From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 1 16:35:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00726 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 16:35:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA32266 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 2000 16:31:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:31:29 -0500 Message-Id: <200005012131.QAA32266@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1603 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1603 In this digest: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Firstborn (was Angel of Pain) IN> Literate In Nomine Players Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) IN> Mage Stuff (was In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism) Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements IN> Player mistakes Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books IN> Sniper gear Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:54:44 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements At 9:37 AM -0700 5/1/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>This is one of the cases where canon would actually be helpful instead of >>an active hinderance, like it tends to be. > >Even I, the anti-canon, can get behind this. Is an Anti-Canon an Anglican Minister who follows the Anti-Christ? And even I, a pro-canon, thinks this is by far the most effective types of Canon. Which means Perry, Em and I agree on something. That *has* to be worth doughnuts all around. >The first seventeen(17) pages of the original French game is >context, historical context, and therefore helpful as well. Granted >the American game has about the same number of pages of story . . . >but . . . dunno . . . the story doesn't seem to really help explain >how the different parts of the game world fit together. Besides, flavor-text can be so... *good.* Now, I have my problems with the opening vignettes (which I won't won't won't go into again), but take a look at something like the Seattle Sourcebook for Shadowrun. There was 100% flavortext that was also a bloody useful book for GM's. And, as it turns out, it also had built in disclaimers on everything you read in it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:38:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > At least GURPS has world-books . . . In Nomine needs specific setting books, > maybe entire versions of the game in print. I feel that the main selling > point of the White Wolf game *is* its setting. The books seem to boil over > with setting, storys, and flavor. And while, yes, the Storyteller always > reserves the right to change things, s/he's got a LOT of setting to build > upon, complete with lots and lots of great descriptions of how *how* the > game world "feels" . . . Exactly. Thanks for understanding my point -- and using a different game system to work from. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.pave-france.org/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. Demiurge doesn't keep human heads in her freezer. It uses up so much space. Demiurge just shrinks and dries them. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:46:20 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Firstborn (was Angel of Pain) From: Christopher Lee > Does anyone know any Greek? Sadly I am an ancient historian who was too slack to take on both Greek and Latin. I always thought Greek had a nice ring to it that might suit this sort of thing. > you're not the christopher lee who wrote that radio series on british history are you? liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 11:28:08 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Literate In Nomine Players >Example: I really hate the way that In Nomine deals with the Fall. I don't think much of it either. >Personally I like the >way John Milton has it go in "Paradise Lost" (which I consider "canon" for >my >campaign), where you have the Exaltation of the Son, then the War, then the >Fall, then the Creation of the world, and finally, the Fall of Man seduced >by >Satan. Since none of my players are actually going to go out and read all >ten books of "Paradise Lost," I'm perfectly save using anything there. You couldn't get away with that where I learned to play (Princeton University gaming club) ... and I would be surprised if people on this very well-read list aren't familiar with *Paradise Lost* or the *Divine Comedy.* (Maybe Aquinas.) I like this idea, because although I like (most of) the IN system, and enjoy (most of) the supplements I've read, there are some of them I don't like and which I happily skip on the infrequent occasions I run a game myself. And I do not see why, if everyone is agreed that you don't have to use canon if you don't want to, people should get all aggravated every time someone says they want to run a game (or prefer a game) in which the Bible, Aquinas, Milton, or Mary Baker Eddy got it right. You don't have to believe it; you don't have to do it that way in your game; but why is this any different than changing various other parts of canon? Or using any other sourcebook? Janet Anderson ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 14:42:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players Janet Anderson wrote: > And I do