From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 6 00:04:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07548 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 00:04:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA24060 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:54:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:54:01 -0500 Message-Id: <200007060454.XAA24060@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1700 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1700 In this digest: Re: IN> Shards Re: IN> Idea (the one for this year!) Re: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question Re: IN> Shards Re: IN> Shards Re: IN> New Distinction Re: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question Re: IN> Idea (the one for this year!) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1699 Re: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question Re: IN> Bad Speling; or, McCoy's Canon Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. IN> Concerning Novalis Re: IN> Running Ads Re: IN> Fwd: Bright Lilim Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. Re: IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. IN> Stuff about Novalis IN> ebay in nomine IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything IN> Yves & Kronos (WAS: A theory on the nature of God...) IN> The Metatron IN> Mood Bombs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 21:05:07 +1000 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Re: IN> Shards >> his nascent madness. The Lucifer that God created (henceforth referred >> to as "Lucifer Prime") is no more. The largest shard, a Balseraph, > >Lucifer Prime and his arch-foe, the Metatron. If anyone's interested I'll post a writeup I did of Metatron, Demon Prince of Mech once, where I actually managed to tie in an awful lot of both biblical (and IN) references and Transformer backstory (from the comics) Kris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 08:55:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Idea (the one for this year!) Christopher Lee wrote: > Humans with 6+ Forces can perceive the Symphony, correct? No. They also have to have a Symphonic awakening. 6+ Forces doesn't automatically make you Symphonically aware. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 10:55:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question Douglas Muir wrote: > > What are the limits on the object of a Cherub's (or Djinn's) resonance? > > Could a Cherub resonate on a _big_ object or animal, like a whale > or a jumbo jet? (I'd say yes) No argument. > What about locations? A house (IMO yes again)? A beach? > A forest? Surely, senechals of tethers do something very like this, so I'd say yes. > How about resonating on a group of things as one... a school of > fish, an anthill? Could an Celestial attune to a corporation? -- > Don't laugh; they're "persons" under human law. For the animal collections, maybe, since Kyrios can possess such collections as if they were single objects. I'd say it'd be more likely for a collection of animals where individuality is very low -- like the examples given. A wolf-pack is just as much a family of individuals as is a human family. Could a cherub attune to a whole family? Dunno. But if there is an Angel of Families, then THOSE cherubim probably can. Likewise, the cherubim of Marc and the djinn of Mammon could probably attune to corporations. > Teensy weensy things? This actually came up IMC! "Okay, I'm > going to try resonating on the virus." "You mean, on the vial > of virus?" "No, the virus." I don't see why not, though you might make it a condition that the cherub/djinn be able to pick out the individual in question, which would require an electron microscope in the case of a virus ... which in turn has a very bad effect on the individual virus. (But then, if the cherub works for the Angel of Microbes, it might well have celestial micro-vision.) > Virtual things? I'd say *no*, but with mmmmaybe an exception for > the appropriate Superior's servitors. I'd go along with the exceptions for appropriate Superiors. Of course, it becomes tricky deciding what's "damage" for the attuned. Is a commercial damaged when someone hits the mute button on their TV remote? Is an email damaged when it's deleted after being duly read? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:26:16 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Shards From: > > > >Lucifer Prime and his arch-foe, the Metatron. > > If anyone's interested I'll post a writeup I did of Metatron, Demon Prince of Mech once, where I actually managed to tie in an awful lot of both biblical (and IN) references and Transformer backstory (from the comics) I have to see this as soon as possible. GIMME! ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:38:27 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Shards > I have to see this as soon as possible. GIMME! ;;;) Yeah, I'd be happy to see that too! