From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 2 09:56:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27312 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:56:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA12540 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:52:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:52:36 -0500 Message-Id: <200005021452.JAA12540@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1606 In this digest: RE: IN> Cyber In Nomine (very long) IN> Flavortext (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) IN> What happened? Re: IN> What happened? IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> Pushing Books IN> Christian Mods Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Genealogy Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 03:20:17 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> Cyber In Nomine (very long) Laurent's got one idea. Here's another. I warn you, its rough - when I write the IN2020 (Whoever coined that term, I like it) Cybertech section, this will be more detailed. Here we go: Cybertechnology is what it appears to be. Its a great, good way to increase your abilities. Mostly. Basic cyber-upgrades - strength and agility mods - are really hassle-free, apart from the gangs looking to sell your limbs on the black market. As far as points go, one point of cyber-strength or cyber-agility costs one point. This doesn't add to your normal attribute - it replaces it. So, if you want a strength 8 arm, it will cost you 8 points. Of course, this doesn't increase Forces and it doesn't affect your body hits, and it has its own societal problems. Now, I am less decided when dealing with the metaphysical impact of cybertech. A common theme in cyberpunk is giving up man for the machine - how does that work in game terms? The most simplistic thought is to keep it to a fairly physiological level. When you start buying reflex implants that start acting like the Art of Combat attunement, you rack up Ethereal and Celestial discords. Mankind was not meant to be messing with the nervous system - a little psychosis is the result. Addictions and other drug-related disorders fall into this category. To me, that feels a little cheap, however. In Nomine is a game about religion and mythology, about the interaction between the physical and the metaphysical. The philosophical concerns with cybertechnology need to represented, I feel, in game in some relatively quantifyable manner - after all, we quantify the rest of metaphysics in IN, why not this? One thought I had, for humans at least, was that if you couldn't consciously spend essence, all of your essence is unconsciously funnelled into the cybertechnology. This means that Heaven, at least, has some interest in not seeing cybertech become wide-spread, because humanity literally is pouring its soul into the technology. Of course, it is fine for angels and soldiers to use cybertech - after all, they are better than humanity. I think that this then becomes a second level of cyber-ethics - after all, the angels are being elitist hypocrites. For them, the effects of cybertech should be at once less obvious and less crippling but ultimately more dangerous. I'm not so sure what I want the effect on celestials to be... Preferrably, it would make something easier for angels that really wasn't much of a boon. I'm really fond of handing players rope and letting them hang themselves. I don't have a good solution for this upper-level ethical challenge, however - I'd love suggestions from the field. I'll think more about it myself as well. I'm now going to go back to reading Sandman - after all, it's 3:30 in the morning. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 07:28:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Flavortext (Re: Players and Supplements) At 7:28 PM -0500 5/1/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: > A lot of good >flavortext for the game, however, *would* get me chomping at the bit. Hmmmm... Some of the lack of flavortext in some of the subsequent books may be a reaction to the unclarity of the flavorful text in the main book... Flavor is all well and good, but if it makes for unclear mechanics... Ew. Making clear, flavorful stuff -- that's harder. I _tried_ to do that in all the stuff I wrote for GURPS IN (yes, a -lot- of the flavortext is rewritten; a goodly chunk isn't, and I can't even remember the percentages at this moment). It would actually be a boon to me if, when GURPS IN comes out, you could flip through it (in the store, sure) and tell me if it works for you, in the flavorful parts? Another factor in deemphasizing of flavortext was that, if I recall correctly, there was a time when the screams were, "Screw the flavortext, give us some _meat_ so we can run this game instead of the author's fiction!" (Paraphrased somewhat...) IOW, when the question got asked, "Okay, you want a vignette here, you playtester(s) -- what rules section do you want cut out of this book to make room?", the answer was, " I want both, but I want the rules more." If there's now enough meat that it can have the Special Herbs And Spices as well, that's certainly a datapoint... Which vignettes do you like, which do you hate? (I'm counting the little soundbites in the Liber Servitorum there, too...) Now, I'll tell you what _I_ slaver and drool for, and that's for SJGames to get the _fiction_ license. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe someday. No telling what the asking price is. *sigh* - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 07:28:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 9:34 PM -0500 5/1/00, David Rodemaker wrote: >> Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> > Basically, ya gots to buy books to get books. > >[...] GURPS >markets to every player having a copy of whatever Sourcebook the campaign >is being run in. I don't know if it does, actually -- it may also market to GMs primarily. It's just that there are _SO_ many more GURPS players-who-buy and GMs out there that it doesn't hurt. > IN cannot do this because *it* *won't* *work* Until the GM-base gets bigger, people who want to support the game need to throw money at it, is the basic problem. Which I think spirals back to the reprint issue that started this -- if new GMs (or players who just _do_ buy everything) aren't drawn into the system by core rules, then those GMs won't buy the other material, and you can guess the rest. I don't think that IN _does_ have the assumption that players are going to buy Every Single Book. Me, I'll push the line on everyone I meet, even if they're playing Call of Cthulhu ("No, really, think about having a crazy Archangel wandering around and occasionally SMITEing something! You could say that even the Divine fails their SAN rolls sometimes!") -- because I want to see the next books _myself_ sooner rather than later. >Imagine WoTC >trying to tell every AD&D player that they had to buy every Module, >Monsterous Compendium, Sourcebook, whatever for a certain campaign setting >in order to play it. No-matter if they were player or DM. I thought that's what TSR _did_ rely on... O:> (Actually, I have no idea for sure, but it certainly _seemed_ that way...) Again, though, they have a far larger GM-base than IN does. I bet the number of DMs who buy AD&D material every month is probably about fifty times the number of people who even _play_ IN. But I could be pessimistic. >That does pretty much seem to be the ways it appears from out here on the >consumer side from the general tone of the "Powers that Be" *sigh* There is also the other half of the process I mentioned, which included writing and asking for something. "I flipped through H&H in the store and it's really superficial. Please, can't someone write a more detailed book?" (Which I did mention, really I did.) >I am afraid that IN was damn near killed by a hiatus before being published >(thank you Secret Service!) I don't think you can blame them for that -- that was Cyberpunk. I hear rumors, though, that the system and main book went through at least three MAJOR revisions before it was deemed acceptable... I can't talk about "who's to blame" there because A: I have inside knowledge to form my opinions on, and B: sharing that would be mean to various people who I'd rather not be mean to, no da? > and then a complete lack of memorable marketing, >and then the Final Trumpet blew... Believe me, I know, I know. There's a reason why I'm rather bitter about the LE interregnum. O:p I mean, umpty authors, right at a time when the line needed somebody's vision. _Anybody's_ vision. Just so long as it wasn't _every_body's vision... That's another thing fans can do -- rpg.net has all these reviews, and the Rev Cycle ones are, deservedly, rather biting. If there were more reviews of the _later_ material, maybe it would help, via word-of-mouth. (Soundbites: "Man, this stuff has gotten _so_ much better! Ya gotta pick up this book!" Etc.) Maybe some GMs who bought a "bad book" or two would be drawn back to at least look at one of the _good_ books. Heck, a well-done review of a book that the reviewer _doesn't_ like can pique interest if it makes the tone/style clear and someone who _likes_ that sort of thing reads it. And you don't have to pay money for _that_. O:> At 8:02 PM -0700 5/1/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Oh, and for one last bit of optimism run mad, [...] It would >seem that games crossed over with SJG's Other RPG tend >to see higher sales, once the the Other RPG crossover >appears... This is something that I am hoping and praying for. (And one of the reasons I was wondering if the flavor of GURPS IN was good enough...) See, GURPS is big enough that it has these people who just buy Every Single GURPS Book (except the ones they get playtest copies of), and if some of _them_ get hooked on IN... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:16:30 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> What happened? Wow, I don't submit for one whole day and the board turns into a discussion of marketing strategy :) That's okay. Probably just my divine punishment for writing the longest e-mails in history. Here's another one. First off, let me apologize to Eric (aka Whistling in the Dark). My criticism of "following canon" wasn't intended to be a criticism of "having canon." I do enjoy reading supplements a great deal, because many of the ideas inspire me with campaign nuances that I wouldn't have thought of otherwise. My comments were probably, as you said, part of a knee-jerk reaction to "following canon." I will try to refrain from that in the future. Next, I totally disagree with Emily on the mood/focus of In Nomine. IN is far more than just a supernatural superheroes game. I have always