From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 10 07:11:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21594 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 07:11:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id HAA23818 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 07:10:26 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:10:26 -0500 Message-Id: <200005101210.HAA23818@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1618 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1618 In this digest: Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: IN> A friendly Hello, and various things of note... Re: IN> A friendly Hello, and various things of note... Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote IN> A bit of something in celestial blue... Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: IN> A friendly Hello, and various things of note... Re: IN> A bit of something in celestial blue... Re: IN> A friendly Hello, and various things of note... Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) Re: IN> A bit of something in celestial blue... RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote IN> Re:art work Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 May 2000 22:52:58 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) all this stuff about Novalis has me curious about the revision. i tried accessing the listed url, but nothing came up. would someone mind sending me the webpage or forwarding me the text directly, please? i'd love to see something that resonantes so powerfully that so many have high praise for it (i'm also a huge Dark Victory fan). -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 16:32:40 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Hrm. I wasn't especially thrilled with the writeup either, but for different reasons. Having read your (that is to say, Maurice's) statement that this was not fun to write, and not bright, I found the actual writeup to be relatively tame (to chip in with David, the red hair + scar thing also seemed to ring a bit 1980s fantasy art, although Novalis undoutedly wears more clothes). I was going in there expecting a borderline falling/putting Gabriel to shame sociopath, and instead I found one of the more sensible Malakim I've ever seen. Which is all perfectly reasonable, and the complaints come down to my expectations rather than what was actually there. And I would complain about unoriginality if she was made too much like Gabriel (and it would've worked counter to Novalis' word as well, if it comes to that). Other than that, I will say that yes, it was artistically valid (that is to say, I got through it with no trouble whatsoever), although given to sentiment at times. And I was chuckling over Jean's quote/counterquote. Cheers, Ryan "Alcohol doesn't help one forget, but it does make remembering a hell of a lot easier" -Margaret Weis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:23:11 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) At 5:25 PM -0500 5/9/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Now, personally I'm just not highly evolved enough to buy Novalis' >philosophy. I'm more of a Dominican or a Michaelite. But the fact that >I'm not personally capable of turning the other cheek or unlimited >forgiveness doesn't mean I think it should be dismissed as unviable. >I've always thought that Novalis is really one of the most Christian of >Archangels, even if she doesn't explicitly embrace that religion. The >degeneration of Novalis into a raped Malakite is much like the >degeneration of Christianity into "Praise God and pass the ammo!" >Novalis represents a much deeper message than that, and I would hope >that even if one doesn't accept the Flowers philosophy, it would deserve >better treatment than to get shat on like this. I agree to a certain degree. But I could accept the premise because... well, I'm willing to accept opening assumptions in order to move on. Said premise was "Novalis becomes a Malakite," and the route to getting there was kind of irrelevant to me, so long as it made contextual sense (even if, as David points out, it was highly cliched). This also presumes that "Novalis's ideals fail, ultimately" is the core of that premise. I suppose the antithesis of this would be the Dark Victory Novalis, who became Discordant but continued to forgive her attackers, sobbing, as they tore Force after Force from her until Lucifer rescued her. With me, the post-event execution is the key to my opinion of the Malakite Archangel of Flowers, and my opinion is kind of mixed. And in that opinion, I find myself both agreeing with David, yet thinking certain elements had merit. The pros I liked were the Flowers Schism. I *like* that a good percentage of Novalis's followers refuse to either go to a new Superior *or* follow the new Novalite philosophy, instead following the Traditional path. That came across as realistic *and* idealistic to me, and that's a difficult trick. I also like Dominic's reaction. It rang very true -- and it and several other elements of the Archangels' reactions kind of reinforces the theme of something *lost.