From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 6 21:07:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA32148 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:07:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA22353 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:06:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:06:15 -0500 Message-Id: <200007070206.VAA22353@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1702 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1702 In this digest: IN> In Nom Survivor Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine IN> Khalid and Faith IN> Metatron Re: IN> Hardbacks Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Hardbacks Re: IN> Metatron IN> S3 (Re: Khalid and Faith) Re: IN> Khalid and Faith IN> George (Re: Khalid and Faith) Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> George (Re: Khalid and Faith) Re: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything Re: IN> Concerning Novalis IN> Angel of Medicine (No writeup. Really.) IN> "We're Going Over The Wall. Pass It On." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:00:16 -0700 From: "Matthew W." Subject: IN> In Nom Survivor >> > >> Yessir, here at Hell's Most Wanted, even the >> Light of Heaven won't stop us! > > Oooh. > > I'm flashing on a diabolical version of "Survivor"... > That would be all of hell, I believe. Except that there's no million dollars, and more rats. << Hmmm, reminds me of a quote from a game of mine. Malakite: "I'm sorry, sir, but you have.." "been voted off zee island" - -- = Matthew K. Webb = = Cam # Pending = = MIB #3875 = | Lead GM - In Nomine LARP Austin | | http://members.aol.com/sumitr/index.html | ===================================================== "Koalas look cuddly, but I am lead to understand that they're actually irritable, solitary beasts who do not want belly rubs. What kind of mocking God created creatures with poofy ears and big black noses that don't want belly rubs?" - L. Fitzgerald Sjöberg ===================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:09:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 12:02 AM -0500 7/6/00, James Bearse & Brandy Badenoch wrote: >[...] and I >would recommend them for inclusion in any IN revision or new edition that >ever gets put to paper. Mostly up to SJ, I think. >Kudos, Beth. thanx. (would be more effusive, but today is crankyday, And i have a baby crying on my shouldre) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:29:26 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Khalid and Faith >Well, in In Nomine Canon, the Bible is a book. And we're not sure >what's accurate and what's not. And to be honest, in real life it's >the same thing. Depends on the way you look at it-Yves might describe the book as I describe it-a Chronicle of the Physical, Moral, and Spiritual development of a cultural group. Though unfortunately your tapping into the problem of Referee pernogative. In Nomine is great because you can set the tone truly as tongue and cheek or not as you want. (finally got my gamemasters guide) However it matters that some things do need to be defined as important. David after all was the Harpist and Sheperd and Soldier who would be King's patron. Ergo he was interefering awfully in David's affairs. Moses did do stuff and while Khalid MIGHT have done them all (ever wonder if Moses married into the Celestials? Maybe Khalid was his brother who was always in the background)...there is the issue of trust. However there *IS* evidence. * Khalid I doubt would believe so feverently in Islam if he was constantly screwing with the Israelites to help old Moses prove a point. Though 40 years in the desert does seem like the thing to make a man wonder if God was punishing Kh....great now I'm in a circle... It just seems strange to me that Khalid would feel the need to restrict his angels the way he does for the defination he gives. It's rather like the fascical reason why the Babel Fish proves God doesn't exist-because it was proof God did. >If you say that Moses proved to the Israelites the truth of Faith >with miracles, you're accepting that that actually happened. That >Moses was in fact a holy man with "a close rapport with the Almighty" >to reference your suggestion. And God might actually be Eli....or Yves...or George the guy who cleans up Dominic's cathedral after hours...or God might be a mass delusion Yves crafted. Everything in the cosmos might be a product of Yawheh the boy sleeping in the "real world's" dream. However what evidence there is does exist. >To accept that, you need to place your trust in something you have no >evidence for or against. You're accepting it on Faith. What your suggesting to me, as a scientist though is that in the Celestial world in Khalid's view-there is no such thing as conclusive proof whatsoever....thus everything can be doubted til you draw the line. >That's not evidence of God, of Angels, or of anything other than >"quick, smart, loving dog," however. Save perhaps God made him that way for you...no wonder Eli and my Seraph left Heaven for Earth. >*Faith* requires accepting that which you have no evidence. You >mention Jesus and his miracles -- but remember he refused to perform >those miracles for Herod. The point isn't proof. The point is >*belief.