From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 1 12:03:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03091 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 12:03:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA19149 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 2000 12:02:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:02:24 -0500 Message-Id: <200005011702.MAA19149@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1602 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1602 In this digest: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm Re: IN> Celestial Politics Re: IN> Souls in Hell Re: IN> Anime Angel Sketches Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> DC Tethers... Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Suggestions for adjucating Ethereals... Re: IN> DC Tethers... Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Animal Language's Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:43:29 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements At 10:27 AM -0400 5/1/00, Emily Dresner wrote: > > Does this mean that there's no hope for the IN: Phoenix that I'm > > working on? > >Only if I can get IN: Ishpeming. But it would be a very short book. > What kinds of background is appropriate for IN, in the panel's opinion? I don't mean full out sourcebooks, so much as I mean true *setting* materials? Should there be organizational information -- like what businesses are really fronts for Trade, or War, or the Game, or Greed? Or information on cults and secret societies of humans and celestials? Or should there be more information on movements in celestial society? Or "campaign" style stuff? Or *should* it be cities? (The fact that I've been building IN Boston for two months has *nothing* to do with that question. No really. No no, really.) In my own stuff, I find that the more depth I build into a given area, the more areas are suggested that *need* more depth, for example. But if it's cities, should we also do countries? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > What kinds of background is appropriate for IN, in the panel's > opinion? I don't mean full out sourcebooks, so much as I mean true > *setting* materials? Should there be organizational information -- > like what businesses are really fronts for Trade, or War, or the > Game, or Greed? Or information on cults and secret societies of > humans and celestials? Or should there be more information on > movements in celestial society? Or "campaign" style stuff? I was kidding about Ishpeming. Here's what I learned from writing a Superior in a Superior book, so consider this a public lessons learned (and Eric, don't be afraid to comment): I was faced with the interesting task of building a minor Superior into, essentially, a non-existant society. Where does Fleurity really hang out in relation to the other Princes? How much Principality can he hold? How do demons go about their daily lives? What are expected of normal demons? How are politics carried out? It seems like this would be covered in the IPG, and it is to some extent, but the IPG is a _players guide_, and it talks about how to play _a_ demon, and not all demons. There's no actual Shal-Mari for demons to hang around in. There's no Perdition. There's no Hades. There's no Hell at all, really. There's a little smidgeon in _Heaven and Hell_, and what is there isn't very helpful. It was a task -- and one that I don't believe I did successfully, although Jo Hart had much better success than I -- to make assumptions and place an entire section of a society based on air. There's a complete lack of context, and unfortunately it tends to read that way as well. This is one of the cases where canon would actually be helpful instead of an active hinderance, like it tends to be. Since there's no actual Shal-Mari to build on other than a collection of references, it's very difficult to answer these questions about Superiors, their doings, their politics, and their daily workings. Authors are forced to decide on them in absentia, not all of it agrees, and In Nomine still feels like a hodge-podge, just a hodge-podge with splatbooks. ... Not that the splatbooks are a bad thing, don't get me wrong, but they would be more effective, interesting, and _useful_ with some context. After reading _In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil_ and _Factol's Manifesto_ for Planescape (yeah, okay, I'm reading alot of Planescape lately), and then reading some of the Sigil based adventures, it _feels_ like the game has context. It _feels_ like the actions of PCs and NPCs have motivations and a point, even if it's just a casual mugging. And it's what makes it a better game than In Nomine. (I have several other examples, if people get tired of me harping on Planescape, believe it or not.) A book on _Hell_ itself would be heinously useful to the IN GM, and the players, and anyone who was interested in buying the game. Not splatbooks on each Principality, because that's so much overkill, but just Hell itself. All Hell. No Heaven, no Marches, no Sorcerer rules. I know it can be well written, complete, and well done in 128 pages. Even if the players always play angels forever, knowing about Hell would make the motivations of individual demons, and their Masters, make much more sense. It would start to bring some of the universe together. It might even make it feel populated. See? Setting. So my answer, in essence, is "Yes". - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.pave-france.org/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. Hitherby | The entirety of Kobal's organization doubles as secret police, with the exception of demons under suspicion, from whose minds he removes this information shortly before appointing them to his public secret police unit. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 09:01:53 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm > > Then again, maybe I'm just tired of sitting down with each new player I > > get and saying, "Forget everything you read in the CPG, APG, IPG and > > GMG. You don't know where any soul will go, why they go there, how > > ethereals exist, how ethereals get essence, how they are killed, how the > > Demon Princes and Archangels get their powers, what a Superior is > > capable of doing, who all the word-bound are, where anything in the > > Marches is, and what the real story behind the Fall is. You have to > > *learn* that in character and through playing." Ha ha ha, I can see myself asking what supplements my players have read, thengo through and *do the opposite* of what each supplement suggests, or at least something different . . . perhaps drastically so. Course, I do that with the ruls in the basic set, too. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:04:47 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Politics > I just recently asked myself this question (For one reason or another) and > still haven't been able to come up with a significant answer, so I thought > I'd share my dilemna. What political affliations are the Celetial realms > (Being Heaven and Hell) controlled by? > > Like is Heaven Democracy, Communism, Monarchy, Socialism? In canonical In Nomine, Heaven is a feudal system with an aloof monarch. In a dark, dark In Nomine game, Heaven is a terrifying fascist regime, fanatically loyal to their cookie cutter, uberangel, Malakite leader Laurence, carrying out the mad whims of their insane God. In a bright In Nomine game, Heaven is a communist utopia. Each person theoretically does what he does best for the benefit of the group; each Word is carefully assigned by the group to the angel that can best benefit Heaven. In canonical In Nomine, Hell is also a feudal system with an aloof monarch, but the barons are more cruel than you can possibly cope with. In a dark In Nomine game, Hell is like it is in a canonical game, but the freedom is all fake. Sure, they *say* that Hell is the only side that allows real change and progress, but look around, buddy: over half the Demon Princes got their titles during the original Fall, and the other half are at least as old. These news guys only made it cuz they buddied up to the old system... and don't think about it to much, or you'll spend the next ten thousand years having your Forces tugged in opposite directions, just to see what would happen. In a brighter In Nomine game, Hell is a (sometimes brutal) meritocracy. Much more so than it is now. In Heaven, you can only prosper if God wills it. In Hell... it's all rugged individualism, baby! If you wanna be a Demon Prince, pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and carpe diem! A few folks might get hurt along the way, but it's all for the best. Hell's about progress. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:07:48 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Souls in Hell At 17:26 -0400 4/26/00, Christopher Lee wrote: >Is it possible that before the Fall there was some sort of fate/destiny system, just one administered by the angels, that the demons took over the fate side of once they Fell? > >It might help explain the angels of judgement at the gates of Hell, hangovers from before the Fall. > >Also this raises the question of whether the Fall itself wrenched humanity into two paths, just as it split the Celestials into two. My (non-canon) view on this is that the Fall opened a "drain" for those humans who didn't achieve their destiny; before that, they probably either dissipated or reincarnated if they reached their Fate, since there wasn't any other option open then. I don't think the Fall changed humanity itself in any substantial way; those possibilities were always there. And it seems that part of Lucifer's problem was with the notion that letting humans have the opportunity to take a course to their fate, via free will, made them better than angels somehow. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 00:06:25 +0800 From: Quistis Subject: Re: IN> Anime Angel Sketches http://www.philsite.com/~escaflowne/Camus.jpg http://www.philsite.com/~escaflowne/faust3.jpg wish i had better drawings to give you, but then these are my only angel pics ^____^;; other sketches are archived at http://www.crosswinds.net/~lunarcry At 11:19 PM 4/30/00 -0700, you wrote: >I missed the original message. URL, please? > >Ochre > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com/ > _____________________________________________________________ Utena: "I'm the only one who can feel you- can't you feel me? No matter how much I touch you, does it just pass right through your skin...?" Touga: "I feel it with my heart." - - Quistis a.k.a. Lahatiel, Fallen Seraph of Punishment, Angel of Suicide and Vodka ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 09:15:00 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements >P.S. No offense is meant, of course, to people who don't like or use >sourcebooks out there. It's a great way to play and having fun is the >really important thing. I just get annoyed when people take "canon" >to mean "repression." > > >-- >Eric Alfred Canon as repression? In a way one can feel repressed by all those who purport canon to be the "way it should be," which is caused by the fact that "canon" texts are backed by an "authority" of sort . . . So, when "canon" represents "authority" and if one generally reacts to "authority" by feeling "repressed", well, there you go: such a person reacts to "canon" by feeling "repressed." Just thought I'd reflect on that, sorry if its off topic to delve into the psychological impact of game supplements upon players and GMs. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:25:09 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> DC Tethers... At 17:57 -0400 4/26/00, Christopher Lee wrote: >>Canonically, there are a lot of tethers in and around Washington, D.C. >>Twelve, at my count. While I guess we all expect a lot of tethers around a >>capitol, it seems like this is a lot... > >Is there any reason why this is a lot? Is there some rule of thumb about the number of tethers there ought to be in a locality? Is it linked to the local human population? For example might we expect one per million people? This is all covered in the Liber Castellorum. The quick answer is that there's *some* correlation with population, but a lot of other factors come into play. The cities so far described in canon seem to have roughly 1 Tether per 100,000 to 1 million people, but it's officially up to the GM to decide on Tether frequency and placement in his campaign -- L.Castellorum gives some suggestions, but no hard-and-fast rules. >In fact it is likely that D.C has fewer tethers than say London, because London is older and larger and most tethers formed there should persist as long as the basis for the tether retains any relevance. What about a city like Rome? In general, world capitals are likely to have a lot of Tethers, just because humans focus so much energy and attention on them. >I want to have around 7 tethers in my In Nomine city, which has around 750,000 people and is about 1200 years old. Any comments? It's on the high side, I think, but Austin (in Night Music) has about that number, and it's less than a century old, if I recall right, and a little smaller, I believe. The "right" number of Tethers in your campaign city is the number you want there. You can justify Podunk, Nebraska (pop. 7,512) having three Tethers, if you want them there. Tethers have a major impact on the campaign, and it's up to the GM to set them up to suit the way he wants his campaign to play. If you want to eliminate some of the canon Tethers, feel free, though it's a good idea to advise the players if you get rid of some of the more prominent, well-known ones. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 09:25:55 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Drezner writes: >But what In Nomine lacks is not theology. Most gaming systems limp along >on a theological background that is so bad that it physically hurts to >ponder it. What In Nomine lacks is _setting_. Hmmm... Brought to you by the same people who produced GURPS (whose who rules I loe and its my favorite game in the universe *because* it lacks definite setting; but it still lacks definite setting). One can get away with the >sheer inexplicable dorkiness of the "Eden Experiment" if it's tipped the >other way with spectacular settings that blow your mind away. But the >fact of reality is that there is a complete lack of setting material >except for two poorly done cities and a few dozen specific locations in >"You Are Here". There are no fleshed out Heaven, Hell, or Marches; there >are no complete books on cities filled with black underbellies and >towering cathedrals. Such is life. At least GURPS has world-books . . . In Nomine needs specific setting books, maybe entire versions of the game in print. I feel that the main selling point of the White Wolf game *is* its setting. The books seem to boil over with setting, storys, and flavor. And while, yes, the Storyteller always reserves the right to change things, s/he's got a LOT of setting to build upon, complete with lots and lots of great descriptions of how *how* the game world "feels" . . . I kinda feel that In Nomine was written in such a way to attempt to give GM's the same freedom of setting freedom as they have in GURPS. However, I ask you, is that what most GM's want? If IN is to be SJGames response to WW, I believe it needs more setting, as X-Files last night described: FLAVOR. The two stories in the front of the Core Book arer excellent. Hell, one of the main reason I purchased the Book of Relics was the friggin' stories in the front!! And when I buy my copy of Mage: The Ascension, it sure as hell won't be for the explanation of Magick, 'cause I read all that in my copy of GURPS Mage. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:33:24 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > point of the White Wolf game *is* its setting. The books seem to boil over > with setting, storys, and flavor. And while, yes, the Storyteller always Eh, the thing that I like about In Nomine is the mysticalness (is that a word?) of it. You aren't told things. It's a grown-up game where you are given enough rope, and you can hang yourself or your players or your dog if you want to. I almost wish it wasn't originally written as a humor-tainted project, because then it would feel more right. Like Prophecy would've been if the plot didn't stink. Too many details and we're playing in Angels: The WhiteWolf, and there's a reason I don't play Storyteller games. :) (Oh, the seneschal of the tether of the Wind in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico? Hold on, lemme see if I still have In Nomine IN1243 (Aliens and Angels) lying around here....) I suppose you could find a happy middle ground. But then again, it's my hubritic opinion that In Nomine already has reached a happy middle ground by giving you enough rope to make rope knots, but not so much rope that there's only one knot you can make. At least you have rope! GURPS doesn't even give you rope, it gives you flax and says, "Well!?" I like flax. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 09:37:05 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> RE: Players and Supplements >From: Emily Dresner There's a complete lack of >context, and unfortunately it tends to read that way as well. And context is the thing that makes a piece of information meaningful. Hell, look at learning your native language. You don't take a class to lrean how to talk, each and every word, each expression, receives its meaning from the context in which its used. Which is why WW games sell and feel so well, so far as I'm concerned, because of the context they provide. It's almost as though you can *taste* the world you'll stepping into when you play them. I have friends who'd never play them, but just like to buy the books to *read* them . . . fish In the above example, no context: no meaning. Or maybe its just coherency that we need, dammit. >This is one of the cases where canon would actually be helpful instead of >an active hinderance, like it tends to be. Even I, the anti-canon, can get behind this. Since there's no actual >Shal-Mari to build on other than a collection of references, it's very >difficult to answer these questions about Superiors, their doings, their >politics, and their daily workings. Authors are forced to decide on them >in absentia, not all of it agrees, and In Nomine still feels like a >hodge-podge, just a hodge-podge with splatbooks. The first seventeen(17) pages of the original French game is context, historical context, and therefore helpful as well. Granted the American game has about the same number of pages of story . . . but . . . dunno . . . the story doesn't seem to really help explain how the different parts of the game world fit together. >... Not that the splatbooks are a bad thing, don't get me wrong, but they >would be more effective, interesting, and _useful_ with some context. > >After reading _In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil_ and _Factol's Manifesto_ for >Planescape (yeah, okay, I'm reading alot of Planescape lately), and then >reading some of the Sigil based adventures, it _feels_ like the game has >context. It _feels_ like the actions of PCs and NPCs have motivations and >a point, even if it's just a casual mugging. And it's what makes it a >better game than In Nomine. (I have several other examples, if people get >tired of me harping on Planescape, believe it or not.) > > >See? Setting. So my answer, in essence, is "Yes". Whole-hearted agreement here. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:32:58 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements At 11:43 AM -0400 5/1/00, Emily Dresner wrote: > > What kinds of background is appropriate for IN, in the panel's > > opinion? I don't mean full out sourcebooks, so much as I mean true > > *setting* materials? Should there be organizational information -- > > like what businesses are really fronts for Trade, or War, or the > > Game, or Greed? Or information on cults and secret societies of > > humans and celestials? Or should there be more information on > > movements in celestial society? Or "campaign" style stuff? > >I was kidding about Ishpeming. > >Here's what I learned from writing a Superior in a Superior book, so >consider this a public lessons learned (and Eric, don't be afraid to >comment): There is much I fear in this world, but commenting I shall do brightly, brightly and with beauty. >I was faced with the interesting task of building a minor Superior into, >essentially, a non-existant society. Where does Fleurity really hang out >in relation to the other Princes? How much Principality can he hold? How >do demons go about their daily lives? What are expected of normal demons? >How are politics carried out? I had it significantly easier with Alaemon, not because there was much to work with in the past (really, just a few references to Alaemon plus the original adventure in the GM Pack), but because Alaemon is the Demon Prince of Secrets. Fleurity *needed* hooks into society and a good amount