From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 2 04:56:11 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05467 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 04:56:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id EAA32132 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 04:53:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 04:53:42 -0500 Message-Id: <200005020953.EAA32132@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1605 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1605 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism RE: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Mage Stuff (was In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism) Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> Pushing Books RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> DC Tethers... Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> Genealogy Re: IN> Player mistakes Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements RE: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> stupid Kyriotate tricks, revisited. Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - IN> Cyber In Nomine (very long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:52:51 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism Neel mentions: >o Mage the Ascension > > Specifically Anders Sandberg's Mage webpages on the Technocracy. He > integrates supertech with the notion that magical tech is > fundamentally reflects the understanding and enlightenment of its > users. ( http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/mage.html ) Hey, good stuff here for you Mage-In Nomine people! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:51:55 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> RE: Players and Supplements stion as being: > > Should SJGames' In Nomine be about flavor or game mechanics? > > > > -Perry > There's an easy one. In Nomine mechanics really aren't too great- the game, I feel thrives on setting. I don't buy my In Nomine books because I love the way they build characters, I buy them because I love In Nomine and conflicts inherent in the setting. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:04:07 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Mage Stuff (was In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism) >>o Mage the Ascension >> >> Specifically Anders Sandberg's Mage webpages on the Technocracy. He >> integrates supertech with the notion that magical tech is >> fundamentally reflects the understanding and enlightenment of its >> users. ( http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/mage.html ) > >If you think about it, Mage dovetails with IN to a degree. After all, >Mage magic is perceptual -- almost the ultimate Balseraph attunement, >really. You Believe so hard in something that it forces it to be real. > >Under Mage, the Ethereals could very easily be right. Yahweh got >enough people to Believe his way that he got to rewrite the whole >world to his Symphony, and now history and physics match what the >Archangels and Demon Princes say they do.... > >Just think how terrified your players would be when suddenly a man >bends the Symphony to his own notes, and the Symphony responds more >completely than any Song could make it do... Oh, yes. I plan on this IMC, actually. I *was* going to do a V:TM cross-over, with all the newbie angels suddenly discovering an entire *society* of vampires seemingly coming out of the wood-work. Instead, I believe I'll be turning in my Children of the Grigori card and start churning out Mages . . . seemingly Psionics at first, if it weren't for the fact that it actually causes the Symphony to "get louder" (as described somewhere else on this list as an idea or something) locally (as its being done by a human and its NOT A SONG) . . . Then it starts to become clear to the PC's that while the first individual they've encountered may have merely possessed psychic powers, I'll spring on them something totally different, Wish Magick perhaps (you will it into happening), perhaps a child capable of creating candy out of thin air. Hrm... Lots of coincidental magick at first, then vulgar . . . neat, but I'll need a few paradigms to play with . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:55:33 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe From: > I could imagine that the Taoist ethreals are really > distrought by God's perversion of the Dao (the Way, which to them would be > the true nature of the Symphony). isn't taoism one of the religions that feeds essence to heaven, rather than producing ethereals? i haven't actually got the GMG myself, but i thought i recalled it being mentioned as one of them liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:55:25 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe From: Robert Veneman-Hughes > I've been toying with the idea of Ethereals being a little more abstract and > Word-like in the essence they receive that could fit in with the "primal" ethereals who appear in the marches sourcebook. the element they're linked to could work something like a Word liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:12:31 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > > I kinda feel that In Nomine was written in such