* Herod believed Jesus could do the things he could, Pilate did as well according to his reports to Caesar (quite flattering on J-said he's more a friend than the Jews to Rome-you can read them in the library of Congress). It was reverence for them. >>Thomas was a skeptic. But in the end he believed. And through it all >he followed. >Judas, on the other hand, lost Faith. Yes. I wonder if Judas dissolved or even now suffers in Hell? >EDG wrote >You seem to be using Jack Chick's definition of proof. As a scientist I recognize you need to have Faith for anything resembling a universe to exist coherently. Evidence must exist but admittadly there is only something that makes God seem more probable as well as gravity or even existence. >Granted, these things are unlikely, but not impossible. There is no proof >- - there can be no proof, at this point, without resorting to "The Bible >proves it's true!" - and still people fervently believe that these things >are true. >Belief without proof is faith. Save unless someone (like myself) claims to feel God's presence every day in their life and his voice in my heart. of course you might say that's concience (no difference really for it's all connected) or I'm insane. Wow the Balseraph's are working overtime tonight... My main arguement is that you believe that Webster's dictionary defines a word-while Gluttony is stronger because people ascribe more ideas to it....that's because it's a demonic word. It is impossible to lie in Heaven and I'm fairly sure that when you get a word it's fairly well written out for you in the Celestial tongue what you've got. No matter how you slice it. If your word is "Pokemon trading cards" in Heaven (admittadly it should be a diabolical word) your not going to be able to gain control over a country if you somehow convince 6 billion inhabitants of the world to rename the Earth that. You'd have to request the Seraphim Council to amke you the Word of "the Big Blue object that is 3 spaces off from Gabrielle's glowing thing" I guess Khalid's defination of the Word might be "belief without evidence" but I rather prefer the Symphony defination to be "Conviction that something is Right" Of course that's my campaign. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:40:44 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Metatron >Metatron was killed during the Fall, if memory serves, as Lucifer was >leaving Heaven. His Word has been given alternately as The Voice Of God and >Humanity, that I've seen, though neither of these are canon or appear in any >book. > Well if he was killed in the Fall I'd suggest he probably never saw the Jews. (If that's true...then who was the pillar of Fire that led them to the Red Sea and how'd he get so involved in all this Jewish Lore?) However that depends on when exactly you placed the fall to happen. Anyone got a cannonical date on this? 1:) Before the Universe (10 billion years or so) 2:) When Humanity and Adam were created (1 million years I'd say) 3:) Sometime before the end of the Hebrews? (Satan acting as divine tester in Job) I know there's probably no cannonical date but as I have a Seraphim whose history was he was created by Eli to help correct Lucifer and the rest of the Fallen during the Fall...it's a fairly important number....anyone got any suggestions? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:46:48 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Hardbacks At 10:38 AM 06/07/00 -0400, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >You're releasing... a new *hardback?* > >Damn you! DAMN YOUR EYES! I do not need a *third* IN Core Book! Damn >yooooooooooooou! God, I love that reaction. :-) Note the price, BTW -- this will be significantly cheaper than the "limited edition" angelic and demonic hardbacks. In fact, it's only a couple of bucks more than the original softback book was. - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:05:47 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith >Reading over my copy of Superiors 3 (Foolish mortal! How could I leave it in >a hot car during my tennis lesson! Yves warned me not to! oh well) At least you can bloody get it already! This is the problem with the Internet, we Brits get to hear all about how Americans got to buy RPG products, see films, etc before us - and you get virtually everything cheaper!!!!!!! Any takers for the Demon of Transatlantic Delays and Weird Price Hikes