From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 15 18:03:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11372 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:03:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA21397 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:00:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:00:57 -0500 Message-Id: <200005152300.SAA21397@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1628 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 15 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1628 In this digest: Re: IN> New Angels Re: IN> New Angels Re: IN> Re: Another In Nomine crossover Re: IN> New Angels IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> A few things Re: IN> New Angels Re: IN> Relievers and Hearts Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview A quote from babelfish (was Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview) Re: IN> Free Lilim RE: IN> New Angels Re: IN> New Angels Re: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) Re: IN> How do I know you're what you say you are? Re: IN> Re: Another In Nomine crossover IN> Sin and Damnation Re: IN> How do I know you're what you say you are? Re: IN> How do I know you're what you say you are? Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover Re: A quote from babelfish (was Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview) IN> Question - Vessels & death Re: IN> translation Re: IN> translation Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover Re: IN> A few things Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover RE: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) Re: IN> New Angels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:05:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> New Angels I recentl issued a minor rant on "lilim" as the singular for itself. Another bit of IN terminology I'm not fond of is "reliever" for sub-angelic celestials. I inquired about Greek diminutive endings (since "angel" is a Greek word) and hit on "angelisco" as a term for minor angel. The other Greek diminutive for angel was "angelaki," which someone said sounded like a frozen dessert served in Hell... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:19:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> New Angels David Rodemaker wrote: > Ouch... I love it but don't Celestials need Hearts to operate on the > Corporeal plane? They don't need Hearts, but if they get put in Trauma, they're screwed. (Spirits might be an exception, though -- I can't remember offhand.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: Another In Nomine crossover - --- "Matthew W." wrote: > With all this Star Wars talk going on, I just have to ask: did anyone > else when they first read the Fiery Sword artifact's description > immediately think of the modified Vapula/Jean version, the Light > Saber. > Same rules, cooler modern look. I have actually refered to such in my game. It's a convenient way to explain the artifact to new players -- and you KNOW that somebody's going to want one eventually. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately, it kills all of its students." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:35:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Angels - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I recentl issued a minor rant on "lilim" as the singular for > itself. Another bit of IN terminology I'm not fond of is > "reliever" for sub-angelic celestials. > > I inquired about Greek diminutive endings (since "angel" is > a Greek word) and hit on "angelisco" as a term for minor > angel. The other Greek diminutive for angel was "angelaki," > which someone said sounded like a frozen dessert served in Hell... "Angelaki?" Ouch, I'll pass, thanks. "Angelisko" is a but better (and is much to be preferred over "angelicules," doncha' think?). But here's another angle -- there are supposedly more types of celestial spirit than Relievers. What are the others called and what do they do? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately, it kills all of its students." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:38:32 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Free Lilim At 12:19 PM -0500 5/15/00, David Edelstein wrote: >David Rodemaker wrote: > > Ouch... I love it but don't Celestials need Hearts to operate on the > > Corporeal plane? > > >They don't need Hearts, but if they get put in Trauma, they're screwed. >(Spirits might be an exception, though -- I can't remember offhand.) Which reminds me-- What do people usually do with Free Lilim in their games? Do they default as Heartless or do they usually purchase a Heart from a Superior? And if so, do they have 'free access' to said Heart or is it catch as catch can? If not, does the Game treat them as 'Renegades it's not cricket to reel in just yet' or 'Renegades we have some use for?' I know the official 'word,' I'm just curious how most people handle it. The most prominent Free Lilim in my campaign setting's paranoid about vessel death, because she doesn't want to go *near* Limbo -- she's afraid the mortals she has geases on will die and her carefully built organization and position will get lost. How about other GM's? (Or Free Lilim players, for that matter.