary the Angels of Final Judgement are, I don't > really see how a person who belongs in Heaven would wind up at the gates of > Hell. Unless there are some nifty powers that steal souls that I'm not > aware of it doesn't seem likely to happen. In canon have they ever had to > lift someone out of the crowd? CPG: A hellsworn who never recants/redeems, but ends up closer to their destiny than their fate, are among the lucky few who get pulled out by the angels of final judgement. > I think that those safe guards have never been used, and are just in case. > It would really, really, REALLY, rub Dominic the wrong way (he would > probably feel it from his Word) if a soul went to the wrong place. That > would be an interesting way to torment Dominic, trap a soul in the wrong > place and watch him get nutty as he feels the cosmic mis-judgement scrape > at him. Make it somewhat his fault and you've got one irritated Archangel. > Maybe after that he'd have some more sympathy for Gabriel. I don't think selfish mortals would be all that out of place in heavan. You can still have an enlightened self interest and be there, after all (witness Muyashi's canonned presence). As for ending up in hell, thats what Daniel and Hurtiel are supposed to guard against. and with the potential of souls in hell seeking redemption, there may have to be 'rescue' missions every so often. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:04:26 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Unholy Sefirot > Hello there, > Looking to do some research that might help the game..does anyone know > where to find a page on the Unholy Sefirot, or know each sefira in detail? > The equivalent in hell to the holy Sefirot... I've been looking for > information on this for quite a while. Thanks ^^ 1- Thaumiel "The two contending Forces" 2- Chaigidiel or Ghogiel "The Hinders" 3- Sathariel or Sheireil or Satariel "The Concealers" 4- Gamchicoth or Gog Sheklah or Agshekeloh "The Breaker in Pieces" 5- Golab or Golohab "The Burners" 6- Togarini or Tagiririon "The Disputers" 7- Harab Serap or Gharab Tzerek "The Ravens of Death" 8- Sammael "The Liar or Poison of God" 9- Gamaliel "The Obscene One's" 10- Lilith "Queen of the Night and of Demons" RF Waite, The Holy Kabbalah RF Regardie, The Golden Dawn Different names are probably the result of differing translations of the Hebrew script. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:02:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Corporeal Song of Shields (was Re: IN> The look and feeloftheOfanite, with a good backbeat...) At 6:38 PM -0500 4/18/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> And, as further note to myself, a FAQ could quite easily say, >> "It's a miracle, ad lib it" _and_ "Or, if you don't want to do that, >> consult the very similiar in some ways GURPS spell." > >This assumes that most IN players play GURPS and own GURPS Grimoire, GURPS Magic. Actually, I was assuming that the FAQ about Force Dome were on the web in the Roleplayer articles. Can't find 'em there, though, so they must be somewhere else. Maybe a Pyramid article, which makes them less convenient than I'd thought they would be for web-browsing. *grump* >or >that the only two possibilities are to "ad lib" it or use the GURPS >spell (i.e., that there is no way to be consistent about its effects >other than by using a GURPS-mechanistic model). Well, considering that that's what a lot of people have _said_ -- that they don't use consistent effects, but instead run it according to how they feel the situation warrents -- I think that's pretty close. Or use some other very similar spell. (Heck, that could be fun: amass as many other spells as possible that one could run CorpShields like...) >> (Since the people who ask in a way that implies, "give me canon, >> give me hard and fast rules" aren't going to want to do the ad lib >> stuff anyway -- if they'd wanted to do that, they wouldn't have >> asked. > >Not always true -- some people want to know if there IS canon on its >exact effects, possibly because they want to know just how to treat In >Nomine Songs in general. Tell them to refer to a GURPS spell, and you're >telling them "Treat In Nomine Songs like GURPS spells." No, I'm telling them that there is no canon on it, and if they want consistent effects -- that's one that will have 'em. >> Have all of you lot who said, "It's a miracle, don't hem >> it in!" ever asked or even _thought_ about asking, "how does it >> work?"?) > >Sure. Off the top of my head, I can think of several ways to handle the >Corporeal Song of Shields: Nonononono -- I mean _ASKING_. Here. On the list. Saying, "Hey, everyone, pretend I didn't get my name on that Canticorum thing ('cause it's real embarassing to ask this otherwise) and tell me... How _should_ I be running that Corporeal Shields Song?" Or words to that effect. See, you can come up with several ways off the top of your head. You don't _need_ to ask. The thought of seeking someone else's opinion on the subject because you couldn't think of how to run it "right" yourself has never crossed your mind, has it? So collect the off-the-cuff ways that you had, including Force Dome for those who prefer that, adding in similiar effects from other systems, and stick _that_ in the FAQ. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:02:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's At 11:38 AM -0500 4/24/00, David Rodemaker wrote: >I sort of vaguely remember this topic coming before if I think real hard... > >We know that Animal vessels can speak a Human language. Can Human vessels >speak an Animal language? Urm.... I think that I'm _really_ leaning to canon being: "Only Jordi's get to do the Dr. Doolittle trick." (Of course, in other games, go for it. It could be fun.) I will read all the various posts, of course, but I can't help but feel that if any old angel could do that, it would devalue the schtick of the Servitors of Animals. > If so is it standard issue or do you have to ask >for it? (This refers to that actual ability to not the skill, ie can human >vessel speak porpise which is off the scale of the human ability to hear or >reproduce) In this case, I'd say that no, you don't get the fancy vocal adjustments physically required to make the noises to flawlessly immitate the sounds of a non-human. See the section on fancy vessels in the GMG... O:> >Ethereal Song of Tonges is the first no-brainer that I can find, assuming >that an animal counts as "anyone" but I think that the Corporeal version >could work also, esp for a Virtuoso. (Yes I know it says human language but >is this an oversight? GM call?) It's to rule out celestial languages -- like the Distinction of Michael's that allows angelic, or Helltongue. I'd let it work on an animal, sure, though the animal's reaction would depend on its temperment and previous experiences. Now, _Corporeal_ Tongues, I'd say, "No way." (Again, your game, your call.) Basically, it's to keep Jordi's Servitors from becoming seriously redundant and less interesting. If Joe Angel could talk to the animals, where would the boggle factor be in having the Jordian lean over to ask the alley cat, "So, did you see a guy run through here?", listen intently to a few chirrups back, and then say, "Yeah, he went this way, and he's bleeding."? - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:02:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Sticky Questions (Re: Destinies/Fates of Animals) At 2:09 PM -0700 4/24/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Now here's a sticky set of questions. Why are human souls going to Hell? [etc. Snip] You know, I think that every single one of these is very likely to fall under the heading of CDaU, with a dosing of, "Ask me when a canon plot depends on it." O:> Either that, or it's already discussed in the CPG. Mmmm, I love it when I can just sit back and watch a thread without having to be serious about it. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:02:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superior relations At 2:44 PM -0700 4/24/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Thanks, Beth. Now all I need is Novy's view of _them_, >and I'm set. If I happen to come across them, I'll post -- but I don't think I have them at this instant. Maybe you could have hopeful authors give you their suggestions. O:> (As well as the rest of the list who _aren't_ for whatever reason.) >Kyriotate of Destiny >Petitioner for the Word of Holding Your Breath Until >You Get A Peace Faction Superiors Book What, you mean "Peace and Nature"? I'd had that slated as S7. May take a while. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:23:28 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Doctor TOC wrote: > This brings up some intriguing problems with running faith in a game, so > I wondered how other GMs handled it. I dislike quantifying things like > faith in terms of numbers, since players will naturally tend to attempt > to maximise things in their favour, without getting the point of faith, > si I've tended to base it on the actions of the character as played. For > instance, I gave a positive modifier to the character who was played as > attending church regularly, taking time for prayer, behaving in a > generally pious fashion and acting as if he genuinely believed the Lord > had a plan for him, but did not give one to the character who did none > of those things in-game, but whose player stated the character did all > "that stuff" between sessions. > Is there a better way to do this? Well, I can't speak for cannon, but IMC it didn't matter one bit what your standing with the church was all that mattered was if you achieved your destiny or your fate and that really only mattered for humans. trent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:27:25 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith ben wrote: > > Actually, I partially rescind my previous