From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 3 23:41:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23288 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:41:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA06537 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:40:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:40:31 -0500 Message-Id: <200007040440.XAA06537@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1698 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 3 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1698 In this digest: IN> [short] In Nomine 1/2, part 1/? IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question Re: IN> [short] In Nomine 1/2, part 1/? Re: IN> Mall Horrors! Re: IN> Djinn Resonance Fu Re: IN> Mall Horrors! Re: IN> Mall Horrors! IN> Eh? IN> Fwd: Bright Lilim Re: IN> Eh? Re: IN> Mall Horrors! Re: IN> Fwd: Bright Lilim IN> Beyond the Pale Re: IN> Bad Speling; or, McCoy's Canon Re: IN> What do Superiors due with their Stuff? Genius Loci (Was: Re: IN> Just in time for the Holidays...) Re: IN> Beyond the Pale Re: Genius Loci (Was: Re: IN> Just in time for the Holidays...) Re: IN> Eh? IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:43:14 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: IN> [short] In Nomine 1/2, part 1/? New Corporeal Discord: Jusenkyo When a character receives this discord, the GM should pick an animal. (The Discord should thus be rendered "Jusenkyo () / " on the character sheet.) Whenever the character is in a vessel, and is splashed with or immersed in cold water, her vessel turns to the animal specified; this confers the abilities and limitations of having a vessel of such a type, /without/ the benefit of speech. If the animal happens to be of the same species as the character's current vessel, the vessel switches to one of the opposite gender. The character is also bound by not being able to switch vessels effectively while under the influence of the cold water; she may not change vessels on the corporeal plane, and must make a Will roll to consciously inhabit a different vessel than her last one while in the celestial plane. (This Will roll is made as the character is returning to corporeal form.) In any event, the only way to change the original vessel back is by being splashed with or immersed in hot water. - -EDG ranma, you jerk! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 23:23:04 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question What are the limits on the object of a Cherub's (or Djinn's) resonance? Could a Cherub resonate on a _big_ object or animal, like a whale or a jumbo jet? (I'd say yes) What about locations? A house (IMO yes again)? A beach? A forest? How about resonating on a group of things as one... a school of fish, an anthill? Could an Celestial attune to a corporation? -- Don't laugh; they're "persons" under human law. Teensy weensy things? This actually came up IMC! "Okay, I'm going to try resonating on the virus." "You mean, on the vial of virus?" "No, the virus." Virtual things? I'd say *no*, but with mmmmaybe an exception for the appropriate Superior's servitors. So _perhaps_ a Djinn of the Media could resonate on a TV commercial or some such... he'd know whenever it was being broadcast. And perhaps a Cherub of Jean could do a piece of software or a packet. Thoughts? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 02:30:34 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> [short] In Nomine 1/2, part 1/? > New Corporeal Discord: Jusenkyo Something I missed: The level of the Discord is the penalty not only to the Will roll to change vessels, but to any attempt to convince anyone who has not witnessed the change (in at least one direction) that the two (normal and transformed) are one and the same. Note also that this Discord* can also be acquired by non-celestials! If it is, the person may /only/ change back and forth by use of the hot/cold water phenomenon. * (I've forgotten what the word is for Discord-type afflictions in mundanes. I know it's not Discord, though.) - -EDG all that dishonor for nothing! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:45:57 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Mall Horrors! In a message dated 7/1/00 2:37:48 PM, zenith@orleans.pave-france.org writes: >Was this a conscious decision to have these mall stores _not_ carry In >Nomine materials? I can't say this for certain, but I do know that once I stopped buying each In Nomine book as it came out from the WoTC game center in Seattle the books just... lingered... on the shelves. It may be a perception of the line's (lack of) popularity that's driving the decision. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:19:27 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Djinn Resonance Fu I'm pretty sure Cherubim and Djinn have to touch whatever it is they are attuning to. Or they can make eye contact. So if they can touch a virus or make eye contact with it, run with it. :-) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:39:55 -0400 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> Mall Horrors! From: > In a message dated 7/1/00 2:37:48 PM, zenith@orleans.pave-france.org writes: > > >Was this a conscious decision to have these mall stores _not_ carry In > >Nomine materials? > > I can't say this for certain, but I do know that once I stopped buying each > In Nomine book as it came out from the WoTC game center in Seattle the books > just... lingered... on the shelves. It may be a perception of the line's > (lack of) popularity that's driving the decision. During a visit to Seattle a few months back, I stopped in at the WotC Game Center, hoping to grab some IN books that I didn't have. On the far wall, tucked away, there was the entire Revelations Cycle - and just the Revelations Cycle, not even a core book, IPG, any Liber, nothing - marked 40% off. When I brought them to the register, the cashier made a snide remark about how the game sucked. The guy said that they weren't getting more in, either. On the other hand, several other stores I've visited not only carry the full line of In Nomine products, they sell them with incredible regularity. Personally, I'm just going to chalk it up to WotC's monopolistic approach to gaming and not a wide perception of the line. > Mark - -Aaron Medwin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:52:21 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Mall Horrors! I was in my local game shop (which I normally avoid like the plague) this weekend, and noticed they had pretty much all the IN books up on the wall marked at 10% off. What I don't see is how anyone thinks SJG can influence whether WotC-owned shops decide to order any of their books or not (!) I mean, short of the normal advertising/ marketing campaigns that they'd use to encourage sales from any other shop. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:29:19 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: IN> Eh? Elizabeth, Help clear up the weirdness on the SJ Games site please! There is no mention of Superiors 3 in the Just Shipped list! Surely some mistake. In fact it has vanished from the release lists. It's taking long enough for stuff to get over here these days as it is! (weeks instead of days) - apparently due to Pokemon cards (I won't comment further as most people would be offended by the language I might use) so I hope it hasn't been put back or something. I presume it has just been shipped and there has been an oversight, or have servitors of Vapula managed to warp SJ Games' technology in order to prevent the release of this supplement on archangels? Or would they dare to cross Evil Stevie? Chris Lee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:44:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Bright Lilim >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:36:13 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Ernest Paro" ] > >From: "Ernest Paro" >Subject: Bright Lilim >Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:35:42 PDT > >What Choir attunement does a newly redeemed Lilim get from their superior? >Do they get one of the other choir's attunements, or does the GM have to >make up a new one for them? >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:48:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Eh? At 10:29 PM +0100 7/3/00, Christopher Lee wrote: >Help clear up the weirdness on the SJ Games site please! > >There is no mention of Superiors 3 in the Just Shipped list! My sources say it's shipped. Obviously Gabriel walked through the shipping department and burned little notes reminding people to update the pages correctly. (You'ddo better to ask Kira or someone who could update the Illuminator -- I have to work through sources myself, as I telecommute from MiddleOf Nowhere NH myself. And have a baby with a firm grip on my hair right now.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:56:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Mall Horrors! At 5:34 PM -0400 7/1/00, Emily Dresner wrote: >Hi -- > >I just came back from one of the bigger malls in SE Michigan (Twelve Oaks) >and it turns out they have both a Wizards of the Coast store [..] >Was this a conscious decision to have these mall stores _not_ carry In >Nomine materials? DamifIknow. If it was, I doubt it was _SJGames'_ decision. crying baby!~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:35:21 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Bright Lilim "Ernest Paro" wrote: > >What Choir attunement does a newly redeemed Lilim get from their superior? > >Do they get one of the other choir's attunements, or does the GM have to > >make up a new one for them? Most (all? I seem to recall that David doesn't. But I could be mistaken) Archangels have their own bright lilim attunements (they're showing up in the appropriate Superiors books, and I believe they were also in Fall of the Malakim). Of course, like all redeemed demons, Lilim usually have to earn their choir attunement (some Superiors might be nice enough to give them the attunement quite quickly, but others, David, Laurence, Dominic to name three, would have to be very impressed with a redeemed demon it an attunement right of the bat). - -Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:00:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Beyond the Pale It's been kinda quiet around here, the last couple of days. Can't have that. :) As always, enjoy or don't. The contrast on this one is high, but adjust brightness to taste. Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of It's Not Nice to Fool Mother Nature There are few things that can reliably frighten any demon, and they all involve Superiors. Having the personal enmity of an Archangel (or Demon Prince) is usually a death sentence to the average celestial. Exceptions, of course, include powerful Word-bound, Dukes, those who almost never leave Hell or those few demons with genuine personal relationships with their Superiors. Those entities have very impressive implicit and explicit defenses, thus promising a reasonable level of safety. But there are two things that all non-Princes fear, no matter how protected they are. One is being targeted by Laurence's Order of the Eternal Sword. The other is to be written off as Beyond the Pale by Novalis. The reason is the same, in both cases. When it happens, all bets are off. The procedure for becoming Beyond the Pale (or Unsalvageable) is simple. All you have to do is to repeatedly demonstrate a level of depravity so vile and unrepentant that the Archangel of Flowers is forced to assume that you cannot be salvaged. Novalis, once she makes this reluctant decision, will say so at the next meeting of the Seraphim Council. Mysteriously enough, this information also quickly ends up in the hands of the appropriate Demon Prince. There are quite a few reasons why this fate is so feared. First of all, Servitors of Novalis consider any and all forms of violence (_except_ for killing a human outright) committed while in direct pursuit of an Unsalvageable "justified". Killing a human will still be dissonant, but may not be subject to further punishment. Novalis will not turn a blind