been bored with supers games because they are usually have clear-cut answers, limited powers and abilities, and no sense of the darkness and horror that comes from living in a society that thrives on fear and violence (like ours does). Supers games are a simplified version of life based on generalizations. IN, on the other hand, is based on the complexities and grey areas of life: belief, faith, trust, good, evil, truth, fate, possibilities, etc. Therefore, it asks more of the important questions that lead to good role-playing. In addition, In Nomine is the greatest game in the world to examine faith issues. If not in IN, then where? You can't do it in fantasy games where sourcebooks tell you how many hit points your god has. Dieties and belief systems are supposed to be vague, undefined masses of metaphysical mess. That's what makes them interesting. On that note, responding to the question of what we want in IN supplements, I would be completely happy with anything that came out as long as it fits within the original concept and feel of the game. I am not saying this to limit the originality and creativity of what should be released. The original idea of IN is so vast and broad that almost anything could fit safely into the game world. However, I disagree with the insinuations of some posters that In Nomine should be more like GURPS. Personally, I say "God forbid." GURPS is all about specifics and details. Want to play a game about a Aztec-based magic-using society living in a giant spaceship at the center of a blackhole? Fine. After buying a few supplement books, you have all the information you need right in front of you. To me, that kind of gaming seems to limit the personal nature of role-playing. The ideas you set forth in a game are so much more wonderful if they come from your own collective imagination. Sure, there are cases where you need more information to base ideas on, but GURPS thrives on gamers' need to buy more and more supplements for their game. I'm not disagreeing with the way GURPS is managed. I think it works very well for the GURPS system. However, IN is not GURPS and should never be treated like GURPS. Where GURPS is based on specifics, IN is esentially the big picture. Issues like faith and the nature of God can't be spelled out in a supplement. If they ever are, it's time for me to stop playing IN. Likewise, not having canon material on every single major city in the world is not a bad thing. IN is not the World of Darkness either. We don't need a "_______ by Night" series. What IN needs to do is to find a way of doing IN supplements that is unique and particular to the IN world and system. Personally, I love what they've done already with all the Superiors books and Player's Guide for the different realms. Both having superiors and the various realms are things unique to IN and the supplements should reflect that. Wow, I've written a lot already. But just one more point, y'all. This is in response to the criticism that my Milton-based campaign isn't very theologically interesting. I guess I must have not explained myself very well, if you think that. My take goes like this. - - In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Angels (all of the original angels at one time). Lucifer was created chief of the angelic hosts, with Michael a close second. - - Then, in a event of vague circumstances (since it happened before the creation of time), the Son was exalted above all the angels. Now, whether the Son was created at the moment he was exalted is a matter of controversy. Also, the nature of the Son is completely unknown since, like God, he retired to the Empyreum after the events of "Paradise Lost." - - Lucifer, angry at not being the favorite son anymore, led 1/3 of the angels in a revolt, finally being thrown down into Hell by Michael and/or the Son. - - After that, the Son with attending angels was sent to create the world. - - Eden was created as part of the Ineffable Plan (not as a contest between God and Satan). Satan sneaks into the Garden, possesses Snake, the first of its kind, and spoils everything. - - Okay, so far, I know it sounds like I'm supporting Milton and Christianity over anything else but there are a few complications that I've added to this. I don't consider myself a Christian, so I have no problems with not following "the Books" in my campaign. - - First off, though the Son sounds very Christian, he's not. The Jews believe that the Son/the Messiah is still to come, so it fits into their belief system. Christians believe that the Son already took on corporeal form in the person of Jesus of Nazareth (something that causes a bit of controversy in Heaven, Yves and Gabriel didn't tell the other archangels about their starting of Christianity until Jesus was dead and it was impossible to identify whether he was the corporeal vessel of the Son). - - Finally, the Ethereal Heresy (which has also corrupted the Host and the Horde), says that God is simply another Ethereal power that has grown too big. They laugh at the idea that He created the earth. So, as you can see, it's much more complex. If you read all the way down to this point, you have my congratulations and sympathy. Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:30:09 -0400 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> What happened? From: > Wow, I've written a lot already. But just one more point, y'all. This is in > response to the criticism that my Milton-based campaign isn't very > theologically interesting. I think a Miltonic campaign sounds great! Of course, I'm a theatre major with a Shakespeare emphasis, so my perspective might be a bit skewed. I think you should make your players speak in blank verse, though, to get the true flavor of the thing. I'm also curious as to whether or not anyone has undergone a Dantean campaign. Anyone? Maybe something with Soldiers or mundanes would work... Something like a group of them being led through the Inferno by a celestial of some sort, who then gets killed, leaving them stranded, in Hell, with nothing but their wits to rely on. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 21:01:41 From: John "The Apocalypse" Kuan Subject: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Dear David - You information , yes - absolutely valuable , and I have saved you email as further reference to better myself as both a Storyteller and a Game Master. However - my problem is not in the Hi-Power situations as you would place it - but really in the crazy hack and slash players that would rather go out and hunt down demons than be involved in the plot This incident happened the other night : The Presence of Yves - angels and solemn staring at one of my PC's - "I'm Jack" pulling out both his guns - and firing them into the air... I hope you get my problem - Is there a way to convert the Hack and Slash player into something MORE of a Roleplayer? John "The Apocalypse" Kuan ______________________________________________________ @nyMail is Good Mail http://www.anymail.com.my ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 06:32:52 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> What happened? >From: Daedalus3D@aol.com >The Jews >believe that the Son/the Messiah is still to come, so it fits into their >belief system. Nice post. I'm just clarifying here. The Jewish Messiah will be _human_, no more and no less. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:40:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes On Tue, 2 May 2000, John The Apocalypse Kuan wrote: > This incident happened the other night : > > The Presence of Yves - angels and solemn staring at one of my PC's - > "I'm Jack" pulling out both his guns - and firing them into the air... > > I hope you get my problem - > > Is there a way to convert the Hack and Slash player into something MORE > of a Roleplayer? There's no guaranteed way to do it. One method would be to make the demon vital to the plot - killing him wrecks the PCs ability to prevent the schemes of Hell (and whapping what I presume to be a Malakite munchkin with dissonance...). Back this up with no XP rewards for failure, and the public censure and eventual punishment of the angel for repeatedly failing at vital missions, and you've got a (theoretically) good way to do it. Of course, in the situation you described above, I'd have had Yves strip him of his Firearms skill and give him back the points in an Etiquette skill, as a lesson in humility (something he obviously needs to fulfil his Destiny). Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:50:14 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> What happened? At 8:16 AM -0400 5/2/00, Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: >First off, let me apologize to Eric (aka Whistling in the Dark). My >criticism of "following canon" wasn't intended to be a criticism of "having >canon." I do enjoy reading supplements a great deal, because many of the >ideas inspire me with campaign nuances that I wouldn't have thought of >otherwise. My comments were probably, as you said, part of a knee-jerk >reaction to "following canon." I will try to refrain from that in the future. And I'll try to refrain from overreaction and sarcasm. Well, from overreaction. Sarcasm is hardwired into my skull. >Issues like faith and the >nature of God can't be spelled out in a supplement. If they ever are, it's >time for me to stop playing IN. You and me both -- that was what turned me off of your campaign description originally. It sounded like there were too many questions answered, too little issues of faith to look at. Your elaboration made it sound far more interesting -- mythic without being prosaic -- than I had assumed. Which points out the problems of assumption, neh? >- First off, though the Son sounds very Christian, he's not. The Jews >believe that the Son/the Messiah is still to come, so it fits into their >belief system. Christians believe that the Son already took on corporeal >form in the person of Jesus of Nazareth (something that causes a bit of >controversy in Heaven, Yves and Gabriel didn't tell the other archangels >about their starting of Christianity until Jesus was dead and it was >impossible to identify whether he was the corporeal vessel of the Son). This is likely the crux of the Belief question in your campaign. OOC, is the Son still extant/available as an Angel? Or is he in the Higher Heavens? Or elsewhere? Or is it a matter of some debate? > >If you read all the way down to this point, you have my congratulations and >sympathy. Reading I can do. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:05:28 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books >Ian, on Steve: It has been very gently pointed out to me that I misattributed Eric's comments to Ian instead. I apologize to both gentlemen, and plead temporary idiocy. (Some would question the "temporary" modifier there, but we needn't get into that now. ;-) ) - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 10:21:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Christian Mods Yesterday, I offered to re-post my own ideas on modifying In Nomine for a more Christian-specific flavor. Several people have since said Yes, so here it is. Please note that you can get a similar but different -- and more detailed -- version, with higher production values, in the Games Masters Guide, along with how to do Jewish and Moslem IN, and a detailed discussion of how different kinds of religion work in the game, applicable to generic IN or IN with any given denominational flavor. Earl - Shape Up the Archangels - I'd reduce the amount of squabbling in Heaven, and radically reduce the sheer enmity. None of this business of Michael called Dominic the "hyena of Heaven," etc. I'd even make Dominic Archangel of Justice. Now, there's a lot of fun to be had from having contrasting Archangels or choirs get on each other's astral nerves or try each other's patience, yea even unto celestial shouting matches, so I'd allow those, but they *are* all the original Good Guys, and they should all know that about each other. - Falling and Redeeming - Christian tradition is solidly in favor of a totally final fate or doom, contrary to the canon IN idea of any angel being in danger of falling or any demon having the hope of redeeming. But there is a lot of drama to the idea of celestial characters changing state that way. So I propose a more elaborate system. Old system: Unfallen - Outcast/Renegade - Fallen New system: Blessed - Unfallen - Outcast/Renegade - Fallen - Damned The two new states, Blessed and Damned, are final and irrevocable. If you reach either of those states, you have, in effect, *used* *up* your free will and are eternally fixed in that condition. Naturally, most PCs will not start the game Blessed or Damned. (Except maybe Malakim.) ALL Archangels are Blessed. ALL Demon Princes are Damned. The only exceptions might be Janus, Valefor, and Lilith. Typically, human souls are Blessed or Damned when they die. However, reincarnation or shunting off to the Marches is an option in more softcore Christian games. Simple dissipation on death is unlikely unless the person was, ah, Damned unlucky. - Immortality - The immortality of the soul is a very firm Christian tradition. I would say only the Damned can soul-die. Everyone else just goes into Trauma as in the canonical version. If the canon would have had you soul-dead, you go into Trauma so lengthy that you'd better start a new character. This means, by the way, that Remnants are recoverable unless they are Remnants of someone Damned. They are, in effect, in walking, corporeal Trauma. - Other Religions - Obviously, if Christianity is true, or the truest of the available religions, the others are not as true, or simply false. How much this intrudes on play is a political variable the GM must tune carefully. At the hardcore end of the spectrum, if angels come in answer to prayers, they only come in answer to Christian prayers. Soldiers of God are almost always Christians. Some Soliders (of other religions) may *think* they are Soldiers of God but are really dupes of Hell. At the softcore end of the spectrum, Heaven gives everyone's prayers an equal hearing, regardless of creed, and is more equal-opportunity about Soliders of God. At the *really* softcore end, the angels and demons themselves aren't sure which religion is true, except for a very few, like Gabriel, who have been involved directly. I have a hard time imagining a Christian-specifc game in which Gabriel really started Islam, unless she was the vicitm of an infernal deception, which might be what drove her crazy. In the middle, Christians and Christian Soldiers would have only a few advantages, such as an enhanced ability to exorcise. In any Christian game, it is apporpriate for celestials to lean heavier on Christians, tempting them harder or demanding more moral effort of them. - Catholic Mods - Here are some further modifications for a Catholic-specific game. - Saints - All Christians believe in saints -- all Christians feel they are or hope to BE saints -- but Catholicism has a large and specific body of learning about them, and encourages commerce between them and the faithful still on Earth. A Catholic campaign could have Saints who are of the same power-rank as Archangels, a new type of Superior. (It could likewise have Arch Undead as infernal counterparts.) There is, perhaps, a College of Saints in parallel with the Seraphim Council, or perhaps there are Saints on the Council. Such saintly Superiors could have lesser saints and angels as PC servitors. The premiere example of such a Superior would be the Blessed Virgin Mary herself, a sort of Heavenly counterpoint to Lilith. - Purgatory - In addition to the realms already in the game, we add Purgatory. The human souls in Purgatory are already Blessed, but they are cleansing themselves, refining their characters to make themselves suitable for Heaven. Dante has a detailed and beautiful description of Purgatory, but if you don't like it, you can make your own, of course. You could even make it look like Hell, but with a vastly different attitude. The people there, both human and celestial, are