From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 1 09:40:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03025 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 09:40:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA11296 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 2000 09:38:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:38:56 -0500 Message-Id: <200005011438.JAA11296@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1601 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1601 In this digest: Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> invictus (was: chico latino) Supplements and the IN Universe [was: Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm] Fwd: Re: IN> Player mistakes Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements IN> ADMIN: The Posters list... IN> Paper & Stone (Re: Ethereals in the Celestial Realm) IN> Demon of Cancer (was Re:IN> hi all, I'm back) Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements IN> Celestial Politics RE: IN> Celestial Politics Re: IN> Celestial Politics Re: IN> Anime Angel Sketches RE: IN> Celestial Politics Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> chico latino Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 10:04:39 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm "Matthew W." wrote: > Then again, maybe I'm just tired of sitting down with each new player I > get and saying, "Forget everything you read in the CPG, APG, IPG and > GMG. You don't know where any soul will go, why they go there, how > ethereals exist, how ethereals get essence, how they are killed, how the > Demon Princes and Archangels get their powers, what a Superior is > capable of doing, who all the word-bound are, where anything in the > Marches is, and what the real story behind the Fall is. You have to > *learn* that in character and through playing." Most of what's in the APG, IPG, CPG, and GMG is deliberately left open-ended, and of course, the standard disclaimer about changing whatever you want always applies. The problem is, for every rant about not wanting things "set in stone," there's another rant about the writer's of In Nomine "refusing to answer any questions" and leaving important issues unsettled. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:51:10 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm At 10:04 AM -0500 4/30/00, David Edelstein wrote: > > >Most of what's in the APG, IPG, CPG, and GMG is deliberately left >open-ended, and of course, the standard disclaimer about changing >whatever you want always applies. > >The problem is, for every rant about not wanting things "set in stone," >there's another rant about the writer's of In Nomine "refusing to answer >any questions" and leaving important issues unsettled. Besides, I'm one of those who believes that denser, richer material improves the game, especially when it's not necessary to play it in the first place. When I'm working on the histories of NPCs, now, I hit the timeline in the Game Master's Guide essentially all the time. (It's one of those supplements I have at home and at the office), for instance. Now, that Timeline's hardly necessary, either for those NPCs or for In Nomine in general. Day to day 21st Century American Celestial Life isn't any more affected by the death of Raphael in 1008 than day to day 21st Centuray Human Life is affected by the death of Richard the Lionhearted in 1199. But its useful information for me in my game, because I know that a celestial who was alive in 500 AD would have been aware of Raphael and Raphael's history. And it spares me the need to write up a timeline of my own, which may be incomplete. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:00:09 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> RE: Players and Supplements An easy way to keep players from knowing to much about the world is to change everything completely. Just because something is "canon" doesn't neccesarily mean that it's a good idea or that it will fit into your campaign. There are plenty of things that have come out in supplements that I find simply stupid, and so I don't use them. That way, the players, like their characters, think they know more than they do and get really surprised when everything doesn't work out as planned. Example: I really hate the way that In Nomine deals with the Fall. Having mankind created, then Eden, then the War and finally the Fall makes no sense Biblically, theologically, or even as a good story. Personally I like the way John Milton has it go in "Paradise Lost" (which I consider "canon" for my campaign), where you have the Exaltation of the Son, then the War, then the Fall, then the Creation of the world, and finally, the Fall of Man seduced by Satan. Since none of my players are actually going to go out and read all ten books of "Paradise Lost," I'm perfectly save using anything there. The people who write the game are basing their work on people like Milton, Dante, and Thomas Aquinas. I think it's much more flavorful to base campaigns on the original sources rather than the watered down, carefully explained version that we get through sourcebooks. Daedalus P.S. No offense is meant, of course, to you sourcebook writers out there. You do a ton of good work, but I just get annoyed when people take "canon" to mean "the way it has to be." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:55:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> invictus (was: chico latino) Do you have the etymology for this one? I believed it to mean "The Unconquered." O. - --- MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 04/30/2000 3:48:07 AM Pacific Daylight > Time, > esp.horsepie@btinternet.com writes: > > > oh, and seeing as my latin's about > > up to par with my algebra, i was hoping one of you > latinates could tell me > > the "invictus" part actually means > > > > > > liam > Invictus means 'the Conqueror.' The cult of Sol Invictus would > be the cult of > the Conquering Sun.... All I remember is that they were a > soldiers' mystery > religion, based on some of the bastardized Greco-egyptian > Re-Helios mixes. > > Mark > ===== ** Lead Playtester for Storyteller: The Colon ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:33:10 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Supplements and the IN Universe [was: Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm] personally, I have no problems with my players reading APG, IPG, or any other book with the exception of the GMG (it's the _Game Master's_ Guide, not a player's guide). my reason? simple: Angels and Demons are created fully grown with knowledge already implanted in them. they would know from the start the story of the Fall (at least whatever version is taught in their plane). They would know a majority of the major celestial events. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:01:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Player mistakes >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [John "The Apocalypse"Kuan ] >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:51:17 +0800 >From: John "The Apocalypse"Kuan >Subject: Re: IN> Player mistakes > >On Subject of creating a high power campaign - I just started a new one , but my >players have just shifted from the Hack and Slash RPG's [whose names I withold :D]. >What should a player emphasise in their characters - and how would a GM such as >yourselfs go about encouraging that? > >High Calibre is a far road for me - I need a map :D > >John Kuan > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:09:20 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: "An easy way to keep players from knowing to much about the world is to change everything completely. Just because something is "canon" doesn't neccesarily mean that it's a good idea or that it will fit into your campaign." I think this is a really important caveat. I personally don't worry too much about what my players read (I don't GM IN, but this holds true for most games, IME), because they know perfectly well that the books are source material, not formulas. Making assumptions based on out of character knowledge drawn from sourcebooks is risky at best, suicidal at worst. I'm under no compulsion to make the universe conform to their expectations (and everyone finds it far more interesting if they don't...) Which is not to say I object to canonical campaigns. In fact, I prefer to make as much use as possible of a book I've shelled out thirty or fourty bucks for ^_^ (I live in canada. Everything is imported) But a player who's willing to step into the line of fire because wraiths are incapable of causing relic guns to manifest corporeally is very probably a player who's going to be making up a new character pretty quickly (this is a stupid example, but it'll do until something better occurs to me). In worlds like IN's or WoD, there are no certainties. Which is why I like 'em. (mind you, my players are pretty excellent anyway, so I doubt this would be a problem even if we did follow canon slavishly. We all enjoy it more, though, when there's an element of doubt. And I did forbid my players to read the Baali book. So go figure.) Cheers, -Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:18:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN: The Posters list... Remember, if you want to send email from an address that is not subscribed to either the main list or the digest, you must... send email to: With the body of the message containing: s u b s c r i b e in_nomine_posters-l desired@address.here (Where the s u b-etc. word is compressed into the actual word!) If you are not sending this message from the address being s u b s c r i b e d, it will require my intervention to add. Allow about a day for that (hopefully less, but...). If you are sending from the desired address, it should get posting permission in about half an hour. - --Princess of List Admin - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:25:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Paper & Stone (Re: Ethereals in the Celestial Realm) At 10:04 AM -0500 4/30/00, David Edelstein wrote: >The problem is, for every rant about not wanting things "set in stone," >there's another rant about the writers of In Nomine "refusing to answer >any questions" and leaving important issues unsettled. What he said, with amplification. Why do you think the FAQ is so long? Indeed, most of the books after the