eye to dissonance acquired from going against one's nature, but other Archangels might (Michael, in particular, has been known to be sympathetic to a Servitor of Flowers in this particular bind. He _likes_ it when Novalis declares someone Beyond the Pale, and is all in favor of encouraging the practice). Servitors of Flowers (with the exception of the Mercurians) usually pursue Unsalvageable with a fury that startles the unperceptive observer. The Host in general also becomes a problem for the Unsalvageable. While many Archangels find Novalis irritating, they all recognize that any demon that even _she_ can't stomach needs to be obliterated without delay. Unlike Servitors of Flowers, the rest of the Host can Smite without worries... and they do, with a heavy hand, and with a complete disregard towards any demon even remotely connected with the quarry. All arrangements, deals, tacit truces or cooperation are suspended where it conflicts with the pursuit. And, of course, if the demon in question wasn't on the Eternal Sword's list already, he/she/it is now. Lastly, the Unsalvageable can expect no aid from Hell. Whenever a demon goes Beyond the Pale, the resulting search and destroy missions invariably result in multiple Traumas, assaults on Tethers, exposure of resources and operatives, elimination of networks and disruption of plans. Any demon that aids the quarry runs a real risk of soul-death, and few are good for Earthly duty afterwards. Even Magog or Furfur would hesitate at sheltering an Unsalvageable, and never permanently. Mere demons will sell out the Unsalvageable in a heartbeat. Further, Demon Princes who have Servitors that show this level of incompetence at hiding their tracks end up looking like idiots. Demon Princes absolutely despise looking like idiots. Novalis has declared a demon as Beyond the Pale exactly six times since the Fall. She has never condemned a human or ethereal, and only one Demon Prince (Legion, although admittedly that was considered redundant). The last occasion was over a century ago, and was noteworthy both for the length of time that the demon survived (four months, two weeks and three days - the record) and for the side effects on the corporeal plane (celestial observers consider it the primary cause of the Taiping Rebellion). The savagery that resulted has made Novalis wary of further formal proclamations. This, however, only means that the next time she's forced to do this again, the demon will be _truly_ vile. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:08:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Bad Speling; or, McCoy's Canon > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 00:47:30 -0400 > From: "EDG" > Subject: IN> Bad Speling; or, McCoy's Canon > > A very bizarre thought I had while driving home, > this is a work in progress > (mainly 'cos I'm tired). Apologies to Beth. ^_^ Highly silly, disrespectful to the Establishment*, and just _begging_ to spawn pun after pun. I _loved_ it. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of If Guns are Outlawed, Can We Still Use Swords? *You're Messing with the Man here, man! Err... I mean, "Messing with the Woman here, ... non-gender-specific collection of three initials that could mean male, female, neuter or disembodied presence from Pluto for all I know because _I_ can never tell gender from somebody's writing unless they're involved in polemics which isn't happening here..." Da*n. Doesn't scan. ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:26:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> What do Superiors due with their Stuff? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:39:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What do Superiors due with their Stuff? >Which is partly why it is not defined -- it's a big >clue about how the GM views the Superior. (I mean, >think about a pocket full of happy families. No, >really, beyond the weird humor value. Think of the >Marie Celeste now. Just a little disturbed? Good; you >should be.) Err ... as a matter of fact, I am. OTOH, I suppose I'm grateful that he isn't collecting subjects of Rites, too. All that consensual sex and grumpy children would make it impossible to get any sleep while wearing the Jacket*. OTGH, you could get Glenn Miller to keep them quiet (he's in the inner pocket, along with Ambrose Bierce and all the other artists that have slipped away over the years... ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of There Must Be Some Way Out of Here, said Kobal to Valefor *What, _you'd_ take off a personal relic of Eli, even for a second? :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:31:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Genius Loci (Was: Re: IN> Just in time for the Holidays...) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:46:41 -0500From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Just in time for the Holidays... >Very cute. For a celestial version of Uncle Sam, as >the Principality of America, see http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/Settings/Principalities.bound.html >in the In Nomine Collection. >Earl Indeed. If I _had_ seen it earlier, I might not have made Sam an ethereal (in fact, I might not have bothered at all). Which reminds me: will there be stuff on Genius Loci in the EPG? Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of I'm A Man of the Land __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:33:21 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Beyond the Pale I like this, as long as it's rare. If it were more common, you'd see Princes *encouraging* demons to go for this... it'd be a distinction, of sorts. It does raise some questions. What is Heaven's official policy on demons and free will, frex? I doubt the AAs have a consistent philosophy, but this suggests that they have a consistent _response_. (Mm, is there a Celestial Ten Most Wanted list? Sounds like a job for an Elohite of Judgement somewhere...) Anyhow, this is an interesting idea, but its very rarity suggests that it's not too likely to come up in play. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:04:46 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: Genius Loci (Was: Re: IN> Just in time for the Holidays...) From: "Maurice Lane" > > Indeed. If I _had_ seen it earlier, I might not have > made Sam an ethereal (in fact, I might not have > bothered at all). In that case, I'm deliriously happy that you didn't see it first. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:26:40 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Eh? At 06:48 PM 03/07/00 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >My sources say it's shipped. Obviously Gabriel walked through the >shipping department and burned little notes reminding people to >update the pages correctly. Check the Illuminator tomorrow for the explanation about what happened. - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:40:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... Weird. I seem to be on a Novalis jag lately. This stuff is a little low-contrast, low-brightness, so at least I'm not being driven by my usual relentless optimism... :) Enjoy, don't enjoy, tell me to stop rambling. Morgan Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Wide Open Playing Field, Baby Sample Organizations of Flowers Progenitors These angels are old: some of them were Word-bound before the Fall. Their original tasks involved the nurturing and direction of Earth's early ecosystem, and they still watch over various aspects of the ecology. Younger Progenitors are either angels that wish to serve Novalis' Word as it relates to plants, or else actual children of other Progenitors (this group is possibly the only one in Heaven that has recognizable family structures). As a group, Progenitors tend to see their Superior with less adoration than the norm. It's not that they don't love her: it's more that her position of authority is considered to be a political necessity rather than a moral imperative. After all, any of the plant-aligned Word-Bound could have ended up with the title of Archangel (at least, according to the Progenitor's collective opinion. Novalis just smiles and nods), back then. Most of Novalis' other Servitors consider them ... odd. Progenitors are far less humanocentric than other Servitors of Flowers are, and quite a few of them don't _like_ humanity very much. They are quite vocal in their disapproval about mortals' relentless expansion across the earth, and links with certain of Jordi's more militant Servitors are both ubiquitous and openly acknowledged. However, the most senior Progenitors are contemporaries of Novalis herself, and their respect and loyalty to her has so far prevented any actively disloyal measures. For now, the Progenitors do nothing more active than watch mankind with inhuman patience and unblinking eyes. For now. Pesticide Sometimes, it's hard to be a Servitor of an Archangel that draws the line at killing humans. Most Servitors understand Novalis' reasoning on the uses of violence, and agree with her: if they didn't, they would switch Superiors. And, truthfully, not being allowed to kill or maim for God is usually all for the best. Still, there can be a particular human that just doesn't get it. No matter how hard you try to reach him, no matter how much love and understanding you foster, he just keeps going along, hurting or killing people. You can't sit by and let him do it, and you can't end his life. Servitors above a certain level of experience know that there are ... places. The place could be in the Glade, or in a Tether, or even a bar or regular celestial hangout on Earth. You go to this place, and you just ... complain. You complain about the person that's making your job impossible, and how that person is an active, knowing and uncaring danger to those around him. Then you go away and never vent about that particular human again. Sometimes nothing happens. Sometimes they find a greedy corporate president stuffed into a barrel of his own illegally - dumped toxic waste. Either way, it's not like you actually ... _caused_ anything, is it? There's nothing wrong with venting to your friends, after all. You don't _know_ that somebody was listening at that particular spot, and taking careful notes. And you certainly never asked to have someone _killed_... The membership of what is called (whispered, really) "Pesticide" by Servitors of Novalis is secret. Secret from everyone, frankly, presumably including Novalis. It is unlikely that Servitors of Flowers do the actual wet work, due to the stringent penalties. It is also unlikely that the group is organized. The most likely scenario involves several Servitors of Flowers with regular duties on Earth and a good relationship with Servitors of other Words (Fire, the Wind, and War are the usual suspects). He or she would hear, through the grapevine, of a suitable "prospect", mention it in passing to a friend, and then drop the matter. Perhaps the matter would be addressed, and perhaps not. That ambiguity helps to keep down the dissonance. It's inconceivable that Novalis doesn't know about all of this. Certainly, when she catches one of her Servitors doing this, Novalis yanks that angel off Earth duty immediately and keeps an eye on his or her favorite hangouts. However, usually the disgraced angel has no idea who else may be involved, and she can hardly call in Servitors of other Words for questioning, especially since they've done nothing wrong (in their Superior's opinion). She certainly keeps trying to root out this conspiracy, though: if they want to kill humans, they will _not_ do it while in her service, and to keep on Earth those too weak to serve her Word is sadistic. It's also clear that, no matter what they may say, there's at least one Archangel that secretly encourages the members of Pesticide ... or at least turns a blind eye to the odd assistants to his Tethers that crop up from time to time. As usual, Michael is the most popular suspect, but any other Archangel besides Eli, and possibly Dominic, could be responsible. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1698 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.