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:50:50 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> New Distinction At 21:47 -0400 7/1/00, EDG wrote: > has it been determined that superiors get the powers of the distinctions >that they offer? I think there's a canon statement somewhere to the effect that Superiors can use all the Choir and Servitor Attunements they grant. I see distinctions as simply Servitor Attunements with special rank/duties attached, so I'd say yes. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:05:20 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question At 23:23 -0400 7/2/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >What are the limits on the object of a Cherub's (or Djinn's) resonance? > >Could a Cherub resonate on a _big_ object or animal, like a whale or a >jumbo jet? (I'd say yes) I'd definitely say yes on this one. >What about locations? A house (IMO yes again)? A beach? A forest? Also yes, I think. But it's dangerous for Cherubim, at least. And there's probably not much point in it for Djinn. (Well, there's not much point to *anything* for Djinn, but I mean less than usual for a use of resonance. OK, so the forest is about to be destroyed by a fire. So?) >How about resonating on a group of things as one... a school of fish, an >anthill? Getting iffy, here. Most likely yes when the entity is some kind of hive organism -- an ant or bee colony, maybe a coral. Least likely to work for groups of essentially independent creatures in a social organization. > Could an Celestial attune to a corporation? -- Don't laugh; >they're "persons" under human law. I'd say no, in general. This type is subject to Word-related exceptions e.g., Marc for corportations, a herd of animals (Jordi), or a local-area network (Jean). >Teensy weensy things? This actually came up IMC! "Okay, I'm going to try >resonating on the virus." "You mean, on the vial of virus?" "No, the >virus." That's difficult to do, when touch is required to attune. If the character went through the necessary difficulties to do the attunment process, I don't see why it shouldn't work. I wouldn't want to be a Cherub attuned to a single virus, though -- they're pretty fragile.... >Virtual things? I'd say *no*, but with mmmmaybe an exception for the >appropriate Superior's servitors. Agreed. Again, you'd also need some way to meet the "touch" requirement. A Word-based exception might be one way. > And perhaps a Cherub of Jean could do a piece of software or a >packet. Do you have any idea what happens to packets inside the network? ("Oh no! My attuned is headed into a ATM network and is being shredded!") - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:20:37 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Idea (the one for this year!) At 18:54 -0400 7/4/00, Christopher Lee wrote: >Humans with 6+ Forces can perceive the Symphony, correct? Only if they're naturally aware of the Symphony, somehow -- that's separate from just having the Forces. 6+ Forces is a prerequisite for hearing the Symphony (at least for humans), but not necessarily sufficient. > No doubt those who do not have this explained to them are probably going to be unsure as to what it is, and it might just be a niggling feeling that they keep picking up 'vibes' or ethereal music at the edge of their perception. I believe this strongly parallels the description of the Children of the Grigori in the main book. And where the CoG proto-canon now is, I think they're the ones most likely to fit this profile (6+ Forces and Symphonically Aware). In fact, anyone who fits the description may *be* a Child of the Grigori. The current canon and proto-canon makes them full humans, to the best of my knowledge, and not particularly distinguishable from "normal" humans, except for their enhanced connection to the Symphony. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1699 Date: 4 Jul 2000 13:13:41 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... On Mon, 03 July 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: >> Weird. I seem to be on a Novalis jag lately. This >> stuff is a little low-contrast, low-brightness, so >> at least I'm not being driven by my usual relentless >> optimism... :) >Hey Beth, has an author for the Novalis expanded >writeup been found? >Because if not, I wanna nominate Maurice here. - - -- Casca I'm flattered, but I suspect that the slot has already been filled ... and Lord knows I don't even have a Pyramid credit to my name. :) Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:07:03 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question At 11:23 PM -0400 7/2/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >What are the limits on the object of a Cherub's (or Djinn's) resonance? First, he has to be attuned... >Could a Cherub resonate on a _big_ object or animal, like a whale or a >jumbo jet? (I'd say yes) Definitely. >What about locations? A house (IMO yes again)? A beach? A forest? House, yes. Beach.... Probably. Forest -- probably, though I might well require him to touch several trees within it, or spend some time walking through