From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 6 15:48:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24430 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:48:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA06391 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:45:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:45:10 -0500 Message-Id: <200007062045.PAA06391@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1701 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1701 In this digest: Re: IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything IN> Hardbacks Re: IN> Hardbacks Re: IN> Hell TV Re: IN> Shards Re: IN> The Metatron Re: IN> The Metatron IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles Re: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles Re: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles Re: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question Re: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles Re: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything Re: IN> Hardbacks Re: IN> The Metatron Re: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles Re: IN> The Metatron Re: IN> Hardbacks Re: IN> The Metatron Re: IN> The Metatron Re: IN> The Metatron IN> Adventure Seed: Face/off Re: IN> The Metatron Re: IN> Hardbacks Re: IN> Hardbacks Re: IN> The Metatron Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> Hell TV Re: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 21:57:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 01:19:11 -0400From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... >(we won't even mention the ancient, and very >peculiar, Angel of Fungus). Ooh! Ooh! Tell us about the Angel of Fungus! :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Bizarre But Entertaining Word-Bound Writeups __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 00:02:44 -0500 From: "James Bearse & Brandy Badenoch" Subject: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Just got my GURPS:IN copy, and wanted to comment. I really appreciated the revised flavor text at the beginning of the choir/band sections. Even though they were mostly rewrites of the originals, the change in focus from the outside observer to the angel/demon's perspective made a real change. It brought home a bit more what it _feels_ like to use a resonance, what goes through a Balseraph's mind as she twists the Symphony to her whims, what it's like to have a Shedite lurking in your hindbrain. If/when I ever get to run IN, I'll definitely show those paragraphs to my players, and I would recommend them for inclusion in any IN revision or new edition that ever gets put to paper. Kudos, Beth. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 01:45:12 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything About humans who reach the higher plains. I've always ran it that they add to a big ol' mess of resources (Forces, Essence and all) that is God. God is between all of them, as more souls join God he can pay more attention to more things and can bring more power to bear. Angels are partly tied into this network, which is what provided God with power before humans. This makes God a being totally ouside of celestial understanding. He operates on his own plain of existance. Demons, hell and damned souls are outside of it. Dissonant demons start getting 'infected' (Lucifer's terminology) by God. This is why Hell creeps out angels, they are getting the connection fuzzied. The Lower Hells is completly inoculated against God, it is a defiance of God. Lucifer hopes to immunize enough beings to God that there will be another force created, an anti-God. If the pattern that forms the basis of such a being, or channels the power of such happens to be Lucifer well then all the better. God in this system came out of reality, the first bits of order. Yves represents that moment when the first Destiny was achieved, entropy was overcome. When the first major Fate of the universe was met (most likely the full inocculation of the lower hells) Kronos was created, the portion of God that was un-Goded. Kronos wishes to un-God everything, which would mean his ultimate destruction as he is merely a messed up portion of the God infection. Now I have to go dodge the Inquisition. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 21:18:54 -0400 From: Bull Subject: IN> Hardbacks Hi there! I'm new to the list and fairly new to In Nomine, though i'm gaming now with a couple guys who've been playing since it first came out. Anyways, I was just interested in seeing if I could get some info on the In Nomine Hardbacks that were done when the game first came out. I know they were a limited edition, but do we know how many of these were printed, and in general how hard they are to find now and how much they usually go for? The twins in my group have one of each, the Black and White versions, but the one (The white) is gettinga bit beat up from use (They didn't buy a paperback version as a "user" copy, of course :)), so he's looking to replace it, and I'd love to get a copy of the "Demon" version (The black and red one). I'm more inclined towards the Angelics side of things, but Black and Red are my colors :] Bull _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 02:23:31 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Hardbacks At 09:18 PM 05/07/00 -0400, Bull wrote: >Anyways, I was just interested in seeing if I could get some info on >the In >Nomine Hardbacks that were done when the game first came out. I know they >were a limited