of interactivity with the rest of Shal Mari and Demonic Society. Alaemon spends most of his time and organization hiding from the same, so my writing could be a lot more insular, focusing on interactions between Demons of Secrets, as opposed to between Secrets and the rest of the world. >It was a task -- and one that I don't believe I did successfully, although >Jo Hart had much better success than I -- to make assumptions and place an >entire section of a society based on air. There's a complete lack of >context, and unfortunately it tends to read that way as well. Actually, I thought Fleurity was successful in this. Given we have monumental gaps (I agree totally with the lack of Heaven and Hell detail), I think the Superiors books are becoming the de facto "setting" right now, as they *do* address locations and interactions in Heaven, in Hell and on Earth, as well as organizations. David, from Superiors 1, is the King of this -- there are interesting places, a real feel for what his Principality is like, and a good sense of what it *is* to be a Demon of Stone. Of the two published books to date, David is probably the strongest 'background' writeup (though I don't have Sup2 in front of me to review it, so this is all totally "off the top of my head." I seem to remember some good meaty background stuff from the Sup3 Playtest as well, and Sup4 I'm biased on. ) >A book on _Hell_ itself would be heinously useful to the IN GM, and the >players, and anyone who was interested in buying the game. Not splatbooks >on each Principality, because that's so much overkill, but just Hell >itself. All Hell. No Heaven, no Marches, no Sorcerer rules. I know it >can be well written, complete, and well done in 128 pages. Even if the >players always play angels forever, knowing about Hell would make the >motivations of individual demons, and their Masters, make much more sense. >It would start to bring some of the universe together. It might even make >it feel populated. I concur, RE the Liber Maleficum (yes, I maimed that). I think it would be useful, could delve into detail, could develop inter-Principality relations and really address "a day in the life." And I bet "Hell" would sell lots. So. Here's another question for the audience. Should we start developing/working on/whatever a net.book of Hell or of these sorts of things? Right now, there are IN cities appearing online (David Edelstein has both New York and San Francisco online, for example). Should we start collating links to these things into an In Nomine Net.Book of Cities? Or, should we be pushing on the SJGames side? (Hey Beth!) Is that side even safe to push on right now, or should we be stepping softly? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:41:38 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Suggestions for adjucating Ethereals... At 1:09 -0400 4/28/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Fair enough, but then what _are_, precisely, the >factors that make the difference between a thriving >ethereal god and a ethereal struggling to stay afloat? > >I would hazard a guess that numbers of worshippers and >quality of devotion are important, but I'm not coming >up with anything else that would fit all the pantheons >... and as neopaganism is more widespread these days, >and most neopagans I know are fairly fervent*, I'm >wondering what I'm overlooking, here. :) Another issue is the number of extant Tethers. Christian humans did a pretty good job of wrecking a lot of the ethereal Tethers. And ethereal Tethers are much more likely to form in places of worship, so a small amount of celestial tampering (i.e., generating a lot of disturbance in the area) can be set up in advance to keep them from forming, to some extent. Ethereals can also "capture" wild Tethers with the right affinities. The problem is that most of these Tethers also have affinities to celestial Words, and are more likely to get grabbed by AAs and DPs. Add to that that worship of most of these entities is a relatively recent phenomenon, after a long dry spell. So there hasn't been a lot of time for new Tethers to form, in many cases. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 11:35:45 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> DC Tethers... Walter opined: >It's on the high side, I think, but Austin (in Night Music) has about that >number, and it's less than a century old, if I recall right, and a little >smaller, I believe. Austin is nearly 150 years old (I'd have to check the exact date of the city's founding, but I am certain it was before the Civil War--heck, UT is over 100 years old itself, and Austin predates Varsity). Its population is a hair over half a million, but if you include all the bedroom communities, outlying suburbs, associated metropolites, and so on, it probably gets up to about 650K. (Or you could just take the San Antonio-Austin area as one big urban sprawl, which isn't too far off the truth and getting increasingly accurate every year. That would have a population well over 2 million people.) - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 09:43:21 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements >I suppose you could find a happy middle ground. But then again, it's my >hubritic opinion that In Nomine already has reached a happy middle