it. >How about resonating on a group of things as one... a school of fish, an >anthill? Could an Celestial attune to a corporation? -- Don't laugh; >they're "persons" under human law. Ehhhhhhhhh..... Can you _touch_ a school of fish? Or all the ants in an anthill? Or "a corporeation"? The anthill is the most likely one, I'd say -- ants are so... integrated. A school of fish might break apart into many different fish at any moment. >Teensy weensy things? This actually came up IMC! "Okay, I'm going to try >resonating on the virus." "You mean, on the vial of virus?" "No, the >virus." Only if the Cherub were able to touch and attune to the single virus -- which would require a teensy weensy vessel... >Virtual things? I'd say *no*, but with mmmmaybe an exception for the >appropriate Superior's servitors. So _perhaps_ a Djinn of the Media could >resonate on a TV commercial or some such... he'd know whenever it was being >broadcast. And perhaps a Cherub of Jean could do a piece of software or a >packet. I'm not sure I'd allow either of those, personally. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:07:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bad Speling; or, McCoy's Canon At 12:47 AM -0400 7/1/00, EDG wrote: >A very bizarre thought I had while driving home, this is a work in progress >(mainly 'cos I'm tired). Apologies to Beth. ^_^ This derives from me being >frustrated that people can't figure out the difference between canon and >cannons: That's okay, it's amusing... Though I'd call it Elizabethean Spelling, myself. Or Spellying or something else that looks like Granny Weatherwax penned it... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:52:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. Date: 4 Jul 2000 19:35:11 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. On Tue, 04 July 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: >>b, what exactly _is_ the relationship between this >>list and submitting things for publication in Pyramid >>and SJG in general? Does anything ending up here >>count as "previously published", and if so, does it >>become invalidated for later revision and selling? >>The people I've asked didn't know*. :| >I'm not a lawyer. However, I seem to recall hearing >that the mailing list and its archives are the >property of SJGames, but the actual work is >copyrighted to the authors. So while it probably >counts as being previously published, it's still in >an SJG-owned forum. Ahh. Much now explained. >> *I ask because I revised my ethereal Uncle Sam, >I was planning on including that in the next update, >but if you'd like I can hold off on it until you hear >back from Pyramid. If they publish it, wonderful. If >not, send me the expanded writeup (or post it, >whatever) and it'll get on the INC. Deal? Deal. :) >Speaking of Kosher, who would you have as the Angel >of the Kashrut? I'm thinking Seraph of Judgement.... >- -- Casca Elohite of ... hmm, who _is_ the Superior most interested in medicine? Jean? Novalis? David? Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:05:08 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. At 20:13 -0400 7/4/00, Maurice Lane wrote: [re INC] >a, can I assume that posting something here is >sufficient notification that I want it to be >considered for there, too? It'll make my life easier; There's a specific legal notice relative to SJGames' (and participants') copyright interests for posts here, in the "welcome to the list" message; I don't recall the details, but I don't think it mentions the INC in any way. In fact, I believe the INC is unofficial in the sense that it's not directly an activity of SJGames, but a "fannish" activity which SJGames supports by providing web hosting space. (At least, there's a disclaimer roughly to that effect on the links page of the official web site.) So there's probably no "official" policy on the matter, other than whatever copyright rights the poster retains according to the "welcome" message. >b, what exactly _is_ the relationship between this >list and submitting things for publication in Pyramid >and SJG in general? Does anything ending up here >count as "previously published", and if so, does it >become invalidated for later revision and selling? The >people I've asked didn't know*. :| I don't think this list differs from any other net "publication" in this respect, except that putting something on this list *does* give SJGames certain rights to the material (most notably, as I recall, a right of use for dissemination (required to legally operate the mailing list and the archives, I believe), and the compilation copyright on the list archives; I think there's also a general "right of use" in there). My recollection is that "net published" material *is* considered prior publication, generally meaning Pyramid won't take it. In actual fact, I suspect there are degrees of prior publication, and that something that appeared here first and then was submitted to Pyramid in a substantially reworked and updated form would be OK. But it's always the editor's call on