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:42:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> A few things > 7) Seeing as Fluerity has dominion over drugs, does he get all the caffeine > addicts as well? ((oh lord help us roleplayers... so many demons with word > that are biased against us)) This is how I Fleurity and his interactions: Fleurity is a minor demon prince, who is in the process of trying to become a major one. (If he actually makes it is left in the hands for those GMs who care about such minutae in the In Nomine universe.) Unlike Nybbas, who made a fairly clean break with Vapula when it was time to gain his Princehood, Fleurity still has a significant overlap with Haagenti in differentiating between who has dominion over which word. For example, Fleurity has a clear stake in everything from Heroin Addiction to feeding 2 year olds Ritalin -- words that are clearly and undeniably Drug related. On the other hand, it's not clear where Haagenti leaves off and Fleurity picks up for more overwhelming Words like "Alcoholism" -- and essentially, on that particular one, it was left in Haagenti's perview since alcohol consumption had a broader range than it's intoxicating effect, and it was one that Fleurity simply hadn't grabbed yet. As for caffeine, I can't remember how it was delineated, and it's likely that, since people drink caffeine for the stimulant more than the taste (Mountain Dew, anyone?), it's edging its way under Fleurity out from under Haagenti if it isn't already there yet. Since I can't remember anything -- I'm going senile -- you're going to have to nod your head and smile. (Yeah, the document is right here, but that means opening it.) Until S4 comes out, I would assume blandly that if it works in your campaign to have Fleurity have the word of Caffeine, then let him have it. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. Taylor: "We can't fall. We're Malakim-avians. We're rescueing Batboy because he has honor." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:08:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> New Angels Michael Walton wrote: > "Angelaki?" Ouch, I'll pass, thanks. "Angelisko" is a but > better (and is much to be preferred over "angelicules," doncha' > think?). But here's another angle -- there are supposedly more > types of celestial spirit than Relievers. What are the others > called and what do they do? I didn't know there were other kinds of sub-angelic spirit (not counting imps and their ilk), but I offer "angelisco" as the blanket name for the whole category. Or one could go Italian, with "angeletto"/"angeletti," if you don't mind inevitably inviting the images of Cupid-babies from Renaissance art. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:13:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Heinen Subject: Re: IN> Relievers and Hearts > At 12:19 PM -0500 5/15/00, David Edelstein wrote: > >David Rodemaker wrote: > > > Ouch... I love it but don't Celestials need Hearts to operate on the > > > Corporeal plane? > > > > > >They don't need Hearts, but if they get put in Trauma, they're screwed. > >(Spirits might be an exception, though -- I can't remember offhand.) As human spirts seem to have no problem finding their way to one place or another. One thought is that relievers are too small to need a heart. Or, unfettered by the extra complications of a choir, they are drawn to the place in the symphony that resonates with their superior's word, the only thing that binds them as it is. I've always seen relievers in many different earth-bound missions as it is. You just never notice because they force count is low enough that no one really spots them. You could see them all over as assistants, or role runners. I've always had problems with the thought that roles, even large ones, could be just created. Sure, level one and two perhaps, a few fake papers and drop them in a new area. But for those tied tightly into the symphony, I would think it would have had to start off as a level one several years ago, and a reliever building that into the level five role that they really wanted. Collecting mementos, writing notes (in a form of a journal). If you use this idea, heres an adventure seed to go along with it. The high school reunion of the PC's role/5 is coming up. And, of course, they need to attend, perhaps to combat influence from the other side, or it is something the role would have done and simply not going would be out of the ordinary. Bring back the reliever that ran the role (who has now, perhaps, fledged) as a char that has all the history the players need, but with a few quirks that make it hard to get it from them. (Perhaps an Ofanite that wants to be out and partying with the crowd, or a new Virture that sees/remembers the evils of their old high school classmates or someone influencing them and must be creatively kept from being over-zealous. (Yes, harping on all the stereotypes I am.) Then again, this could all be a deluded fantasy and make no sense what-so-ever. I need more sleep. :_) - -Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:19:23 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover Ben wrote: >You're also viewing the In Nomine Superiors through as >dark a lens as possible, except in the case of the >demons, who you seem to >be viewing sympathetically. I wouldn't say that. What I did was divide the Superiors into two categories: militant and non-militant. I then used what I felt was reasonable logic to explain why some would switch sides. I spent all of .00005 seconds deciding that no matter how funny it would be, Laurence really couldn't support the Empire, and