From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 25 11:10:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20096 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:10:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA29225 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:05:28 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:05:28 -0500 Message-Id: <200004251605.LAA29225@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1593 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1593 In this digest: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Animal Language's IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1592 Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Ethereal Song of Tongues artifact (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Re: IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Souls in Hell Re: IN> Unholy Sefirot Re: IN> Superiors 7 Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: Ethereal Song of Tongues artifact (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Re: IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> Angel of Pain? (Longish response) Re: IN> Angel of Pain? (Longish response) IN> Firstborn (was Angel of Pain) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Apr 2000 04:11:07 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:45:29 -0500 David Rodemaker wrote: someone (A. Milligan?) wrote: >> The basic idea is for an Angel of Pain. A celestial who goes >> about causing pain. But not from some sadistic enjoyment of the job. >> Rather, because pain can be used to make a human (or even a celestial) a >> better person, to act more selflessly. I imagine it's a rather tricky >>job.. > > I wish I had thought of this. Great idea! i've been thinking of this, but hadn't written it up yet. it's among my ideas for a new Angel of Fear, or a Demon of Fear, Servitor of Nightmares (haven't quite decided and worked out all the kinks yet). >> Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite >Add agreement and my vote for this to the others. i'll add my vote to that as well. >> Which Superior? [snip] >Yes, Khalid could work very well. Faith and Pain seem to go hand and hand >quite often esp. with the CS Lewis ref. that you are going with. My vote is >now for Khalid. hmm, i'll have to read _Shadowlands_ for a better concept of this character, but if one presumes it was this angel that afflicted Job, i'm thinking either Stone or Wind, if the Angel of Pain even *has* a Superior. i can't speak for Word Forces, and have thus snipped them as a question, but i'm keeping David's comment about pain in relation to those Word Forces for my next point: >(Lets see any of us imagine a world without physical, emotional, or spiritual >pain...) I can see Powerful Celestials with weak Words but cannot fathom the >logic of a weak Celestial with a powerful one. okay, that now for that next point (thanks for phrasing this so beautifully, David, since it puts my clarifies my line of thought more than i before i'd read it): the Angel of Pain is not someone else's Servitor, though it may have been long ago. instead, it's a Minor Superior of its own, with attendant Rites, Distinctions, and Servitor Attunements. unless this Wordbound has only recently been granted Pain, it will have been around for millenia, with the chances for power, political alliances, and Song acquisition that most other highly powerful Wordbound and Superiors have. so instead of saying which Superior the Angel of Pain serves, i'll twist this a little, and tell you which Superiors with which the Angel of Pain is on good relations: David, Janus, Khalid, Michael, Yves. it would be associated with Dominic, Gabriel, Laurence, and Litheroy. it would be hostile towards Flowers. >I would also agree that this is someone with a Master or higher distinction >and a whole load of extra's. [snip] agreed; if the Angel of Pain does not possess several Master-level Distinctions, i'd be surprised. -=|horsefly|=- "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:20:11 -0500 From: "Michael Neal" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Rodemaker" To: Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 9:45 PM Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? > > The basic idea is for an Angel of Pain. A celestial who goes > > about causing pain. But not from some sadistic enjoyment of the job. > > Rather, because pain can be used to make a human (or even a celestial) a > > better person, to act more selflessly. I imagine it's a rather tricky > job.. > > I wish I had thought of this. Great idea! > > > Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite > > Add agreement and my vote for this to the others. > > > Which Superior? > > I'd also agree with David. The idea for Gabriel makes a certain amount sense > but I really think that David the way to go. On second thought Litheroy > could be interesting, as might Khalid Janus. This seems to fit so very well with the philosophical ideas behind The Wind. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:23:16 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's David Rodemaker wrote: > Also what would be the general reaction > that an animal would give to the Corp Song of Nimbus? Or the Celestial > version for that matter. Are animals of the "fear not" crowd or are they of > the "angels don't need to eat (us) and thus are wonderful and even more so > if they serve Jordi crowd?" I'd say they'd be fairly keen at intuiting the attitude of the celestial radiating his personality in such a manner. (Demons would probably cause them to go into fight-or-flight reflex, angels might send them scurrying or make them docile, depending.) > Why? Doesn't seem to make much sense for Jordi to actively keep other > Celestials from being able to interact with animals. Does this seem as off > the wall to everyone else as it does to me? First, remember that Jordi doesn't much trust other celestials, even (especially) his fellow Archangels. Yes, he would want to keep other celestials from being able to interact with animals. There are plenty of Laurentines who would probably think it's really cool to get dogs and cats fighting demons for the Lord, angels of Judgment who'd love the surveillance possibilities of birds and rodents, angels of War who'd teach gorillas how to conduct REAL guerrilla warfare, etc. In other words, using animals as expendable footsoldiers in the War, exactly what Jordi wants to prevent. Aside from all that, Superiors who know secret Songs like to keep them secret on principle -- they're valuable resources. Archangels might be more likely to share such knowledge when it's necessary, but if someone convinces Jordi that communicating with animals is really vital for the War effort, Jordi would send one of his OWN Servitors to do that, not teach one of his secret Songs so some other angel can go meddling with beasts. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:59:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1592 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:54:56 -0400From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? >>Rather, because pain can be used to make a human (or >>even a celestial) a better person, to act more >>selflessly. I imagine it's a rather tricky job.. >Very. If you want to make things interesting, you >could have the previous holder have Fallen. Hmmm. I'd go the other way: make the angel in question someone that Redeemed. A Punisher who realized (thanks to Mr. Emptiness) that he/she was actually legitimately serving Heaven by strengthening the weak, and thus was able to recapture its Elohite nature, would be real fun to encounter. BTW, I think that David's the obvious choice, too, which is why I'd make this Word subject to Flowers. After all, Novalis isn't against violence, just unnecessary violence (pain is an excellent teacher, and a little can do wonders). An Angel of Pain needs has to be precise, and loving, or he/she/it's dead meat. You want someone with a handle on love, go talk to Novy. Besides, she'd move Heaven and Earth to grab this Word, just so it doesn't get in the hands of AAs whose idea of testing something's strength is to whale on it with a jackhammer... But that's just me. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Thinking Outside the Box __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:56:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? > The basic idea is for an Angel of Pain. What kind of Pain? Angel of Growing Pains (an Elohim of Christopher) Angel of Ignoring Pain to Succeed at a Task (Malakim of David) Demon of No Pain No Gain (Balseraph of Nybbas) There are many types of pain; can you narrow it down a little? O. ===== ** Humanity's strongest impulse is the desire to edit other people's writing. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 01:06:30 CST From: "Justin Buhler" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? >Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite. This just seems so >obvious. They have the perfect mindset for handling the sort of chore that >being the Angel of Pain would entail. But I'd like to here other >suggestions certainly. I could, in my eyes, see a Malakim as having the job. After all, who else can you trustto take the pressure and come so close to the borderline between good and bad than a Malakim? After all, if it gets out of hand, they can be ratified. I also considered a Seraphim, as again you need someone detached from humanity to do the job, otherwise they get too close to their subjects. Ofanim, Cherubim, and Mercurian are out, Cherubs and Mercs due to their closeness with mankind, an Ofanim because of the fact that they're more speedy and fun loving, and pain just doesn't seem to sound like something that would keep an Ofsnite's engines buning. >Which Superior? This..well, I'm thinking David because of his whole >'adversity makes people stronger' shtick. I could also see Janus as a >potential candidate, because pain usualy leads to change. But that seems a >stretch. Any ideas? I think David would go well for the job, however, Gabriel could also fit in, as could Yves. Depends on how the pain is manifested. >Forces? How many forces would an Angel with this word have? I'm still >waiting on my copy of the GMG, so I'm not sure about how to assign forces >for words and such as that. I believe Liber Casterellum had within it the specific amounts of Forces you should give to specific Words. I for one do not have the book (Unfortunately), but I did flip through it and noted that section. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 03:06:25 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? At 11:56 PM -0700 4/24/00, O. S. Kerr wrote: > > The basic idea is for an Angel of Pain. > >What kind of Pain? > >Angel of Growing Pains (an Elohim of Christopher) >Angel of Ignoring Pain to Succeed at a Task (Malakim of David) >Demon of No Pain No Gain (Balseraph of Nybbas) > >There are many types of pain; can you narrow it down a little? I should think the former two would be "subwords" under the Angel of Pain, as per the GMG. So, I personally *wouldn't* narrow it down. The Angel of Pain would be a major Word-bound. The Angel of Ignoring Pain to Succeed at a Task would be a relatively minor Word-bound with certain "ties" to the Angel of Pain as well as his Superior (certainly his Word would strengthen the Word of Pain as well as the Word of Stone), and the Angel of Pricking Oneself on Thorns would be a very minor angel who strengthened the Word of Pain somewhat and the Word of Flowers somewhat and even the Word of Thorns somewhat. I kind of like the idea of the Angel of Pain, and would imagine it was a major Word with a Major Word-bound holding it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:36:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? > The Angel of Pain would be a major Word-bound. Problem: a Word-bound is going to promote his Word as much as possible. Pain, like Fire or War, is a truly massive idea, with implications from stubbing one's toe to being burned alive. Is the AoP a lesser Archangel? Do the positive aspects of Pain outweigh or balance out the negative? Since pain is endemic to most aspects of human endeavor, should there be many celestials with Words relating to, but not subordinate to, Pain (my previous examples: Growing Pains, etc.)? ===== ** Humanity's strongest impulse is the desire to edit other people's writing. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 03:44:08 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? At 12:36 AM -0700 4/25/00, O. S. Kerr wrote: > > The Angel of Pain would be a major Word-bound. > >Problem: a Word-bound is going to promote his Word as much as >possible. Pain, like Fire or War, is a truly massive idea, with >implications from stubbing one's toe to being burned alive. > >Is the AoP a lesser Archangel? Archangel versus non-Archangel is something the Seraphim Council decides, remember. If he's an Archangel, it's because he's been *made* one. Yes, it is a massive Word. But there are many Massive Words out there. I submit the Seraphim Council would want some of them actively promoted -- especially a Word like Pain, which needs to have as many angelic interpretations promoted as possible, lest the demons dominate Pain for their purposes. >Do the positive aspects of Pain outweigh or balance out the >negative? I think they can. It's all in the interpretation. >Since pain is endemic to most aspects of human endeavor, should >there be many celestials with Words relating to, but not >subordinate to, Pain (my previous examples: Growing Pains, >etc.)? Yes. But those Words, while their holders may not *serve* the Angel of Pain, *would* strengthen the Word of Pain. It's the nature of the beast. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:23:28 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Ethereal Song of Tongues artifact (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) I know this subject has already been discussed (many times) on the list: Celestials in animal vessels can - in canon - talk (more or less). Now I don't like the idea of a talking panther (one of my players has a panther), so I get the other players make a perception roll to understand what the animal is trying to make them understand (see the body language thread). Now that I think about it, would an Intelligence roll be more appropriate? Misunderstandings can lead to funny situations, believe me! Again, it is NOT CANON. Anyway, this player wants to learn the Ethereal Song of Tongues in order to communicate correctly. But he doesn't like the idea of spending 1 essence every time he wants to say something to someone. So I was wondering: is there any canon artifact (I don't have the Liber Reliquarum at the office) that could help? Say, the owner could attune the artifact to one person (for 1 essence), creating a constant one-way telepathic link or something like that (the panther does understand what humans say, of course). If no, how many points should it cost? It could be a nice artifact idea (if it doesn't already exist!). Different versions can exist (more expensive) that allow the user to create a separate one-way link for each level of the artifact. Kind of one-way micro-transmitters, if you see what I mean... (ShadowRun players surely will) Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:42:20 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's > I think that the Corporeal version could work also, esp for a Virtuoso. I would say the Corporeal version of Tongues allows someone to understand and make him/herself understood in any language using words (I don't think it's canon). Therefore human, I guess. Animals use a mixture of sounds, body language and agressive/friendly behaviour to communicate, but they don't use words. So I wouldn't allow animal-human communication with that. > Can you buy a animal language? Maybe learn it from a Servitor of Jordy? > If you have an Dog vessel can you speak with other Dogs? In canon, I'd say only if you have the corresponding choir attunment from Jordy. Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:13:48 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? <<< Problem: a Word-bound is going to promote his Word as much as possible. (...) Is the AoP a lesser Archangel? Do the positive aspects of Pain outweigh or balance out the negative? >>> Pain is a great Word, you're right. The AoP would therefore be a major Servitor (of David, I think). At least a second distinction (can't remember the title). He could be about to be made Archangel (a possible campaign here). Now here's an idea: since this is you're first campaign, you might want to stick to this character. Get your players help him become an Archangel. Make them his favored servitors. (first campaign). Introduce them to the highest ranked of his Servitors: a weird kind of scary, but very good at his job angel. Make this Servitor fall by enjoying his job a bit too much - Pain, like Fire, is a dangerous Word -. (second campaign). Make him become a Demon Prince (of Torture), gain power, and strike against his former Superior (and therefore against the players). (third campaign). The AoP will be very affected by this, so will your players, and you can have many many more campaigns following a consistent thread. Yes, this is a remake of the Fall of Belial, and it could lead the AoP to the very same state of mind than Gabriel. But one of the most important things for a GM (IMHO) is to get the players involved and interested in the story. If you just throw them into a plot that doesn't really concern them, they will have fun, sure, but they won't... how can I put it... love it. Hope it helps, Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:15:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? > Make him become a Demon Prince (of Torture) I'd say Suffering, but otherwise it's a sound idea... O. ===== ** Humanity's strongest impulse is the desire to edit other people's writing. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:25:00 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? At 12:13 PM +0100 4/25/00, Laurent wrote: ><<< Problem: a Word-bound is going to promote his Word as much as possible. >(...) Is the AoP a lesser Archangel? Do the positive aspects of Pain >outweigh or >balance out the negative? >>> > >Pain is a great Word, you're right. The AoP would therefore be a >major Servitor >(of David, I think). At least a second distinction (can't remember the title). >He could be about to be made Archangel (a possible campaign here). Interesting. This is the substance of a very different sort of campaign seed I'm working up right now, where players meet and interact with a powerful Kyriotate Servitor of Novalis who's also been IST Jordi, and who is now up for the Word of Life. Fully developed, this would be a series of ascensions up to Archangel of Life, in counterpart to Saminga, and campaign seeds to follow.... So, really similar in concept, totally different in execution.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:19:12 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? At 5:15 AM -0700 4/25/00, O. S. Kerr wrote: > > Make him become a Demon Prince (of Torture) > >I'd say Suffering, but otherwise it's a sound idea... Or even Pain itself, especially given how new the Archangel of Pain would be. So we'd *really* get a view of that symphonic "harmony" between the two of them.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:46:59 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? > Or even Pain itself, especially given how new the Archangel of Pain would be. I prefere Suffering. Even if the AA and the DP don't have the exact same Words (Pain & Suffering), the conflict stays the same. And Suffering would be a better description of the evil side of the word (IMO). <<< players meet and interact with a powerful Kyriotate Servitor of Novalis who's also been IST Jordi, and who is now up for the Word of Life. Fully developed, this would be a series of ascensions up to Archangel of Life, in counterpart to Saminga >>> Now that's another powerful Word!! Seems VERY interesting. Any writeup yet? I'd love to read it... Anybody got my email about an Ethereal Song of Tongues artifact? I haven't received it yet myself... Probably this bouncy thing again... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:48:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? I second Maurice Lane's suggestion that the Angel of Pain be a redeemed Habbalite (therefore now Elohite) working for Novalis (exactly to make sure the pain is put to compassionate use). Given the C.S. Lewis motivation behind the concept, Yves also makes sense, since the Angel uses the pain to raise the victim's/patient's moral awareness. (Davidic or Gabrielite Angels of Pain would, I think, tend to slide into using pain retributively.) By the way, for the internal story of Lewis's own pain on the death of his wife, see "A Grief Observed," which he first published under a pseudonym (and which I first read under the pseudonym, all the while thinking, "Gee, this sounds like Lewis"). I doubt that you'll find it under the pseudonym today, but it was "N. W. Clerk." For Lewis's general thought on pain and its place in the spiritual life, and the Problem of Evil in general, see his very popular book "The Problem of Pain." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 06:54:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? > I prefere Suffering. Even if the AA and the DP don't have the > exact same Words > (Pain & Suffering), the conflict stays the same. And Suffering > would be a better > description of the evil side of the word (IMO). Exactly! Pain can be good, suffering cannot. O. ===== ** Humanity's strongest impulse is the desire to edit other people's writing. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:03:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Souls in Hell Sean McCarthy wrote: > Now here's a sticky set of questions. Why are human souls going > to Hell? When did they start going to Hell? Where did the souls > of the humans at the same time as the Eden experiment go? > > Is it part of the Divine Plan that human souls go to Hell if > they've been Bad(tm)? Are they simply floating downward because > there is place there? Or are the Demon Princes and/or Lucifer > pulling souls? Does something about Dark Tethers enable this? Lucifer & Co. pull souls, I think. According to C.S. Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters" (cited in the bibliography of the main book, and therefore a bit authoritative, though certainly not canon), if a soul is selfish enough, Heaven simply loses interest in it, leaving it vulnerable to demons, who want it for "food." In IN terms, they want it as an Essence source, and sometimes for Forces to strip off. (Also useful as slave labor.) If Hell wasn't pulling souls (if, say, Michael had annihilated Lucifer and all or most Princes, so there were few or no demons), there could still be damned, excluded human souls, probably wandering the Ethereal Plane or the blank gap in the Celestial Plane where Hell would have been. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:06:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Unholy Sefirot The Unholy Sefirot are also called the Qlippoth, or Husks, as in the empty shells of their holy versions. For information on them by a serious Cabalist, see: http://www.cadmon.org/cm/colin/kabbalah.html http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/nok/q5.txt Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:32:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 7 At 2:21 AM +0000 4/25/00, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:02:22 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>At 2:44 PM -0700 4/24/00, Maurice Lane wrote: > [snip] >>>Kyriotate of Destiny >>>Petitioner for the Word of Holding Your Breath Until >>>You Get A Peace Faction Superiors Book >> >>What, you mean "Peace and Nature"? I'd had that slated as S7. >>May take a while. > Jean, Novalis, Eli... Christopher? i'd like to include Jordi in that, but something makes me think he's not in the peace faction (why do i remember Jordi in the war faction?).... Jordi, Novalis, Eli, Christopher. I was thinking, give Christopher fewer pages than the fourth-part suggested, and maybe devote 5 or so entirely to Eli-theories. Dunno. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay far out there. Way. Jordi in there as Nature. Eli & Novalis (duh O:> ) for peace, ditto Chris. Jean, I was thinking of for S5, w/ Janus, Marc, Litheroy & someone I forget... "Pillars & Wildcards" as working title. Oh! Right! Zadkiel! Who knows. Maybe I reverse those two or something. All depends on which authors I have available. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:41:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? At 4:11 AM +0000 4/25/00, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: >On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:45:29 -0500 David Rodemaker wrote: > someone (A. Milligan?) wrote: >>> The basic idea is for an Angel of Pain. BTW, poke around www.angel-mask.com... Or don't. Drat. She used to have her art up, with an absolutely fabulous piece titled "Angel of Pain." >>> Which choir? I'm thinking definitely an Elohite The only other one I might suggest would be Malakite. And Elohite is more entertaining. Just one short step to Habbie. O:> >>> Which Superior? I'm more with the David crowd, methinks. I'd have to think more on the word forces stuff. have baby wanting me gotta go. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:31:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In game Belief Vs Faith Christopher Lee wrote: > Surely this is the point! The D666 roll is specifically about > people involved in the War. Everybody is involved in the War, consciously or not. > I interpret the rules as meaning there is no place for everyday > mundanes to receive interventions. But vast numbers of everyday mundanes in the real world believe they HAVE received interventions, or the real-world equivalents. Few involved celestial voices or shining forms, but there are even a few of those. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:46:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > BTW, poke around www.angel-mask.com... Or don't. Drat. She used > to have her art up, with an absolutely fabulous piece titled > "Angel of Pain." Didn't see Angel of Pain, no, but there were several interesting masks on view, including angelic, demonic, and astronomical ones. Such masks would be nift props for a Live-Action In Nomine game, to indicate you'd gone celestial. (They are, roughly, domino-masks, the Lone-Ranger type, but sweep back over the temples in variously styled and colored wings.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:05:23 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: Ethereal Song of Tongues artifact (was Re: IN> Animal Language's) Laurent wrote: > Anyway, this player wants to learn the Ethereal Song of Tongues in order to > communicate correctly. But he doesn't like the idea of spending 1 essence every > time he wants to say something to someone. So I was wondering: is there any > canon artifact (I don't have the Liber Reliquarum at the office) that could > help? Say, the owner could attune the artifact to one person (for 1 essence), > creating a constant one-way telepathic link or something like that (the panther > does understand what humans say, of course). If no, how many points should it > cost? I don't have LR with me, darnit, or I could give a more definitive answer to this. But a few point to keep in mind for the cost: * It's a relic, so it must be hand(paw)-held and used obviously unless you want to put in some convenience features. Wearable is probably best and make the shape into something easy like a collar. * Kyriotates would probably want Summonable... others would find it useful, as well * A limited form of speech modification (make current vessel's voice clear) would not MORE expensive than a standard Song. Less so, actually. Therefore you can justify a longer duration (more than one hour per point of CD). A telepathic link that lasts any appreciable amount of time would be more expensive than standard since a secret communication is quite useful. To make something like that have a long (or continuous) duration would be pricier than usual. You also seem to want to make it automatically work... that would up the price as well. Here's how I'd make it: Dedicated Reliquary/1 (2 points) Relic (Modified Corporeal Song of Tongues) (3 points) Disturbance:0 Essence:1 Duration: CD*Ethereal Forces Won't make the character universally understandable, just makes speech clear in whatever languages the character is using. Doesn't give any ability to understand languages, either. Features: Summonable, Wearable Options: *Use standard Song of Tongues (probably should increase size of Reliquary in that case because the duration is shorter) *Up the level of the artifact to make Song performance easier. If high enough, make it Self-Powered. *Use a special Numious Corpus to modify larynx - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:01:03 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? At 2:46 PM +0100 4/25/00, Laurent wrote: > >Now that's another powerful Word!! Seems VERY interesting. Any >writeup yet? I'd >love to read it... Working on it -- it's going to be a part of The Big Web Site Upgrade for my IN stuff. (Which I should just bite the bullet and do, but there's always more stuff I want to throw onto the site before I put it up, to make up for the crappy site I've had in place for so long....) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:00:39 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's > > Why? Doesn't seem to make much sense for Jordi to actively keep other > > Celestials from being able to interact with animals. Does this seem as off > > the wall to everyone else as it does to me? > > First, remember that Jordi doesn't much trust other celestials, even > (especially) his fellow Archangels. Yes, he would want to keep other > celestials from being able to interact with animals. There are plenty of > Laurentines who would probably think it's really cool to get dogs and > cats fighting demons for the Lord, angels of Judgment who'd love the > surveillance possibilities of birds and rodents, angels of War who'd > teach gorillas how to conduct REAL guerrilla warfare, etc. In other > words, using animals as expendable footsoldiers in the War, exactly what > Jordi wants to prevent. That seems to be somewhat in conflict with the MRB. Allied: Novalis Associated: Eli, Yves Hostile: Jean, Marc, Michael (Though I think it should be Laurence instead) A quick perusal shows that in return: Allied: Eli, Novalis Associated: David, Michael, Laurence (By default) Hostile: Jean While it clearly states that other Angels who don't work for him consider him insane I think that the only Superior who fits that mold would be Jean. (Yes I know what the Relations paragraph says but lets look at the above). It also staes that he is completely loyal to the Divine but completely hates the politics that consume the other angels. > Aside from all that, Superiors who know secret Songs like to keep them > secret on principle -- they're valuable resources. Archangels might be > more likely to share such knowledge when it's necessary, but if someone > convinces Jordi that communicating with animals is really vital for the > War effort, Jordi would send one of his OWN Servitors