that. For something that appeared in another magazine or e-zine, I'd guess they wouldn't take it at all unless it was almost entirely new material. And even then there might be problems. I know that SJGames *has* taken material at times from public forums they supported and used it in publications. To the best of my knowledge, they've always tried to ask author permission to do this, even if they had a notice of "right of use" in the forum. (I know SJ takes copyright rights very seriously -- both his own and those of others.) Whether there's payment involved seems to vary with the amount of material. If *you* publish something here (or self-publish it elsewhere on the web), and then submit it later as part of a book for SJGames, I think that's generally OK, as long as it isn't the majority of the material, and you are the creator. Taking someone *else's* material, and using it without permission, is a definite no-no, with the possible exception of something posted in a public forum owned by SJGames (and with their "right of use" notice), and even then they'll normally want the creator contacted for permission, if at all possible. >*I ask because I revised my ethereal Uncle Sam, tacked >on some suggestions for play and an adventure seed, >and sent it off as a topical Supporting Cast >submission. Of course, I explicitly informed the >Pyramid editor that the character writeup appeared >here first, That's a good policy, and good professional courtesy. And if it were a majorly expanded and re-worked piece based on something you posted or web-published, it's still a good idea to mention that. (I don't know if it's *required* that you do so, but it's definitely good professional courtesy.) > so I won't be surprised if it gets tossed >for that reason. I wouldn't, either, but it might still be acceptible, with the rework and expansion. I think the editorial questions in a case like this are "will the readers benefit from the new version, even if they've seen it before?" and "will most of the potential audience have seen it before?" I should note that all of the above is unofficial -- just what I've learned from dealing with SJGames over the years. Some of it may also include some confusion from pre-Berne Convention copyright law -- things used to be a bit different with regard to implicit copyright vs. "released to public domain". Some of the events I'm drawing from are probably from before the time the US copyright law aligned with Berne. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:06:06 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: IN> Concerning Novalis All right, my two pennies worth. Does one imagine Michael ever fleeing personally from a battle, without severe trauma to his personality, nature, and Word? Or Laurence acting less than honourably in person? Or David ever attacking first? For the same reasons, Novalis never gives up on a person. Ever. Just as the other Archangels symbolise different Words and different aspects, she stands for eternal forgiveness and mercy and love, the love which goes beyond human understanding, the forgiveness which really _can_ forgive and pardon anything and everything, however cruel, however evil, and however "unforgivable". And she believes it works and will continue to work. She _knows_, in the way that every Wordbound _knows_ about their Word, that one day everyone will be forgiven and will accept that forgiveness, that love will conquer all, and that every demon will be Redeemed and light from Heaven will fill the entire universe and all beings will praise God and glorify his name in joy and love. It's infuriating. She (and to a lesser extent, her angels) really do honestly forgive people for their sins. She means it when she says, "All right, it's over now, I forgive you, let's start again and make things better." She gives other angels (and Archangels) one of her _looks_, because they won't give someone that second chance -- or that hundred and second chance. After all, you can always try again. Flowers never, ever give up. They keep on pushing, they keep on working, they keep on transforming until the day that the grey concrete is broken in a thousand places and covered with colour and life. Her angels go out into the world and try and fix problems wherever they find them. The angel of Destiny may be meditating on his ward's ultimate future, but the angel of Flowers is going to go out there and make sure that everyone has enough food, and a decent place to live, and isn't suffering, and then . . . well, then we'll see what else needs fixing. This can be hard for humans to understand or accept. Very few of us have that boundless depth and capacity for compassion. But angels can, and certainly Novalis does. There is no boundary on love, and there is no end to forgiveness. Even if, with the greatest of sorrow, a demon's physical body may have to be put to death on Earth to prevent more harm to other people -- and only _after_ the kind approach has been tried, probably several times -- nobody is unsalvageable, ever, not even the