a way to attempt to give > > GM's the same freedom of setting freedom as they have in GURPS. >However, I > > ask you, is that what most GM's want? > >A good point, and I think the answer is NO. And I would tend to agree, if only because of the sheer lack of imagination I've perceived in so many people (at least compared to the perceived amount of imagination in my friends). I blame Nybbas's spoon-feeding techniques . . . the boob-tube has weaken out imaginations . . . > > If IN is to be SJGames response to WW, I believe it needs more setting, >as > > X-Files last night described: FLAVOR. > >I don't think IN is SJGames "response to WW." (It would be nice if IN >had a fraction of WW's sales, though -- something I think is highly >unlikely at this point, because IMO, if a new game doesn't catch on and >attract a major following in the first year after its release, it never >will.) that's cruddy... > > The two stories in the front of the Core Book arer excellent. Hell, one >of > > the main reason I purchased the Book of Relics was the friggin' stories >in > > the front!! > >OTOH, we've had a fair number of people bitching about how much they >HATE the vignettes (or vignettes in general). hm. Maybe SJGames has been catering to those who don't like the (over)flavored style of WW . . . hrm . . . could SJGames capture more of the greater gaming market with more flavor and vignettes?? hrm... - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:35:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - At 4:42 PM -0700 5/1/00, Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: >I am in the midst of writing some rules and background for In Nomine >Cyberpunk... When I finish them, I'll post them to the list. If the total exceeds about 10 K, please don't post them to the list -- it does nasty things to the digest and makes it far more likely that mailquotas will be exceeded (causing bounces, causing u-n-s-u-bbing, causing other hassles, etc.). Exerpts and URLs for the main thing are _much_ better. If you work slowly enough, posting snippets here and there is also not awful -- Dark Victory managed that. But whole big chunks tend to have a bad effect on the mechanics of things. Which makes me, your occasionally-friendly list admin, very very unfriendly. O;> (And no, don't post them to the list _at all_ if it exceeds 10K, unless there is defintely a digest or two between them. Several "smaller" messages that total above that level are just as bad as one big one.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:25:11 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books Beth says: >If everything nosedives, I think I can guarentee that the line will >die unless I get independantly wealthy enough to subsidize the ones >I like. (Which, mind, I'd love to do. If everyone sends me about $100, >I might be able to invest it appropriately... *ahem*) > >So -- which do you want? An entirely dead line, or a second printing >that can continue to pull in _some_ people (*) so that the other >books will keep selling? REPRINT! REPRINT! REPRINT! REPRINT! REPRINT! REPRINT! REPRINT! I heartily support it. (At this moment in time. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:35:48 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - ::hangs his head:: I'll be good. I promise. The last one was 16k... I'll keep the rest under 10. If no one is interested, I won't post them at all. - -Robert > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Elizabeth McCoy > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 5:36 PM > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque > Terrorism - > > > At 4:42 PM -0700 5/1/00, Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > >I am in the midst of writing some rules and background for In Nomine > >Cyberpunk... When I finish them, I'll post them to the list. > > If the total exceeds about 10 K, please don't post them to the list -- > it does nasty things to the digest and makes it far more likely that > mailquotas will be exceeded (causing bounces, causing u-n-s-u-bbing, > causing other hassles, etc.). Exerpts and URLs for the main thing > are _much_ better. > > If you work slowly enough, posting snippets here and there is also > not awful -- Dark Victory managed that. But whole big chunks tend to > have a bad effect on the mechanics of things. Which makes me, your > occasionally-friendly list admin, very very unfriendly. O;> > > (And no, don't post them to the list _at all_ if it exceeds > 10K, unless > there is defintely a digest or two between them. Several "smaller" > messages that total above that level are just as bad as one big one.) > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:37:24 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - I need a bit of inspiration... I am doing a basic write-up of Orc as the recently promoted Archangel of Networks, and I am struggling for a dissonance condition... One fitting with the cyberpunk genre in which he'll exist might be best, but I'm not sure... Thoughts? - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:28:04 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > Maybe SJGames has been catering to those who don't like the (over)flavored > style of WW . . . hrm . . . could SJGames capture more of the greater > gaming market with