post. > > Surely, the religious nature of a person would come into play with a 111 or > a 666. I imagine a faithful man's 111 would be different than an atheist's, > for example. But it can be so amusing if they aren't. trent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:45:43 -0400 From: "A.Hamilton" Subject: IN> Angel of Pain? List, Alright..I'm working on the notes for my first IN campaign. (We're going to run a free-standing adventure or two first, to get a feel for the game). And I have an idea for a Word-bound angel that I'd really like to use, after watching Shadowlands (A biography of CS Lewis starring Anthony Hopkins). The basic idea is for an Angel of Pain. A celestial who goes about causing pain. But not from some sadistic enjoyment of the job. Rather, because pain can be used to make a human (or even a celestial) a better person, to act more selflessly. I imagine it's a rather tricky job.. Anyway, specific questions: Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite. This just seems so obvious. They have the perfect mindset for handling the sort of chore that being the Angel of Pain would entail. But I'd like to here other suggestions certainly. Which Superior? This..well, I'm thinking David because of his whole 'adversity makes people stronger' shtick. I could also see Janus as a potential candidate, because pain usualy leads to change. But that seems a stretch. Any ideas? Forces? How many forces would an Angel with this word have? I'm still waiting on my copy of the GMG, so I'm not sure about how to assign forces for words and such as that. Any other thoughts about designing such an NPC would be greatly appreciated, as I'm new to this system and trying to make my plans for a campaign with just the main book. A.Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:01:25 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? "A.Hamilton" wrote: > > List, > > Alright..I'm working on the notes for my first IN campaign. (We're > going to run a free-standing adventure or two first, to get a feel for the > game). And I have an idea for a Word-bound angel that I'd really like to > use, after watching Shadowlands (A biography of CS Lewis starring Anthony > Hopkins). The basic idea is for an Angel of Pain. A celestial who goes > about causing pain. But not from some sadistic enjoyment of the job. > Rather, because pain can be used to make a human (or even a celestial) a > better person, to act more selflessly. I imagine it's a rather tricky job.. Good Idea > Anyway, specific questions: > > Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite. This just seems so > obvious. They have the perfect mindset for handling the sort of chore that > being the Angel of Pain would entail. But I'd like to here other > suggestions certainly. Defiantly go Eloite that way your PCs start off thinking of them as crewel bastard rather than Vulcans. > Which Superior? This..well, I'm thinking David because of his whole > 'adversity makes people stronger' shtick. I could also see Janus as a > potential candidate, because pain usualy leads to change. But that seems a > stretch. Any ideas? David all the way. Heck in David's organization he could very easily have a distinction or two. IF he was good at his job. > Forces? How many forces would an Angel with this word have? I'm still > waiting on my copy of the GMG, so I'm not sure about how to assign forces > for words and such as that. I'd say 12-14 is good. > Any other thoughts about designing such an NPC would be greatly appreciated, > as I'm new to this system and trying to make my plans for a campaign with > just the main book. Don't worry it's all you really need. Hope you have better luck than i did trying to get my PCs interested in the Angel of the Party. trent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:23:39 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? From: "A.Hamilton" Subject: IN> Angel of Pain? > > Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite. The only other choice that I could see making any sense would be a Malakite. Mercurians and Kyriotates simply couldn't take the job without racking up dissonance fast enough to put them on the express train to Hell. Ofanim just don't have the right mindset IMO, and Seraphim are too far divorced from human nature to handle the job properly. Not that, if I were running a game involving the Angel of Pain, I wouldn't have a Balseraph of "Doing This For Your Own Good" who was the original Angel of Pain, until it started getting carried away with doing its job... But the nature of Elohim makes them best at judging exactly how much pain is enough to produce the proper results in humans without sending them into crippling despair, so I'd say you can't do better than an Elohite. > Which Superior? This..well, I'm thinking David because of his whole > 'adversity makes people stronger' shtick. Yves or Gabriel would be interesting alternate choices, but I think David is best for the very reasons you cite. > Forces? How many forces would an Angel with this word have? Pain would, I think, be major enough to rate 5 forces. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:54:56 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? >Rather, because pain can be used to make a human (or even a celestial) a >better person, to act more selflessly. I imagine it's a rather tricky job.. Very. If you want to make things interesting, you could have the previous holder have Fallen. >Anyway, specific questions: > >Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite. Oh, definitely. >This just seems so >obvious. They have the perfect mindset for handling the sort of chore that >being the Angel of Pain would entail. But I'd like to here other >suggestions certainly. Definitely not a Merc! Nor a Cherub... too nurturing. And an Ofanite likely wouldn't have the attention span for it. No, the backup possibilities are Seraph and Malakite. Seraph -- Pain is truth, part of the reality that God is showing us. Understand it and offer it up to God. Mal -- Pain hurts. Rise above it, and so bring yourself closer to God. But yeah, Elohite is the most obvious choice. >Which Superior? This..well, I'm thinking David because of his whole >'adversity makes people stronger' shtick. Yep. There's barely a second choice, really. >I could also see Janus as a >potential candidate, because pain usualy leads to change. But that seems a >stretch. Any ideas? Gabriel is the only other one I could see. Pain as purification, insight and vision, the prophets cutting themselves with stone as they burn in the desert... and also, pain as God's righteous punishment for cruelty. But David seems the best fit. >Forces? How many forces would an Angel with this word have? Plenty. It's a biggie. Pain is everywhere. I'd say 14-16, myself, and probably most or all of his Superior's attunements and distinctions. >Any other thoughts about designing such an NPC would be greatly appreciated, Powerful NPCs like this should be played as sub-Superiors, IMO; they don't wade into combat, they send the PCs into combat. If you want to fine tune the character, give him some attunements and Rites from other Superiors (there's no limit on this as long as the Superiors aren't actually hostile). You can even make him an "Elohite of X in Service to Y". Pain has been around forever. Did your angel always hold this Word? There was Pain before the Fall, after all (just as there was Fear). If not, what happened to the former holder? Note that a powerful Word-Bound will have Rites, maybe several of them. These would probably be rather subtle. "Inflict severe pain" wouldn't be appropriate, but "change someone's behavior permanently by inflicting severe pain" might be. Or "overcome severe pain to accomplish a task". PCs might be granted these temporarily, or permanently if they do something really spiffy. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 2000 02:21:52 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: IN> Superiors 7 On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:02:22 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 2:44 PM -0700 4/24/00, Maurice Lane wrote: [snip] >>Kyriotate of Destiny >>Petitioner for the Word of Holding Your Breath Until >>You Get A Peace Faction Superiors Book > >What, you mean "Peace and Nature"? I'd had that slated as S7. >May take a while. Jean, Novalis, Eli... Christopher? i'd like to include Jordi in that, but something makes me think he's not in the peace faction (why do i remember Jordi in the war faction?).... -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:45:29 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? > The basic idea is for an Angel of Pain. A celestial who goes > about causing pain. But not from some sadistic enjoyment of the job. > Rather, because pain can be used to make a human (or even a celestial) a > better person, to act more selflessly. I imagine it's a rather tricky job.. I wish I had thought of this. Great idea! > Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite Add agreement and my vote for this to the others. > Which Superior? I'd also agree with David. The idea for Gabriel makes a certain amount sense but I really think that David the way to go. On second thought Litheroy could be interesting, as might Khalid... Yes, Khalid could work very well. Faith and Pain seem to go hand and hand quite often esp. with the CS Lewis ref. that you are going with. My vote is now for Khalid. > Forces? How many forces would an Angel with this word have? I'm still > waiting on my copy of the GMG, so I'm not sure about how to assign forces > for words and such as that. It depends on how you want to view the word and what it encompasses. I would say that the way you're talking about him I would place the Word as a Major one (Pg 25 GMG) and probably at the 20 WF mark. (Lets see any of us imagine a world without physical, emotional, or spiritual pain...) I can see Powerful Celestials with