edition, but do we know how many of these were printed, and >in general how hard they are to find now and how much they usually go for? Good luck, and a king's ransom. Unless you get extremely lucky, of course. Having said that, the In Nomine reprint in September will be hardback, priced at $26.95, with new cover art. (I'd tell you about it, but I haven't seen it yet.) If you go to order it at your Friendly Local Game Store (or, for that matter, Warehouse 23), make sure the store owner is aware that it has a new stock number (3324) and a new ISBN (1-55634-mumble). - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 07:02:52 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Hell TV - --On Tuesday, July 4, 2000 2:06 PM -0400 Douglas Muir wrote: > >> Yessir, here at Hell's Most Wanted, even the >> Light of Heaven won't stop us! > > Oooh. > > I'm flashing on a diabolical version of "Survivor"... > That would be all of hell, I believe. Except that there's no million dollars, and more rats. Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 07:01:56 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Shards - --On Tuesday, July 4, 2000 11:54 AM -0600 ben wrote: >> his nascent madness. The Lucifer that God created (henceforth >> referred to as "Lucifer Prime") is no more. The largest shard, a >> Balseraph, > > Lucifer Prime and his arch-foe, the Metatron. > > Ben > Thank you for getting there before I did. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("With Vapula as StarScream...") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 07:08:17 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron > Okay could somebody please fill me in on the Seraph or [Ofanite] Voice of God > here? > (He was both a pillar of flame and the speaker of God's truth so it's a > tough call-though I think cannonically he's a Seraph...or was til Lucifer > offed him) Metatron was a Seraph. (http://www.incyclopedia.org/ch277.html) > Exactly when did Lucifer kill the poor boy and what was his word? So far on > the latter end I've heard the Covenant, the Voice of God, and Truth. Metatron was killed during the Fall, if memory serves, as Lucifer was leaving Heaven. His Word has been given alternately as The Voice Of God and Humanity, that I've seen, though neither of these are canon or appear in any book. > Was he like the Khalid to Judaism or is that Michael? There isn't really an analogue to Khalid for any major religion except Catholicism, IIRC. > Some thoughts on this would be appreciated as his replacement will be > turning up in the story that I'm running fairly soon (beware ye forces of > hell the three headed serpent) ...wasn't a many-headed serpent one of the Forms of the Beast? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:11:47 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron Charles Phipps wrote: > > Okay could somebody please fill me in on the Seraph or Ofanim Voice of God > here? He was both a pillar of flame and the speaker of God's truth so it's a > tough call-though I think cannonically he's a Seraph...or was til Lucifer > offed him, > > Exactly when did Lucifer kill the poor boy and what was his word? So far on > the latter end I've heard the Covenant, the Voice of God, and Truth. > > Was he like the Khalid to Judaism or is that Michael? In IN, I'm not aware there is a patron of Judaism, though David is occasionally suggested. In myth, it is Michael is the principality of Israel, and is supposedly the High Priest of the Temple in the heavenly Jerusalem. > Some thoughts on this would be appreciated as his replacement will > be turning up in the story that I'm running fairly soon (beware ye > forces of hell the three headed serpent) Again in myth (I'm using Ginsburg's _The Legends of the Jews_), the patriarch Enoch was lifted up to Heaven and turned into the angel Metatron by God. He fills a role approximately akin to God's prime minister, and is called the angel of the presence. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 07:54:49 -0500 (CDT) From: edg@pyramid.sjgames.com Subject: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles Or, the Continued Tales of the Angel McCoy One of McCoy's more interesting adventures involved convincing an Archangel to make a special breed of angel - to experiment, as it were. While McCoy was not an Archangel and therefore couldn't make angels on her own, she thought she might have the formula down, and so she took some "improvisations" over to Jean for analysis. Jean's response is said to have been, "It's so crazy, it just might work." But McCoy's formulas were off, just that tiny bit that Bad Speling causes, and Things Happened in the process of creating this new batch of celestials. McCoy now had on her hands - for Jean told her, "These are your brainchildren - get them out of my lab!" - several breeds of Angle. There were three, in fact. Acute angles, originally patterned after Mercurians, were the ones focused on Ethereal Forces. They were wildly perceptive as well - though they had next to no Willpower. They were excellent spies, often very small and able to fit in where nobody else could. Their perception allowed them to see whatever was going on, and their keen intellect allowed them to piece together what was important and what wasn't. Obtuse angles, based on Malakim, had Corporeal Forces in spades - but not much else. Large and menacing, the Obtuse angles were basically celestial clubs: if you pointed them at something, and said "Hit that," they did. If you asked them to speak on the works of Socrates, however, your usual response