Princes, not even Lucifer himself. Novalis will always reach out to them, and give them that thousandth chance, however many times she has been hurt, waiting for the time when they will honestly say, "I was wrong, and I am sorry," and turn to the light. Two quotes: "There is a limit to human charity," said Lady Outram, trembling all over. "There is," said Father Brown dryly; "and that is the real difference between human charity and Christian charity. You must forgive me that I was not altogether crushed by your contempt for my uncharitableness today; or by the lectures you read me about pardon for every sin. For it seems to me that you only pardon the sins that you don't really think sinful. You only forgive criminals when they commit what you don't regard as crimes, but rather as conventions. So you tolerate a conventional duel, just as you tolerate a conventional divorce. You forgive because there isn't anything to be forgiven." (GK Chesterton, _Father Brown : The Chief Mourner of Marne_) And : "What a lovely thing a rose is! [. . .] There is nothing in which deduction is so necessary as in religion," said he, leaning with his back against the shutters. "It can be built up as an exact science by the reasoner. Our highest assurance of the goodness of Providence seems to me to rest in the flowers. All other things, our powers, our desires, our food, are really necessary for our existence in the first instance. But this rose is an extra. Its smell and its colour are an embellishment of life, not a condition of it. It is only goodness which gives extras, and so I say again that we have much to hope from the flowers." Sherlock Holmes, _The Naval Treaty_, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle - --- Genevieve Cogman - --- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:45:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Running Ads At 2:35 AM -0700 7/5/00, Jo Hart wrote: >Any chance of putting up some spot or banner ads on some of the other online >RPG ezines other than Pyramid. I can't think that it would be all that >expensive to run some ads on rpg.net or wounds unlimited ... According to my sources (who might be flogged out into the light if absolutely necessary on this one), "We're looking into doing precisely that; in fact, we're just waiting on rate sheets from several of those sites." - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:47:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Bright Lilim At 5:35 PM -0700 7/3/00, Ryan Elias wrote: >"Ernest Paro" wrote: >> >What Choir attunement does a newly redeemed Lilim get from their superior? >> >Do they get one of the other choir's attunements, or does the GM have to >> >make up a new one for them? > >Most (all? I seem to recall that David doesn't. But I could be mistaken) >Archangels have their own Bright Lilim attunements (they're showing up >in the appropriate Superiors books, and I believe they were also in Fall >of the Malakim). All. The major SUperior ones did indeed appear in FotM. Minor Superiors, such as Khalid, get theirs added in normally. >Of course, like all redeemed demons, Lilim usually have to earn their >Choir Attunement [...] Yup. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:02:04 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. > >Speaking of Kosher, who would you have as the Angel > >of the Kashrut? I'm thinking Seraph of Judgement.... > >- -- Casca > >Elohite of ... hmm, who _is_ the Superior most >interested in medicine? Nah. it should be an angel of purity -- maybe even Uriel himself. Kosher/Kashrut _means_ purity. The opposite to kosher is treif, which means foul. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:01:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... At 1:13 PM -0700 7/4/00, Casca wrote: >On Mon, 03 July 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > >> Weird. I seem to be on a Novalis jag lately. This >> stuff is a little low-contrast, low-brightness, so at >> least I'm not being driven by my usual relentless >> optimism... :) > >Hey Beth, has an author for the Novalis expanded writeup been found? >Because if not, I wanna nominate Maurice here. Not making any firm decisions at this point, talk to me later, I'll let it be known when, I just file all this stuff in the back of my head and let it goop around. (Also, at one point I was going to make a bid for the Flowers-babe, and therefore have a part-written manuscript I'd want to share with Whoever Was Chosen and do a little, "Okay, slash that, but I really liked that part so if you could work it in" kind of stuff. (This was, natch, written long and long before I got the LE* hat.) Just so it be known that I have some Ideas about her at this time.) *LE stands for Line Editor. It also stands for Lawful Evil. At the same time. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:59:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. At 5:13 PM -0700 7/4/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Let me reiterate, here. I'm _not_ complaining. It >was just that I noticed that, in my last net-dive >through the INC, that my little bit on Novalis' >motivations made it in. > >Now, I have no objections to it being there, mind, and >I'm pleased as punch that it made the cut. What I'm >just curious about is: > >a, can I assume that posting something here is >sufficient notification that I want it to be >considered for there, too? It'll make my life easier; Technically, the maintainer of the INC should be asking the appropriate authors, and if they say "no," respecting that. Sometimes this gets skipped in the assumption that people _want_ their moment of INC fame. (So far, I don't think anyone's said no.) Nevertheless, I wave the Rolled Up Newspaper at EDG. O:> The INC is _unofficial_, for all that it is hosted at the sjgames site, and putting things there should not be considered the same as the digest. You can, of course, do a global "I want my stuff there!" at the INC maintainer du jour. Or a "feel free" on every message, or a "don't send this one to the INC, till I hear back from pyramid" or wahtever. >b, what exactly _is_ the relationship between this >list and submitting things for publication in Pyramid >and SJG in general? Does anything ending up here >count as "previously published", and if so, does it >become invalidated for later revision and selling? The >people I've asked didn't know*. :| It's a gray area. The Bright Lilim attunements appeared on the INC, and made it to FotM, because, well, I couldn't think of anything better and they're such a small part of that book... The more of a work that appears in public, the less happy SJGames gets, I think is teh rule of thumb. As for Pyramid, ask Steven Marsh. O:> Now, say, uyou've written this writeup of, well, maybe Novalis, for arguement's sake. O:> I'd far rather it were an abbreviated version, of 5-10 pages, with a URL that could be quietly and discreetly taken down if, say, you won approval of the authorship of the real thing -- than have A 30-page opus posted entire, in installments, to this list or the pyraboards. See also what Walter said -- it's more coherent and he didn't have a baby trying to decide if she were awake or asleep through it... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 14:54:04 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Stuff about Novalis I do *like* these. Both of them. But especially Pesticide. That's the Malakite in me coming out. Unlike Beyond The Pale, this is something that standard PCs *could* be involved in, from either side (Novalis's or the nameless Archangel's). And I don't see why you eliminated Dominic from the list of suspects -- I can see him doing this very easily. I can even see it as evidence that he has a sense of humor. Janet Anderson ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:47:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ebay in nomine grumpy baby, nothing to do for it but rock & sing -- and surf. Here, for anyone who wants to complete a collection but doesn't want to pay full price. (At about $2-7, Night Music becomes a pretty good deal!) IN mainbook, sometimes cheap: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370378265 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=372079153 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=374362948 Other books: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370382273 (FotM) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370383860 (IPG) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370385111 (LiberS) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370386514 (CPG) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370452143 (Sup1) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370453883 (Sup2) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=374363265 (GMscreen) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=374363540 (NightMusic) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=374363866 (Marches) The Marches (@~$3) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=371507245 Night Music, starting at ~$2 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=371511429 This has been a publc service announ cement iolant he pl ease take your foot off mo mmy's keybo ard... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:22:17 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything I always liked the idea of Lucifer shards idea though I personally wouldn't use them in my game, in my opinion they made a good excuse for the Malakim and Kronos. Whenever a Angel represses some aspect of his essential nature-an equal and opposite reaction is made in the Symphony. Following this train of thought I managed to get a rather strange view of the universe... In my opinion this basically flows like this.... 1:) Like all truths-the belief that angels are an extension of God is partially true or at least has some sembelance in fact-otherwise people wouldn't believe it. In order to deal with the ordering of the world or perhaps because he wanted various perspectives of it....God gave sentience to Yves-the Will of God given life. He then