essentially optimistic. The place may be just as painful as Hell, but you are there to get better, and you will, and you will get out. It's like a school, or a hospital. In game terms, some souls may work off part of their purgation by coming back into the Corporeal realm to do good deeds or undo the bad things they did in life. This opens the possibilities of "saints" who are less saintly and more mundane than full, graduated Saints, and of ghost stories about expiational hauntings. - Sacraments - Being baptized, or being in a state of grace after confession, could offer some degree of protection against infernals or ethereals. The Host might ward off infernals or inimical ethereals, as in many old tales. - Church Organization - The canon writeup on Soldiers of God already includes a division working out of the Vatican. Such things could be multiplied, and whole new Black Ops divisions of the Church could be imagined up, to interface with the IN celestials. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:22:02 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books The Other David, replying to me: >> Given that we *do* want to have the IN core >> book available, and we *couldn't* do a new edition under the circumstances, >> a reprint is the only viable option. > >I wouldn;t say it is the *only* viable option. The option I would have >prefered is a small reprint order now, with a plan for a 2nd ed Real Soon >Now, with the given timing constraints. I don't know what size the reprint will be, and I wasn't here when the decision was made, so I don't want to speculate on the reasoning beyond what I've already said. (Which sounds like a cop-out, but it isn't; I'd rather clam up than mislead y'all.) >That would cost more, but would >have been the best choice IMO. *shrug* The problem with "that would have cost more" is that you're talking about a non-trivial expenditure. SJG is a successful company, but it doesn't have money to throw around. Believe me, I've been hearing for the last two-plus weeks about how tight the budgets are (usually in connection with advertising, but I can't imagine the other divisions aren't the same). Certain other, larger companies may have the margins to say "This will be a little more expensive for us, but we'll reap the benefits in the long run." We really don't. (The other thing to consider is that, if we reprinted the rules at the same time we sent IN 2/e to playtest, word would get out VERY quickly, and the reprint of IN 1/e wouldn't sell that well . . . I'd venture to say, at all.) - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:30:51 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books Sean wrote: > THEREFORE it is my belief that if the choice is between better product >or something on the shelves more quickly in the case of a game, a better >product would be a good choice. I'm sorry, but no. SJG knows that, if we let the core IN rules go out of print for too long, people are going to drift to other games, and new players won't pick up any of the IN books at all. Your analogy is flawed, because there isn't a line of Diablo products relying on the core game being in print (as well as the objection you yourself raised, that having Diablo II doesn't make Diablo pointless). If gamers can't buy the IN core rules, they aren't going to pick up the IN supplements either. It's not like GURPS, where the worldbooks are universally applicable (with a little work) to any game system. IN books are pretty specific to the setting. You're thinking just of the one product, the core rules. SJG is thinking of the entire line, and looking at what will promote and maintain sales of *all* the IN products. - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:46:10 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Maurice Lane wrote: > I may be overly optimistic, > but I'm pretty sure that the sales will be going up on > this stuff eventually. I think you are overly optimistic. Does anyone know of ANY RPG that eventually became a hit despite not selling well for its first 3 years? In Nomine had an excellent chance to become a major contender. There was considerable buzz and excitement about it in the years(!) leading up to its release, and it got a lot of commentary and reviews immediately after its release. SJG's marketing failed to sustain that buzz. Mediocre releases and The Long Night of No Line Editor probably helped stake IN, but it was already weakening as a line because it just wasn't being pushed as heavily as it should have been. There are other factors involved, some of which I'm just not going to comment on, but much as *I* love In Nomine personally, and will continue to write for it as long as SJG is still publishing it, I think it's lost any chance to be more than a tiny niche market. I'd love to be proven wrong, but while this list is full of stories of hardcore fans who bought the main book and were so captivated that they immediately went out and bought all the supplements, look at the gaming community at large and what they say on newsgroups, lists, forums, and in person. In Nomine generally elicits a yawn. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 10:36:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Genealogy Liam Astley wrote: > and do angels look up to their superiors as not just "the boss" > but also "mum"? I think it varies a LOT from one Superior to another, far more than among humans. At one extreme, you have Novalis, who is very likely "mum" to all her creations. At the other extreme, you have, say, Jean, who might relate to his creations as fine pieces of his craftsmanship, or of course Dominic, whom it is hard to see as at all parental. In the middle, I rather like the ideas put forward on this thread that Superiors and servitors are more like family if the Superior created the servitor from some of their own Forces. Also, you get one kind of relationship if the Superior created a nine-force angel all at once, or if they created a reliever that they turned over to someone else to rear, or if they created a reliever that they then reared themselves. Finally, we know there's a sliding scale of humanity among celestials. The closer to Mercurian you get on both sides, the more human relationships presumably get. So, a Seraph created by Dominic, as a full-fledged angel, out of raw Symphonic Forces, is probably not at all "Daddy/Mommy's little cuddle-worm." On the other hand, a Mercurian fledged from a reliever that Eli created from his own Forces and then raised personally, probably DOES call him "Dad." The same would apply in Hell, only of course the relationships would all be massively disfunctional and abusive. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 10:38:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Heresy, the Symphony, and the Globe Liam Astley wrote: > isn't taoism one of the religions that feeds essence to heaven, > rather than producing ethereals? Yes, and there are Taoists among the angels, according to the GMG, which Dominic doesn't like, but can't rule heretical. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:50:12 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books Sean McCarthy wrote: > Why can't I rant about how I think things should be done? Really, why? No reason. Why can't I retort that your rant is misdirected and ignorant? > And you didn't even attack my arguement. Just me. Actually, I agreed with you up to a certain point. That point being where you declared, in effect, "I'm Right and You're Not if you disagree with me!" - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 10:49:17 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Basically, from what few numbers I've seen and what little theory > I've evolved (which may be entirely wrong!), if the main book > goes OOP for too long (for whatever value of too long is, and > I feel it is probably short)... The rest of the books' sales will > nosedive. Amen. Also, when there are no supplements, the main book's sales dip as well. Those of you who play Amber know alllll about this. (I don't think Wuj's head should be on a stick... I just think he should've sold the game to Guardians of Order... who have proven they can produce more than one book a decade.) Distributors and retailers are _extremely_ sensitive to when a main book goes OOP. They have to be to survive in the tighter game market. It can never go OOP for any major length of time without them bailing en masse. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:47:10 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) The Other David: >GURPS >markets to every player having a copy of whatever Sourcebook the campaign >is being run in. I don't think that's true at all. GURPS markets to every player having a copy of the Basic Set (plus, perhaps, one or both Compendia). I don't think there's a need for every player in an Egyptian game to have a copy of GURPS Egypt. Sure, it'd be *nice*, but it's by no means a requirement. >Imagine WoTC >trying to tell every AD&D player that they had to buy every Module, >Monsterous Compendium, Sourcebook, whatever for a certain campaign setting >in order to play it. No-matter if they were player or DM. TSR tried to do that, and it drove them under. WotC is following a saner marketing scheme...as is SJG, with both GURPS and IN. Believe it or not, we *do* think about these things when we're setting print run sizes. >Face it, WW really did change the way a lot of people viewed the manner in >which a game needed to be supported. Remember Vampire? A supplement came out >every month for Pete's sake for the first year, and they weren't always $20 >dollar book either. And for the most part they were well written, mostly >well laid out, had great art that was consistant, and they never forget who >thier audience was. Yes, but Vampire at the time was competing with TSR more than SJG, and TSR was doing essentially the same thing--one product a month for its main lines. It drove TSR bankrupt. (That and underpricing their stuff.) The other thing to realize is, WW had *one* game line at the time, so of course they could release one thing a month for that sole line. SJG has two main lines and lots of independent products. >That's what consumers want... If the they have to buy another copy then they >don't feel to bad because they only spent $10-$15 and when the inevitable >reprint comes it doesn't hurt. I'm sorry, but that's NOT what the research in the industry indicates. From my own reading of mailing lists and Usenet, people who already own material tend to avoid reprints unless there's substantial new material in them, and they resent new editions of stuff that they've just recently bought. - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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