Rev Cycle were done in part because people were saying, "Hey, what about X?" Heck, the APG & IPG _have_ FAQ answers in them... (With errata for the stuff in the APG.) There are GMs who don't have the time or energy to piece together "how the world should work" from the hints and implications in the main book. It's easier to ignore canon you don't want in your game than to try to make it up for yourself. So if you're pressed for time and want more detail about various Superiors, buy the Superiors books! Heck, get four of your friends and split the cost -- you can cut the book apart and get your favorite sections, splitting the actual book as well! - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2000 00:26:50 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: IN> Demon of Cancer (was Re:IN> hi all, I'm back) On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 00:16:48 -0500 (CDT) tomtimb@ionet.net wrote: >On 28 Apr 2000 10:19:29 -0000 horsefly@ghostmail.net wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:00:29 -0500 (CDT) tomtimb@ionet.net wrote: [Demon of Cancer and who it would serve] >> Death, and just to make it a stronger word, i'd say it's the Demon of >Cancer. the Band is obvious: it's a Shedite. >Actually, was thinking of a Cal with a variant means of using his entropy that's certainly a more original idea than my own. for an idea of what i had in mind, imagine a Shedite able to possess its hosts, use the Song of Corporeal Form or one of the Entropy Songs (can't remember which would be the most useful here)--one of those four, at any rate--to inflict its host with cancer with NO Disturbance. it then gleefully moves to the next host. that's the special Demon of Cancer Attunement or Distinction as i see it. >field. Instead of doing just raw damage, the CoD's entropy field, when >focused, causes damage to the cellular DNA of his target, which causes the >cell to become cancerous and start its career as a growth. Resistance sort of a "delayed damage effect," then, eh? i think if i were running the use of that Resonance, i wouldn't deal direct damage to the targe, but simply use the CD as a guide to how large and rampant the new cancer is. >backlash from those he failed to affect, with the resultant self-damage when >he absorbed his own energy to avoid Dissonance, has made him one of the >uglier demons, since these "mortal" diseases can live in him, but can't kill >him. Since the movie came out "All That Jazz" came out, he loves to use a i'm missing the reference here. >White Lady vessel to reveal himself; a nice friendly, familiar even, image >that gulls the victims into allowing him to approach unresisted. uhh, why would the cancer necessarily have to be obvious on the vessal the Demon of Cancer wears? the idea that of "a nice, friendly, familiar" person is great for just about any Celestial seeking a vessal, but i don't see the Demon of Cancer believing this form essential to its duties. i do think for an ironic twist that it would favor Doctor and Nurse vessals, striking down the *healthy people* who visit hospitals to see their sick family/friends. [Rites] good show, there. i'm especially taken with the evil of the +2 Rite. that perfectly captures the nature of this demon. [Malignus' Servitors] i don't think the Demon of Cancer is yet powerful enough to command Servitors of its own. Cancer is more long-term than Saminga's impatience usually demands; he only tolerates Malignus because it's so successful at what it does (it probably has the Balseraph of Death Attunement as well as other bells & whistles). besides, at this turn-of-the- 21st-century age, with humans combatting Malignus' Word so fervently and in some cases effectively, i think it just doesn't have the caliber to grant Band Attunements. still, your Shedim Attunement was especially clever. >> >Who would the Angel of Catching Diseases Before They Can Become Incurable/ >> >Spread Too Far serve? [snip] >> Cherub of Protection IST Destiny. >I like this, but am also drawn to Mercurians and Flowers. But the Destiny >attunement for Cherubim is just too good a fit with his job to let it go by. >Maybe Ch. of Fl. IST Destiny, with the CoD attunement? i think of Flowers more in terms of peace, love, and compassion; i'm also biased against Novalis and her Servants as mostly air-headed. besides that prejudice of my own, i think the Angel of Catching Diseases Before They Spread Too Far (there's gotta be a more economical way of saying that) would fall squarely in Zadkiel's service, working side-by-side with Yves. to compare Malignus and Salvadore (Angel of CDBTSTF), the Demon of Cancer has it much easier. all it really has to do is blight humans with cancer and watch the fun. if it's industrious, it might go for that +2 Rite, and if it really works hard, it can make the entire family of the afflicted turn upon one another or turn from Heaven in despair, but it can be fairly lazy if it wants. Salvadore has to be ever vigilant, and probably does rely on a host of human contacts and information networks. in service to Destiny, it also looks to make certain the afflicted (and this is of "afflicted of any disease," so it has LOTS of legwork here...) has reached his or her Destiny before