to do that, not > teach one of his secret Songs so some other angel can go meddling with > beasts. I think that my point was that it didn't make sense for that Song to be secret. It seems really tailor made for other celestials to let them interact with animals. What I would like to see to make that an uncommon Song and give Jordi a secret Song that makes more sense (at least to me...) David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:26:18 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? (Longish response) > >> Which Superior? > [snip] > >Yes, Khalid could work very well. Faith and Pain seem to go hand and hand > >quite often esp. with the CS Lewis ref. that you are going with. My vote is > >now for Khalid. > hmm, i'll have to read _Shadowlands_ for a better concept of this character, but if one presumes it was this angel that afflicted Job, i'm thinking either Stone or Wind, if the Angel of Pain even *has* a Superior. i can't speak for Word Forces, and have thus snipped them as a question, but i'm keeping David's comment about pain in relation to those Word Forces for my next point: Buy the GMG the Angel of Pain is not someone else's Servitor, though it may have been long ago. instead, it's a Minor Superior of its own, with attendant Rites, Distinctions, and Servitor Attunements I could go with this but that seems like it may be a bit beyond what the original concept was. I actually like this idea a great deal but it might be a bit much to create a new Superior for your first game. I know how much trouble I went to put together the version of Azreal that we use in Kiara's campaign (she helped alot also of course) We've had a lot of fun with the concept of the Firstborn in the Host and the politics that go into being one of them. As we see it the Firstborn that are still around tend to be really powerful and highly respected. Even if they are not Superiors they remember from before the Fall, before the Superiors system was really "in place", these are the people that can address a Superiour by name and not get slapped. With the right Word are more frightening than a Superior. Heck you'll never fight a Superior (probably) but the thought of running across Rogziel, Angel of Knives (We put it at a 20 Force Word which is a bit questionable but we figure that he has broadened out the meaning of his Word alot) First of Micheals Malakim, and "first amoung equals" of the five remaining Angels of Destruction should scare the bejeebers out a PC, heck even running across this guy should worry them. Oh, did I mention that he is a former Servitor of Destiny who has retained his Seraphic resonance due to his Master of Divine Knowledge distinction? I picture these really old celestials as being absolutely the most frightening thing a PC can run up against short of a major Ethereal that no one has heard of because thay are so alien to the thought processes of the newer Angels. That's sort of why I like Eos so much, he's a real contradiction in Kiara's campaign and it drives people nuts. Does anyone want to see what we came up with for the Angels of Destruction? It was an interesting exercise that has worked pretty well in our campaign. It's short so I can either post to the list or email direct. Votes? > >I would also agree that this is someone with a Master or higher distinction > >and a whole load of extra's. [snip] > agreed; if the Angel of Pain does not possess several Master-level Distinctions, i'd be surprised. If a Word-Bound than yes if a Superior than it's a moot point. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:00:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Pain? (Longish response) David Rodemaker wrote: > Does anyone want to see what we came up with for the Angels of > Destruction? It was an interesting exercise that has worked > pretty well in our campaign. It's short so I can either post to > the list or email direct. Votes? I'd be interested, and it sounds like perfectly acceptable list material. Please post. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:01:25 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Firstborn (was Angel of Pain) >We've had a lot of fun with the concept of the Firstborn in the Host Hey, great minds think alike. I've used this too (though I call them the Elder Angels... hmm, think I like your term better). Yeah, IMC they're all very very tough and intimidating, near-Superiors. Only two exceptions so far: Eos and whatsername who used to be Lucifer's housekeeper, the sad angel who still comes into the Cathedral of Light to dust. >That's sort of why I like Eos so much, he's a real contradiction in Kiara's >campaign and it drives people nuts. Well, bless your heart. I'm very glad to hear that someone picked him up. How's he doing? >Does anyone want to see what we came up with for the Angels of Destruction? >It was an interesting exercise that has worked pretty well in our campaign. >It's short so I can either post to the list or email direct. Votes? Oh mais oui. IMC I have _an_ Angel of Destruction, who has a number of servitors (the Destroying Angels, of course), but so far he's been a rather shadowy and peripheral character. Doug M. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1593 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.