not see why, if everyone is agreed that you don't have to > use canon if you don't want to, people should get all aggravated > every time someone says they want to run a game (or prefer a game) > in which the Bible, Aquinas, Milton, or Mary Baker Eddy got it > right. You don't have to believe it; you don't have to do it that > way in your game; but why is this any different than changing > various other parts of canon? Or using any other sourcebook? In fact, the Games Master's Guide for IN has a section on playing IN "By the Book," which does just that. Personally, I feel that the default IN world is deliberately watered down in theological content, to reach maximum market and avoid offence, but that this meant foregoing a rich source of background and flavor -- or rather a whole panoply of rich sources. Since a fair number of new people have joined the list since I last posted it, I will, if asked, post my own "Christian Mods" for IN to the list, or send them to individuals who might be curious. There is some resemblance to the Christian IN section of the GMG, since David Edelstein was kind enough to ask for my input there. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:41:07 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players At 11:28 AM -0700 5/1/00, Janet Anderson wrote: >And I do not see why, if everyone is agreed that you don't have to >use canon if you don't want to, people should get all aggravated >every time someone says they want to run a game (or prefer a game) >in which the Bible, Aquinas, Milton, or Mary Baker Eddy got it >right. You don't have to believe it; you don't have to do it that >way in your game; but why is this any different than changing >various other parts of canon? Or using any other sourcebook? > I don't think anyone's aggrivated at the idea of a Miltonian Campaign. It sounds interesting and I'm sure it's a lot of fun. I did mention I wouldn't enjoy it as much, but that's my (totally subjective and oft unsolicited ) opinion, worth about as much as the electrons on this screen. Mary Baker Eddy... hmmmmm.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:50:05 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism John "The Apocalypse"Kuan wrote: > > Has anyone written anything about Cybernetics in the world of In > Nomine. I've started a new campaigned based on Gaijins's Dark Victory > - set in a cyberpunk future. Jean's position is taken over by his > "protege" MOD - Acscendant of Lightning. Anyone have any ideas or > suggestions? Sure. Here are some non-IN gaming supplements that I found useful when figuring out how demonic/angelic technology might work: o Feng Shui All the arcanowave stuff is pure Vapula. It's a nasty mix of magic, technology, and pure 200-proof evil. o The Everlasting: Book of the Light. This game has a neat take on how angelic technology might work, and what its limitations are. Basically, angels understant how reality works inside and out, and can consequently make devices that do nearly anything. However, miraculous angelic technology requires an in-depth understanding of the universe -- including its moral dimension -- to properly operate. And as an angel's enlightenment goes up, the harder it finds it to operate on a human rather than cosmic scale. So angels that interact easily with humans (eg, PCs) won't be able to use the tools of ultimate power, but it doesn't limit angels-in- general to wimpy power levels. o Mage the Ascension Specifically Anders Sandberg's Mage webpages on the Technocracy. He integrates supertech with the notion that magical tech is fundamentally reflects the understanding and enlightenment of its users. ( http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/mage.html ) In a follow-up I'll describe what I did for my game. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:10:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 12:32 PM -0400 5/1/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >So. Here's another question for the audience. > >Should we start developing/working on/whatever a net.book of Hell or [...] >Or, should we be pushing on the SJGames side? (Hey Beth!) Is that >side even safe to push on right now, or should we be stepping softly? People can write in with their great ideas or praise or begging for a given book (sjgames@io.com), sure. But, here's the thing. I don't get to say, "Hey, there's this cool idea,let's do it!" First, the Powers That Be (including the financial officer who does the books and keeps track of sales) have to decide the book would make a profit. If previous books aren't making back the money sank into them quickly enough, but are gathering dust in the warehouse, then the PTB are much less likely to want to do another book similiar. For instance, trying to sell the PTB on a IN Hell book would probably be an uphill battle. (Mind, what I want to do is make a 146 page (or whatever) book combining the meat out of The Marches and H&H, with expansions and a total lack of the Marches 'adventure.' Considering that both of those books were written at the 500-550 words per page mark, and the new wpp is 600-650.. But I digress.) Basically, ya gots to buy books to get books. If you want the Superiors books to come out quickly, you need to buy them, or the distributors get the ide, "These don't sell" and