From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 5 15:41:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17351 for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 15:41:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA00432 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 May 2000 15:38:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:38:10 -0500 Message-Id: <200005052038.PAA00432@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1612 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1612 In this digest: Re: IN> Core Book reprint question Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Re: IN> Imagination wanted. Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Re: Fixing humans Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy IN> I have no mouth and I must share a URL Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Core Book reprint question Re: IN> Imagination wanted. Re: IN> I have no mouth and I must share a URL Re: IN> Core Book reprint question Re: IN> Imagination wanted. IN> New supplements Re: IN> New supplements Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Re: Fixing humans Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) IN> What is successful? IN> Re: heavenly politics Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> What is successful? Re: IN> What is successful? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:31:12 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Core Book reprint question There's a deception factor. WW marketing has ingrained into your average gamer that a hardcover is a second edition. I know I got this question a lot when the original IN hardcovers came out. "Second edition? But the game hasn't been out that long!" Just a thought. You might want to save something like that for a major push... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 13:36:10 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Personally, I don't see Comedy as an angelic Word. Why? Most forms of comedy are at the expense of someone, not something angelic IMO. To me, this is why Dark Humor is so much more powerful a Word than most people think. The line "It's all in fun!" makes responding to something humorous that was damaging a whole lot more difficult in society. Now, perhaps I'd let "Gentle Irony" and "Puns" be angelic Words under Yves, but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. Sam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:37:39 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Sayeth Sam: > Personally, I don't see Comedy as an angelic Word. Why? Most forms of > comedy are at the expense of someone, not something angelic IMO. To me, this > is why Dark Humor is so much more powerful a Word than most people think. > The line "It's all in fun!" makes responding to something humorous that was > damaging a whole lot more difficult in society. > > Now, perhaps I'd let "Gentle Irony" and "Puns" be angelic Words under Yves, > but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. > One might argue that this proves how badly Heaven needs someone to take up this responsibility...you are convinced it cannot be a holy thing. Though, indeed, Laughter is more of fit...but comedy, used justly, would cause laughter. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:06:01 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes At 11:15 AM -0500 5/4/00, Prodigal wrote: >From: "Marc Bowden" > > > > ...and now I have this sick In Nomine/Reboot Alpha crossover in my > > brain. Somehow, I blame Prodigal for this. > >The subliminals are working! ;;;) We've done it before.... (My format? Malakite. To Rend and Defend...) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:07:59 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Imagination wanted. At 11:11 AM -0600 5/4/00, ben wrote: >I don't suppose I could encourage one of you more creative folks to write me >a Demon of Some Assembly Required? > >I've managed to slightly injure myself on a shelf last night, but this fits >nicely into a campaign killer I've thought up involving Uriel's return, a >lucid Gabriel, an abortive apocalypse and the demon (possibly a Kobalite) >suddenly pulling off the right trick to become the Demon of Flaws. I'll tackle it, if it can indeed be a Kobalite. And I expect Vapula will *hate* him.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:09:54 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy At 10:37 AM -0700 5/4/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: > > One might argue that this proves how badly Heaven needs someone to take >up this responsibility...you are convinced it cannot be a holy thing. >Though, indeed, Laughter is more of fit...but comedy, used justly, would >cause laughter. Agreed here. It's not an innately demonic Word. Though perhaps Humor would be the better Angelic Word, which would amuse Kobal to no end before he hunted down and killed the holder in an ironic, yet enjoyable way. (And there is *no* Demon of Comedy, I'd warrant.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 13:26:18 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Walter Milliken wrote: > They *are* cool, but they're also a bunch of pages you read once or twice, > and then aren't terribly useful after that. If they get people to play the game, they are more useful than anything else in the book. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:57:37 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 1:26 PM -0500 5/4/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: > > They *are* cool, but they're also a bunch of pages you read once or twice, > > and then aren't terribly useful after that. > > >If they get people to play the game, they are more useful than anything >else in the book. I've been avoiding saying anything about the vignettes this time out, because it was such an unproductive argument the last time. But, since it's come up again and not slipping back out, I'm going to restate my position and slink back into the corner on this. I honestly thing Bright Dream and Dark Dream, as written, do the game more of a disservice than a service. I think they could be easily modified to eliminate the problems with them, but as is they're flavor for a dish that the book doesn't give the recipe to play. In specific, Nicole's explicitly dissonant actions and borderline dissonant attitude should be resolved -- I see three simple ways of doing this: make her a different choir (one without prohibitions against violence, like an Ofanite); add something somewhere that highlights either the dissonant nature of her actions or the atypical nature of them (Gabriel commenting on dissonance and Nicole's lack of concern over it, or Tariel mentioning how weirdly she's been acting for a Mercurian when he's explaining what Mercurians and Cherubs are and how they're different); The dialogue and action should be edited to reflect more Mercurian actions (by far the trickiest to do without ruining the scene -- it would require a passive Song replacing the Song of Motion Nicole uses on the traitor, plus some more sympathy for her new servant). As written, the primary example of an Angel in In Nomine given to new players is one who would Fall very quickly, but that "preFallen" state is never alluded to. In fact, the opposite is reinforced often. Even Marcus seems to celebrate his ex-girlfriend with the 'tude (including that great "SMITE license plate" line). As I've stated in the past, I've had angry players who created Mercurians because of that example, then been mad because they incurred dissonance -- which is problematic for an example of a new game. I know there are quite a few who really love the vignettes and practically think it's sacrilege to consider changing them. In terms of the "flavortext" argument, I'm actively pro-flavor. But given how little would need to be done to put psycho-kitten Nicole into perspective, it seems crazy not to do it. If it can't or won't be done, I'd rather see the vignette distributed seperately (as Walter stated) or done away with entirely and something new be written in its place. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 15:09:29 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Re: Fixing humans neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: > > This way, a starting PC won't overwhelm mundane humans at ordinary > activities, but will have a wide selection of cool supernatural powers > at their command to distinguish them from humans. But they're Angels for crying out loud! Geezz I don't know about you guys but I'm aware that face to face with a being of divine (or for that matter infernal) nature I have no chance at all to beat them up and I don't think the average human should. They aren't super heros for crying out loud! If people want a low powered super hero game I recommend Brave New World. Yes that makes things unfair, but frankly it really doesn't matter. IN is _not_ designed to be a balanced game. Go read the Elohim of Wind attunment if you think IN was designed to be balanced. If people want to role-play humans let 'm go at it. (and It's not as if the CPG doesn't offer a multitude of bonuses and other stuff for humans. Trent Can I have the ranting rite? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 15:15:50 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > Personally, I don't see Comedy as an angelic Word. Why? Most forms of > comedy are at the expense of someone, not something angelic IMO. To me, this > is why Dark Humor is so much more powerful a Word than most people think. > The line "It's all in fun!" makes responding to something humorous that was > damaging a whole lot more difficult in society. > > Now, perhaps I'd let "Gentle Irony" and "Puns" be angelic Words under Yves, > but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. You shouldn't forget that Laughter is defiantly and angelic word (but then so is War and Fear) really It's all in how the word is emphasized. Politeness can be a demonic word just as easily as an angelic one, heck it might be even easier that way. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 16:28:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> I have no mouth and I must share a URL I know it's not In Nomine related, but it sure is gaming related: http://www.uic.edu/~tbrann1/mst3k/ I now return you to your previously scheduled flamewar. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.pave-france.org/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. Art is dead. All that is left is noise and attitude. - Montejon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 16:30:41 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy - --On Thu, May 4, 2000 3:15 PM -0500 Matt Trent wrote: > Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >> Personally, I don't see Comedy as an angelic Word. Why? Most >> forms of comedy are at the expense of someone, not something >> angelic IMO. To me, this is why Dark Humor is so much more >> powerful a Word than most people think. The line "It's all in >> fun!" makes responding to something humorous that was damaging a >> whole lot more difficult in society. >> >> Now, perhaps I'd let "Gentle Irony" and "Puns" be angelic Words >> under Yves, but they're the only ones I can think of off the top >> of my head. > > You shouldn't forget that Laughter is defiantly and angelic word > (but then so is War and Fear) really It's all in how the word is > emphasized. Politeness can be a demonic word just as easily as an > angelic one, heck it might be even easier that way. > The demonic form of the Word would be "Political Correctness". Marc. Just *thwap* Ow. Hey. Quit throwing things! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 13:34:49 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Core Book reprint question >From: "Sean McCarthy" >"Second edition? But the game hasn't been out that long!" > >Just a thought. You might want to save something like that for a major >push... Let's be realistic. This IS the major push. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 13:37:09 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Imagination wanted. >From: Whistling in the Dark >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >I'll tackle it, if it can indeed be a Kobalite. And I expect Vapula >will *hate* him.... > > But why? Large green machines of ultimate death and destruction don't assemble themelves, you know! (yet) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 16:45:53 -0400 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> I have no mouth and I must share a URL From: Emily Dresner > I know it's not In Nomine related, but it sure is gaming related: A wise old squirrel once said something that seems apropos here: Now *that's* comedy. Thanks for sharing this! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 18:38:06 -0500 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Core Book reprint question Little off topic but here goes, In case anyone is interested a friend of mine has an original Black(the Demonic) cover hardback IN book that he's looking to get rid of...email me privately if you are interested in getting it.(Don't know how much he wants for it yet...but I will be in contact with him about it) just thought some of ya might be interested. Ben Chism - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GATd--- s: a-->a?C++++>$UL++P+L++E W++N o+K++ w O-M-V- PS+++PE Y++PGP t 5+++X+R* tv++b++++DI+D+++G++e+h! r y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 19:47:00 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Imagination wanted. At 1:37 PM -0700 5/4/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Whistling in the Dark >>Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >> >>I'll tackle it, if it can indeed be a Kobalite. And I expect Vapula >>will *hate* him.... >> >> > >But why? Large green machines of ultimate death and destruction >don't assemble themelves, you know! (yet) > Oh, it's not the *concept,* but the *demon* who will be hated. He sees Vapula and all his works as pure fodder, after all, and those the demon touches don't exactly *praise* Technology during this process.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:05:49 +1000 From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> New supplements Well, there's a lot of talk about new supplements for IN, so I thought I'd put my 5 cents in. IN Hardcover: With the low $AUS at the moment, IN softcover books are selling for around $48 here at the moment (for comparison, Music CDs cost $30, a Big Mac is around $5), so I don't think many hardcovers would sell here (besides, I already have one). Ethereal Players Guide: I've bought every IN supplement so far, but I would have to think very hard about an EPG. The CPG was simply a rehash of rules that appeared in the revelations cycle and it would be hard to see why an EPG wouldn't be a rehash of "The Marches". (And if I see another article on how to run a mixed campaign I'll scream). IN players that are playing Ethereals would seem to be a small subset of the game, to me. What I would like to see: The Grigori - not a whole book, but say a quarter of one? "Official" optional fallen Malakim writeup IN History - write ups of Old Superiors (esp Uriel) How about "IN: Purity Crusade" (what's Latin for 'Purity Crusade'?) which focuses on the Purity Crusade (for all those EPG proponents out there), the Outcasting of the Grigori, and has some historical write ups of old superiors and maybe a few word bounds thrown in for good measure? SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 22:41:23 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> New supplements David Streeter wrote: > Ethereal Players Guide: I've bought every IN supplement so far, but I would > have to think very hard about an EPG. The CPG was simply a rehash of rules > that appeared in the revelations cycle Uh, hardly. It revised (extensively) a lot of rules that appeared in Night Music and the Marches, but most of the book was completely new material. > and it would be hard to see why an> EPG wouldn't be a rehash of "The Marches". It won't be. > "Official" optional fallen Malakim writeup Not likely, but here's the unofficial one that was originally written for FotM and *almost* became official: http://amadan.org/Innomine/DarkMalakim.htm > IN History - write ups of Old Superiors (esp Uriel) You'll find Raphael, Uriel and Genubath (none canonical yet, but I will certainly be a contender for writing the official versions when/if that happens) at http://amadan.org/Innomine/INsuperiors.html > and maybe a few word bounds thrown in for good measure? http://amadan.org/Innomine/INnpcs.html - -David (currently the Angel of Unprofitable Self-Promotion) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 22:52:55 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > > Now, perhaps I'd let "Gentle Irony" and "Puns" be angelic Words under Yves, > but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. Don't forget the big word that I would probably elevate to the status of Minor Superior (at least) in my campaign - Joy. Nice traditional and frequently seen hanging out at Novalis' Party. Nice and close to the whole Comedy/Laughter themes but far lager while still giving heaven that breath of fresh air* that it so desperately needs. Trent Ofanite of Doubt * Can you tell I have Windy tendencies? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:38:06 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy In a message dated 5/4/00 1:22:57 PM Central Daylight Time, in-sabre@annotations.com writes: << Agreed here. It's not an innately demonic Word. Though perhaps Humor would be the better Angelic Word, which would amuse Kobal to no end before he hunted down and killed the holder in an ironic, yet enjoyable way. (And there is *no* Demon of Comedy, I'd warrant.) >> I don't know. I forgot who said it but I once heard a saying. "If you want to tell people the truth, you'd better make it funny or they'll kill you." Comedy, in the form of satire, can make people aware of uncomfortable truths, in an easier-to-swallow form. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:45:33 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Fixing humans In a message dated 5/4/00 3:13:48 PM Central Daylight Time, mtrent@bigfoot.com writes: << Go read the Elohim of Wind attunment if you think IN was designed to be balanced. >> I actually kinda like that one. Elohite wants to really spook someone into doing something. Storm's a-brewin'. Elohit hides in shadows until the proper monent, then steps out.... "Good evening." KRAKABOOOOOOMMM!!!!!!!! (as the lightning flash frames his face.) :) Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 21:18:38 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) I'm just hoping that if there is new vignettes, they will still contain Marcus and maybe even Charlie. Every one of my players joined because they read Dark Dream and wanted to be as cool as Marcus. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF > > I wouldn't hold my breath on either of those, though it might wind up with > a new set of vignettes, as GURPS IN did. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 05:11:25 -0500 From: Jonathan B Lotzer Subject: IN> What is successful? I was thinking about the stream of conversation about whether In Nomine is a dead game, or whether there was actually hope of it becoming a successful line. Well, I just remembered something that a professor said that may have special meaning: many small businesses (and not so small ones) consider themselves successful if they don't have to fire people. Where do people consider the success mark of In Nomine? Is it making enough so that each and every book brings in more than it cost? Is it making the top 10 selling list every single month? Is it making a profit? If so, how much of a profit? Is success the players having an item out every few months..three or four releases a year? The gaming industry is increasingly becoming a saturated market. Go to your local gaming store and look at all the stock that they have. How many different games do they have? How many are still in production? I have a local store that is known in the area for being the place to go if you want to find something out of publish. It offers an excellent variety of games that /didn't/ make it for one reason or another. What made companies decide to drop some lines and not others? Also, are we talking about the possible discontinuation of IN (it doesn't sound like it) or are we talking about 'well, it isn't doing as well as we hoped, but we will continue to support the line'? Some serious questions..how does SJG, the developers of IN and the players consider success? Jonathan B Lotzer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:37:55 +0100 From: "Stuart Park" Subject: IN> Re: heavenly politics Hi, IMG Personally I've always viewed both heaven and hell operated much the same way. Each AA/ DP operates there own 'view' of how it should operate, so Vapula/ Jean both have the more modern, de-centralised organisational structures, whereas Laurence is more likely to operate a strict hierarchy. Essentially I find a utopian/ dystopian society that are similar to the overal goals of a superior. The type of organisation then affects the way operatives relate with each other, and their superior. There are couple of decent utopian readers kicking about that make this prety easy. The actual inter-relations I base on the cabinet structure in Britain, in Heaven the concept of 'first among equals' and collective responsibilty hold. Essentially all superiors have an 'equal' say, and as a result of alliances etc effectively cancel each other out. Also since everyone has the same general goal, they all sink or swim togehter and so pragmatically are willing to work together. The DP'd on the other hand are all scheming to remove each other, and are willing to sabotage, and manipulate alternatives, to the extent that a DP may have less to fear from his opposite number (after all hes not after your job), than the 'colleagues' in hell. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 07:44:47 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy - --On Thu, May 4, 2000 10:52 PM -0500 Matt Trent wrote: > Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >> >> Now, perhaps I'd let "Gentle Irony" and "Puns" be angelic Words >> under Yves, but they're the only ones I can think of off the top >> of my head. > > Don't forget the big word that I would probably elevate to the > status of Minor Superior (at least) in my campaign - Joy. Nice > traditional and frequently seen hanging out at Novalis' Party. Nice > and close to the whole Comedy/Laughter themes but far lager while > still giving heaven that breath of fresh air* that it so > desperately needs. > > Trent Ofanite of Doubt > * Can you tell I have Windy tendencies? o/~ Everyone knows it's Windy... o/~ Marc. Just Marc. Couldn't carry a tune if it had a handle. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:05:52 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 14:26 -0400 5/4/00, David Edelstein wrote: [re Bright/Dark Dream vignettes] >If they get people to play the game, they are more useful than anything >else in the book. No argument -- the question is whether they'd be more effective at doing that as a giveaway pamphlet. Nor do I want to cut vignettes entirely in the book, but those two *do* take up a lot of space. Could the same amount of enticement into the game be achieved without burning all those pages in the main book? At this point in the game's life cycle, it seems to me that a separate advertising flyer with those (or similar) vignettes might be more effective than just having them in the book. How many people pick up a game that's been on the shelves for a couple years, just to look at it? Vs. how many people will take a free promo item? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:47:57 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> What is successful? At 6:11 -0400 5/5/00, Jonathan B Lotzer wrote: > Where do people consider the >success mark of In Nomine? Is it making enough so that each and every book >brings in more than it cost? That's the first part -- the second is how *quickly* it recoups its costs. Cash flow is critical in most small businesses, like virtually all gaming companies. A game that sells slowly but steadily is a marginal product, as far as I can tell, unless it's already recouped its costs. If it sells slowly out of the starting gate, it may be hard to get the *next* product out, if the company is low on reserves. > Is it making the top 10 selling list every single >month? That's generally the indication of a *really* successful product in the game business, as far as I can tell. A lot of games that are viable don't make the top-10 list. Actually, the top-10 list of *products* is nearly always going to be new releases. Product *lines* are a different matter. > Is it making a profit? If so, how much of a profit? Is success the >players having an item out every few months..three or four releases a year? Judging from what I've seen, I'd say the really successful games generally release something every month to two months; the release schedule can be longer if the company has other lines that are doing well, but anything more than every 3-4 months is too likely to let interest die down. There are exceptions to that -- a number of games have "cult" status, where they can go long periods of time without new releases, and still survive. But I don't think any of those are supporting full-time companies. > The >gaming industry is increasingly becoming a saturated market. I'm not sure this is any more true now than it was 10 years ago. It's always been diverse, with a lot of companies coming a going. The past few years were pretty lean, and shook the industry up a lot, but I don't think that's so much market saturation as factors affecting the size of the whole market. > What made companies decide to drop some lines and not >others? Most game companies only publish a single game line, actually. A lot of them try to branch out, but nearly always fail. I'm not sure why, other than the fact that the market is rather fickle. More often than not, successful new games come from new companies. But the success ratio isn't high -- walk the dealer's room at GenCon sometime. There are a *lot* of would-be game companies there; most of them are essentially hobby operations. And there are a substantially different set of them every year or two. > Also, are we talking about the possible discontinuation of IN (it >doesn't sound like it) or are we talking about 'well, it isn't doing as well as >we hoped, but we will continue to support the line'? I suspect it's somewhere in between -- if SJGames had a bad period, I wouldn't be surprised to see IN dropped, at least for a while. Fortunately, their other lines are doing fairly well at the moment, as I understand it. But a line that's not at least carrying its weight will die, eventually. One major question is whether the release of GURPS In Nomine will bring in a new group of players (and thus buyers for the IN supplements). We'll have to wait and see. > Some serious >questions..how does SJG, the developers of IN and the players consider success? I can't speak authoritatively about SJGames, but as a long-time watcher of the company, I'd have to guess that a successful product by their standards is one that sells about 2/3 of its print run in the first year, and the entire run in 2-3 years. (These are the ones they tend to reprint and/or revise.) A *wildly* successful product is one where the print run sells out in a few months, or succeeds in selling 2/3 of a really big print run in a year. (They don't get many of those.) Print runs seem to range from a few thousand up to a few tens of thousands (if they expect a big demand and get a lot of preorders). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:37:24 CST From: "Justin Buhler" Subject: Re: IN> What is successful? I consider success as being the number of people I meet and introduce the game to who go out and get it for themselves, so far 4 out of 6 of my Players has purchased the main phb and at least one other book for 2 of the 4. This I measure as being a sucess. Then again, I use WebRPG for my gaming needs, meaning one person just can't purchase the book and pass it around for all to read. That I think is where Gaming Companies should be targetting, Web Forum Games, as there you can do what I did. Which was create a small folder for chr creation and game concept so that PCs can make chrs. Then, I emailed them info on their PCs (Choir/Band and Superior). Then we played and I introduced to them to the game, soon enough, all but two (The currently new entries) have all bought the book. In conclusion and summarization I measure success as being the amount of people you manage to recruit to the game (And even better if they buy some materials [ie. main phb, etc.]). ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1612 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.