that the Jedi were an order of his soldiers (though no matter what, I maintain that Kobal wrote their dress code). I'll admit that I tend to consider the Superiors to be more...abstract than the way that they are presented. In many ways, In Nomine Superiors distinguish themselves from the concept they support by having a personality. But, I feel that takes away some of the grandeur and majesty of them. I'm much more happy giving them an alien logic for doing things, because it simply supports their Word and removes them from being "mega-NPCs," which they sometimes come off as. Besides, to restrict them to human logic processes in the Star Wars universe would be fairly ridiculous, IMO. As for the West End products, there are several areas they dabble in that make the Star Wars universe grayer. Perhaps not as gray as I make it, but a lot grayer than the movies. (Also, I'm curious about your difficulties with the WEG system, as I find it relatively easy to deal with. But, that's probably best done via e-mail.) However, the WEG books are guilty of the thinking "this NPC is a bad guy, so he's got to have a lot of Dark Side points, regardless of any proof that he did anything bad!" Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:38:55 CDT From: "One Dangerous Angel" Subject: Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview David, Pax et Bonum. Could you resend the link to the intv, please. Thankee-sai :) >http://www.pegasus.de/ringbote/Interviews/DerekPearcy.html led to a 404. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:48:38 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview One Dangerous Angel wrote: > > David, > > Pax et Bonum. > Could you resend the link to the intv, please. > Thankee-sai :) > > >http://www.pegasus.de/ringbote/Interviews/DerekPearcy.html > > led to a 404. I just clicked on it again, and it worked fine. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:00:16 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview One Dangerous Angel wrote: > > David, > > Pax et Bonum. > Could you resend the link to the intv, please. > Thankee-sai :) > > >http://www.pegasus.de/ringbote/Interviews/DerekPearcy.html > > led to a 404. Works for me. Try it again... there may have been net traffic or other weirdness going on. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:02:09 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: A quote from babelfish (was Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview) "Additionally Derek Pearcy was involved in the development by Illuminati new World order, the Trading Card play from the house Steve Jackson. It was active thereby not only as play inventors beside Steve Jackson; the card layout comes to a large extent from it and it many illustrations coloriert. The ring messenger spoke with it on the OCNspiracy. " This was courtesy of the babelfish translation engine at babelfish.altavista.com. Doesn't it sound like something a random illuminated phrase generator would kick out? Note: Admission of what we've always known...INWO was developed BY the Illuminati. Now...how did the hobbits get in there? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:03:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim - --- Whistling in the Dark wrote: > What do people usually do with Free Lilim in their games? Do they > default as Heartless or do they usually purchase a Heart from a > Superior? And if so, do they have 'free access' to said Heart or is > it catch as catch can? If not, does the Game treat them as 'Renegades > it's not cricket to reel in just yet' or 'Renegades we have some use > for?' > > I know the official 'word,' I'm just curious how most people handle > it. I treat them as Renegades. If a Free Lilim wants a Heart, she can swear service to a Superior. If that leaves a bad taste in her mouth, she can always cut a deal with Mom -- but the size of Geas involved there should give any player pause. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately, it kills all of its students." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:09:26 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> New Angels > Character I'm dying to play : Reliever of Creation > > No Choir Dissonance Condition, no Superior Dissonance Condition. > > This guy has realised that he has the potential to be the > -=perfect=- "angel". He's been around for ages, and keeps > nocking back teh offer of a 9th force. He has skills, songs, > etc, coming out of the wazoo, but just doesn't want to > fledge, so that he can be an incredibly effective soldier in > the war. .. Or he could just be a Cherub of Creation and not attune to anyone... Same deal. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:13:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Angels - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I didn't know there were other kinds of sub-angelic spirit (not > counting imps and their ilk), but I offer "angelisco" as the > blanket name for the whole category. > > Or one could go Italian, with "angeletto"/"angeletti," if you don't > mind inevitably inviting the images of Cupid-babies from > Renaissance art. Hmmm... angeletti... sounds good, works for me (despite the fact that it sounds like an Italian sports car. Or maybe because of that...). As to the alleged existence of Celestial spirits other than Relievers, it is not mentioned directly in any IN product that I know of. It is *implied* in the core rulebook. I would like to see some examples, if only to balance out the sides (Hell gets Imps and Gremlins; why should Relievers be outnumbered?). Maybe I'll write something up.. if someone would be so kind as to tell me how one posts to the IN Collection. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately, it kills all of its students." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:41:48 -0400 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) From: Elizabeth McCoy > (see www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata -- yes, I hated the Heavenwide > alarm too. I liked frying demons instead. Mmmm, the smell of sizzling > Balseraph in the morning!) Oh, excellent. I don't worry too much about diverging from canon, but if canon changes to suit me better, well, I suppose my personal symphony is strong. > --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap > and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits > on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. > (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) - -Aaron Medwin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:33:05 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> How do I know you're what you say you are? >How do other angels/demons/whatever identify themselves to their > own side? >>That's what Seraphim are for. (Though Malakim, Elohim, and Mercurians all have pretty good resonances for sorting angels from diabolicals, and a Kyriotate of Destiny or Protection could do a quick check if necessary. "All right, if you're really an angel/Saint/Soldier of God, you won't mind letting me possess you for a couple of seconds to make sure.")<< That's about what I thought... My NPC's are driving some of my players buggy with this, though. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:33:44 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Another In Nomine crossover >> With all this Star Wars talk going on, I just have to ask: did anyone else when they first read the Fiery Sword artifact's description immediately think of the modified Vapula/Jean version, the Light Saber. Same rules, cooler modern look.<< Yup. Not only that, but I've got an updated artifact in play to match... Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:11:23 +0100 From: "mink" Subject: IN> Sin and Damnation Stages of Damnation (or how the shedim have fun) As a GM (or is that Conductor of the Orchestra?), i wondored just how easy it is for the Shedim to do what they do. I thought of all the classic sins, and realized that is easier to goad and tempt some one to damnation in small steps. After all, if J.Doe goes out and murders his wife and kids, then what more is ther left for the shedim to lure him in to? Not much to be honest, i realized that the road to hell is a long and slow winding way. In this exercise i will try to explain why i think this is so. SIN. Everyone does it. maybe not in the old style of the bible, but we all sin. Some times its a little sin, other times it would put our naes in headlines for a week or two in the national press. One extreme or the other. Most starting players go for the most extreme things they can think of, with out giving the story that much thought. However, a player may realize that a sly word here, a dirty look there can be entirely world destroying for the poor little humans. LITTLE SINS Just what is a little sin i hear you ask? Things like white lies, forgeting to feed the cat, searching the net for porn, cheating in school, grafitti on the school bus, spending the change from the few dollers your mom gave you to get the groceries, smoking in the school loos, taking the stationary from where you work, cheating on the computer in games, rolling dice and saying you got the target number when you was a point or two away, throwing the burger wrapper out of the window after you've eaten lunch, borrowing a cd and never returning it. These are just a ew of the small, easily over looked and forgivable sins. But after that most players think they are in the major league, they start doing the rape/burn/murder big sins. No one really looks at the vast scope in between. What is it that leads from one small sin to the next and the next and the next...? Complaicency. Thats what leads to the next batch of sins. You get lazy and complaicent, you stop caring just enough to not notice it. J.Doe, after scribbling on the back of the bus seat with his marker pen, bets bored, theres no thrill in that after a few times. J.Doe needs more to give him the buzz. So out he goes to the local paint store and buys some spray cans, everyday items, the store clerk doesn't ask why he wants them, he just assumes that J.Doe is helping his dad respray his car. J.Doe a few nights later, goes to the local sports center and sprays up the :) face. A day later he is bored of happy faces, so he starts leaving other pictures C====8, but say a some one sees him, a latino or afro-american, and goes after him, say that J.Doe gets away, he is gonna start to have them racist thoughts running around his head. A day or so later J.Doe goes out to the sport center again, by now others have left their mark on the wall aswell, so J.Doe gets out those trusty spray cans and scrawls up a racist picture and a comment or two, "hell, others have done, so i might as well do it". A day or two later its in the local press that racist slurs were daubed all over the local sports hall. J.Doe is happy, he has reached out and touched the world, he has started to make his mark