would be "Um... he's dead, right?" Finally, Right angles were created in the mold of Seraphim. Their forte was Celestial Forces, and their skill was to speak the truth. All the time. Even Seraphim got tired of these creatures, whose general idea of conversation was "The sky seems blue from the Earth, to human eyes, when it's not cloudy. Likewise, grass seems green to human eyes, and dirt seems brown to human eyes. That dog just barked. My, you're tall in comparison to me." Obviously, this could get annoying after a while - especially considering that they tended to mutter minor Truths under their breath when they weren't actually addressing anyone. If someone could get them to pay attention, they were a valuable resource, but doing that was a feat in and of itself... No more Angles have been created since McCoy's first incident; Jean refuses to let her back into his laboratory if she has anything even /resembling/ plans for new angels. The originals can still be found wandering around Heaven occasionally, though for the most part they stay hidden. Occasionally, though, a soul wandering through Heaven will hear whispers of the Truth as they pass by the Halls of Progress - and it's not always the Symphony talking... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:57:14 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles >"These are >your brainchildren - get them out of my lab!" - several breeds of Angle. > >There were three, in fact. [snip] > >Acute angles, originally patterned after Mercurians, were the ones >focused on Ethereal Forces. >Obtuse angles, based on Malakim, had Corporeal Forces in spades - but not >much else. >Finally, Right angles were created in the mold of Seraphim. >No more Angles have been created since McCoy's first incident; Well, that's a shame. There's only one kind left. The Reflex Angles, based loosely on Ofanim. * * * * * "I'm addicted to stress that's the way that I get things done if I'm not underpressure then I sleep too long and I hang around like a bum and I think I'm going nowhere and that makes me nervous..." Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:23:05 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles edg@pyramid.sjgames.com wrote: > But McCoy's formulas were off, just that tiny bit that Bad Speling causes, > and Things Happened in the process of creating this new batch of > celestials. McCoy now had on her hands - for Jean told her, "These are > your brainchildren - get them out of my lab!" - several breeds of Angle. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! You are just, just, just WRONG. =) =) =) :::) [Keep it up!] - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:00:38 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Cherub/Djinn resonances question >> And perhaps a Cherub of Jean could do a piece of software or a >>packet. >Do you have any idea what happens to packets inside the network? ("Oh no! >My attuned is headed into a ATM network and is being shredded!") ROFL! Thanks for the imagery! I needed the laugh... Ki, at home sick today, vainly attempting to think ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:30:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles Jason Schneiderman wrote: > >No more Angles have been created since McCoy's first incident; > > Well, that's a shame. There's only one kind left. The Reflex > Angles, based loosely on Ofanim. Well, there are the 180-degree Straight Angles, based on Elohim. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:09:41 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything >About humans who reach the higher plains. >I've always ran it that they add to a big ol' mess of resources (Forces, >Essence and all) that is God. God is between all of them, as more souls >join God he can pay more attention to more things and can bring more power >to bear. Angels are partly tied into this network, which is what provided >God with power before humans. God as an immense muiltiprocessor using angels and human souls as CPU's??? My head now hurts. ki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:38:30 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Hardbacks At 2:23 AM -0500 7/6/00, Andrew Hackard wrote: >At 09:18 PM 05/07/00 -0400, Bull wrote: > >Having said that, the In Nomine reprint in September will be >hardback, priced at $26.95, with new cover art. You're releasing... a new *hardback?* Damn you! DAMN YOUR EYES! I do not need a *third* IN Core Book! Damn yooooooooooooou! (Sigh. Some people fish, buying several hundred or thousand dollars worth of equipment. My collection hobby is no stupider than that.) - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:42:46 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron At 7:08 AM -0400 7/6/00, EDG wrote: > > Okay could somebody please fill me in on the Seraph or [Ofanite] Voice of >God >> here? >> (He was both a pillar of flame and the speaker of God's truth so it's a >> tough call-though I think cannonically he's a Seraph...or was til Lucifer >> offed him) > >Metatron was a Seraph. (http://www.incyclopedia.org/ch277.html) Well... maybe. According to the timeline, the Metatron, Voice of God, is never *seen,* and is only assumed to be a Seraph by the other angels. I tend to think of the Metatron as something Other, like Yves and Kronos only moreso. (And, if the Metatron is unseen, how do we *know* that Lucifer killed him? No body, and only the word of a Balseraph? Of course, at the time no one really understood what a Balseraph was or how he worked, him being so new. And, there are some who claim