don't order them or don't order many (or who knows, say they're out of print so they don't have to order any little fiddly bits), and the retailers say, "These don't sell" and don't pester the distributors, and then SJGames looks at all the stock gathering dust in the warehouse and say, "These don't sell. Maybe we should just quit." (I don't think it's that bad, but the line isn't in the top 20 in the Comic Retailers top-20 listing of RPGs. It made #18 _once_.) So basically, if you want a setting book, you have to convince the PTB that it will sell enough copies, _quickly enough_ to justify the front end expense of producing it. Not impossible, but it's going to require effort in getting people to buy the existing stuff. (The good existing stuff. I'll understand if you don't want to force someone to get, say, FotM if you don't think it's worth it.) Do I sound depressed? Yeah, probably. The local store has 2 copies of Superiors 2 which I scribbled my name in, and they are still sitting there like dead frogs. If they're doing that in other stores, well, it will add up and make me _very_ depressed. So if there's a book you want to see on real paper with (allegedly) real art and real boxquotes and a real cover, etc., there's two things you can do. First, send 1 (count it, one per person) email to say you'd love to see a book about X and would buy it, nay, pay inflated prices at auction, merely to hold it in your hands. Say you love the line. Explain how many of your friends are playing and buying the books even when you have to tie your retailer to a stake and light old Warhammer books beneath him to make him special order the books... Second -- buy books similar to the one you want! Make your local retailer order them. Harass him every other day till they get in. Don't take "out of stock" for an answer (you can check the web site or ask me if something is really ut of stock). Show your book around proudly to everyone in the store and sing its praises along with little cries of, "At last, it's here! Now I don't have to turn to drugs to keep from being depressed!" Get your players to get a copy of the good books. For Superior books, as I said before, get 3-4 friends and divide the cost and the book... O:> Send in email about how much you liked book X that you just got and how much you'd love a book XY. Praise SJ for acquiring the license. Etc. And come buy the copies of Superiors 2 in Dover. They're signed by the editor/Line Editor, even! - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:12:16 -0400 From: Mason Kramer Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) > From: Elizabeth McCoy > And come buy the copies of Superiors 2 in Dover. They're signed > by the editor/Line Editor, even! > But only buy one of them. I'm hoping the other is still there on the 15th when I have money again! ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:12:57 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books Except that, of course, even when sales happen it appears that the desires of the zealous fans aren't heeded. The core book sold out. I'm fantasizing this is at least partially my fault. (*laugh*) since I can trace at least 26 copies ot the paperback and 7 hardcover sales to evangelizing at conventions on my own part and to my friends. Meanwhile, said friends are also pushing it...and of course many of us own 3 copies of the book...(both special covers) I know that, reasonably, a few dozen books one way of the other doesn't mater. So I don't matter. But I think the aforementioned zealous fans, including many on this list, have been trying to bring more people to buy the book both because we love the game and because, of course, it means the line will live. And what happens when the book sells out? Reprint. Not the new, better edition everyone hoped for. Heck! If that's the kind of business decision we're going to be getting... I am not sure I can have faith in the "Selling more books will lead to improvements in the line" arguement anymore. Maybe I was just naive to believe it in the first place. Selling foo many copies of Superiors95 isn't going to save this game. Getting a clear and solid direction and a gripping setting starting from the very first book someone buys...that will. At least, IMHO. I think we need to talk about this. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:35:47 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 3:10 PM -0400 5/1/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >So basically, if you want a setting book, you have to convince >the PTB that it will sell enough copies, _quickly enough_ >to justify the front end expense of producing it. Not impossible, >but it's going to require effort in getting people to buy the >existing stuff. > >(The good existing stuff. I'll understand if you don't want to >force someone to get, say, FotM if you don't think it's worth >it.) Look, I can't buy *another* copy of all these things. Here's some positive news for you, if it helps. There's -- for no apparent reason -- an extremely complete Game Store in Standish Maine, name of Crossroads Games. It's out in the middle of freakin' nowhere. It's not a comic book/CD/anime/video/game store, it's a Game Store. With Avalon Hill bookshelf games and miniatures and dice and (all right, trading cards) and Fluxx and