* Something vital to the side of the Angels. It's been mentioned that the forces of Heaven are coming together and unifying, which could be bad for Hell. At the same time, with such a loss to the Peace Faction (analogous to the whole Faction becoming a Remnant, more or less) could mean Heaven loses the War in the end. Yes, they might beat the demons, but to do it they had to lose the things that *made* them Heaven, starting with David, carried through Raphael and ending with Novalis. Community turned to Tough Love. Knowledge died. Flowers turned to Thorns. The rest of the Superior opinions, though, is really what ruins the premise for me. Of all of them, only David accepts what has happened as "Novalis coming around." All the rest, War Faction or Peace Faction, go beyond anger and into mourning. "We have lost what Novalis was, and never knew how valuable that was" is reinforced over and over again. Laurence -- who refuses to even acknowledge Novalis in the status quo, is swearing himself to personally avenging her. Michael bemoans her fate. Jean consoles himself with objectivity but even Novalis can "see the pain in his eyes." That's just not realistic to me -- were I writing this up, Laurence might indeed hate Leviathen for what he's done, but he'd also be jubulent that this thorn in his side is *finally* rolling up her sleeves and doing what needs to be done. Michael's Word and worldview is vindicated by Novalis turning Dark -- yet he more mourns her loss of innocence than War's necessity. And Janus -- he opens with "some changes aren't good," and that's *alien* to how I see Janus. Janus might empathize with the pain she's gone through, but in the end he'd sweep the past away and move forward to the future. I think more diversity in reaction would strengthen the writeup considerably. *Especially* if it isolated Dominic's opinion further. Dominic would be the next logical building block in the evolution of this thought experiment, that way. Judgement calls out for an eye for an eye, a Demon Prince for an Archangel. And yet, what has truly been lost is a viewpoint that made the Seraphim Council more centrist, that added diversity, that held up its ideals in the heart of horror and pain. A vignette of Dominic "taking a walk" through Heaven and considering, weighing the losses and what it's meant to him -- especially since Novalis *didn't* Fall and therefore he can't dismiss her -- would be interesting. Dominic having his *own* position beginning to moderate, Judgement becoming more centered on Fairness and Common Sense than retribution, would be both unexpected and ironic, and could lead to Yet Another Heretical Writeup. So, put me down as "mixed," as I said above. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 18:39:52 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> A friendly Hello, and various things of note... At 2:03 PM -0400 05/09/00, Philip J. Moyer wrote: >And finally, some of my dabblings into In Nomine-themed artwork can be >found at: > >http://www.jurai.net/~pmoyer/PMArt-in.html Pretty-pretty. . . Now, who'se souls can I sell to get that good at art? *heh-heh-heh* If you want, I can show you my Ofanite (done in P-Shop, a Tool of the Devil if you ask me! *Thanks go out to those of you who HAVE reponded positively*) and the Game version of Betharan(tm). . . Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:52:56 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> A friendly Hello, and various things of note... At 6:39 PM -0500 5/9/00, Tafka J. wrote: >At 2:03 PM -0400 05/09/00, Philip J. Moyer wrote: > >And finally, some of my dabblings into In Nomine-themed artwork can be > >found at: > > > >http://www.jurai.net/~pmoyer/PMArt-in.html > > Pretty-pretty. . . Now, who'se souls can I sell to get that good at >art? *heh-heh-heh* I've long been a fan of Philip's art, but one of the best pieces in his total lexicon *has* to be the Fiat Justina movie poster. Wow. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 18:03:11 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) I could not find this Novalis writeup either, and somehow deleted the link. Help! Please! I need to find the Oops Cycle! Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:30:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) At 5:25 PM -0500 5/9/00, David Edelstein wrote: >If Novalis was true to her Word, and was to be depicted as a TRULY >strong character, she wouldn't change a bit. She'd be traumatized, >certainly, but she wouldn't abandon everything she'd stood for for >millenia. Hmmmmm.... Clearly the Malakite nature is actually... Discord. You see, when something happens that a celestial cannot cope with, their nature changes, no? Dissonance gets bound into Discord if the angel doesn't want to Fall... If something happens that would otherwise cause the angel to go into a dissonance-feedback loop, the Malakite Discord lets them break out of it... This is, in essence, the reverse of the Discords which are added to dissonance rolls -- instead, the level _subtrracts_ or something. (What, you think I'm goint to work out mechanics for somthing this loony?) So... Uriel went Malakite because he couldn't cope with the Purity of the Symphony being trashed by Lucifer. He was going, "THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENIN--oh crap, fine, I'll _make_ it not be happening in blood and anger, so there." David went Malakite because he couldn't figure out any other way to remove the devotion to the group of angels -- including the group that was currently trying to dance hornpipes all over everyone else. Elohim probably did the, "Objectivity be screwed, I'm gonna do something about this." Kyriotates... Drat, can't think of anything for them. Ofanim neither. Mercurians are easy -- they didn't know they had an outlet for demons before (and it's not clear if the rebel angels were demons yet then anyway). In that model, you'd get a MalaNovalis who had the choice between "Just Stop Caring" and "Kick Butt" and chose to take the Discord... My, that could be an interesting take on it. (See, that's why they can't Fall -- they've got levels of Malakite Discord up the wazoo.) That said, the thing that I found somewhat... eh, whatever, about the writeup was that not a one of the warrior Archangels said, "Damn shame ya had to learn it the hard way, kid, but welcome to the side of right-thinking red-blooded kicking butt. Here's your membership card and uzi." The outpouring of... protective pity, for me, weakened the impact of the change -- like everyone wanted to make her into the poor little thing, when she'd clearly gone through the test of fire and come out a blackwing -- and everyone knows blackwings take care of themselves. (What kind of got to me was the notion that Andre might have been helping her -- _that_ was an interesting dynamic, y'see.) Anyeay, it's _sooooo_ YMMV, and soooooo out of canon, I go me merry way... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:21:56 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote David >If written tradition shows Lilith being regarded as a demoness thousands >of years ago, and her image changing to "Mother Goddess/Bride of Adam" >only in later centuries, I think it's unlikely that oral tradition was >different. Lilith, Mother Goddess?? No way. Most good Catholics know that Mary is the Mother Goddess. God does not listen, forgiveness and intercession comes from praying to Mary, saying Hail Mary's and all that sort of stuff. Is it not odd to you that Mary is so frequently refered to in Catholocism as the mother of God? And of course those of us in the know are fully aware that Mary is in reality Brighid. Ashley Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:26:41 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote >Medieval Jewish mythology, IIRC. Ok, I apoligise. In Nomine is a game, I should not have brought up theology. In Nomine bears about as much resemblance to the real thoelogy of the Judeo/Christian myth as a dog does to a cat. Both have fur, both have teeth, but they are not the same. Perhaps we all need to lighten up and regard In Nomine as a game rather than reality. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 17:52:51 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) ben wrote: > > I could not find this Novalis writeup either, and somehow deleted the link. > > Help! Please! I need to find the Oops Cycle! I had the same problem (got a nice lil message telling me the database could not be found or some such) and got around it by running a search for novalis within the site. It's working normally for me now in any case... The address (if Moe doesn't mind me reposting it, which I'm sure he doesn't ^_^) is: http://www.familyshoebox.com/family/Oops Cheers, Ryan "Solutions probably would not be found in the bottom of a whisky glass, but it couldn't hurt to go looking." -Margaret Weis again ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 19:29:50 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Omentide wrote: > Is it not odd to you that Mary is so frequently refered to in Catholocism> as the mother of God? Nope. Nothing about religion is odd to me. Or everything is. Interpret that as you will. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:48:58 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Ashley wrote: > Is it not odd to you that Mary is so frequently refered to in Catholocism > as the mother of God? Excuse me if this sounds sarcastic, but you are aware of who Jesus was, according to Catholic tradition? The son of God who also was God? Mary was his mother, hence 'Mother of God'. Do you seriously find this odd, or are you genuinely ignorant of Catholic beliefs and thought that they had raised a random woman to be above God and be accepted as his mother? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 19:33:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Omentide wrote: > Ok, I apoligise. In Nomine is a game, I should not have brought up > theology. Why not? Theology makes In Nomine more interesting. > In Nomine bears about as much resemblance to the real thoelogy > of the Judeo/Christian myth as a dog does to a cat. Both have fur, both > have teeth, but they are not the same. Not in dispute. What is in dispute is the historical and mythological foundations of Lilith, which some people might want to apply to In Nomine. > Perhaps we all need to lighten up and regard In Nomine as a game rather > than reality. Has _anyone_ been regarding In Nomine as reality? If so, they should probably get professional help. I don't know who you're talking to, here. I sense an attempt to divert attention from inaccurate statements you made. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 18:11:07 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Said David: > Has _anyone_ been regarding In Nomine as reality? If so, they should > probably get professional help. I think I might have been guilty of this during the whole reprint discussion. And I'd like to say I do feel somewhat silly about that now. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:49:32 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote >Has _anyone_ been regarding In Nomine as reality? If so, they should >probably get professional help. Wait a sec... are you saying that I'm *not* the "Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs"? Huh. I wonder who that guy who said he was Kronos really is... :) (I'm so frickin' witty, aren't I? I should, like, go work for Kobal, or sumptin'.) - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of Kronos - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:19:14 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > > In Nomine bears about as much resemblance to the real thoelogy > > of the Judeo/Christian myth as a dog does to a cat. Both have fur, both > > have teeth, but they are not the same. > Not in dispute. What is in dispute is the historical and mythological > foundations of Lilith, which some people might want to apply to In > Nomine. Yes, but one of the problems is that the vast majority of scholarship in the past few centuries has been coming out of a Christian-biased mindset. It has only been in the past 30 or 40 years that the concept of a possible earlier matrifocal culture *existing* in parts of what has become the Western world has become slightly acceptable. Historical and Mythological foundations are a dicey when the vast majority of people who have been writing the "Canon" are White, Christian, Men who have a vested interest in not looking like idiots to the rest of thier profession... On the other hand you can read something like Forbidden Archeology by Cremo and Thompson and get a real example of the exact opposite situation... No-one takes them seriously (and I really don't think that they should for the vast majority of what they say) but they give an excellent example of this process in effect. > > Perhaps we all need to lighten up and regard In Nomine as a game rather > > than reality. > Has _anyone_ been regarding In Nomine as reality? If so, they should > probably get professional help. I don't know who you're talking to, > here. I sense an attempt to divert attention from inaccurate statements > you made. For my part until I see *anyone's* Ph.D. in Theology or Anthropology with a CV that supports the statements that they make as to what is "true" or whatever I really don't any of us should point the finger at anyone else about inaccurate statements... The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:48:15 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> A bit of something in celestial blue... This is a ditty I wrote up as part of a character's initial description, and it seemed like the sort of thing to send to the list, so I am. Enjoy! +++ +++ +++ +++ The reliever shook with pain, his skin tearing, his eyes burning. He couldn't be contained -- not any longer -- but he couldn't... couldn't break free, couldn't tear his skin away and become... Become.... "Summon the General," the Seraph murmured to the Ofanite next to him. "He's fledging." The reliever felt tears sting his eyes -- it hurt so badly, and he couldn't get free no matter what he did. It burned and held him back - -- they never said it would hurt like this, but he wouldn't cry out. He wouldn't dishonor himself. Not like this. Not ever-- "It hurts," the quiet voice said, and the reliever looked up, finding the dark eyes of the obsidian knight before him. So beautiful he was. So perfectly beautiful.... "Lord Commander," the reliever whispered, awe and love outweighing even this pain. "Yes, child." The Archangel put his arms on the reliever's shoulders. "It hurts. I know. Once this happened to me." "...you?" the reliever whispered. The