more flavor and vignettes?? hrm... > I GM In Nomine. About 70% canon and diverging rapidly. I play Cyberpunk and a homebrewed fantasy game. I've never gotten anywhere near a WW style game. But. I *read* them. Even though I don't know the first thing about the game system and I've had to have my faithful partner in crime come in and explain some of the references to the Storyteller system throughout these threads for me. Yup. I have a deep, dark, secret. I was even given a copy of the Book of Nod as a gift this year. And when my partner sold off his WW collection shortly after we moved in together, I made him keep a copy of the Cult of Ecstacy book for me, 'cause it was the only one of the bunch I'd already read and I loved it. My absolute favorite piece of *any* of the IN books (and I own all of them to date) is a vignette in Liber Castellorium involving Sariel, one of David's Senschals. I have saved email folders for cool NPC's (and I'm much more interested in the flavortext than in the stats) and cool vignettes that are posted to the IN list. Things I am most likely to bring into my games are things I can get a good feel for. I see a writeup I like, it has a flavor that I think is cool, it's likely to get game time. Y'know what's frightening? I suspect I'm pretty normal when it comes to gamers. I read a lot, and I particularly enjoy reading flavortext in game systems. Game mechanics don't make a game. I can always jimmy those as need be (I'm revamping the experience point system at the moment.) But good flavortext is a work of art that helps bring a world alive. And before anyone pulls out the ol' "gosh, you just have to be more creative" routine on me, let me add that I shamelessly borrow from any source I can if it's a good story. Even if I *didn't* work 60 hours a week and have a family, pets, house, and social life to deal with when I'm not gaming. Good flavortext sparks the imagination in a way that game mechanics just... well... don't. The Superiors books are a vast improvement over the Revelations cycle. But I'm not chomping at the bit for the next one to get to print, even though I'll either pre-order it or buy it as soon as its available. A lot of good flavortext for the game, however, *would* get me chomping at the bit. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:55:16 -0500 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> DC Tethers... >Austin is nearly 150 years old (I'd have to check the exact date of the >city's founding, but I am certain it was before the Civil War--heck, UT is >over 100 years old itself, and Austin predates Varsity). Austin was around when Texas became an independent country back in 1836, though I think it was still called Waterloo at the time, and rather dinky and insignificant. >Its population is >a hair over half a million, but if you include all the bedroom communities, >outlying suburbs, associated metropolites, and so on, it probably gets up >to about 650K. The "slightly over half a million" figure is from 1990 census. Austin has ballooned since then. The city proper is estimated to have 750k-800k people, and the greater Austin area, including Round Rock and other outlying communities, surpassed a million a few years ago. (At one point, people were moving into Austin at the rate of 2,000 per week!) - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:31:34 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players > Since a fair number of new people have joined the list since I last > posted it, I will, if asked, post my own "Christian Mods" for IN > to the list, or send them to individuals who might be curious. > There is some resemblance to the Christian IN section of the GMG, > since David Edelstein was kind enough to ask for my input there. Post Please! The Other David ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 2000 02:27:47 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players sure, i'd like to see your "Christian Mods" for IN, Earl. post 'em, please. -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 21:48:36 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books Sean McCarthy wrote: > * Regarding Microsoft vs Blizzard, I am aware that metaphor can be turned a > few different ways. I will credit everyone here with enough intelligence to > know what I meant. If you feel the need to send a reply attacking that > point in specific, I will simply take it as proof the responder couldn't > grasp the arguement. Ah, wonderful. Someone who admits he doesn't know s*** about marketing, business, or company management, but then proceeds to rant about how HE thinks things should be done, and everyone who disagrees with him is a moron. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 21:55:12 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Perry Lloyd wrote: > that's cruddy... Yes, it is, but having just gotten my second royalty check for the GMG, and thus seeing the difference in sales between the first quarter after it came out and the second.... well, I figure I might be able to budget a few Starbucks Cafe Mochas on my expected earnings from future royalties. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 21:57:50 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> Genealogy >From: Earl Wajenberg > but do the archangels consider their creations to be something akin to > their children? and do angels look up to their superiors as not just > "the boss" but also "mum"? In my recently ended F2F campaign, I had the PC's pretty much calling their Superiors 'Mom' (Or 'Dad', in the case of the Creationer). But then, I think it hadda do with the fact there was Free Lilim in the group too. . . I also have noted that my Creationer in my ongoing online campaign mentions Eli as her 'father'. YMMV, of course. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:59:29 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Player mistakes > Dear Lista Lista > On Subject of creating a high power campaign - I just started a new one , but my > players have just shifted from the Hack and Slash RPG's [whose names I withold :D]. > What should a player emphasise in their characters - and how would a GM such as > yourselfs go about encouraging that? Well, I play in Kiara's Hi-Test campaign and I run my own two (non-IN) campaigns that are def. Hi-Power, so I think I can offer some helpful advice... 1- If the players are very powerful then try to keep in kind that they should be working on developing *organizations* that work for them... Ie. Powerful Servitors of War should have a Warband that they command. As a Gm you can treat this in any way that you want, let the each player run thier own group and come up with some very involved plot to keep them all occupied or have one player play the leader and the rest part of his organization. I suggest the former despite the fact that it is way more work in a great many ways. The beauty is that now each player has as whole stable of PC's to play with (within limits because I/we have always taken the view that the Warband is still a bunch of NPC's, despite letting the player run them for the most part) Otherwise the other players tend to get bent out shape with the one person who gets the limelight. 2- Make the characters remember that they are playing "beings akin to Gods" and either are out there to tear down God's stated order or work to support the Divine Plan. Treasure... who cares? Body Count... well if you're War, the War, or the Sword it's important but they are pretty much the only ones that it matters *that* much for. Power... At this level a character doesn't *need* more power for fracks sake. Sit down and look at how much a 15 Force Celestial with a 15 Force Word and the appropriate number of Songs, Attunements, and Distinctions can actually do Canon game mechanics. In Nomine is about the battle for men's (and women's, and little furry creatures from Alpha Centauri) *soul's*. Have them rescue a Remnant, find a lost or hidden Major Ethereal Tether and deal with it (hmmm, the City of Ys indeed...), have children, protect the Last Scion from losing Faith, whatever. Of course you could have the Cthulhu gods return if they really want hack and slash... 3- Run with it... Campaigns set at this level write themselves. The GM merely runs herd. 4- Get the In Nomine Game Master's Guide and a copy of "Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads. The Unexpurgated Cyberpunk Referee's Guide" Buy it, borrow it, Steal it. It is *hands down* the best GM's guide to campaign building out there. Some of the Cyberpunk References won't make any sense if you don't know the game (and none if you don't know the genre) but the guidelines for a GM building and running a character rich campaign are not to be found anywhere else... That's enough for now The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 21:34:02 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > Basically, ya gots to buy books to get books. I already *own* all the books... And the players don't need, and shouldn't have, most of the rest of the product line as it stands right now other than the MRB, a PG, and mayby a Superiors guide, or the LC and/or LR. GURPS markets to every player having a copy of whatever Sourcebook the campaign is being run in. IN cannot do this because *it* *won't* *work* Imagine WoTC trying to tell every AD&D player that they had to buy every Module, Monsterous Compendium, Sourcebook, whatever for a certain campaign setting in order to play it. No-matter if they were player or DM. > If the books available aren't good enough for people to want to buy > them, I don't think you're going to be successful in trying to persuade > people: "I know Heaven & Hell isn't what you want, but if you buy it, > then someday you *might* get the book on Hell that you _really_ want." > You're essentially asking people to buy mediocre product to encourage > the company to produce more (*hopefully* better, but no guarantees) > product. That does pretty much seem to be the ways it appears from out here on the consumer side from the general tone of the "Powers that Be" > Or to put it another way, I think SJG's marketing strategy may be > flawed: the fact that H&H hasn't sold well doesn't necessarily mean that > Hell wouldn't. It *might* mean that H&H just wasn't that good, but a > really well-done follow-up might sell better. I am afraid that IN was damn near killed by a hiatus before being published (thank you Secret Service!) and then a complete lack of memorable marketing, and then the Final Trumpet blew... Hey, I was buying RPG product for a chain of 8 store