Despite the Strength of the Pound Sterling? Chris Lee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:15:32 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Hardbacks At 03:42 PM 06/07/00 -0400, Walter Milliken wrote: >It's also going to be black & white interior, isn't it? I'd have to check, but I believe so, yes. - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:36:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Metatron At 6:40 PM -0400 7/6/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >However that depends on when exactly you placed the fall to happen. Anyone >got a cannonical date on this? 22,625 BC. This is in the GMG. >I know there's probably no cannonical date but as I have a Seraphim [..] Seraph. Seraph is the singuler. Seraphim is the plural. Keep me sane -- use the correct plurals and singulars. (Yes, seeing it wrong too many times _does_ affect me. I actually said "a Malakim" in a live game the other weekend. Mind, I then caught my nitpickers in "a Habbalah" twice thereafter, but after laborously training myself to the right plurals, I am mightily peeved about the flub. Which means that I'm going to go for the Nitpicking Essence. Expect all incorrect plurals and singulars to be Nitpicked mercilessly. After all, I _need_ that Essence to feed to the Impudite Princess of Cute!) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:38:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> S3 (Re: Khalid and Faith) At 11:05 PM +0100 7/6/00, Christopher Lee wrote: >>Reading over my copy of Superiors 3 (Foolish mortal! How could I leave it in >>a hot car during my tennis lesson! Yves warned me not to! oh well) > >At least you can bloody get it already! > >This is the problem with the Internet, we Brits get to hear all about how >Americans got to buy RPG products, see films, etc before us - and you get >virtually everything cheaper!!!!!!! Well, for various reasons, there was a frotzup and the British authors in S3 got their comp copies from the printer before I got mine... Does that molify? O:> - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:27:12 -0400 From: "BDP" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith >Why is "trust" different than "belief without proof"? I don't know that >my employer is going to pay me on Fridays; although I have past experience >to verify that, perhaps the company is about to go bankrupt. I still >trust that they will pay me. Belief without evidence. > >Why is love a good measure of faith? I love my Crysta, but I have no >faith that she'll finish the dishes. ^_^ > >> "I have Faith in you?" > >"I believe, without any evidence supporting it, that you will perform what >I expect you to perform." In short, Faith is a die-hard belief in the object-of-Faith's *performance* and not *ability*. Demons *believe* that God exists and has certain powers (well, most of them do). But they do not have *faith* in God's actions or benevolence. Khalid, however, does. His Submission To God means that he believes utterly that all that happens happens because God explicitly wills it so ... This differs somewhat from other Archangels, who might believe that God is simply more removed and does not actively will anything but lets the Symphony move on on its own. Or something like that. BDP Purely IMHO, of course. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:48:52 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> George (Re: Khalid and Faith) At 6:29 PM -0400 7/6/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >And God might actually be Eli....or Yves...or George the guy who cleans up >Dominic's cathedral after hours... No, no, George the Janitor is on the IOU campus, not Dominic's Cathedral. Unless you're doing IN IOU. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:45:28 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith > Depends on the way you look at it-Yves might describe the book as I describe > it-a Chronicle of the Physical, Moral, and Spiritual development of a > cultural group. Or he might describe it as "That book what humans seem to put a lot of time and effort into it." YMMV. > Though unfortunately your tapping into the problem of Referee pernogative. > In Nomine is great because you can set the tone truly as tongue and cheek or > not as you want. Well, actually, in In Nomine Canon, the Bible is a book. Like he said. GMs can modify whatever they want; it's still a book in canon. YMMV. > However it matters that some things do need to be defined as important. > David after all was the Harpist and Sheperd and Soldier who would be King's > patron. Ergo he was interefering awfully in David's affairs. Um, what? David's a nifty name, but the Biblical David and the Archangel of Stone aren't the same person, I think. YMMV, though. > Moses did do stuff and while Khalid MIGHT have done them all (ever wonder if > Moses married