on the world and no one was able to stop him. "Except that friggin nigger" thats his next thought, how to get back at the 'home boyz' down the block who take the mickey out of him because he don't walk the walk and can't talk the talk like they do. Over the next day or so he will get just that little more bitter and resentful and go out on night, say the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong guy. J.Doe gets in to a fight, gets a little bruised and sore but is other wise ok, he spends the next day at colllege bragging about getting into a fight with a gang and he took them all on and beat them up real good. Maybe J.Doe gets a skin head hair cut, buys some doc martin boots, and joins a white power group, just to show that he is not scared of any "niggers, kooks, chinks and wops" and tat he, the white guy has more right to the block/town/city/country than they do. Say that after a while he is approached by some guys who thinks like he thinks, does what he does, say that they get him to join the kkk. A week or so later after all the hate propaganda, he starts going to rallies and metings. Say that a few days after that he goes out to another town, to a bar and gets in to a fight and leaves a few guys broken and battered and goes home. Say that a day or two later the guys at the lodge give him a knife. Say that he and te guys go to another nearby town and get into another bar fight, this time he has his knife and aint scared to use it on any one that gets in his way, say that he knives a guy, doesn't kill him, just cuts him up badly enough. A day later it's in the papers for the city. Say that J.Doe finds that he liked the feeling of hurting some one with a knife. Say that he goes out and buys a gun, which in america is a common thing. Say that he phones the guys up and they all arrange to go a little further afield, a few hours drive later and there they are, in the big city, looking for trouble and loaded with attitude and a gun. They get in to a fight, J.Doe kills a guy, shoots him til the gun just clicks empty, say that J.Does friends have gone some where else whilst he kills the guy. But say that some one saw what happened, the cops get called, J.Doe is caught running around looking for his freinds. Now immagine if J.Does friends were a Balseraph, a Habbalite and a they had a shedim friend who J.Doe never met. He never met the Shedite because the shedite was in him. The college kid goes from graffiti guy to murderer in very slow gradual steps. Each step he thought e took willingly, not realizing that the balseraph was feeding him white supremacy lies, the habbalite was enhancing his emotions of hate and anger, the shedim was slowly suggesting things to him. Aa few months later, Lucifer is waiing in the new arrivals lounge of hell, waiting for J.Doe to get the chair, lucifer smiles on another job well done. Slow and steady. Thats the way to do it. I appoligise if the subject matter offends anyone, but these are not my oppinions, just a reflection on how a shedim would take his time to degrade J.Doe and bring him in to damnation. }:-)~ Colgarothialmes. Demon of Damnation, Shedite who was there at the time ~(-:{ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:33:05 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> How do I know you're what you say you are? >How do other angels/demons/whatever identify themselves to their > own side? >>That's what Seraphim are for. (Though Malakim, Elohim, and Mercurians all have pretty good resonances for sorting angels from diabolicals, and a Kyriotate of Destiny or Protection could do a quick check if necessary. "All right, if you're really an angel/Saint/Soldier of God, you won't mind letting me possess you for a couple of seconds to make sure.")<< That's about what I thought... My NPC's are driving some of my players buggy with this, though. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:36:26 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> How do I know you're what you say you are? >It would seem that celestials run the very real risk of having someone from >the other side pose as one of their own on earth. >>Yes -- this is, as it happens, deliberate. Having that edge of uncertainty (unless you feel like making the noise to take celestial form) is part of the setting that was put there on purpose. O:><< Good. Then I'll just find a way to set my players up to deal with the consequences of *not* being paranoid. And they can learn why my NPC's *are* paranoid. >>However, one of the ways around it is the "Mirror of Truth" relic from the Liber Reliquarum. Now in handy locket size for triads of Judgment! (And as it happens, that design is listed in S1. Hee.) Those things, fed a little Essence and activated, will show celestial forms reflected in them.<< Hm... I have both books, but haven't really spent any time with LR, so I missed this one. Thanks! Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:27:25 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover At 2:19 PM -0400 5/15/00, Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >Ben wrote: > > >You're also viewing the In Nomine Superiors through as > >dark a lens as possible, except in the case of the > >demons, who you seem to > >be viewing sympathetically. > >I wouldn't say that. What I did was divide the Superiors into two >categories: militant and non-militant. I then used what I felt was >reasonable logic to explain why some would switch sides. I spent >all of .00005 seconds deciding that no matter how funny it would be, >Laurence really couldn't support the Empire, and that the Jedi were >an order of his soldiers (though no matter what, I maintain that >Kobal wrote their dress code). Actually, I maintain the Empire is absolutely Laurence's dream. Perfect order, regimented troops, centralized authority, a single philosophy and no distracting elements. The Jedi, on the other hand, are pretty demonic. They lie like Balseraphs. They act individually (heck, look at Qui Gon Jinn defying the Council). They encourage chaos and disorder. I could see Michael *maybe* supporting the Rebel Alliance, and Janus joining in -- but most of the rest of Heavenly forces are squarely on the side of the Stormtroopers, it seems to me. Which makes a certain sense, when you realize Star Wars and all its sequels, be they excellent or dreary, are perfect fodder for the Media to push. Nybbas isn't going to put out a "strong centralized Heaven *good,* individualized, selfish Hell *bad*" message. When do the Jedi, like those old Balseraphs Yoda and Ben Kenobi, act even the slightest bit like the Seraphim Council? When they tell Luke not to go rescue his friends, because it's better they die "for the big picture." And yet, Luke *does* rescue his friends, learns the truth, hears Ben Kenobi's "relative truth" speech, and yet they still beat the Empire. The subtext, IN speaking, is clear. Hell is the good guys. Self-interest leads to the best for all. Central Authority is bad. Princesses belong in loincloths. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:29:09 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: A quote from babelfish (was Re: IN> Derek Pearcy interview) At 12:02 PM -0700 5/15/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >"Additionally Derek Pearcy was involved in the development by Illuminati > >[...] > > Note: Admission of what we've always known...INWO was >developed BY the Illuminati. And Derek Percy was either developed by them or was one of them. Or both. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:02:35 +0100 From: Dave Taylor Subject: IN> Question - Vessels & death Just a quickie question (if such an animal exists on the list)... What is peoples stance on celestial vessel death? Do you leave the vessel behind and go into trauma (leaving a corpse), vessel vanishes immediately, vessel decomposes supernaturally fast/supernaturally slowly? What do you consider the pros and cons of each senario? TTFN Dave - -- Long is the way, and hard, that out of Hell leads up to light - John Milton - Paradise Lost ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:56:23 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> translation At 8:28 -0400 5/12/00, Laurent wrote: >Among all the linguists on the list, would anybody know how to translate a >"Tether" in French ? >The best I could come up with was "Temple"... There was a similar problem translating Tether into Latin for the title of the "Tetherbook" (L. Castellorum). There weren't any really good translations, so it got translated rather loosely. (Castellum = "fort" or "stronghold", which seemed a reasonable description; "castle" comes from this word, of course.) There were more literal translations for "tether" in Latin, but none of them sounded very good as a book title, and SJ finally chose "Liber Castellorum" since it sounded pretty good, and was a reasonable word for what a Tether typically is -- a stronghold of the Word, usually both physically and metaphysically. I'm surprised no one has asked about the title, actually. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:09:16 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> translation At 10:04 -0400 5/12/00, Laurent wrote: >>> Among all the linguists on the list, would anybody know how to >>> translate a "Tether" in French ? >>> The best I could come up with was "Temple"... >> >> How close in sense would "conduit" be? > >Well, "conduit" is usually a kind of big pipe an element from point A to point >B. Stuff like air, water, petrol, etc. I've never really focused on what Tethers >really are, but I would rather think of a kind of gateway inside a building. Actually, my own visualization of them is as a sort of pipe between two realms; this definitely influenced my section of the Castellorum. They are also definitely conduits for Essence between the realms, though "fountains" might be more colorful, and a bit more accurate. There's certainly no direct connection between Tethers and buildings; though many of them are in buildings, many are not. >I thought "portail" (= gateway) would be good, but the "building" part is >missing. Thus my current translation with "Temple". "gateway" isn't bad, it's probably more accurate than "temple". I also tend to think of them as "tunnels", probably because of some vague quantum-mechanical view of the realms as different quantum states. Or something like that.... (OK, so I read a lot of Niven many years ago....) >Actually, how does it work? Does a Celestial automatically take celestial form >whenever it walks through the gate? (and ascend to Celestial plane)? The L. Castellorum contains more than you probably want to know about Tether mechanics. In general, Tethers are just "easy" pathways between the corporeal and celestial realms; you still have to go through the mechanics of ascension, though angels don't need to make Will rolls to ascend in a divine Tether (and demons don't in a Tether for the Word they serve). So yes, you have to go celestial first, and *choose* to ascend. (Though if I remember correctly what I wrote, L.Castellorum says there are rumored to be a few Tethers that can rip a celestial right out of their vessel and force them to ascend -- with no particular concern for whether it's the *right* celestial realm....