they die; also it must inspire those caught up in their self-pity and mourning who haven't done all they can for this world and heaven, giving them a kick in the pants to get their acts together. much more work for Salvadore, but so much the rewards, too. [recent hospital visit and lots of email] >> i'll keep praying for you. >thanks -- this is as appreciated as the suggestions. Besides, I've got it you're welcome, friend. truly, God bless you and be with your family in this time of crisis. -=|horsefly|=- If I ever wanted to say 'gwrthwynebiad', I'd probably kill myself by choking on my own tongue. =) - --John Karakash ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:42:14 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Our spies report that on 05:00 PM 4/30/00 -0400, Daedalus3D@aol.com said: >... Since none of my players are actually going to go out and read all >ten books of "Paradise Lost," I'm perfectly save using anything there. The >people who write the game are basing their work on people like Milton, Dante, >and Thomas Aquinas. I think it's much more flavorful to base campaigns on >the original sources rather than the watered down, carefully explained >version that we get through sourcebooks. Wow! I envy you in having players who don't read the classics. I could never get away with that. :( Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:58:31 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > At 3:21 PM -0400 4/29/00, Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > >> I totally disagree with the idea that demons wouldn't spread the >> Heresy that God wasn't always God. For one, it means that they >> could actually win The War. If God is not the absolute power in >> the universe, then that blows holes >>through the "unequal" nature >> of Heaven and Hell. > > Agreed there. However, if God were an overpowered Ethereal, formed > out of the worship of humans, then humans predated all Celestials. > Humans *created* them out of their dreams and whims. > > Which means that a Demon's most central belief -- the very core > belief that led to the Fall -- is wrong: humans *are* in fact more > important than Angels (and Demons). God is no better than any other > Ethereal, and God was the one who made the Angels, who Fell into the > Demons. [puts on his cynical Gamester hat] "Jesus L. Ron Christ, don't tell me you haven't got it figured!" "Look, the way it goes down is that a body is either with you, or against you, or dead. And you say anything and do anything to move everyone from the second and into categories one and three. Capiche?" "No donut? Then let me spell it out for you, kid. "So on the one hand you have the extremely numerous angelic Host, all of whom firmly believe that the omnipotent ruler of creation wants them to cut you open and feed you your liver. And on the other, you have a gang of jumped-up little gods, all pissy and resentful about Uriel waxing them. "Now, when push comes to purge, and the Boss wants results yesterday, you've got two choices. First, you can heroically throw yourself up against deviationists and counterrevolutionaries, and earn a two-line mention in the Hades _Worker_ about your heroic martyrdom for the Party. "Or, you can mosey on over to your friendly neighborhood spider-god, and tell him what a pal he is, how terrible it is that Jehovah robbed him of his rightful godhood, how revenge against Him would be sweet, and how you happen to know this gang of angels and what they're scheming, and that out of the pure brotherhood of the oppressed you're willing to cut him in on the plan to thwart 'em. So when it all comes down he's the one who dies for the cause, instead of you. "What if he's right? Am I hearing correctly? So *what* if he's right? Why the devil should you care, as long as it's a useful handle? By Solomon's sixteen-inch tool, I can't believe you represent the quality of fink getting promoted these days...." - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:12:43 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements At 5:00 PM -0400 4/30/00, Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: >Example: I really hate the way that In Nomine deals with the Fall. Having >mankind created, then Eden, then the War and finally the Fall makes no sense >Biblically, theologically, or even as a good story. Personally I like the >way John Milton has it go in "Paradise Lost" (which I consider "canon" for my >campaign), where you have the Exaltation of the Son, then the War, then the >Fall, then the Creation of the world, and finally, the Fall of Man seduced by >Satan. Since none of my players are actually going to go out and read all >ten books of "Paradise Lost," I'm perfectly save using anything there. The >people who write the game are basing their work on people like Milton, Dante, >and Thomas Aquinas. I think it's much more flavorful to base campaigns on >the original sources rather than the watered down, carefully explained >version that we get through sourcebooks. Which will make for an excellent game, I'm absolutely sure, and is perfectly both within your rights as GM and within the flavor of your game. However, that's *not* what the Canon game is based on, and it's not a game I'd find