things. And every last copy of the IN books. We had chatted about IN the time before that I'd been in there. Based on the chat, he got some books in, and one of his regular groups that gamed in-store was now an IN group, and the books are selling. Evangelize evangelize evangelize. >Do I sound depressed? Yeah, probably. The local store has 2 copies >of Superiors 2 which I scribbled my name in, and they are still >sitting there like dead frogs. If they're doing that in other >stores, well, it will add up and make me _very_ depressed. Well, at least they're very prominently displayed books, with a "Signed" tag under them.... >For Superior books, as I said before, get 3-4 friends and >divide the cost and the book... O:> Buy them. Get your friends to buy them. Get your relatives to buy them. (I have about twenty-five people lined up to buy Superiors 4. Then, I get them to buy other materials to understand Sup4, and soon they'll be hooked! Hooked!) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:36:15 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 3:12 PM -0400 5/1/00, Mason Kramer wrote: > > From: Elizabeth McCoy > > And come buy the copies of Superiors 2 in Dover. They're signed > > by the editor/Line Editor, even! > > >But only buy one of them. I'm hoping the other is still there on the 15th >when I have money again! ;) I'll spot you, Bro. *I* just couldn't see buying a third. Wanna hit Cafe on the Corner, drink Chai and buy Sup2? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:40:22 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Mage Stuff (was In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism) At 2:50 PM -0400 5/1/00, neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: > > >o Mage the Ascension > > Specifically Anders Sandberg's Mage webpages on the Technocracy. He > integrates supertech with the notion that magical tech is > fundamentally reflects the understanding and enlightenment of its > users. ( http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/mage.html ) If you think about it, Mage dovetails with IN to a degree. After all, Mage magic is perceptual -- almost the ultimate Balseraph attunement, really. You Believe so hard in something that it forces it to be real. Under Mage, the Ethereals could very easily be right. Yahweh got enough people to Believe his way that he got to rewrite the whole world to his Symphony, and now history and physics match what the Archangels and Demon Princes say they do.... Just think how terrified your players would be when suddenly a man bends the Symphony to his own notes, and the Symphony responds more completely than any Song could make it do... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 12:44:42 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements >From: "O. S. Kerr" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 07:15:27 -0700 (PDT) > > > There are no fleshed out Heaven, Hell, or Marches; there > > are no complete books on cities filled with black underbellies > > and towering cathedrals. Such is life. > >Does this mean that there's no hope for the IN: Phoenix that I'm >working on? > Go for it, Owen. I'd be interested! (I wish I could remember where I put my notes on Paris, there were a ton I'd written with a French friend.) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 10:23:4 +0800 From: John "The Apocalypse"Kuan Subject: IN> Player mistakes Dear Lista Lista On Subject of creating a high power campaign - I just started a new one , but my players have just shifted from the Hack and Slash RPG's [whose names I withold :D]. What should a player emphasise in their characters - and how would a GM such as yourselfs go about encouraging that? High Calibre is a far road for me - I need a map :D John Kuan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 12:54:14 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements >From: Whistling in the Dark >>Or *should* it be cities? (The fact that I've been building IN >Boston >for two months has *nothing* to do with that question. No really. No >no, really.) I find that cities are mainly useful as archetype/examples for people to steal and use ideas from. (Chicago by Night is probably my best example of a good city setting -- that one's for Vampire, and it includes lots of organisation charts so that you can see exactly how all the vampires in the city relate to each other). There is no real point in putting out umpteen similar urban American settings in which the only things that change are the names of the streets and the locations of the tethers. Austin and LA, the two settings which have been presented so far, are both interesting and different -- I think I prefer LA, even if it doesn't entirely seem mechanically believable as how a demon-controlled city would work. If there were to be more city settings (which I do not for a moment expect to see), I would rather see a city with a long and ancient history, in which ancient celestials have long and ancient histories also. I don't really think we need to see an angelic-dominated city; I'd rather see one that had more tethers and had a true cold war 'atmosphere', because more conflict is good for drama. I'd much rather scribble a writeup of the Lost City of Ys (or some other ethereal city of choice) or Shal-Mari :) I think we just about have the economics sussed, which is a start. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:21:11 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Perry Lloyd wrote: > I kinda feel that In Nomine was written in such a way to attempt to give > GM's the same freedom of setting freedom as they have in GURPS. However, I > ask you, is that what most GM's want? A good point, and I think the answer is NO. > If IN is to be SJGames response to WW, I believe it needs more setting, as > X-Files last night described: FLAVOR. I don't think IN is SJGames "response to WW." (It would be nice if IN had a fraction of WW's sales, though -- something I think is highly unlikely at this point, because IMO, if a new game doesn't catch on and attract a major following in the first year after its release, it never will.) > The two stories in the front of the Core Book arer excellent. Hell, one of > the main reason I purchased the Book of Relics was the friggin' stories in > the front!! OTOH, we've had a fair number of people bitching about how much they HATE the vignettes (or vignettes in general). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:25:01 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Whistling in the Dark wrote: > How common *is* that, really, though? I mean, when the Line Editor > prefaces put near every post she ever says with "in your own > campaign, do whatever you like," and the Game Master's Guide has > whole sections on how to toss the stuff in the books out the window > wholesale and try different stuff, in what way is Canon being rammed > down peoples' throats as "the only way to IN?" I was wondering that myself. I have NEVER seen anyone scream "It's not canon!" I have seen people point out that something wasn't canon to prevent others from being confused and thinking someone's nifty idea was an official rule. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:28:27 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players Janet Anderson wrote: > And I do not see why, if everyone is agreed that you don't have to use canon > if you don't want to, people should get all aggravated every time someone > says they want to run a game (or prefer a game) in which the Bible, Aquinas, > Milton, or Mary Baker Eddy got it right. You don't have to believe it; you > don't have to do it that way in your game; but why is this any different > than changing various other parts of canon? Or using any other sourcebook? And in refutation of claims that people are "canonically" discouraged from varying their campaigns, I'd point out that the GMG goes into considerable detail pointing out ways to vary your campaign, including offering numerous suggestions for running a Christian In Nomine game or a Jewish In Nomine game or a Muslim In Nomine game, etc. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:36:38 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Basically, ya gots to buy books to get books. If the books available aren't good enough for people to want to buy them, I don't think you're going to be successful in trying to persuade people: "I know Heaven & Hell isn't what you want, but if you buy it, then someday you *might* get the book on Hell that you _really_ want." You're essentially asking people to buy mediocre product to encourage the company to produce more (*hopefully* better, but no guarantees) product. Or to put it another way, I think SJG's marketing strategy may be flawed: the fact that H&H hasn't sold well doesn't necessarily mean that Hell wouldn't. It *might* mean that H&H just wasn't that good, but a really well-done follow-up might sell better. But I am not an economist or a marketing expert. I dunno. I do know that I too have seen In Nomine books gathering dust on local game store shelves, and frankly, I think In Nomine has a small hardcore following that *may* be large enough to sustain the line, at a modest level of production, but it's never going to "catch on" and make enough money to fund all your dream projects (or mine). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:41:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 3:12 PM -0400 5/1/00, Mason Kramer wrote: >> From: Elizabeth McCoy >> And come buy the copies of Superiors 2 in Dover. They're signed >> by the editor/Line Editor, even! >> >But only buy one of them. I'm hoping the other is still there on the 15th >when I have money again! ;) Well, go in or call up and tell them to put a copy behind the counter for you! (And if it's not, then hey -- you can special order a copy and have them call me to sign it when it gets in...) At 3:35 PM -0400 5/1/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Look, I can't buy *another* copy of all these things. Y'sure? O;> >Based on the chat, he got some books in, and one of his regular >groups that gamed in-store was now an IN group, and the books >are selling. *swoon* >Well, at least they're very prominently displayed books, with a >"Signed" tag under them.... Above them, as it happens. O:> The store owner says he's going to be putting in some more shelves so he can display the line better in a while -- at the moment, everything but the new releases are in a bookshelf with only the spines showing. >(I have about twenty-five people lined up to buy Superiors 4. Then, I >get them to buy other materials to understand Sup4, and soon they'll >be hooked! Hooked!) Oooooo. I obviously need to train my relatives that way. I've been sending my mom one of my comp copies... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:41:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books At 12:12 PM -0700 5/1/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >And what happens when the book sells out? Reprint. Not the new, better >edition everyone hoped for. This wasn't something I was happy with either. Partly, it apparently came about because at the time the decision "reprint or revision" came down -- I was having a quasi-emergency C-section. O:p (I also didn't realize it was about to sell out so quickly -- I'd thought it would be a few more months, so I hadn't been getting things organized to have it in early. Curse it.) At least it's not going to happen with the APG. I made some strong noises about _that_. This time for _sure_... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:46:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 3:36 PM -0500 5/1/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> Basically, ya gots to buy books to get books. > >If the books available aren't good enough for people to want to buy >them, I don't think you're going to be successful in trying to persuade >people: I know, I know, that's why I also wrote: "(The good existing stuff. I'll understand if you don't want to force someone to get, say, FotM if you don't think it's worth it.)" - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 13:44:03 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books Our spies report that on 04:41 PM 5/1/00 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy said: >At 12:12 PM -0700 5/1/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: > > >And what happens when the book sells out? Reprint. Not the new, better > >edition everyone hoped for. > >This wasn't something I was happy with either. Partly, it apparently >came about because at the time the decision "reprint or revision" >came down -- I was having a quasi-emergency C-section. O:p Personally, I don't care if you were giving birth, SJ was shot by snipers or Sean Punch got hit by a drunk driver. While all these things stir my emotions as a person, none of them will impact my business decisions and I do not think they should impact those of SJG either. Well, perhaps SJ dying would lead to a Malphas-sponsored battle for the throne, but... Someone should have been able to step up to the plate... if people in general wanted a rewrite, the LE wanted a rewrite and there was no compelling business reason to reprint the same junk.... it should have happened. What seems to be being said is that a lack of someone available to make a decision has completely voided the entire second edition idea. How can a company function like that? This isn't Bob's Basement Small Press Games.... this is Steve Jackson Games, the world-famous blah blah OGRE blah blah GURPS blah fnord blah Secret Service etc... etc... etc... Just ask yourself... What would an Elohite of Trade say? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 13:51:27 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: IN> Sniper gear We had a talk about kyriotates and GPS the other day. Apparently, GPS for civilians is being allowed to be more accurate as of ... today. Here's a press release: http://www.whitehouse.gov/library/PressReleases.cgi?date=0&briefing=0 Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:14:48 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books At 1:44 PM -0700 5/1/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Our spies report that on 04:41 PM 5/1/00 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy said: >>At 12:12 PM -0700 5/1/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >> >> >And what happens when the book sells out? Reprint. Not the new, better >> >edition everyone hoped for. >> >>This wasn't something I was happy with either. Partly, it apparently >>came about because at the time the decision "reprint or revision" >>came down -- I was having a quasi-emergency C-section. O:p > > > Personally, I don't care if you were giving birth, SJ was >shot by snipers or Sean Punch got hit by a drunk driver. While all >these things stir my emotions as a person, none of them will impact >my business decisions and I do not think they should impact those of >SJG either. That's a bit harsh, when you don't know what the full business decision and reasoning was (and neither does Beth, I suspect). Nor do we know what this means -- maybe they're doing a full print run. Maybe they're doing a small print run to "tide things over." Maybe they decided the line was selling well enough to justify reprinting rather than let the core rules go a long time without printing, because the tremendous workload shouldn't be rushed and the Line Editor, specifically hired to keep the Whole of the Line Pure, would be down for it. Let me put my Manager's cap on. There. It's fitting well and the points look nice. If I have a major systems upgrade that we've been planning to do, I've got my master plan, and suddenly we have a major systems crash midstream, about the same time my Systems Administrator gives birth, so she's out for the count for the next (indeterminant) bunch of weeks, with school