weak Words but cannot fathom the logic of a weak Celestial with a powerful one. We usually put the Forces right around that of the Word-Forces. Occasionally you get someone who has just had the Forces beat out of them in Celestial combat and thus there being as disparity but we pretty much keep to this concept. Keeping with the rules I would make this bad boy a 18 Force big kahuna. I would also agree that this is someone with a Master or higher distinction and a whole load of extra's. You might want to go with a Servitor of Faith currently in service to Stone or (more likely) just give him a number of goodies from Stone to round him out. Yves would also probably like him and he might have a goodie or two from Destiny. Let us know what you get when you're done. I would love to see this one. David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:01:02 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Souls in Hell Tim Groth wrote: > > >Now here's a sticky set of questions. Why are human souls going to Hell?> >When did they start going to Hell? Where did the souls of the humans at the> >same time as the Eden experiment go? For a non-canon answer: http://amadan.org/Innomine/Azrael.htm - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:02:55 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Christopher Lee wrote: > Surely this is the point! The D666 roll is specifically about people involved in the War. It implies the direct intervention of one side or the other to influence actions involving the War. But not necessarily in a visible, supernatural manner. >>> I interpret the rules as meaning there is no place for everyday mundanes to receive interventions.<<< A fine interpretation, but not canon. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:32:34 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's > Urm.... I think that I'm _really_ leaning to canon being: "Only Jordi's > get to do the Dr. Doolittle trick." (Of course, in other games, go > for it. It could be fun.) I will read all the various posts, of course, > but I can't help but feel that if any old angel could do that, it would > devalue the schtick of the Servitors of Animals. After some re-reading of the Rulebook I would have to agree myself. I, for some reason, thought that Jordi's people had more than the communication thing as thier Choir attunement. Clearly however none of those are restricted so a Jordi S. could end up getting all of them and other Choirs could get at least they one that they match. I also don't see Jordi being real unwilling to hand this one out if the Angel in question is working with the animal group alot, respects them, etc, etc. > In this case, I'd say that no, you don't get the fancy vocal adjustments > physically required to make the noises to flawlessly immitate the > sounds of a non-human. See the section on fancy vessels in the GMG... > O:> Ooops! Forgot about that! > It's to rule out celestial languages -- like the Distinction of Michael's > that allows angelic, or Helltongue. I'd let it work on an animal, sure, > though the animal's reaction would depend on its temperment and previous > experiences. Now, _Corporeal_ Tongues, I'd say, "No way." (Again, your > game, your call.) Kiara's game actually, I just tend to do most of the posting ( love you hon!) How about for the Virtuoso? Also what would be the general reaction that an animal would give to the Corp Song of Nimbus? Or the Celestial version for that matter. Are animals of the "fear not" crowd or are they of the "angels don't need to eat (us) and thus are wonderful and even more so if they serve Jordi crowd?" How about the idea that animals being more perceptive they can actually get a hint of the Word that the Angels serve and react accordingly (Jordi, Novalis, Yves, thumbs up -Laurence, Marc, Gabriel, I'm outa here...) What is the essence cost for Celestial Song of Form to change species? Or can you? (See Song of Beasts) I guess reading the Celestial version that you cannot do this with the Song of Form. The description of Song of Form might need to be clarified as "within human norms" and need to be a Virtuoso to become a giant or midget or whatever... (hunchback anyone?) After some more reading I (of course) finally came over to the L. Canticorum and tripped over the Song of Beasts. The description there seems to be completely backwards. As if the only people who have it are Jordi's people but most of the abilities are redundant for them! This seems to be the Song that I was looking for but "freely available to Jordi's Servitors, but woe to anyone who teaches them to others." (Pg 63) Why? Doesn't seem to make much sense for Jordi to actively keep other Celestials from being able to interact with animals. Does this seem as off the wall to everyone else as it does to me? Pardon the rambles but my brain is working overdrive... David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1592 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.