Archangel nodded slightly, smiling a hint. "You're fledging Malakite, like I did," he said quietly. "It's painful to fledge Malakite. Your skin tries to contain the pure essence of your honor, the symphony's strains of sheerest virtue. But it can't. Either it must otherwise be contained, or you will be forced to fledge into another Choir. Do you want that? You can, if you wish, and I will think no less of you." The reliever was held fast, by the Archangel's hands and the Archangel's eyes. The eyes wouldn't let him retreat into the pain. Fledge into a Malakite? God's Kings? The Archangel's most valuable, most honorable warriors? But it would be so easy to flee the pain.... "I would follow you, Lord," the reliever whispered. The Archangel nodded. "I can see the honor in you," he said quietly. "Now, you must swear your oaths. Only your oaths can contain your wrath. Only their chains can let you become what you so crave to be." The reliever shivered, and closed his eyes. All Relievers who followed the Sword thought about this moment -- what they might swear. Who they might become, if they granted the honor of being a Virtue.... His lips moved, the pain too much for the onlookers to hear his whispers. But the Lord Commander heard. Heard the first Oath that twisted between them, forging a beautiful silver chain that wrapped around his torso. Then another. A third. A fourth. Laurence rose slowly, lifting the bound reliever towards the sky, and suddenly, the pain shuddered out into purest music, the Symphony shimmering as the reliever's skin boiled into silver and obsidion notes. Black wings unfurled and spread. A jet-black face seemed to expand out of the remains of the reliever's hair and skin. Until finally the Archangel held a Malakite, and drew him into a warrior's embrace. The Malakite would have stayed there forever, embracing the Lord and Master he so willingly had bound himself to. But as Laurence let him go, the Malakite was not afraid. He was in no pain. He was proud, and certain, and lowered himself to his knee before him. "What is your name," the Lord Commander asked. "Cheveyo, Your Eminance." "A good name." The Archangel turned to the Seraph who had first seen Cheveyo fledging. The Seraph offered a sheathed sword up, and Laurence took it, hefting the blade in its sheath for a moment. "Are you ready?" "Yes, Lord Commander." "Mm. Which means no, but a proud answer nonetheless." He slowly offered the sheathed sword to Cheveyo. "I will use you as my weapon, Chevyeo. I will strike at evil's heart with you. I will drive you through evil if I can. You may shatter against it. You may be used to deflect evil's riposte, and break there. You may be destroyed in body and soul. Do you accept this service?" "Yes," Cheveyo murmured, and accepted the blade. "Then rise, and let us figure out how best to use you." - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 21:34:07 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote David Rodemaker wrote: > It has> only been in the past 30 or 40 years that the concept of a possible earlier > matrifocal culture *existing* in parts of what has become the Western world > has become slightly acceptable. It's become fashionable, anyway. > Historical and Mythological foundations are> a dicey when the vast majority of people who have been writing the "Canon"> are White, Christian, Men who have a vested interest in not looking like > idiots to the rest of thier profession... This is true, though less so in the last 30 or 40 years. However, the fact remains that there's virtually no evidence of any prehistoric matriarchy, and a fair amount of evidence against it. The Great Pre-Patriarchal Pre-Monotheism Goddess-Worshipping Matriarchy is at this point basically speculation combined with wishful thinking, and unlikely to become more than that. > For my part until I see *anyone's* Ph.D. in Theology or Anthropology with a > CV that supports the statements that they make as to what is "true" or > whatever I really don't any of us should point the finger at anyone else > about inaccurate statements... You believe that no one can correct factual inaccuracies (or comment on improbabilities) unless one has a Ph.D. in the relevant field? It's impossible to know what you're talking about without a doctorate? That must make it awfully difficult for you to have meaningful discussions with people. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:40:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 17:25:16 -0500From: David Edelstein Subject: Dissent! (Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) >You know, I'm gonna be ornery (just 'cause I do it so >well) and tell you why I *didn't* like the Malakite >version of Novalis. (The list has also been boring >lately, so....)No offense to Maurice, it's well->written and it does work. So I'll apologize to him in >advance before I deliberately go into rant mode. >This is more a criticism of the whole concept and the >implicit attitudes it entails than of the writeup >itself. (And I'm also not claiming either Maurice or >anyone else who liked the writeup necessarily holds >all the attitudes I lash out at below.) >I also realize that it was written up purely as an >exercise in creating alternate Superiors, and that it >takes a lot of twisting to turn Novalis into a >Malakite.That said, duck and cover. Mass comment first. Y'all can call me Moe. :) Does this mean I can't use your writeup of Uriel and his Attunements for my new, improved Tsadayim? :) Seriously, however, I do appreciate the criticism. As an inexperienced, wannabe game writer, getting feedback of any kind is hard. It's nice to have people say, "I liked it. It wrung an emotional response out of me." It's just as nice to hear, "I hated the bloody thing, and here's why." I may not agree with you, but I'm happy to hear the opinion. IOW, David, no offense taken, though I'm glad that you went to the trouble to distinguish between the omplicit attitudes in the work and the writing. As for Blackie Novy, well ... I needed something to galvanize the Cycle, I've always wondered what a Malakite Novalis* would look like, and there was an obvious button to push. Bear in mind I didn't _like_ much where it was going, either, but it seemed to fit, and the writing didn't suck. There are some bits in it that I did like writing: they were the sorrowful stuff, rather than the "SMITE! SMITE! SMITE! And love your fellow man" bits. And, yes, the red hair point is a fair cop. Not the scar. I have _plans_ for the scar. But the hair was possibly over the top. :) Morgan, (FAW) *She's one of the Superiors who I've always thought was much tougher than her public persona. Possibly I overcompensated. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:45:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:14:57 -0700 (PDT)From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) >One or two things... >What was Hell's reaction??? >I was looking forward to Andre's two cents, >especially... >:) >O.===== Lord, man, do you know how hard it is to come up with those quotes for those on the Superior's _own_ side, let alone the enemy? Of course, this was the first one I did where it would matter, as the opinions of Superiors to a "traitor" would be, "Kill him/it/her." I'd thought I'd save the space. :) Morgan (FAW) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:55:45 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> A friendly Hello, and various things of note... At 7:52 PM -0400 05/09/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >I've long been a fan of Philip's art, but one of the best pieces in >his total lexicon *has* to be the Fiat Justina movie poster. Wow. Yeah. It's veddy nice. I like the pic of Betharan myself. . . But hey. *grin* Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:26:16 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A bit of something in celestial blue... Beautifully written! Thank you for sharing it with us... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 02:30:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> A friendly Hello, and various things of note... On Tue, 9 May 2000, Philip J. Moyer wrote: > So, without further ado, I present the story "Resurrection", a story of > _In Nomine 2070_, an online psuedo-campaign I run with a little help from > my friends: > > http://www.jurai.net/~pmoyer/IN2070/Prose/mariel.res.html Very, very nice! I've filed that one away in the back of my mind as a possible campaign seed...theft is the sincerest form of flattery. :) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! Ummon asked: "The world is such a wide world, why do you answer a bell and don ceremonial robes?" (Zen Koan) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:40:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) > However, the fact remains that there's virtually no evidence > of any prehistoric matriarchy, and a fair amount of evidence > against it. Such as? Based on the strictures of simple biology, organized society is not immediately benificial to a sperm-producer. Following the best route to passing on our genes, we'd be out running around, pursuing the Shotgun Approach to fatherhood. The successful males are those that are bigger, stronger, smarter, and faster. Egg-producers, who *must* devote a considerable amount of time and effort to bring a child to something approaching maturity, have, as a biological imperitive, the need to find the best mate possible to provide for themselves and the child. That's difficult, because he's off doinking the neighbors. So you come up with the idea of "people" and "not-people," classify everyone in one of these two groups, and let the men kill as many of the not-people as they want. "You go have fun, and come home when you're ready." In Navajo (and most other tribes with which I anm familiar) the word for themselves is "the People." "Stranger" is the same word as "enemy" and "not us." > The Great