created Lucifer-his new ideas and inspirations given Life (an addition to Yves), and Michael his Actions given life.... (basically God's will exists to do Good-how to do good is done by Lucifer-Michael puts it into effect) God started giving life to his other aspects in hope of continuing his little Celestial Bureacracy with some degree of consistancy but like all corporations-intra office feuding became inevitable as it all was struggling for God's attention (probably the biggest aspect of God left). All in all rather similar to the Lucifer fragment theory. Inevitably Lucifer (some people may find it odd that God created his actions before his thoughts on it-but in retrospect-it explains alot) analyzed the system and believed he could do better without Yves and designed his own universe-free from Yves will. In other words-he wished to be the driving aspect of God's celestial body. We know how that turned out. Indeed it may be possible the cosmos actually is in all truth just different aspects of God's dreams as Blandine believes and certain Hindu sects (plus Plato). Heaven is the Superego of God, Hell is the Id, the Ethereal Planes is his subconcious, and the Earth is where he's resolving his conflicting issues. Angels are his higher concepts, and humans are his neurons....Existence may just be a big experiment by God to resolve exactly what the truth of life, the universe, everything is... Now that we know it's forty-two one wonders what he'll do next. 2:) We all know about "subtext"-that part of the nature of Words where a word is to broad to encompass something and a superior delegates it down to his followers to handle. Like Igneous rock or Concrete for David. This basically holds with the God concept as angels brought forth by their superiors are in actuality-subdivisions of their superiors like God....however unlike with God they can become superior than their creators by associating with other concepts.... Still creation by this work may not actually be concious.... When Lucifer repressed his ability to feel empathy, compassion, pity, and remorse he created Uriel. Other Malakim that follow were created by other demons which did such a thing....though a large number indeed are the Lightbringer's spirit. This is why Malakim cannot fall...they are an expression of a single soul against an aspect of another soul. Indeed they might actually be the incarnation of a demon's guilt given life....among other things. Explaining why THEY *ARE* so violent against the demons. Uriel probably saw the Marches as a personal reflection of the Dissodance his soul caused and sought to purify them-though this was all unconcious. 3:) Kronos in the Book of Superiors 3 (YES! I finally got my copy) in my opinion is an example of what Yves has suppressed about his nature-the subtle admittance that God must allow humanity to suffer, feel pain, and make mistakes in order to strengthen their spirits. His being a Balseraph is only dramatic irony-Yves is denying the truth that disease, fear, and storms are all things that are not evil but willingly embraced by humanity to make life all the more precacious. Ironically Yves took this Destiny opinion because of his fright of Lucifer's doings too I think. Thus a disturbing nature of Balance exists that might actually be truely proving that everything in the universe is going according to God's plan. Lucifer might have been actually acting according to God's will....which is a scary thought.... (probably Elohim are the only ones who truly examine this kind of belief system) 4:) This theory has ramifications for Words as it literally holds that you and the aspect of God that is the word you request are made as one....and destroying you actually might shatter God's hold and perception on the concept....making the war potentially extremely tragic (if it wasn't enough already). On the other hand this might merely reflect God "cleaning house" of outdated concepts needing a new perspective (and new word holder). Humans who enter the higher planes likely are made even more transcendant than angels...but exactly how is a mystery to me. Any ideas feel free to e-mail me... 5:) Thsu the nature of the war isn't so much a war but setting God's house (his soul in it's entirety) in order in which thus nothing is ever destroyed but changed for the best. A very tempestial and chaotic change in a sea of struggle. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:19:17 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: IN> Yves & Kronos (WAS: A theory on the nature of God...) At 10:22 PM -0400 07/05/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >3:) Kronos [...] His being a Balseraph [...] Incorrect. The "Belief" amongst the majority (everyone, save Yves, Lucifer and maybe Gabriel), is that he is a Balseraph. In reality, he represents everything Yves is not. He is much the same as Yves, in every manner. Where Yves represents God's optimistic and positive point of view, Kronos is God's doubt and negativity. >Ironically Yves took this Destiny opinion because of his fright of Lucifer's >doings too I think. Yves chose Destiny, because that is what he has always been. (In fact, the only reason both Destiny and Fate come across as being totally enigmatic, is that their revelations would invalidate Freedom of Will -- This would therefore end the Grand Experiment, before it's even half-baked.) >Thus a disturbing nature of Balance exists that might actually be truely >proving that everything in the universe is going according to God's plan. >Lucifer might have been actually acting according to God's will....which is >a scary thought.... Yeah, you never know. (Also, you cannot have light, without casting shadows to create darkness. Without the darkness, there would only be the light and nothing else. Good cannot exist without evil, and without evil there is no good. The scary thought is that God exists as a higher version of humanity [capable of both selfless and selfish thoughts], playing his copy of SimHeaven with our lives. . .) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:44:06 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Metatron Okay could somebody please fill me in on the Seraph or Olfalim Voice of God here? (He was both a pillar of flame and the speaker of God's truth so it's a tough call-though I think cannonically he's a Seraph...or was til Lucifer offed him) Exactly when did Lucifer kill the poor boy and what was his word? So far on the latter end I've heard the Covenant, the Voice of God, and Truth. Was he like the Khalid to Judaism or is that Michael? Some thoughts on this would be appreciated as his replacement will be turning up in the story that I'm running fairly soon (beware ye forces of hell the three headed serpent) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Mood Bombs This one came to me on the train ride home. Sorry if it's a little disjointed: I've been out serving the Words of Movies, Beer and Chicken Tenders... :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Shaft, Baby Mood Bombs Vapula recognizes that his fellow Punishers are marvelous tools for implementing the will of God, of course, but even he realizes that their ... passions ... can sometimes get in the way of their mission. Luckily for them, he's worked out a tool that can help them do their work without repercussions. Well, "luckily" is a relative term. More on this later. A Mood Bomb resembles a glass orb about the size of an egg. It has the unique ability to actually absorb Habbalite emotions, and keep them indefinitely. To use, the Habbalite must first invoke his or her resonance, specifically directing the emotions into the Bomb. This attempt at using a resonance will always succeed, unless a Divine Intervention is rolled. Only Habbalah may charge a Mood Bomb. Once this is done, breaking the Bomb causes the closest target to immediately suffer from the emotion, automatically, with a check digit equal to the Habbalite's Ethereal Forces. The bomb may have up to six emotions charged into it. Adding the same emotion several times increases the range (1 yard for 2 charges of the same emotions, doubling for each additional emotional state of the same type): adding different emotions causes the target to experience very odd mood swings. The Bombs are (by their nature) very fragile: a successful attack targeted at them will break them automatically. Habbalah are no more immune to the effects of a Mood Bomb then anyone else. Despite this little bug, Mood Bombs can allow a Habbalite to reliably avoid backlash (and thus dissonance). One would think that these artifacts would be ubiquitous, instead of extremely rare. In fact, Habbalites avoid using them except in emergencies, as they have a very bad reputation. Strictly speaking, they shouldn't: Vapula has actually come up with a workable, safe gadget this time. Unfortunately, Jean found out about this project early on, and managed to sabotage the production runs… Sabotaged Mood Bombs have had crucial parts of the "software" that controls the absorption of emotions altered. A Habbalite that uses a sabotaged Mood Bomb must make a Perception Roll or else charge all of his or her emotions into it: this is, incidentally, entirely identical to suffering from the emotional state of Emptiness. Worse, feedback circuits drastically enhance the user's pleasure circuits, resulting in physical dependency (treat as a highly-addictive, tough-withdrawal Addiction: see p 125-126 of the CPG for details). Worst of all, someone who consistently uses sabotaged Mood Bombs will find themselves drawn to such weak (to a Punisher) Discords as Selfless or Merciful. Sabotaged Mood Bombs show up at GM fiat: those with a twisted sense of humor or honor may choose to roll each time one is deployed (a roll of 1 or 2 on a d6 sounds about right). Even Vapula doesn't suspect direct Angelic interference: after all, the success rate isn't noticeably lower than his other creations... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1700 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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