into the Celestials? Maybe Khalid was his brother who was > always in the background)...there is the issue of trust. According to the Bible, yes, Moses did stuff. He went up on a really big rock and came down with two small rocks a month and a half later. He hit a rock and water came out of it. He made a stick do a really good snake impression. Doesn't mean any of it actually happened - either IRL or in In Nomine. YMMV, of course. > However there *IS* evidence. Where? > * Khalid I doubt would believe so feverently in Islam if he was constantly > screwing with the Israelites to help old Moses prove a point. Though 40 > years in the desert does seem like the thing to make a man wonder if God was > punishing Kh....great now I'm in a circle... Well, either that or Islam holds Moses to be a prophet just as much as Judaism and Christianity do. (I think. I may be making unfounded statements about a perfectly innocent world religion.) YMMV, though. > It just seems strange to me that Khalid would feel the need to restrict his > angels the way he does for the defination he gives. It's rather like the > fascical reason why the Babel Fish proves God doesn't exist-because it was > proof God did. Do you mean fascist or farcical? I don't think the first one fits, although it's a very good epithet to apply to make people respond angrily and violently to you. Do you remember the passage in question? I believe it runs something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," said God, "because proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." Again. If you prove something, there's no faith involved. But YMMV. > And God might actually be Eli....or Yves...or George the guy who cleans up > Dominic's cathedral after hours...or God might be a mass delusion Yves > crafted. Everything in the cosmos might be a product of Yawheh the boy > sleeping in the "real world's" dream. Um... and? YMMV. > However what evidence there is does exist. Where? > What [you're] suggesting to me, as a scientist though is that in the Celestial > world in Khalid's view - there is no such thing as conclusive proof > whatsoever....thus everything can be doubted [till] you draw the line. Khalid is far from a scientist. Let's put it this way: I'm looking at my computer. I know that it is there. I can see it, touch it, hear it, smell it, taste it (if I'm weird enough). I don't need faith to know that my computer is there. When I can no longer see my computer, I have faith in its power to stay where it was. I believe very strongly that it's still there. I can't see it, hear it, or feel it, but my faith keeps it there in my mind. If it were not there, I'd be very surprised. Thus is the nature of faith. YMMV. > Save perhaps God made him that way for you...no wonder Eli and my Seraph > left Heaven for Earth. That's really kind of an irrelevant argument, although YMMV. > Herod believed Jesus could do the things he could, Pilate did as well > according to his reports to Caesar (quite flattering on J-said he's more a > friend than the Jews to Rome-you can read them in the library of Congress). > It was reverence for them. Wouldn't you call that faith in Jesus's abilities? YMMV. > As a scientist I recognize you need to have Faith for anything resembling a > universe to exist coherently. Evidence must exist but admittadly there is > only something that makes God seem more probable as well as gravity or even > existence. Um... did you get the reference I made? > Save unless someone (like myself) claims to feel God's presence every day in > their life and his voice in my heart. of course you might say that's > concience (no difference really for it's all connected) or I'm insane. Wow > the Balseraph's are working overtime tonight... The Bible says it's true! Sorry. I could just as easily say that Zeus and the Muses are dancing a chorus line on my spleen, but it wouldn't make them exist any more strongly for anyone but me. YMMV. > My main arguement is that you believe that Webster's dictionary defines a > word-while Gluttony is stronger because people ascribe more ideas to > it....that's because it's a demonic word. It is impossible to lie in Heaven > and I'm fairly sure that when you get a word it's fairly well written out > for you in the Celestial tongue what you've got. This is true. Khalid's Word is, in shorthand, Faith. In longhand, it's Belief Without Evidence. cf. the GMG. Novalis is the Archangel of Flowering Plantlife, IIRC.' > No matter how you slice it. If your word is "Pokemon trading cards" in > Heaven (admittadly it should be a diabolical word) your not going to be able > to gain control over a country if you somehow convince 6 billion inhabitants > of the world to rename the Earth that. You could have the population of the planet so associate the Earth with Pokemon trading cards that /every time/ people thought of Pokemon trading cards (except in extreme circumstances), they thought of the Earth. At that point, you'd still be the Angel of Pokemon trading cards, but you'd probably be an Archangel, and you'd represent the Earth itself. YMMV, tho'. > You'd have to request the Seraphim Council to amke you the Word of "the Big > Blue object that is 3 spaces off from Gabrielle's glowing thing" Or "the Earth". Which is kind of silly. YMMV. > I guess Khalid's defination of the Word might be "belief without evidence" > but I rather prefer the Symphony defination to be "Conviction that something > is Right" YMMV. > Of course that's my campaign. Of course. - -EDG ymmv, don'tcha know ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:52:49 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith At 6:29 PM -0400 7/6/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > >Well, in In Nomine Canon, the Bible is a book. And we're not sure >>what's accurate and what's not. And to be honest, in real life it's >>the same thing. > >Depends on the way you look at it-Yves might describe the book as I describe >it-a Chronicle of the Physical, Moral, and Spiritual development of a >cultural group. Well, no. In Canon, the Bible is a book. You can diverge from that if you want -- your game, your rules -- but the core of it is that the Bible's a book. If Dominic can't explain the yeses and nos of Jesus's divinity/prophetic nature/anything, there's no reasonable way for the Bible to be a Canon Chronicle of anything. (In part because what we see of as the Bible is pretty inconsistant from even the first translations and collations of the original Greek, Hebrew and other texts. In fact, Biblical textual "evolution" is a specific scholarly study.) >Though unfortunately your tapping into the problem of Referee pernogative. >In Nomine is great because you can set the tone truly as tongue and cheek or >not as you want. Absolutely, without problems. >However it matters that some things do need to be defined as important. >David after all was the Harpist and Sheperd and Soldier who would be King's >patron. Ergo he was interefering awfully in David's affairs. Um... so, David was interfering with David's affairs? My apologies, there's parsing difficulty here. >However there *IS* evidence. You have evidence? Jeez, stop wasting your time with the IN forum and get on the phone to the Vatican! >It just seems strange to me that Khalid would feel the need to restrict his >angels the way he does for the defination he gives. It's rather like the >fascical reason why the Babel Fish proves God doesn't exist-because it was >proof God did. Khalid's Word is *Faith.* If you give Mankind proof, you're not asking them to make that leap of Faith. You're quantifying the unquantifyable. You stop being an Angel and Minister of the Lord and become SuperSeraph, the Truthteller , fighting a war against the dark horde, custom made for action figures. It becomes mundane, in other words. And that denies everything that Khalid is about. >And God might actually be Eli....or Yves...or George the guy who cleans up >Dominic's cathedral after hours...or God might be a mass delusion Yves >crafted. Everything in the cosmos might be a product of Yawheh the boy >sleeping in the "real world's" dream. > >However what evidence there is does exist. My point stands. There is no evidence that Moses ever performed a single miracle. There is no evidence that Jesus did any of the things or said any of the phrases attributed to him. To quote Heinlein, in an age and among two different peoples with tremendously good recordkeeping (the Jews and the Romans), we can't definitively state that Jesus even lived, much less that he preached, that he was crucified, or that any miracles took place. We don't *know* anything. The Evidence doesn't exist. That doesn't invalidate Faith. Not in the least. *You* have no proof that Moses ever walked into the desert. You just have folk tales told about him, and belief. And that's what Khalid's Word is all about. > >To accept that, you need to place your trust in something you have no >>evidence for or against. You're accepting it on Faith. > >What your suggesting to me, as a scientist though is that in the Celestial >world in Khalid's view-there is no such thing as conclusive proof >whatsoever....thus everything can be doubted til you draw the line. Noooooo... I'm suggesting that proof is irrelevant to faith and perhaps even antithetical to it in Khalid's world-view. Khalid has no room for the scientific method in his ways. That's Jean, across the hall, and Jean's defined in Canon as having no religious views, beyond an acceptance that religion has the potential among mortals to be objectively good. > >That's not evidence of God, of Angels, or of anything other than >>"quick, smart, loving dog," however. > >Save perhaps God made him that way for you...no wonder Eli and my Seraph >left Heaven for Earth. No, that's not *evidence.