Pre-Patriarchal Pre-Monotheism Goddess-Worshipping > Matriarchy is at this point basically speculation combined > with wishful thinking, and unlikely to become more than that. What about modern and historical matriarchies? The Navajo are still a matriarchal society, with ownership of property having a strong cultural bias in favor of the women. Navajo divorce: you come home, and all your stuff has been thrown outta the hogan. This is similar in many ways to the historical Norse, where women owned everything but the weapons and the ships. Many African tribes are matriachal, whith the attitude of "Women own and run everything; men just hunt and kill each other." Sociologically, matriarchy is a obvious means of government, stemming from familial obligation. After all, there's rarely any question as to your mother. JM.02 O. ===== ** Lead Playtester for Storyteller: The Colon ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:50:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> A bit of something in celestial blue... > This is a ditty I wrote up as part of a character's initial > description, and it seemed like the sort of thing to send to > the list, so I am. Enjoy! Very nice! I'm going to use this... O. ===== ** Lead Playtester for Storyteller: The Colon ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:55:15 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote >Excuse me if this sounds sarcastic, but you are aware of who Jesus was, >according to Catholic tradition? The son of God who also was God? Mary was >his mother, hence 'Mother of God'. Do you seriously find this odd, or are >you genuinely ignorant of Catholic beliefs and thought that they had raised >a random woman to be above God and be accepted as his mother? Of course I know who Mary was. The fact remains that in what is fundamentally a Patriarchal religion a woman becomes elevated to, as you correctly say, above God. Ashley Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:18:49 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote >This is true, though less so in the last 30 or 40 years. However, the >fact remains that there's virtually no evidence of any prehistoric >matriarchy, and a fair amount of evidence against it. The Great >Pre-Patriarchal Pre-Monotheism Goddess-Worshipping Matriarchy is at this >point basically speculation combined with wishful thinking, and unlikely >to become more than that. I tend to agree with much of this. There is little evidence, if any, for a monotheistic Goddess Worshipping culture, let alone a matriarchy. The Mother Goddess (in whatever name) is only really possible as part of a polytheistic culture and belief system. In many polythesitic beliefs the power of various deities changes over the expanse time, or depends on the precise date or festival, or on location. For this there is considerable evidence and many of the traditions and beliefs associated with the pre christian polytheistic cultures have continued through to the modern day. Ashley Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:45:31 +0100 From: "mink" Subject: IN> Re:art work >> all the other players had vaguely great >> looking celestial forms. in the end i let him evolve his shape to that of >>a >> human made of flames and great wings of fire, they were a lot happier >>after >> that, they put a lot more in to the game when the thought they looked real >> cool celestial form. >actually, i find the ophanim one of the more interesting celestial forms. >angels aren't human, and i don't see the point of having them look like >people with wings. it seems kind of dull to me. i prefer the weirder ones, >like seraphim and ophanim, and those cool alternate ones earl wajenberg >posted a while back if any one could tell me where to get the alternate celestial forms from i'd be grateful. thanks for the art addresses. i like what i see at last. }:-) Colgarothialmes, Demon of Damnation, Shedite with alot of itchy trigger fingers. (-:{ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:20:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote At 9:34 PM -0500 5/9/00, David Edelstein wrote: >[...] However, the >fact remains that there's virtually no evidence of any prehistoric >matriarchy, and a fair amount of evidence against it. I thought that,what was iot.. Crete? The placer that got blown up when Belial toasted Oannes (look, IN ref! O:> ) was sufficiently ambigeous as to get a PBS speculation that it may have been matrisarchal. (goddess-worshipping wasn't mentioned, though.) Or hs the sleep deprivation ("you wqnt to wake up every 1.5 houys niw??") got ti my memories, making me conflate things? - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:23:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) At 12:40 AM -0700 5/10/00, O. S. Kerr wrote: [lots of interesting stuff, but...] *sniffle* I see no IN here. Needs IN here. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1618 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.