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:15:37 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover From: "Whistling in the Dark" > > Actually, I maintain the Empire is absolutely Laurence's dream. > Perfect order, regimented troops, centralized authority, a single > philosophy and no distracting elements. You just described Asmodeus' dream more than you did Laurence's. > I could see Michael *maybe* supporting the Rebel Alliance, and Janus > joining in -- but most of the rest of Heavenly forces are squarely on > the side of the Stormtroopers, it seems to me. Only because you choose to view them through the darkest of lenses. > Self-interest leads to the best for all. It is the villains in the Star Wars saga who act out of self-interest, though. Senator Palpatine, Jabba the Hutt, Darth Vader (pre-redemption,) Greedo, and Boba Fett are all prime examples of self-interest. Han Solo and Lando Calrissian were originally strongly motivated by self-interest, but it was by putting that aside and fighting for the greater good that they became heros. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:35:23 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A few things At 3:03 -0400 5/15/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Anyway. Astrology, if I remember my classes >correctly, was eventually mined of the practical >knowledge associated with it (observations of the >stars, planets, eclipses, stuff like that) and turned >into Astronomy. The mystical aspects ended up with, >well, the mystics. :) Roughly correct, though it would also be appropriate to note that early astrology/astronomy was primarily concerned with calendar-keeping, and in that sense had a great deal of legitimate predictive power. Which, I suspect, later got expanded beyond the original solar/lunar calendar stuff into more dubious realms by the various priesthoods involved (probably partly due to customer demand...). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:42:35 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover > > Actually, I maintain the Empire is absolutely Laurence's dream. > > Perfect order, regimented troops, centralized authority, a single > > philosophy and no distracting elements. > You just described Asmodeus' dream more than you did Laurence's. Baal's dream, you mean. Laurence may value all those things, but he is honorable enough to recognize that the ends do not justify the means. Sure, you can have all those things, but at what expense? I dunno why people say that Hell is more about the individual and Heaven is more about the collective. Hell's superiors are petty tyrants at best who crush individuals. Heaven has Eli, Novalis, Michael, Janus, and others who sponser individuality. Even Laurence, the brightest target of those who accuse Heaven of being next to fascism, personally felt he was better suited to stabbing demons himself then asking others to do it. Hell, on the other hand, has no-one who *really* sponsers individuality. Malphas does, sort of, but the way he does it strips "individuality" of almost all of its connotations and meaning. Of course, Hell *is* based on a lie, and the first part of that lie seems to be Hell's monopolization of the term "individuality." Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:01:57 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) Robert wrote: > What damage can 'any unknown' really do in a cathedral if they > are anything > short of a Demon Prince or Lucifer himself? I can think of two DPs who are destructive and short on planning ahead who would leap at the chance to do some damage if they knew Heaven had an open-door policy on one of their cathedrals. Belial and Furfur. Leath (IMO, of course). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:11:30 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> New Angels > > This guy has realised that he has the potential to be the -=perfect=- > >"angel". He's been around for ages, and keeps nocking back teh offer of a > >9th force. He has skills, songs, etc, coming out of the wazoo, but just > >doesn't want to fledge, so that he can be an incredibly effective soldier in > >the war. .. > > > > Anybody have any ideas ? This is an undocumented IMC idea: Cadre Angels -- Angels who never swear allegiance to any Word [and can never become Worded] , who take on the Dissonance of whatever Word they are currently IST, in addition to their Choir dissonance, and who have to change their IST Word on a fairly frequent basis [best as NPCs who show up, lend a hand/give PCs a clue, and then are gone]. In other words, when you need a fully-fledged angel with previous experience, you borrow from Heaven's temp-pool, the Cadre Angels of Heaven. Additional note: IMG, they serve the Word of Heaven and do whatever needs doing for whoever needs them, all to the Glory, Honor, Service, and advancement of Heaven and its goals. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well - Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in hell! "Strange Blood" A Wolfrider's Reflection, by various artists ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1628 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.