still in session, do I.... 1) Go with the upgrade, which means a good block of weeks of downtime, plus my own workload quintupling since I have to be the Sysadmin, or hiring a new Sysadmin to temporarily take the place of my old Sysadmin (temporarily being key -- it's illegal to fire someone for breeding, y'kn0w) who doesn't know the system and doesn't know our plans, so there'll be training issues too, or else promote up (temporarily) my Software Support Tech, leaving the front counter empty while we try to get all this running, and leaving everything on my plate to go to pot while I try to do all of this, and *God* I hope it all works out of the box because there's no time to test any of it; or.... 2) Get a new server, restore backups, and limp along until the summer, when my Sysadmin will be back and the students will be gone? If I go with option 1, I'm letting my emotions as a person (and my desire to upgrade) carry me into a bad managerial decision. It doesn't matter if it was a good decision when my Sysadmin was available and we had a plan for when and how it would happen. The situation has changed. Look, I *really* want 2nd Ed, too. I want it badly enough that I can taste it. I think it could be the "launch event" IN uses to try and recapture some of the lost market after the delays from the original launch of the game. But that doesn't mean SJ et al made the *wrong* decision. Just one that doesn't suit the drives and desires of me, Eric Burns, a guy who's bought some books from them. Oh, and if Sean Punch were killed by a drunk driver, you'd better be *sure* GURPS stuff would go on hold. The worst thing you can do is lose a team member and let the system go on in automatic. You'll end up with shoddy product and an unsympathetic buying public. Don't ever underestimate the human factor in the team environment. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:28:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books At 1:44 PM -0700 5/1/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Our spies report that on 04:41 PM 5/1/00 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy said: > was having a quasi-emergency C-section. O:p > > Personally, I don't care if you were giving birth, SJ was shot by >snipers or Sean Punch got hit by a drunk driver. While all these things >stir my emotions as a person, none of them will impact my business >decisions and I do not think they should impact those of SJG either. With all due respect, SJGames isn't a large company -- if one of the "key people" is unavailable, there isn't anyone else who can fill those shoes. In a big company, yes, you'd be perfectly justified in not caring whether the Star Car Designer was ill that week or not. With a company of the small size SJGames is... I'm sorry, but whether my being unavailable _should_ affect the business decision or not is moot. The reality is that my availablity _does_ affect that. The main book was selling out, and the choice was to have a line with _no_ core book available, or reprint, because the author who had the time and expertise necessary to make a second edition -- was in the hospital, unexpectedly, and _didn't_ have the time. And SJGames may not be Bob's Bargain Basement -- but it's not got _that_ many more employees. It just manages them better. (Seriously, there's a Staff List at www.sjgames.general -- check it out. And remember that Line Editors aren't staff, per se -- we're freelancers who happen to have sold our souls away.. O:> ) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 14:31:20 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books I realize I am pushing the Evil(tm) perspective on all this. But to address the point Whistling in the Dark made first: Your example doesn't involve a product release and therefore is less relevant. Now....I realize that many companies do believe it's better to ship a bad product than to delay and ship a good product. There's the Microsoft way and there's the Blizzard way.* I happen to be a programmer and a perfectionist. I do not claim to be a Harvard MBA like the managers of my company. Just a caveman programmer. I do not undertand your ... analysis. But what I do know is this: I don't believe that revisions to existing Bad Books will ever happen. I most definitely do not believe this anymore. If H&H were to sell out and the question of reprint or revise came up, what would happen? Would we find out the print buyer was in a coma from some bad punch at the last office party and since no one knew what the prices for a different page count would be, ithe decision defaulted to 'do what we did last time' again? To put it mildly...ARGH! Well, I've spit enough acid for the time being. I'm going to go try to relax as I read one of my two copies of Superiors 2. A consequence of preordering from both FLGSs... Sean * Regarding Microsoft vs Blizzard, I am aware that metaphor can be turned a few different ways. I will credit everyone here with enough intelligence to know what I meant. If you feel the need to send a reply attacking that point in specific, I will simply take it as proof the responder couldn't grasp the arguement. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1603 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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