* I didn't see God make Buddy. God didn't send me a bill for materials. Buddy simply is. Any conclusions I make about Buddy's origins are entirely based on what I know about the breeding habits of dogs and upon my own system of beliefs and faith about what may or may not be a higher power in the universe. "Perhaps God made him that way for you" is meaningless in an argument about evidence versus faith. It's not even a hypothesis. It's semantically the same as saying Buddy was found under a cabbage leaf. >Herod believed Jesus could do the things he could, Well, *I* believe Jesus could do the things he could -- I mean, by definition he could, since we defined he could. But if you mean Herod believed Jesus could perform miracles -- I would say from the Gospels that he was *willing* to believe, but not to accept Jesus as the Messiah and the King of the Jews without convincing proof, and Jesus was unwilling to perform sacrements on command as entertainments for Earthly Princes. > Pilate did as well >according to his reports to Caesar (quite flattering on J-said he's more a >friend than the Jews to Rome-you can read them in the library of Congress). And a few other places, last I knew. > >>>Thomas was a skeptic. But in the end he believed. And through it all >>he followed. >>Judas, on the other hand, lost Faith. > >Yes. I wonder if Judas dissolved or even now suffers in Hell? I suppose it depends, in IN terms, if Judas actually achieved his Fate or not by betraying Christ. After all, *without* Judas turning Christ in, Christ could not have achieved his Destiny and redeem mankind, according to Christian Theology. If that Destiny was not true, then Judas's act may or may not have pushed him to Fate. If it was... It's an interesting question. Mm -- there may be an adventure seed in this... the reincarnation of Judas... > >EDG wrote >>You seem to be using Jack Chick's definition of proof. > >As a scientist I recognize you need to have Faith for anything resembling a >universe to exist coherently. Evidence must exist but admittadly there is >only something that makes God seem more probable as well as gravity or even >existence. I'm... *really* not parsing that sentence, or how science relates to it. >Save unless someone (like myself) claims to feel God's presence every day in >their life and his voice in my heart. The key word there is "claims." You may have all the evidence you need, and that's fine. Indeed, I envy you the certainty of your convictions and the comfort you take from that presence. But it doesn't prove anything to me, per se. I don't know you have a presence, or even if you believe that. I just know what you say. (Note I am not debating your faith -- that's yours.) >My main arguement is that you believe that Webster's dictionary defines a >word-while Gluttony is stronger because people ascribe more ideas to >it....that's because it's a demonic word. It is impossible to lie in Heaven >and I'm fairly sure that when you get a word it's fairly well written out >for you in the Celestial tongue what you've got. And when it's translated into English for the game, we have to assume the term that's translated is going to be as close as possible for the purposes of the game. If Khalid were the Archangel of A Personal Closeness To God, he would be written up that way in the books. He's the Archangel of Faith. Ergo, the intent is his Celestial Word matches as closely as possible to the English. >No matter how you slice it. If your word is "Pokemon trading cards" in >Heaven (admittadly it should be a diabolical word) Marc may disagree with that. >I guess Khalid's defination of the Word might be "belief without evidence" >but I rather prefer the Symphony defination to be "Conviction that something >is Right" Um... That last term works perfectly fine, actually. That's not what you said in your last post. >Of course that's my campaign. And in it, you're the guiding force. - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:58:19 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> George (Re: Khalid and Faith) At 7:48 PM -0400 7/6/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 6:29 PM -0400 7/6/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >>And God might actually be Eli....or Yves...or George the guy who cleans up >>Dominic's cathedral after hours... > >No, no, George the Janitor is on the IOU campus, not Dominic's Cathedral. > >Unless you're doing IN IOU. So... what are the tenets of faith in IN IOU? "Give unto Caeser what is due Caeser, give unto God what is due God, and give the Archdean 10% of both." - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:29:37 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> A theory on the nature of God/the Universe/Everything >>God as an immense muiltiprocessor using angels and human souls as CPU's??? >>Let's