very interesting to participate in unless I had an exceptional GM. The basis of your campaign is that Milton's interpretation of source materials (scriptures, et al) is *correct,* and that therefore the Bible is correct, the Christian view is correct, and so on and so forth. Frankly, this is far more "explained" than the Sourcebooks, where a huge amount of theological questions *aren't* explained. Up to and including the divinity of Jesus Christ, the accuracy of Christianity versus Judaism versus Islam, the facts behind the Fall, and just what Lucifer and God talked about before the Fall took place. The game you're running is perfectly good for your game, but it simply doesn't translate to the same background. Instead, it's taking a specific viewpoint and theology, affirming it, and running with it. And I think *that* would be too constricting and largely boring for a role playing game with "just who *is* right here" as a central tenant. There is, not to belabor the Sourcebook point, discussions of doing exactly what you've done in the Gamemaster's Guide, under the heading "In Nomine by the books." It's a perfectly legitimate way to play (by the best ruling -- it can be fun for your game). But it's not as legitimate a way to either evangelize the game or spread common information to many people at once. That's the point of Sourcebooks, you see. To give a common background and theme, and elaborate on that theme, in a way that lets individual GMs pick and choose what works for their games and build campaigns around them. Also, for the record, I think IN's coping with the Fall makes a ton of sense -- because it gives logical reasons for the Rebellion and leaves open the possibility that the demons are *right.* But then, I open my own game with a basic principle: the Angels and Demons themselves aren't sure about the CDaU stuff, so by God *nothing* the *humans* ever wrote got it anywhere near right. And therefore I'm free to reveal whatever I want about the Truth. >P.S. No offense is meant, of course, to you sourcebook writers out there. >You do a ton of good work, but I just get annoyed when people take "canon" to >mean "the way it has to be." Sigh. Do we honestly need a 250 word essay in every sourcebook about how your milage may vary in your campaign? On the *other* hand, when we're discussing Frequently Asked Questions or even infrequently asked questions about In Nomine here on the list, do we honestly have to follow every answer with "unless of course you don't want to do it that way?" Or can we simply answer simple questions with simple answers, and be done with it? P.S. No offense is meant, of course, to people who don't like or use sourcebooks out there. It's a great way to play and having fun is the really important thing. I just get annoyed when people take "canon" to mean "repression." - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:06:55 CST From: "Justin Buhler" Subject: IN> Celestial Politics I just recently asked myself this question (For one reason or another) and still haven't been able to come up with a significant answer, so I thought I'd share my dilemna. What political affliations are the Celetial realms (Being Heaven and Hell) controlled by? Like is Heaven Democracy, Communism, Monarchy, Socialism? And what about Hell? Fascism, Monarchy, Tyranny, Democracy? I woudl also suggest putting soem deep thought into this, as some government types that don't necessarily work or suceed on Earth could just be right for Heaven or Hell. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:18:00 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> Celestial Politics Both are remarkably feudal. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 00:51:26 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Politics Justin Buhler wrote: > > I just recently asked myself this question (For one reason or another) and > still haven't been able to come up with a significant answer, so I thought > I'd share my dilemna. What political affliations are the Celetial realms > (Being Heaven and Hell) controlled by? > > Like is Heaven Democracy, Communism, Monarchy, Socialism? Depends (IMC at least) on where you go. At the tops of the groves resembles a free-wheeling Utopian Anarchy. In the catacombs of David it's a highly regimented, system resembling socialism that actually cares about everyone (and no not in the Orwellian scene... unless you want to villainies David). In the Eternal city it is a happy PsuedoDemocracy where no one is actually elected but the rules exist by concencious of the residents (with AAs getting more clout than others by sheer force of personality. consider the how many Demonicans would disagree if Dominic supported one issue publicly, though I think such public support of local intra-cathedral issues by AAs would be rare unless it interfered with a Superior). In Jordi's Savannah the best term is not applicable. Though in actually the true state of things is a Toleration system with the differences being based on how each Tyrant chooses to rule his cathedral. > And what about Hell? Fascism, Monarchy, Tyranny, Democracy? Again each and every principality in Hell is an absolute Monarchy with only the DP as sole dictator for eternity (exceptions being principalities with more than one DP, but those are usually divided into districts that each DP controls). However Shal-Marie resembles a decadent democracy. while the labs of Tartarus oddly resemble a Scientific Fundamentalism. Many places simply don't have anything resembling government such as Sheol or Abbadon. Trent Please forgive my horrid misspellings of the principalities. My book is in the car and it's raining. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:19:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Anime Angel Sketches I missed the original message. URL, please? Ochre __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 06:33:05 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: RE: IN> Celestial Politics - --On Sun, Apr 30, 2000 9:18 PM -0700 Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > Both are remarkably feudal. > > -Robert > In a sort of King Caspian vs. Vlad the Impaler way. Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:07:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > Example: I really hate the way that In Nomine deals with the Fall. Having > mankind created, then Eden, then the War and finally the Fall makes no sense > Biblically, theologically, or even as a good story. Personally I like the > way John Milton has it go in "Paradise Lost" (which I consider "canon" for my > campaign), where you have the Exaltation of the Son, then the War, then the > Fall, then the Creation of the world, and finally, the Fall of Man seduced by > Satan. Since none of my players are actually going to go out and read all > ten books of "Paradise Lost," I'm perfectly save using anything there. The > people who write the game are basing their work on people like Milton, Dante, > and Thomas Aquinas. I think it's much more flavorful to base campaigns on > the original sources rather than the watered down, carefully explained > version that we get through sourcebooks. I don't disagree with you that the background for the In Nomine universe seems so simple-minded that it's almost as if someone took elements of basic Theology 101, dropped them in a blender, hit "puree", filtered out anything that seemed hard, and plopped it in a book, designing a universe for ages 10 and Up. The history section of the APG is so bad that in places it's actually _wrong_, so check the Errata, cavaet emptor, etc. (I believe David made a heroic effort to try to push what was presented in the APG back into the realm of intelligent gaming with the religion section of the Game Master's Guide -- with a little help from the peanut gallery. I also believe he was successful.) But what In Nomine lacks is not theology. Most gaming systems limp along on a theological background that is so bad that it physically hurts to ponder it. What In Nomine lacks is _setting_. One can get away with the sheer inexplicable dorkiness of the "Eden Experiment" if it's tipped the other way with spectacular settings that blow your mind away. But the fact of reality is that there is a complete lack of setting material except for two poorly done cities and a few dozen specific locations in "You Are Here". There are no fleshed out Heaven, Hell, or Marches; there are no complete books on cities filled with black underbellies and towering cathedrals. Such is life. In Nomine is not a good game about examining theological views or the power of belief. (Planescape for AD&D is a _significantly_ better game for that kind of thing.) It's essentially a Supers game, except instead of the players being mutants with special powers, they're angels and demons with special powers. It's a _fantasy_ game -- nothing more. My take is this: if you wish to deconstruct In Nomine into useful components, and rebuild the game on a real theological foundation or rebuild the game based on literature, more power to you. That's great. I hope and encourage you to publish your working notes to the list so that others can enjoy them. And don't be deterred by the screams from the peanut gallery that "It's not canon." Who cares? Do your players care? Do you? Probably not. So just have fun with the game. That's the entire point of it, after all -- to have fun with your friends. (Personally, I believe the screams of "It's not canon" should be banned, and all who utter it should be whipped with a black licorish whip until they have big bruises, but that's just me.) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.pave-france.org/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. Steve: "When you get too weird for the disembodied voice, it's time to pack up and go home." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 10:07:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> chico latino From: http://hermes.richmond.edu/dave/Cults/mithras.html Mithras, the Sun God Mithraism was one of the most popular of the pagan cults in the Roman Empire. It was based on worship of the sun god, Mithras, who like any good pagan god, represented a wide variety of things. He was a god of light, war, justice, faith, and contract. Mithras is usually represented as a human and is associated with the Greek sun god Helios and the Roman god, Sol Invictus. History of Mithraism Mithras was originally an Indo-Iranian god of contract and friendship, beginning around the fifteenth century BC. The Persians incorporated him into their system of beliefs as a sun god, but he eventually lost popularity to the religion of Zoroaster, which did not allow worship of pagan gods. From about 330 BC to 100 AD, there is very little mention of Mithras in Persian or Greco-Roman literature. However, in the early second century AD, there was a rapid resurgence of popularity throughout the Roman Empire. This was probably spread in part by the army. Mithraism quickly became one of the most common religions in the Empire and remained popular until Constantine's support of Christianity in the early fourth century AD. The Central Myth: Mithras Slaying the Cosmic Bull The central myth of Mithraism is essentially a creation story involving the sacrifice of a bull, which is depicted in much of the Mithraic artwork (example at right). Mithras was born of the Earth in the shade of a sacred tree beside a sacred stream holding a knife and a torch. He received word via a Raven from the Sun god that he was to slay the mystic white bull. Upon slaying the bull, the bull became the moon, and Mithras' cape became the sky. Day and night began to alternate, animals and plants were created, the seasons began to change, and time was created. Along with all of this, the battle between good and evil, of which man is a part, began. At this point, Mithras climbed into the Sun god's chariot and began to ride it across the sky. Rituals and Interpretation Most of the Roman cults of Mithras shared the same rituals and organization. The initiates were divided into seven classes, and were supposed to work their way up through them. This ascension represented the rising of the soul after death. Meetings were generally held in subterranean caves, most of which would hold no more than a few hundred worshippers. Within the cult there appeared to be no particular hierarchy: all of the full members were apparently equal. Initiations may have involved baptism, purifications, and chastisement. Regular ceremonies probably included a meal. One of the main tenets of Mithraic theology is that the soul of man descended from heaven through the realms of the seven planets, taking on vices at each level. The goal of the individual is to liberate his soul from these vices and thus ascend to the realm of the stars. - ---- The article does not mention what I have read elsewhere -- that the cult was only open to men. Initiation into the first level (at least) was by baptism in the blood of a bull. Mithraic shrines often included a baptismal chamber built under a chamber for slaughtering a bull, with a grate in the floor, so the blood would rain down on the initiates. When he was part of the Zoroastrian pantheon, Mithras was one of the Seven Aspentas, seven archangel-like figures who were the top-level staff of Ormuzd, the sort-of-monotheistic Good God of Zoroastrianism, who was opposed by the Satan-like Ahriman, who had a staff of seven high-powered evil spirits. See also: http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html where, among other things, we're told: "The seven grades of Mithraism, were: Corax (Raven), Nymphus (Male Bride), Miles (Soldier), Leo (Lion), Peres (Persian), Heliodromus (Sun-Runner), and Pater (Father); each respective grade protected by Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, the Moon, the Sun, and Saturn." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 07:15:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > There are no fleshed out Heaven, Hell, or Marches; there > are no complete books on cities filled with black underbellies > and towering cathedrals. Such is life. Does this mean that there's no hope for the IN: Phoenix that I'm working on? :) O. ===== ** Lead Playtester for Storyteller: The Colon ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:27:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > Does this mean that there's no hope for the IN: Phoenix that I'm > working on? Only if I can get IN: Ishpeming. But it would be a very short book. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.pave-france.org/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. Steve: "When you get too weird for the disembodied voice, it's time to pack up and go home." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 10:37:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > 1) Do any ethreals actually remember a time when God was not God? > Or has God's control of the Symphony warped them until they aren't > sure? I haven't heard of any Ethereal claiming to remember the world before God. Ethereals who believe the Ethreal Heresy would say either that God's warped the Symphony so they can't trust their own memories, or that God re-wrote the actual past, so it is no longer the original past. But then, there are also Ethreals like the current Cupid, who believes himself to be the ancient Roman god of desire, but who is actually a much more recent reconstruction (detailed in the Liber Servitorum), so you don't go to Ethereals expecting reliability anyway. Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1601 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.