at the time and there was reason that I did *not* put the game anywhere... except at "my" store and the other store that could (and would) sell anything. The reason was that the support the game, frankly, sucked, and no-one wanted to buy it. Face it, WW really did change the way a lot of people viewed the manner in which a game needed to be supported. Remember Vampire? A supplement came out every month for Pete's sake for the first year, and they weren't always $20 dollar book either. And for the most part they were well written, mostly well laid out, had great art that was consistant, and they never forget who thier audience was. That's what consumers want... If the they have to buy another copy then they don't feel to bad because they only spent $10-$15 and when the inevitable reprint comes it doesn't hurt. But man, that hunger was fed... (please forgive the vague pun). Mind you I am not advocating a Malakim Choirbook now but the initial impact that IN had has been lost if there was any. > I do know that I too have seen In Nomine books gathering dust on local > game store shelves, and frankly, I think In Nomine has a small hardcore > following that *may* be large enough to sustain the line, at a modest > level of production, but it's never going to "catch on" and make enough > money to fund all your dream projects (or mine). Sustain the line?, only SJ knows, but I don't think anyone in the new economy will do well or even survive if they target at a hardcore following... The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 21:39:34 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements > Perry Lloyd wrote: > > that's cruddy... > > > Yes, it is, but having just gotten my second royalty check for the GMG, > and thus seeing the difference in sales between the first quarter after > it came out and the second.... well, I figure I might be able to budget > a few Starbucks Cafe Mochas on my expected earnings from future > royalties. I would second Davids observation with my own experience from behind the game store counter. If it doesn't take off in the first year (and really the first quarter) then it's not going to really be a mover and a shaker in the RPG universe. Sad but true. The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:02:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: RE: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:36:38 -0500From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) >I do know that I too have seen In Nomine books >gathering dust on local game store shelves, and >frankly, I think In Nomine has a small hardcore >following that *may* be large enough to sustain the >line, at a modest level of production, but it's never >going to "catch on" and make enough money to fund all >your dream projects (or mine).- - >David Speaking as one of the aforementioned hardcore following (I have the complete run, I haunt the playtests and the discussion groups, and I even have a very pitiful page of wildly Heretical stuff, so I'm even gleefully hardcore), I may be overly optimistic, but I'm pretty sure that the sales will be going up on this stuff eventually. I got into this line out of boredom: I finally caught up on SJG's Other RPG (I'm hardcore on it, too), I was desperately looking for new products to throw money at, and I trust Steve Jackson not to market crap, so I broke down and bought the core rules. I came back three days later and dropped $80 on IN material. I had it all within a couple of months. I think that getting that first sale is the key: one of the reasons why I was happy to see SJGORPG IN in playtest, although I'll never run such a campaign. The hardline Other RPG players will look at it, play with it a little ... and then get sucked in just as I was (IMHO). Oh, and for one last bit of optimism run mad, I'm reminded of a little conversation I had with somebody from my FNGS. I was trying to pick up CF material long out of print, and we got to talking. It would seem that games crossed over with SJG's Other RPG tend to see higher sales, once the the Other RPG crossover appears... Well, we'll see. :) Morgan, FAW Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Attaboys That Make People Want to Kick You Through A Wall __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:28:20 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books I am rebuked. Thus spoke David: > Sean McCarthy wrote: > > * Regarding Microsoft vs Blizzard, I am aware that metaphor can be turned a > > few different ways. I will credit everyone here with enough intelligence to > > know what I meant. If you feel the need to send a reply attacking that > > point in specific, I will simply take it as proof the responder couldn't > > grasp the arguement. > > > Ah, wonderful. Someone who admits he doesn't know s*** about marketing, > business, or company management, but then proceeds to rant about how HE > thinks things should be done, and everyone who disagrees with him is a > moron. > You know, the one thing I didn't do was personally flame anyone. I did comment that anyone who wanted to play games with that metaphor rather than address the point clearly wasn't getting it. You aren't addressing the point either, but at least you are picking on the disclaimer rather than the metaphor. Why can't I rant about