just hope he's not running Windows 0000.... If I were to go with the above theory IMC (which I won't, btw), he'd be running the GOD operating system. Not Mickeysoft, nor Novell, nor Linux, nor CPM, nor any other operating system currently or previously known to humankind. This vaguely reminds me of the Babylon 5 line (to paraphrase) that "we are the universe trying to understand itself." While the above computer analogy makes for an interesting discussion, my campaign needs diety that is a bit more concrete. Ineffable, beyond human and angelic understanding, yes. But concretely a diety with a Plan behind this whole experiment, also yes. If I were to try for anything beyond that, my mind would blue screen... Ki Disclaimer #1: No, I do *not* want to start a thread on what operating system the IN GOD uses. Disclaimer #2: Yes, I called it Mickeysoft. I also make a living supporting Mickeysoft products. No, I do not want to get into a discussion about whether or not Linux is a better operating system or whether Microsoft should be split up or not. It was just a comment. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:44:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:06:06 +0100From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: IN> Concerning Novalis >All right, my two pennies worth. >Does one imagine Michael ever fleeing personally from >a battle, without severe trauma to his personality, >nature, and Word? Or Laurence acting less than >honourably in person? Or David ever attacking first? >For the same reasons, Novalis never gives up on a >person. Ever. Just as the other Archangels symbolise >different Words and different aspects, she stands >for eternal forgiveness and mercy and love, the love >which goes beyond human understanding, the >forgiveness which really _can_ forgive and pardon >anything and everything, however cruel, however evil, >and however "unforgivable". I can groove to that, actually. As an embodiment of the forces of joy, peace and forgiveness, the above fits her perfectly (and has a felicity of style, to boot). :) But I've been thinking of how her essential angelic nature, coupled with her Word, might give her a more ... primal ... nature at times. After all, she is a Cherub, and as such, can be counted on to be devoted to her Word and what it represents in a way that humans can only dimly see. And her Word, while superficially associated with cultivation and order, is essentially _wild_. Novalis has very hidden depths to her, and very possibly nobody really wants to disturb them. >Novalis will always reach out to them, and give them >that thousandth chance, however many times she has >been hurt, waiting for the time when they will >honestly say, "I was wrong, and I am sorry," and turn >to the light. Which is how I see her, as well. I just wonder about the essential motivation for that attitude. I suspect that there's a strong element of inhuman patience, well mixed with the nigh-infinite capacity for love and forgiveness. Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Fellow Traveller __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:50:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Angel of Medicine (No writeup. Really.) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:02:04 PDTFrom: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. >>>Speaking of Kosher, who would you have as the Angel >>>of the Kashrut? I'm thinking Seraph of Judgement....> >- -- Casca> >>Elohite of ... hmm, who _is_ the Superior most >>interested in medicine? >Nah. it should be an angel of purity -- maybe even >Uriel himself. >Kosher/Kashrut _means_ purity. The opposite to kosher >is treif, which means foul. >jo Sorry: I was thinking of the health aspects (a LOT of Mosaic dietary law makes excellent sense in a culture without germ theory or refrigeration), not the religious. Should've been clearer. :) Still, would all of you stick the Angel of Medicine under Jean, or somewhere else? Or is it already addressed somewhere else? Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Bedside Manners __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:06:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> "We're Going Over The Wall. Pass It On." Well, it's that time again: time for another totally-whacked Word-Bound with a bizarre choice for Superior, just to show it can be done! (And, hopefully, even be more or less believable!) However, tonight there's a wrinkle. I seem to remember that this particular Word may be already called in canon. Alas, alack. :( Of course, there's no _writeup_ or anything, and seeing as my favorite pasttime is to writeup Heretical Superiors _anyway_, you all still get subjected. Enjoy, don't, send killer death penguins to my house. Well, maybe not the last*. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Dominic IS One of the Good Guys, You Know. At Least IMC, Anyway. *INC-friendly, though pretty much everything I do is unless I actually say something otherwise. And, on that self-serving note, I give you... Erich Malakite of Judgement Angel of Prison Breakouts Suggested Word-Forces: 5 Celestial Forces: 5 Strength: 8 Agility: 12 Ethereal Forces: 4 Intelligence: 7 Precision: 9 Celestial Forces: 5 Will: 12 Perception: 8 Vessel: human male/3, Charisma +2 Role: Generic Type/6, Status 1 (Erich, as mentioned below, tends to go through a lot of Roles) Skills: Chemistry/1, Climbing/1, Computer Operation/1, Detect Lies/2, Driving/1, Electronics/1, Emote/1, Escape/3, Fast-Talk/2, Fighting/3, Knowledge (Penology/2, Architecture/1), Languages (Chinese/3, English/3, Russian/3), Large Weapon/1 (Club), Lockpicking/1, Lying/1, Move Silently/2, Ranged Weapon/2 (revolver), Running/2, Savoir faire/1, Survival (arctic/1, mountain/1), Swimming/1, Tactics/1, Throwing/1. Songs: Charm (All/2), Harmony (Corporeal/2), Healing (Corporeal/1), Light (Celestial/2), Motion (Celestial/2), Shields (Corporeal/2). Angel of Prison Breakouts: Erich gets a +2 on his check digit for any roll that is directly involved with helping an unfairly imprisoned person get free. Attunements: Malakite of Judgement, Malakite of Creation, Incarnate Law, Divine Destiny, Proficiency (Fighting), Passage Oaths "Never suffer an evil to live, if it is my choice." "Never surrender or allow myself to be captured by the forces of Hell." Note that Erich, because he is voluntarily placing himself in a position to rescue others, and can personally escape at any time, isn't really being 'captured' when he plays prisoner. "Never let a person suffer from an unjust imprisonment, if it is my choice." "Always strive to make the punishment fit the crime." For as long as prisons have existed, people have found themselves undeservedly within them. Sometimes it's because they have unpopular opinions, or belong to the wrong race/culture/religion, or because somebody falsely accused them. Sometimes they should have been there, but received too hard a sentence for their crime. And sometimes, somebody just gets extremely unlucky. Even in the most thorough and fair system of human law, you inevitably end up with those who punished for things they didn't do. Dominic absolutely _loathes_ it when that happens. Erich is one of Judgement's rare independents. He's a celestial troubleshooter, sent to specific situations to break out of confinement the most deserving. His usual methodology is to take over a carefully constructed Role/6, commit a suitably heinous crime (there's almost always a Hellsworn or acceptably nasty criminal out there somewhere who was due to be eviscerated anyway), get caught, and get sent to jail. Dominic's agents on Earth, with their connections to judicial systems, find it simplicity itself to send Erich precisely where he needs to go. Once in the prison, work camp or whatever, Erich locates his target, befriends him or her, and organizes an escape. Usually, he takes the time to grab anybody else that deserves it: the more, the merrier, is his motto, and Heaven could always use the recruits. His escapes range from the subtle to the spectacular, depending on how repressive the local legal system is. Subtle escapes involve the apparent death of all the escapees: spectacular escapes usually involve press conferences and UN tribunals. It should also be noted that Erich is a Malakite. A friendly enough Malakite, with a lot of sympathy for humanity, but if he comes across someone who isn't being punished enough for his crimes, he'll be more than happy to rectify the matter. Erich also enjoys a good prisoner of war breakout, especially if one side is noticeably better than the other. He first got his Word for his work in helping Union soldiers escape from Andersonville, and spent most of World War II in one or another Nazi Stalags. Lately, he's been involved in busting loose legitimate political prisoners, but is just as likely to be the one tapped to go get the five Soldiers of God caught stuffing a Calabite's vessel into an incinerator. There are many, many Archangels that want Erich for their very own. Michael and Janus, in particular, routinely offer him a job working for them. He's so far managed to politely refuse such offers without offending anyone, trying his best to imply that Dominic wouldn't be too thrilled with him switching Superiors. Of course, this _is_ true, but the fact is that Erich likes serving Judgement. If he served anyone else, he might have to save those who didn't really deserve it. As it is, as long as he accepts the occasional cross-Word assignment (and accepts the rewards, although keeping the Choir Attunement from Eli took some fast-talking), everybody's happy enough. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1702 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.