ground >by >giving you enough rope to make rope knots, but not so much rope that >there's >only one knot you can make. > >At least you have rope! GURPS doesn't even give you rope, it gives you >flax >and says, "Well!?" > >I like flax. > >Ben Me, too. I love GURPS, because it didn't *try* and provide background, it was just rules and the backgrounds were covered in the source books, but I feel like In Nomine kinda tried to give background and context and failed, but it feels kinda half baked. Granted, it means that I can finish cooking it any way that I want . . . but I kinda feel like if you're gunna try and provide/sell game rules *and* a game world, flesh out both of them, or leave one of them out. I dunno. Maybe I just got a taste of something I liked in the story in the beginning of the Core book and I'm left hungering for more of the same in a quantity that's greater than a couple pages in a few supplements. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 09:43:17 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements >I suppose you could find a happy middle ground. But then again, it's my >hubritic opinion that In Nomine already has reached a happy middle ground >by >giving you enough rope to make rope knots, but not so much rope that >there's >only one knot you can make. > >At least you have rope! GURPS doesn't even give you rope, it gives you >flax >and says, "Well!?" > >I like flax. > >Ben Me, too. I love GURPS, because it didn't *try* and provide background, it was just rules and the backgrounds were covered in the source books, but I feel like In Nomine kinda tried to give background and context and failed, but it feels kinda half baked. Granted, it means that I can finish cooking it any way that I want . . . but I kinda feel like if you're gunna try and provide/sell game rules *and* a game world, flesh out both of them, or leave one of them out. I dunno. Maybe I just got a taste of something I liked in the story in the beginning of the Core book and I'm left hungering for more of the same in a quantity that's greater than a couple pages in a few supplements. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:45:44 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements At 9:15 AM -0700 5/1/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Canon as repression? In a way one can feel repressed by all those >who purport canon to be the "way it should be," which is caused by >the fact that "canon" texts are backed by an "authority" of sort . . >. How common *is* that, really, though? I mean, when the Line Editor prefaces put near every post she ever says with "in your own campaign, do whatever you like," and the Game Master's Guide has whole sections on how to toss the stuff in the books out the window wholesale and try different stuff, in what way is Canon being rammed down peoples' throats as "the only way to IN?" The days where E. Gary and his Dukes decried anyone ever going off-text in AD&D (despite the fact that they did the same thing and admitted to doing it) are over. RPGs all have their "the GM can accept or discard any part of this he wishes" sections and disclaimers. If a player is Rules Lawyering, because "Canon" says something is different from what the GM says, the GM has to cope with that like all Rules Lawyers. That doesn't make having a house setting, with preset intersetting attitudes and rulings, repressive. So when someone asks a question on a mailing list, is told the Canon answer according to the books, and triggers a flurry of anti-Canon rhetoric because "you don't *have* to play it that way," with an undercurrent of loathing for the jack-booted thug who beat down the hapless proles with his bourgoise 'player's guides,' it gets annoying. >So, when "canon" represents "authority" and if one generally reacts >to "authority" by feeling "repressed", well, there you go: such a >person reacts to "canon" by feeling "repressed." I ask again -- is that really something you've noticed on the IN Mailing list? If so -- and I honestly want to know -- when and how has it manifested? It's clearly a violation of mailing list etiquette. (Also -- just out of curiousity, is this a conditional relationship or a general one you're describing. It's not quite clear -- are you saying 'One generally reacts to authority with repression,' or 'If one tends to react to authority with repression, that individual would therefore...') > Just thought I'd reflect on that, sorry if its off topic to delve >into the psychological impact of game supplements upon players and >GMs. It's not, at all. That doesn't mean I don't get annoyed at knee-jerk responses to invocations of official materials being somehow evil. Note also I haven't accused you of such. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:18:20 +0800 From: John "The Apocalypse"Kuan Subject: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Dear Dudes of the List - Has anyone written anything about Cybernetics in the world of In Nomine. I've started a new campaigned based on Gaijins's Dark Victory - set in a cyberpunk future. Jean's position is taken over by his "proteage" MOD - Acscendant of Lightning. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions? Thanks :D John Kuan Malaysia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:49:24 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Perry said... > I dunno. Maybe I just got a taste of something I liked in the story in the > beginning of the Core book and I'm left hungering for more of the same in a > quantity that's greater than a couple pages in a few supplements. > I know that was my feeling. I read everything that ever got put on the web, starting years back. I loved it! When IN was coming out, my friends and I pre-registered for the IN Tournament slated to be held at the next convention. Then, as those of you who have been into this for a while recall, the game didn't come out. A long time passed and then ... a different game came out. I liked that one too, but it's pretty much a matter of record that A Bright Dream and A Dark Dream were written with a very different game in mind. I feel very sorry for those who have had to stage-manage the game out of that and into what we see today. I'm sure it's painful and of course you get no respect. But very occasionally, you are reminded of the Elder Days and usually it sounds really interesting. If only I spoke French. Or read it, more to the point. But I can't seem to learn any human language except English. Sean (C, Perl, Java, Pascal, ADA ... well, not ADA) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:01:35 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Animal Language's At 11:14 -0400 4/27/00, David Rodemaker wrote: > Over the past couple of days as I've looked at >Jordi I think that he's a bit underpowered and that his choir attunments are >way to limiting... He also seems a little off for IN and perhaps a little >closer to whatever he was in the French version. (I'm allowed my opinions, >heck *some* people even solicit them. Everyone else must suffer) If anything >he and his servitors seem a little mamby-pamby for one of the argueably more >powerful Words. For what it's worth, in the GURPS IN conversion, Jordi's actually more or less in the middle of the pack in terms of GURPS point cost to play one of his Servitors. However, most of that isn't in the Choir Attunements, but due to the high-level Role all his Servitors get in their animal form(s). That is a very powerful effect, but also a very subtle one. And probably less frequently useful than some players would like. Personally, Jordi and Blandine are the two AAs on my list of "Superiors to avoid as a PC unless you're *really* into roleplaying it". They're both good for that, though. But you have to have a group that will tolerate a player with a character who will be operating out in left field a lot. I happen to think it's useful to have some AAs whose concerns are so *different*. But it's definitely work to GM a group including them, unless you have everyone being an Animals Servitor (or maybe Flowers) -- the plots that concern them are just so orthoganal to the typical IN plot. Motivating a strongly-diverse group is a perennial GM problem.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 11:01:07 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - > Has anyone written anything about Cybernetics in the world of In Nomine. I've started a new campaigned based on Gaijins's Dark Victory - set in a cyberpunk future. Jean's position is taken over by his "proteage" MOD - Acscendant of Lightning. > Anyone have any ideas or suggestions? Cyberpunk In Nomine. Jean (or his replacement) and Vapula would be much, much more powerful. Especially Vapula. Angels and Demons would be mighty indeed, since their vessels could come complete with the very best in Heavenly cybernetics -- all wired to explode if tampered with, to avoid it falling into mortal hands. The organization of Angels and Demons would be a terrible thing to behold. Imagine wiring every angel with a transmitter so they can communicate on a frequency mankind can't pick up. Even worse: Imagine wiring every DEMON with a transmitter... What is cyberspace? Is it part of the Ethereal Plane? I have no doubts that it is. And the easy emotions that flow on the 'net now would be magnified a thousand fold in cyberspace. New ethereal gods would manifest, feeding from this easy source of energy. They're where the AI's come from. The angels and demons, not wanting competition, might find themselves in a war against technology as the newly mighty ethereal gods of cyberspace try to use computers to finally make the Ethereal Plane free. And since computer outlets are a ticket to the Ethereal Plane, you could chase a demon, freshly blooded from a spray of rippers across his neck, into the Comp-U-Lounge, where he plugs in, jacks up, goes to the Ethereal Plane and escapes to Hell, leaving his body behind for you to deal with. It won't be long before the cops start to wonder why so many people turn up dead while plugged in -- that is, if they don't just assume it's black ice. If a computer program can kill someone who's plugged in, and someone who is plugged in is just in part of the Ethereal Plane, a powerful new computer virus could start killing off Blandine's Menunim. Snowcrash! In fact, Snowcrash is just a book about a washed up Ofanite who's using computer terminals in an epic battle that will decide if Heaven, Hell, or mankind controls the Ethereal Plane. Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1602 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.