how I think things should be done? Really, why? I am, of course, used to this sort of thing. It may amuse some people to know that one person sent me(off list) a scathing retort to my criticism of Microsoft. Not that I did criticize Microsoft. Which made me realize the Metaphor(Worship the Metaphor) must really HAVE been too vague. I do not care if people attack my points, but let me now clear up the metaphor used. Microsoft does Serious Software. Important things run on them. Lots of money is involved and not just in sales, but in the uses of the applications. Yet it's not firmware for pacemakers or anything, so sometimes they have to ship with a few 'issues' in the product so that the whole system doesn't grind to a halt. Blizzard makes games. Nothing terrible will happen if Diablo II or Warcraft 3 gets delayed. They can take their time to get things perfect(Observe the development history for Diablo II if you doubt this) because of the nature of their product. In Nomine is also a game. The difference between software and paper RPGs is that keeping Diablo in print isn't going to prevent Diablo II from coming to market. In contrast, it appears that this is the case here. THEREFORE it is my belief that if the choice is between better product or something on the shelves more quickly in the case of a game, a better product would be a good choice. Computer game or paper game, I do not feel it makes a difference if you have a quality product. So please don't attack me personally. When I made my points against SJG I tried to avoid fingering anyone. That's not meaningful. But I feel someone made a mistake in all this or possibly several someones each made part of a mistake. Blame is irrelevant. I just want people to hear me. I realize I've been on the list waaaay too long to fall under the 'please don't flame the newbies' protection, but surely a little civility wouldn't hurt? I of course will shed the napalm of flaming like a duck sheds flubber, but not everyone would necessarily do that. And you didn't even attack my arguement. Just me. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:57:17 -0500 From: Jonathan B Lotzer Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > I am in the midst of writing some rules and background for In Nomine > Cyberpunk... When I finish them, I'll post them to the list. What I have so > far is a half-coherent history of the world up to 2020 - here you go. > > -Robert (major snippage) *wicked laughter* Ahhhh, the pieces are finally coming together for my ultimate goal to bastardize over a half dozen different game systems together. This and GURPS IN should finally make the massive conversions feasible. *ahems* Ever have those times when you want to take elements out of seemingly too many disparate games for a campaign? I've been working on introducing elements from: IN, several GURPS source books, Cybergeneration, Call of Cuthulu, Armageddon, Nightbane and The Everlasting together for a few years. If anyone is interested, I could send a general outline of how I plan to put all these elements together, just don't have that much work done on it right now. Hopefully, if/when I get this fledgling world going, it will be as cool as I hope. Jonathan B Lotzer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 21:48:37 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - >From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:37:24 -0700 > >I need a bit of inspiration... I am doing a basic write-up of Orc as the >recently promoted Archangel of Networks, and I am struggling for a >dissonance condition... One fitting with the cyberpunk genre in which he'll >exist might be best, but I'm not sure... > It's dissonant to fail to check your email twice a minute jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:01:23 -0400 From: "Caias Brian Ward" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - It's dissonant to not be logged on and *active* at least 1 hour a day. Points of dissionance gained for inactivity can be erased by 2 additional hours per point of dissonance (missing a day required 3 hours to active logged-on time Caias - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jo Hart To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 12:48 AM Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - > >From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" > >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >To: > >Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - > >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:37:24 -0700 > > > >I need a bit of inspiration... I am doing a basic write-up of Orc as the > >recently promoted Archangel of Networks, and I am struggling for a > >dissonance condition... One fitting with the cyberpunk genre in which he'll > >exist might be best, but I'm not sure... > > > > It's dissonant to fail to check your email twice a minute ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:03:34 +1000 From: "Shane and family" Subject: Re: IN> stupid Kyriotate tricks, revisited. > IIRC, civilian GPS is usually around 3m to 100m, depending > on the amount of money you wish to spend. So it probably > isn't feasible unless you've got military grade GPS. Even > then, resolution is I think about 1m (imagine that you're ... > Now, 1cm resolution plus