God spoke through the Metatron to pardon Michael and recall Uriel. But then, that makes the whole Fall fuzzy and no one likes to make the *Fall* fuzzy, do they?) - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:47:05 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Mor Bad Speling: The Angles >Jason Schneiderman wrote: >> Well, that's a shame. There's only one kind left. The Reflex >> Angles, based loosely on Ofanim. > >Well, there are the 180-degree Straight Angles, based on Elohim. Considered that. But a straight angle is a line, and lyin' is the province of Balseraphs. So a Straight Angle would be, paradoxically, closest to falling. Jason * * * * * "I'm addicted to stress that's the way that I get things done if I'm not underpressure then I sleep too long and I hang around like a bum and I think I'm going nowhere and that makes me nervous..." Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:56:51 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron At 8:11 AM -0400 7/6/00, neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: >In IN, I'm not aware there is a patron of Judaism, though David is >occasionally suggested. In myth, it is Michael is the principality of >Israel, and is supposedly the High Priest of the Temple in the >heavenly Jerusalem. Again, going from the GMG, there is no patron of Judaism, though it was a respected religion from the point of view of most of the Archangels (with Laurence being a notable exception, as always). The Holocast shocked many among the Host, and several Archangels have begun to take an interest in patronizing God's Chosen. That's the Canon Word. My *campaign* word is that since that time, David, Dominic, Marc and Michael have all begun taking an active interest in the affairs of the Jews. David for the solidarity of their communities, Dominic in the name of the Torah and the Hebrew Laws, Marc both for traditional connotations about the Jews and moneylending (not all of which were perjorative or incorrect, of course) and because theirs is a culture largely based on equitable Trade, and Michael because of admiring their spirit and willingness to stand up against sometimes impossible odds in the name of their people. (And win.) I suspect that sooner or later, each will advance a candidate for an appropriate Word. - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:05:10 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Hardbacks At 10:38 AM -0400 7/6/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >(Sigh. Some people fish, buying several hundred or thousand dollars >worth of equipment. My collection hobby is no stupider than that.) I somehow forgot to add the line "and then claim they're saving money when they catch two perch." I didn't mean to imply all fishing is innately stupid. Innately *boring* to my brain? Yes. Stupid, no. - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:20:39 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Again, going from the GMG, there is no patron of Judaism, though it > was a respected religion from the point of view of most of the > Archangels (with Laurence being a notable exception, as always). Huh? Laurence doesn't have a problem with Judaism. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:18:05 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron At 10:20 AM -0500 7/6/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: >> Again, going from the GMG, there is no patron of Judaism, though it >> was a respected religion from the point of view of most of the >> Archangels (with Laurence being a notable exception, as always). > >Huh? Laurence doesn't have a problem with Judaism. My mistake then. I thought he didn't actively agitate against Judaism, but that he yearned for the Jews to be brought into the Christian fold (Catholic by preference) along with every other heathen in humanity. That's what I meant, although it may have come out poorly. - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:27:10 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron > I tend to think of the Metatron as something Other, > like Yves and Kronos only moreso. Kronos? I agree that Yves is something Other, and I would certainly see Metatron as something Other (although he *is* usually presented as a Seraph), but Kronos is just a "standard" DP with a great Word (IMHO). And Canon says he's a Balseraph. > if the Metatron is unseen, how do we *know* that Lucifer killed him? > No body, and only the word of a Balseraph? Well, Metatron didn't show up many times since. Plus, I guess the anihilation of such a powerful being must have left some ripples in the Symphony, and other Archangels certainly could detect that. Not speaking about the Disturbance created by the conflict. Even if no one SAW Metatron die, many probably FELT it. > And, there are some who claim God spoke through the Metatron > to pardon Michael and recall Uriel. Even if it wasn't the original Metatron, I don't see why God couldn't create a new Voice that'd be the exact duplicate of Metatron's soul. Did anyone on the list write any adventure seed about the return of Metatron? The Voice of God secretly coming back on the Corporeal Realm, walking the Earth with Eli, working on some crazy plot. The two Archangels, a few players and Lucifer in a donut-shop, negociating some kind of treaty... Just a thought flying through my head, can't really put my finger on it. I could work on it in the train on my way back home, if only I had a 1 hour trip... :) Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:47:34 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Adventure