the Vassal of Lightning... then > the demon should be really worrying. ... Speak of the demon... saw on slashdot today, the USgov has turned off the SA error for civ receivers. Reading through, seems if you've got the money, 1cm resolution is indeed achievable. Aie. Point-and-shoot-Kyrios. ObIN: the angel PCs in my campaign got to meet their very first Demon Prince last Friday night. Scared them witless. :) Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 02:39:45 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > On the *other* hand, when we're discussing Frequently Asked Questions > or even infrequently asked questions about In Nomine here on the > list, do we honestly have to follow every answer with "unless of > course you don't want to do it that way?" Or can we simply answer > simple questions with simple answers, and be done with it? Simple Questions? Humm... I think the simple questions get simple answers. Example: Can ethereal enter the celestial plane? No. It's the complex questions that get complex answers. Example: Why not? Well... Matthew Demon of Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games (sure sounds better than Demon of EverQuest dosn't it?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 03:41:42 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > > I need a bit of inspiration... I am doing a basic write-up of Orc as the > recently promoted Archangel of Networks, and I am struggling for a > dissonance condition... One fitting with the cyberpunk genre in which he'll > exist might be best, but I'm not sure... > > Thoughts? It is dissonant for an Angel of Networks to stop the flow of information. Bonus Rite: Get Root access to a Network. At least that's how I'd do it in a Cyberpunkish IN. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:54:06 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Cyber In Nomine (very long) <<< Has anyone written anything about Cybernetics in the world of In Nomine. (...) Anyone have any ideas or suggestions? (John Kuan) >>> <<< Angels and Demons would be mighty indeed, since their vessels could come complete with the very best in Heavenly cybernetics -- all wired to explode if tampered with, to avoid it falling into mortal hands. (ben) >>> Actually, I thought about it for a while, but that's not the way I'd see it. Sorry if this idea already appeared on the replies, but I had 171 IN messages this morning, so I "read" them very very quickly... The way I see it, cybertechnology was discovered by a soldier of Hell in service to Vapula. Of course, the brilliant doctor got some celestial help. It was a major achievement on a medical point of view. Not only a way to cure nervous diseases, replace lost or paralysed limbs, it would also make them stronger and faster. Also, it is a very prosperous (is that correct?) business. This guy who lost his legs when he was a kid, how much do you think he'd be willing to pay to get cybernetic legs and walk again? This new technology was obviously a good thing for all, and that is why angels didn't try to stop it. But then, like many things, and as planed by Vaputech marketing departement, it got corrupted. Governments used cybertechnology to create super soldiers with in-built weapons, light-speed reflexes and armored-skin. And of course, this was adapted to civilian use, and street combat cybertechnology appeared. It was very illegal of course, but it was there. The spread and evolution of cybertechnology was very fast. In less than two years, it was everywhere, and nobody could see it coming. The side effects. Like any Vaputech made device, cybertechnology was bugged. It was conflicting with the hosts. Not with the meat body, but with the soul. Mankind was created to God's image, and this new difference was just too much. Like a Celestial gains dissonance for acting against its own nature, cyber-improved humans got soul-sick from these "improvements". The side-effects varied from one host to another, but the most common would be paranoia, violent behaviour, etc. Also, cybertech made by Vaputech is highly adictive. It binds itself to the human soul, and removing it is a bit like chopping off a piece of the soul. Most of the time, the host doesn't survive, and if it does, it will never fully recover. Cybertechnology can only be adapted to corporeal creatures (i.e. humans, animals). It just doesn't work with vessels. Some servitors of Vapula found some tricks to make it work, but there are malfunctions, and whenever the demon goes celestial, he leaves his cyber limb behind. Cyberstuff just doesn't go celestial with the Demon. Jean's engineers have been working long and hard on this, and came up with a bug-free cybertechnology. Of course, they can't use it on angels, so they started recruiting more soldiers in order to stop Hell's troups. They are also trying to replace Vapula cybertechnology products with the help of Marc, to "clean" the market. Of course, this is my own vision of it, and cyber-angels would probably be just as good. Just thought some might like the idea... Laurent. PS: This brings up the level of humans (which I think is way to low) to a near celestial level, at least on the corporeal side. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1605 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.