Seed: Face/off Basically looking over the rules for vessels and the creation of angels...I thought to myself there was considerable potential for abuse here. After some thought I came up with an intriguing idea that I think is a very good plot seed. *** Dominic (or one of his triads) contacts the PC's and asks them to aid in the apprehension (though there is considerable hintage that killing will be just as good) of an Outcast if not actually fallen angel of Eli....someone even the Judge of Judges views as a "dangerous cruel being". Dominic has been waiting for this momment with some trepedation and is thus well prepared; having believed all along that eventually one of Eli's trusted servitors would lose it in a big way. The angel in question is worded to which makes the operation all the more important. It will look something like a Black ops operation to take out a country truth be told. However when the PC's inevitably find the angel first they discover surprisingly that he is a well mannered, soft spoken, and truly one of the more enlightened angels one will find in the world. Sort of all the best attributes of his choir (he's a very old seraph) with some uncharacteristic humility. Dominic's group isn't going to stop to listen anytime soon and brings the big guns against the figure in all attempts to stop him...as they've just lost a few of their members to him. The Truth of the matter is quite complex as the worded angel is the angel of forgetfulness (or some similarly abstract word) and has joined his master Eli in "exile" on Earth to promote it; thus having removed him from Heavenly politics a long time....however a Demon Prince he wronged long ago (Malphus works best) has not forgotton him and has made a very elaborate plan to destroy him by the very forces he's so faithfully served-and thus drive a serious wedge between Dominic and Eli. The Demon Prince has done this by creating a Balseraph that is a perfect corruption of the angel in question's looks, beliefs, and choir. Supplying him with a vessel identical to the one that the angel has inhabited for a number of years, he has sent the Balseraph to cause as much damage as possible to the surounding area. Given the power and ruthlessness of the being, he's more than a match for the angels he's met and has no qualms about disrupting the Symphony-that's exactly what he's supposed to do in a big way. If things weren't already complicated enough (the Balseraph's resonance is quite easy to make things seem to be what they aren't); Malphus may just throw in a few vessel bound demons that look exactly like the PCs to make his revenge all the sweeter on his foe. Needless to say it's a Shedim's paradise plot, even if no shedim are actually involved (unless some of the PCs are soldiers....) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:37:16 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron Laurent wrote: > > Did anyone on the list write any adventure seed about the return of Metatron? The Voice of God > secretly coming back on the Corporeal Realm, walking the Earth with Eli, working on some crazy plot. > The two Archangels, a few players and Lucifer in a donut-shop, negociating some kind of treaty... > Just a thought flying through my head, can't really put my finger on it. I could work on it in the > train on my way back home, if only I had a 1 hour trip... > :) > Actually, I did do something similar with the message, Secret Weapon. Here is the reprint: > What is in Laurence's Doomsday Vault? Nobody knows this but Laurence [aka The > Powers That Be]. Here is my speculation, though. It is IMC and IMHO, so feel > free to disagree or to improve it as you wish. > By some freakish circumstance, the Cherub found himself in Laurence's Doomsday > Vault. It took the Cherub a while to realize where he was exactly. But what he > saw there was enough to make him cheer out loud, thus attracting the attention > of the guards, who called the Commander, since they were obedient Sword-thanes > and their orders forbid them to enter the Vault. Laurence arrived, entered, and > saw the Cherub, kneeling, looking up, enraptured in thanksgiving to God for what > he had seen. > "So now you know." > The Cherub, struck mute by the sight and the realization of God's Power and > Wisdom, could only nod. Laurence let him go his way, and the Cherub never spoke > a word of what he had seen. Indeed, the Cherub never spoke or wrote another > word, until The Day came. No one ever heard from him of the glass casket. He > never spoke the Name which was the only word or sigil or decoration of any sort > on the casket. "Metatron". And no one ever heard from him of how the casket was > completely empty, with not even a favorite weapon or artifact of The Voice of > God laying within it. And never did he speak of the Heart made not of crystal, > but of purest Light from the Highest Heaven pulsating on the far side of the casket.... [snip .sig] > ps. Wonder who will be more surprised on the Day > of Judgement, the Angels or the Demons, when the > corpse of Metatron, on which Lucifer built his {Miltonian} > Hell gets up, shakes off all the Principalities, Princes, > Demons, and Damned Souls, stands with his Feet in > Hell and his head somewhere above the firmament of > Lower Heaven, and says with The Voice Of God, with > absolute finality, "All right, enough is enough." and > proceeds to empower the Hosts [you think Michael > is powerful now? Sibling, you ain't seen NOTHING > yet!!] and cut them loose to kick Hell's a$$, as The > Voice cuts through and cuts off all Infernal Songs. Do with it what you will. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "Buildings burn, people die, but real love is forever." --Sarah, "The Crow" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:42:14 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Hardbacks At 3:23 -0400 7/6/00, Andrew Hackard wrote: >Having said that, the In Nomine reprint in September will be hardback, >priced at $26.95, with new cover art. It's also going to be black & white interior, isn't it? That will make the original books more of a collectors' item, I guess.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:53:50 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Hardbacks At 21:18 -0400 7/5/00, Bull wrote: >Anyways, I was just interested in seeing if I could get some info on the In >Nomine Hardbacks that were done when the game first came out. I know they >were a limited edition, but do we know how many of these were printed, and >in general how hard they are to find now and how much they usually go for? I don't know the exact numbers, but I think there were a few thousand of each type (white and black). You might check the Pyramid archives on the SJGames website; look around Feb-April 1997, which is when they came out. There may have been a number given then, when the hardcovers were released. I checked the Daily Illuminator, there was nothing there on the number of copies. If you want one of those, rather than the new 2nd printing hardcover, then you'll probably have to try someplace like eBay. And I wouldn't bet on it being cheap, since I think the new hardcover will be black & white interior, rather than color. I'd expect the original edition to get bid up, due to that. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:57:38 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> The Metatron From: "Laurent" > > I tend to think of the Metatron as something Other, > > like Yves and Kronos only moreso. > > Kronos? I agree that Yves is something Other, and I would certainly see Metatron as something Other > (although he *is* usually presented as a Seraph), but Kronos is just a "standard" DP with a great > Word (IMHO). And Canon says he's a Balseraph. No, it says he is believed to be a Balseraph. But his expanded writeup in "Heaven And Hell" says he is the counterpart to Yves in that he is the embodiment of the Fate of the Symphony. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:02:08 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 1:02 -0400 7/6/00, James Bearse & Brandy Badenoch wrote: >Just got my GURPS:IN copy, and wanted to comment. I really appreciated the >revised flavor text at the beginning of the choir/band sections. I'm sure Elizabeth will appreciate that -- she's been alternately proud of them and then worried about whether they worked well. I hope there was still enough flavor text to convey the feeling of the game - -- I've been concerned that we had to sacrifice too much of it to fit in all the basic rules and background material. (Not to mention art. I think it's one of the most art-light GURPS books ever produced. Following the IN page layout format, rather than the normal GURPS maintext/sidebar format, helped some, I think.) > and I >would recommend them for inclusion in any IN revision or new edition that >ever gets put to paper. I believe Elizabeth has been thinking of doing just that, when the opportunity arises. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:05:23 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Hell TV At 7:02 -0400 7/6/00, Marc Bowden wrote: >> I'm flashing on a diabolical version of "Survivor"... > > That would be all of hell, I believe. > > Except that there's no million dollars, and more rats. No rats, just demonlings. Which is worse.... Just hearing the discussions of Survivor (we don't watch much broadcast TV) makes me think it's some Nybassian's wet-dream. Though they probably stole the idea from some human, and took the credit.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:08:58 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything At 10:09 -0400 7/6/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: >God as an immense muiltiprocessor using angels and human souls as CPU's??? Let's just hope he's not running Windows 0000.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:03:10 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Khalid and Faith Reading over my copy of Superiors 3 (Foolish mortal! How could I leave it in a hot car during my tennis lesson! Yves warned me not to! oh well) I was consistantly disturbed by Khalid's defination of Faith-and frankly though I'm not sure it has any affect on whether or not he would have fallen or not....it might have some serious reprocussions in the way he does his business. Khalid defines Faith as "trusting in something with no evidence". While I'm sure Webster would agree with him...I find this an extremely poor defination of Faith. Moses after all proved to the Israel with miracles a thousand times over his proof, Jesus (whom Khalid recognizes as a prophet) healed and ressurected, while Mohammed himself was a preacher and not a miracle worker-the aspects are not absent from the religeon. Shouldn't Faith be defined by the Islamic Archangel as "A close rapport with the Almighty"? Or perhaps "Trust in a Being" or "Love of the Being"? "I have Faith in you?" Doubting Thomas was only a fool because he doubted the miracle worker after he had been shown so much of heaven's miracles. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:27:42 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith At 4:03 PM -0400 7/6/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >Khalid defines Faith as "trusting in something with no evidence". While I'm >sure Webster would agree with him...I find this an extremely poor defination >of Faith. > >Moses after all proved to the Israel with miracles a thousand times over his >proof, Jesus (whom Khalid recognizes as a prophet) healed and ressurected, >while Mohammed himself was a preacher and not a miracle worker-the aspects >are not absent from the religeon. Well, in In Nomine Canon, the Bible is a book. And we're not sure what's accurate and what's not. And to be honest, in real life it's the same thing. If you say that Moses proved to the Israelites the truth of Faith with miracles, you're accepting that that actually happened. That Moses was in fact a holy man with "a close rapport with the Almighty" to reference your suggestion. To accept that, you need to place your trust in something you have no evidence for or against. You're accepting it on Faith. Frankly, miracles are easy. The entire Book of Genesis can be rendered on computers so exactly you would swear you were seeing documentary footage of God creating the Heavens and the Earth, which you could then testify to. And anyone can *claim* anything. I can claim that my dog Buddy is an Ofanite of Novalis bound in a cock-a-poo vessel. I can even show you proof -- he's better at finding paths than we are and he moves at bullet speed, never slowing down. That's not evidence of God, of Angels, or of anything other than "quick, smart, loving dog," however. Further, do not forget that Moses's miracles were not compelling. Pharaoh had a mage who could turn a stick into a snake. What amazed them all was Moses's snake could consume the Sorcerer's. Miraculous things could seem to take place all around. *Faith* requires accepting that which you have no evidence. You mention Jesus and his miracles -- but remember he refused to perform those miracles for Herod. The point isn't proof. The point is *belief.* Khalid's core religion has, as a basic tenet, the submission of one's self completely to Allah. This is an act of Faith -- not because it makes a person closer to God or gives them a rapport, but because it's an act where you put your trust in a God you have no evidence of. You believe in it. In Peter Pan, faeries exist. You can see them. But *faith* in faeries is needed or they die. >Doubting Thomas was only a fool because he doubted the miracle worker after >he had been shown so much of heaven's miracles. Mm. Thomas was a skeptic. But in the end he believed. And through it all he followed. Judas, on the other hand, lost Faith. - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:44:07 -0500 (CDT) From: edg@pyramid.sjgames.com Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Charles Phipps wrote: > Khalid defines Faith as "trusting in something with no evidence". While I'm > sure Webster would agree with him...I find this an extremely poor defination > of Faith. Khalid's /Word/ is Faith. Webster reflects common opinion, and common opinion defines Words. You seem to be using Jack Chick's definition of proof. See below. (In retrospect, this is likely to be an inflammatory post. In the interests of everybody I ask that you please refrain from sending flames to the List, instead sending them directly to me, if you must send them at all. Well-thought-out responses are one thing; "you offensive b*st*rd" is another, and should be kept private.) > Moses after all proved to the Israel with miracles a thousand times over his > proof, Jesus (whom Khalid recognizes as a prophet) healed and ressurected, > while Mohammed himself was a preacher and not a miracle worker-the aspects > are not absent from the religeon. Moses spent forty days (?) atop a mountain and came down with a pair of stones with runes chiseled in. He followed a tornado that sometimes luminesced. He smacked a rock and opened up an undiscovered spring. Jesus had some servants bring in some wine in the dark of night. He had a very, very convincing stunt double. He secretly imported fish and bread to feed the people. Granted, these things are unlikely, but not impossible. There is no proof - - there can be no proof, at this point, without resorting to "The Bible proves it's true!" - and still people fervently believe that these things are true. Belief without proof is faith. > Shouldn't Faith be defined by the Islamic Archangel as "A close rapport with > the Almighty"? Or perhaps "Trust in a Being" or "Love of the Being"? Not necessarily. How do you define "close"? Too narrow, and Khalid stops being an Archangel. Too broad, and "close" stops meaning anything. And they overlap, too, which is the hard part. Why is "trust" different than "belief without proof"? I don't know that my employer is going to pay me on Fridays; although I have past experience to verify that, perhaps the company is about to go bankrupt. I still trust that they will pay me. Belief without evidence. Why is love a good measure of faith? I love my Crysta, but I have no faith that she'll finish the dishes. ^_^ > "I have Faith in you?" "I believe, without any evidence supporting it, that you will perform what I expect you to perform." > Doubting Thomas was only a fool because he doubted the miracle worker after > he had been shown so much of heaven's miracles. That's why he was /called/ a fool, anyway. - -EDG sorry, Crysta ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1701 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.